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How to get more people out in 0.0?

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Rei Toai Faaip De Oiad	Posted - 2006.09.28 08:19:00 - [31] Edited by: Rei Toai on 28/09/2006 08:19:11 Originally by: Noriath Disallow research on or manufacturing of tech 2 blueprints in Empire stations. Allow alliances to recruit agents from Empire corps to operate at their outposts. Improve infrastructure in 0.0 by allowing players to create automatic processes that create essentials like skillbooks, containers, shuttles etc. Improve defense structures in 0.0 so the main threat to an alliance is not random gankers but full scale invasions, and they can let in the occasional neutral. Create a system that allows alliances to set stations to not grant landing permission if a person carries certain items so they can let traders in without people starting to stash POS fuel and fleetships... Make running POS less of a pain in the neck by allowing alliances to create all fuel types, and not force them to import half of them from empire. Allow people to build more varied structures by basing ice type off consteallations, not regions. Encourage controlling less space with stronger infrastructure instead of huge amounts of space with not a single POS in half the systems to allow more people to stake a claim in 0.0 Add planetary industry and resources only obtainable by owning systems in 0.0 and colonizing their planets. you forgot one thing: remove all people from game who think PvP stands for player vs. player ... not player vs. POS __________________________________ I don't want to talk about it I don't want to talk about it I don't want to talk about it I don't want to know.
Noriath	Posted - 2006.09.28 08:27:00 - [32] Fights amongst alliances should not be meaningless point exchanging between small ganksquads which are impossible to catch and ratters, miners and hauler which happen to not pay attention for 10 minuites, they should be acctual wars over territory.
El'Niaga	Posted - 2006.09.28 08:33:00 - [33] The OP is dead on why more people don't go to 0.0. For the average player its not worth it. Yes some people can play 8 or 9 hours a day, but the average person might only have 2 to 3 hours or less. To them they don't see losing what took them months to earn in a single trip worth the effort. CCPs efforts to nerf Empire Mission, change Empire mining will not succeed in getting more people to 0.0, all it is going to do is cause people to quit the game. As the OP pointed out these nerfs only cause new people even harder times, and cause them to take longer to earn the ISK necessary to even venture into 0.0. There are several problems with the game. There are many factors why the game doesn't work as they originally envisioned it. The simple truth is that most human beings cannot stay in a state of alertness necessary to survive in 0.0 indefinately. The stress of that impacts their real lives, thus you see many folks return to Empire even after venturing forth. I've seen a lot of folks say join one of the big alliances to get 0.0 access. So you can be a face in the crowd? That's not how folks want to be, they want to be able to go with their own friends and corps. The principle reason is cost. T2 equipment and ships costs to much. The typical t2 ship costs 10 times the amount you can insure it at. That makes it very hard for the casual player to absorb any such loss. Kali is not necessarily going to help with that situation. They are attempting to add more t2 BPOs in but in such a way that they are more inefficient than the current ones. If you want to see the game open up, its time to kill the monopolies. Put on the open market the BPOs for all the t2 equipment and the t2 ships. Once the price comes down on these items such that the average player can not only buy the stuff, but also have a reasonable chance to replace it if they lose it, you'll see more folks venturing forth. It isn't a lack of balls, its common sense that keeps most of them out of 0.0. They realise they don't have the time to earn the ISK to be able to go back before they are going to lose their ship. More avenues of travel making fewer bottlenecks would also assist in getting people out more quickly. Complicating matters is those that continously try to war in Empire those trying to build up and possibly someday move towards 0.0. Those wars keep them from ever getting to a point they can consider even trying to move to 0.0. As I said there are many factors this is just some of them. In short you need to level the playing field. You have to have it such that in a reasonable amount of time people can afford to fly and replace ships that can survive in 0.0, you have to make egress easier, if you don't people will continue not to move to 0.0. If you try to force it by changing the security status of various systems, you'll only anger more people and risk destroying the client base it has now.
Sergeant Spot Black Eclipse Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.09.28 08:38:00 - [34] 0.0 is mostly claimed space. Those who own it (by right of conquest) put effort into preventing others from using THEIR space. If you want to use their space, you either have try and sneak by, and realize that mice do get caught by successful cats.... .... or ..... You can bring a Battle Fleet and make it into "YOUR" space. snip This type of comment has no place in a signature, please remain courteous - Pirlouit
Noriath	Posted - 2006.09.28 09:07:00 - [35] Edited by: Noriath on 28/09/2006 09:08:08 Sneaking into an empires space and operating out of it with near impunity is pretty easy if you aren't above using a few cheap tricks. All you need is a few deep safe spots, a hand full of carriers and alts you can log out in that system and theoretically you can mine, rat or do whatever else you want to in the middle of an alliance. With the carriers you can transport material in and out of their space easily. The only thing they can possibly do is guard the resource you're trying to access, but they can't do that 23/7, if you're diligent you can get to them. They can't permanently get rid of you, and I would go so far as to claim that most alliances have bigger problems then trying to kill nomads who don't atack them, but just mine or rat unless provoked. Although this may sound like an interesting way to play, the amount of profit you could make from this would never exceede what you can earn just by whoring missions in empire though.
cheru nemo nobis impune lacessit SynchronizerZ	Posted - 2006.09.28 10:47:00 - [36] Last time I checked, NPC 0.0 regions like Syndicate had plenty of systems with stations with factory slots. I went there solo with a few ammo/drone bpcs and made quite some isk hunting Serpentis in the systems around. Yes, there are people who want to kill you, but the good old eye on local and some safespots really help to stay alive (killing them first helps also sometimes ;p). For hauling or travelling a scout (friend o.o) might be a good idea. If you prefere dull nonstop isk making without any thrill or interuptions you can always go back to empire and do some missions, or join a big 0.0 alliance with "secured" space... :D ................................................. been there done that
Lazy8s	Posted - 2006.09.28 13:00:00 - [37] Edited by: Lazy8s on 28/09/2006 13:05:05 Alright, I just woke up so don't think I forgot about this thread! :p I'll try to respond to as many people as possible but I don't want to spend an hour finding the names so if it sounds like it's aimed at you it probably is. ;) I am an FPS guy. In fact eve doesn't have enough action for me so I play CS, BF2, etc now and then just to get more PvP action. To me the worst part of the game is fighting NPCs or any other type of non-thinking ship. The draw to me of 0.0 IS getting blown up and blowing people up. Even if my balance is 0isk I'll be happy as long as I can afford another ship. Alot of people talk about "living" in 0.0. How do you do this? I was under the (obviously incorrect) impression that all selling and buying took place in RENs/Jita/What-have-you in highsec hubs. Is there an economy in 0.0? I mean, can I go to 0.0, rat for drops and actually sell them in 0.0 without coming back even with a POS? To the guy that looked my up in game tyvm. :) I was hoping that by not posting where I wouldn't be met today by 100 griefers that read this looking to catch me. :p You're spot on though and that's what I get for posting with my main I guess. You're even right about who killed me finally: Forsaken Empire. Why they blew me up since we're both friendly with ratel is a little beyone me, I don't have a grasp on the politics yet. Anyways better luck next time I guess. I know 0.0 is about teamwork and I do have the time to invest in it honestly, but I find it's pert near impossible since everyone and their mother thinks you're a spy. Perhaps what's needed for people to get out is more of an introduction than all or nothing. I spent weeks ratting in 0.1 space but it's not nearly the same as 0.0...well, it is more now that BoB is gatecamping (thx guys!). Anyways, no idea how that would happen but it's a thought. For everyone saying "join a large corp/alliance" that better be an offer or quit sayin it. No offence but most large alliances either aren't recruiting or you need 10mil SPs+ to get in. If it IS an offer contact me in game, I really want to see what the 0.0 side of life is. I play plenty every day and dying is second nature to me by now, I just need some help to get going in the right direction. Playing eve and not going to 0.0 is like going to college and not going to parties. Sure you'll drink too much sometimes but it's worth it the times you get to take the girls home. That goes for anyone, if you think you can help contact me in game, some people collect seashells or stamps, I collect friends. I always am up for a chat. Anyways, thanks for the suggestions so far!
Luke Pubcrawler	Posted - 2006.09.28 13:07:00 - [38] Been playing 3 months or so and am just stating to ventrure into 0.0. In many ways I am lucky as my empire home is convenient to Providence and my parent Corp is CVA friendly. So with friendly locals, a station I can use only 2 jumps into safish 0.0 and corpmates around I have about as easy an intro to 0.0 as any relaive newb can get. My problem lies in getting into 0.0. I will run the risks of the 0.0 systems whist ratting , I can cope with that. The problem is with the bottleneck getting in and out. These chokepoint and the normal gatecamps on them make casual use of 0.0 horribly risky. Now if you are a 0.0 veteran you are used to this - you don't make short trips into 0.0, you live there, hunt there for days on end. Most new players won't be in a position to do that, especially if they are less lucky than me and dont have an easily accesible station. A player entering 0.0 for the first time like the OP wants to make a trip in to see what its like - unfortunately he is almost guarenteed to have to run thro some bitterly contested chokepoint to do it. Most new players first 0.0 system is often one of the hottest spots on the map - talk about being thrown in at the deep end. For 0.0 to attract more people there needs to be a relatively painless way for them to get access to it and feel at least moderately secure whilst they find their feet. Nerfing empire wont do it - make 0.0 more attractive by increasing its accessibilty. To do this increase the amount of newb friendly 0.0 close to empire. 1. Create more jumpoints from Empire to 0.0 - have several close together to prevent chokepoints. 2. Reclassify some border sytems as "semi 0.0" Empire owned. and install a few sentry guns on the 0.0 side of the gate to lowsec to prevent gatecamps. Then ensure there are are several jump points out of this system into 0.0 proper. In addition fit sentry guns to the 0.0 side of existing jumpgates connecting to empire. 3. In systems 1 or 2 sytems per region, close to empire setup more npc stations - and ensure each of these systems has 2 or 3 jumpgates leading to it. Agin but sentry guns both side of these gates to help prevent camping If you want more players in 0.0 give them an attactive way in. Decrease the number of chokepoints and gatecamps on the empire- 0.0 border and provide a little bit more shelter for those taking their first steps into bandit county. Eventually at least some will move away from this border region into the remainder of 0.0 - which what the 0.0 community and CCP both want. Before people complain too loudly, I am not suggesting turning huge swathes of 0.0 over to this - maybe 2 or 3 entries/"semi 0.0" systems to 0.0 per region and a couple of near empire npc stations.
Ishquar Teh'Sainte Euphoria Released Euphoria Unleashed	Posted - 2006.09.28 13:18:00 - [39] living in 0.0 means mostly - you enter empire only for buying/selling stuff ... most of your time you do your own thing in 0.0 (like hunting npcs, players and so on) ... the markets in 0.0 are quite rare for outsiders of big alliances .. only in NPC regions you might find something you could call an open market (due to docking rights in player owned stations the trade is quite limited there) another thing in 0.0 - if two groups have the same friends it doesn't mean necessarily that both sides have to be blue to each other. btw - not sure if i'm talking bull** now - but i recommend you .. look in the recruitment forum for a pvp corp - as far as my perception goes FTC isn't the place you're looking for (though i might be wrong and they might have some PvPers ) and don't forget - you don't have to join a big corp or alliance to be successful/have fun in 0.0 - all you need is a good team (you like flying and dying with ) P.S.: i won't start searching for you in geminate .. but if we meet each other by accident i might** shoot you ___________________ -Skellibjalla- Life is a garden of perceptions. Pick your fruit.
Rayvonuk	Posted - 2006.09.28 14:04:00 - [40] 2 words. CHOKE POINTS
darkjon	Posted - 2006.09.28 14:04:00 - [41] Originally by: Phoenix Lonestar This has been discussed ad nauseum. If CCP wants to get more people into 0.0, they need to get rid of chokepoints. The end. /signed Vastly increase the routes to 0.0 and the problem disappears. A well organised camp will still get their jollies if they split into smaller groups and cover multiple gates, whereas the odds of getting through are vastly increased for the normal solo player. I don't want any mechanics changed or nerfed, I think any move along those lines will be counterproductive. What will be interesting to see, will be the solar system defenses proposed for Kali and how they affect this issue.
Novan Leon	Posted - 2006.09.28 14:09:00 - [42] I've been running around low security/no security areas in an Exquerer for days; this is my first time in 0.0 and I have yet to run into a situation that I couldn't handle. Hint: The starmap is your friend, check which systems have had ships destroyed in the last hour and avoid those with a high count. - Hey you! Obey the fist!
Lazy8s	Posted - 2006.09.28 14:18:00 - [43] Yeah on my way out I looked and there were 0 ships killed and only a couple of people. I guess I have to check before every jump? I was probably their first ship of the night considering I had just come through 10min earlier and there was no camp.
Crumplecorn Gallente Aerial Boundaries Inc. Interstellar Starbase Syndicate	Posted - 2006.09.28 14:27:00 - [44] Originally by: Lazy8s Alot of people talk about "living" in 0.0. How do you do this? I was under the (obviously incorrect) impression that all selling and buying took place in RENs/Jita/What-have-you in highsec hubs. Is there an economy in 0.0? I mean, can I go to 0.0, rat for drops and actually sell them in 0.0 without coming back even with a POS? There is an economy in ISS outposts Worst comes to worst store your stuff in anchored secure containers and haul it to empire in large batches. But, having always had access to an outpost with a refinery, empire is for me just a place to go to get stuff that isn't available on my local market. ---------- Nerf Caldaro!
evistin Multiverse Corporation	Posted - 2006.09.28 14:38:00 - [45] As with RL, people will only go once there is an infrastructure in place to support it. A steady supply of goods, a framework in which they can find advice/support And the lack of being killed on sight. The way alliances have set up 0.0 (CCP fault) is they control entire regions, but devleop only a select view systems. If they devleop it to the point where they operate like Empire space, more people will come. ----------- Management and Leadership û The Eve-online Guide
NoNameNewbie Caldari Free-Space-Ranger Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2006.09.28 15:02:00 - [46] Originally by: Noriath Edited by: Noriath on 28/09/2006 08:21:50 Disallow research on or manufacturing of tech 2 blueprints in Empire stations. Allow alliances to recruit agents from Empire corps to operate at their outposts. Improve infrastructure in 0.0 by allowing players to create automatic processes that create essentials like skillbooks, containers, shuttles etc. Improve defense structures in 0.0 so the main threat to an alliance is not random gankers but full scale invasions, and they can let in the occasional neutral. Create a system that allows alliances to set stations to not grant landing permission if a person carries certain items so they can let traders in without people starting to stash POS fuel and fleetships... Make running POS less of a pain in the neck by allowing alliances to create all fuel types, and not force them to import half of them from empire. Allow people to build more varied structures by basing ice type off consteallations, not regions. Encourage controlling less space with stronger infrastructure instead of huge amounts of space with not a single POS in half the systems to allow more people to stake a claim in 0.0 Add planetary industry and resources only obtainable by owning systems in 0.0 and colonizing their planets. Make those the basis of tech 3 items that send do-nothing-win-eve-with-no-risk tech 2 producers packing. good ones
Swindy AirHawk Alliance Interstellar Starbase Syndicate	Posted - 2006.09.28 15:04:00 - [47] Edited by: Swindy on 28/09/2006 15:06:08 Create insurance for modules and implants Make insurance on T2 ships and modules actually useful Eliminate the dependancy on gate-to-gate and docking bookmarks Reduce the number of choke points Give players a way to detect and avoid gate camps
NoNameNewbie Caldari Free-Space-Ranger Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2006.09.28 15:05:00 - [48] Originally by: Rei Toai remove all people from game who think PvP stands for player vs. player ... not player vs. POS dude ... ganksquads arent pvp ... i've heared there will be comming a bot soon that gangs 10 ppl and ganks lone ppl somewhere ...
Eve Hel	Posted - 2006.09.28 15:22:00 - [49] its been sayd many times, but guess it doesn't hurt to repeat yet again the problem is the choke points, if you really wanted more ppl in 0.0 do something about all the LAME choke point campers those are the ones to blaime for so many ppl staying in empire. you can call the ppl without balls or those with normal sence, what ever they/we are choke points is what limits the flow of empire ppl to 0.0 thats the fact you may not like it or something els but fact is: do something about those Cpointds and more ppl will come to 0.0 and the whole join an allience and its np...... hehe well as others have sayd some of us have a RL too meaning we can't play all day btw it look very much like space as we know it now is simple way way way too small for all of us space should bee that if you flew out deeply it would bee more amasin to actually run into others than actually not too as it is now EVE space is a little pocket it neeeds to be alest 10 times bigger for the present player base size,,, i offcause know this a problem or even imporseble hehehe
Aurora Ming	Posted - 2006.09.28 15:46:00 - [50] The issue is simple really, you have a group that live in 0.0 that want targets and shoot anything no matter what the target is flying. On the other hand you have a group of people that like to be somewhat solo or small group because they have limited time or just don't want to be told what to do by a larger group. When this second group tries to get through a choke point or even tries to find a dead end somewhere where hopefully they don't get bothered they normally get chased down by the first group and killed. There is no solution, you can ad more choke points but then you would just have more groups camping the gates. -John
Cipher7 Dark and Light inc. D-L	Posted - 2006.09.28 15:48:00 - [51] Originally by: Ephemeron getting the player base more drunk and worked up is probably the best way 0.0 is rewarding enough and fun enough already. What's missing are balls on most players. Yeah cuz it takes alot of balls to play a video game.
Cipher7 Dark and Light inc. D-L	Posted - 2006.09.28 15:52:00 - [52] As far as how you can get to 0.0 to rat. Join an alliance. Theres tons of em hiring. Sheesh. I don't understand why you would want to rat in 0.0 without joining one. What's the point?
Eve Hel	Posted - 2006.09.28 16:07:00 - [53] Originally by: Aurora Ming The issue is simple really, you have a group that live in 0.0 that want targets and shoot anything no matter what the target is flying. On the other hand you have a group of people that like to be somewhat solo or small group because they have limited time or just don't want to be told what to do by a larger group. When this second group tries to get through a choke point or even tries to find a dead end somewhere where hopefully they don't get bothered they normally get chased down by the first group and killed. There is no solution, you can ad more choke points but then you would just have more groups camping the gates. -John
Lazy8s	Posted - 2006.09.28 17:09:00 - [54] Originally by: Cipher7 As far as how you can get to 0.0 to rat. Join an alliance. Theres tons of em hiring. Sheesh. I don't understand why you would want to rat in 0.0 without joining one. What's the point? ...I'm in an alliance. there are lots of reasons to go without one though, 1v1 pvp ratting mining....oh yeah everything an alliance does... don't get me wrong I'm not saying 0.0 should be safe for everyone to solo in, just that there is no reward for taking the risk to figure it out for a new player.
Hesed	Posted - 2006.09.28 17:13:00 - [55] It's really not impossible to force your way into 0.0, even if people refuse to like you. Step 1) You have 3 alts. Train all of them. Step 2) Open your map, look at factions and determine the NPCs you want to target. Look for npc stations. Step 3) Get some BPCs. Even the BS ones are only 1M isk usually. I recommend buying a preferred ammo bpo, and a t1 frig bpo for backup. A couple indy bpcs, and a BC bpc ought to be adequate. They will even be ferried up on separate trips to spread the risk. Step 4) Get all alts into T1 frigates with travel setups and useful gear in holds and head out to the chosen area. There are even agents out there if you want to focus on those. I recommend the agents over the belt ratting initially. Step 5) Spread out your alts. Visit clone stations first. Whenever one is camped by locals, BoB's latch-key kids out here in Blood Raider space for me. Drop your bpcs at the factory stations, and focus on the agents at the refinery stations. Tada, you are now an inneradicable nuisance in npc station space and you don't even have to be nice to people. Alternately, you can talk your way into 0.0, but it probably won't make you happy in the end. Unless it does, in which case you probably aren't the type that wants to run or improve a corp and can disregard the previous. It will get kindof old once all your chars are in BS unless you really really like solo pvp. Then you really need to join a corp, or recruit provided you can bribe or confuse people to look past the fact that they still refuse to like you.
Yukon Cornelius Caldari Digital Fury Online	Posted - 2006.09.28 17:23:00 - [56] Edited by: Yukon Cornelius on 28/09/2006 17:27:17 Originally by: Airdorn 0.0 is for the big boys. If you want to solo it, you have to be very careful and do it like one of the responders here said, with giant containers and DT. /me yawns Spent months in 0.0 with IRON alliance. Big boys? No bigger than anyone else, on average. I was able to solo quite well in lonely corners using a giant container and parking a hauler in a well located safe. The problem with 0.0 is you can't get there without travelling through some chokepoint somewhere. Hauling loot and ammo back and forth along only one path isn't conducive to anything approaching reasonable gameplay. It's a gratuitous 'gimme' to the pre-teen gank mentality. There's 400 routes for me to enter Indiana, and that's if I stay on paved roads only... Until there's an equal abundance into 0.0, I'll never be spending any serious time there again.
Nanobotter Mk2	Posted - 2006.09.28 17:51:00 - [57] Heh, why is it when this comes up every time the answer is for the empire dwellers wanting to break into 0.0 need to be the ones with the balls of steel willing to take big losses? LAst I checked it is supposed to be the people living in 0.0 whom are supposed to have the balls and take looses yet it is the other way around because they all do big group hugs humping a gate nightly to secure a region that is obviously larger than they are truly able to secure. This is all thanks to the redicules bottlenecks, and the safety of gate camping. Sorry what needs to happen is making camping gates a risky job that takes balls, and unplugging og the the chokepoints so that living in 0.0 also takes balls where you have to actively clear out intrruders and deal with them, instead of the current gigantic carebearland alliances have turned 0.0 into. Alliances should NOT get the priveldge of better than empire safety to carebear along day after day ratting mioning farming complexes in 0.0, it is supposed to be risky, and be a source of constant pvp action, which currently it isnt because of the the fact currently 0.0 can be made FAR TO SAFE by any decent sized alliance.
Eve Hel	Posted - 2006.09.28 18:02:00 - [58] Edited by: Eve Hel on 28/09/2006 18:04:14 Edited by: Eve Hel on 28/09/2006 18:03:49 Edited by: Eve Hel on 28/09/2006 18:03:30 Originally by: Nanobotter Mk2 Heh, why is it when this comes up every time the answer is for the empire dwellers wanting to break into 0.0 need to be the ones with the balls of steel willing to take big losses? LAst I checked it is supposed to be the people living in 0.0 whom are supposed to have the balls and take looses yet it is the other way around because they all do big group hugs humping a gate nightly to secure a region that is obviously larger than they are truly able to secure. This is all thanks to the redicules bottlenecks, and the safety of gate camping. Sorry what needs to happen is making camping gates a risky job that takes balls, and unplugging og the the chokepoints so that living in 0.0 also takes balls where you have to actively clear out intrruders and deal with them, instead of the current gigantic carebearland alliances have turned 0.0 into. Alliances should NOT get the priveldge of better than empire safety to carebear along day after day ratting mioning farming complexes in 0.0, it is supposed to be risky, and be a source of constant pvp action, which currently it isnt because of the the fact currently 0.0 can be made FAR TO SAFE by any decent sized alliance. yep just like in RL the ones playing the most though and think they are all soo badies are usealy those with the smallest balls hehe. its the Goblin symdrone, 0.0 is ruled by Goblins,,, the sec one of them is in a situation were is 1v1 and they'r not 100% sure of wining they whine screamin like "GOBLINS" man their's way too much green in 0.0 and they bread like rabits.
Hohenheim OfLight The MadKas Alliance Vanu Space Command	Posted - 2006.09.28 18:46:00 - [59] well taking away my ability to pawn lvl4's in a carrier is not goign to force me out ot 0.0 it jsut going to make me quit eve. ----------------------------------------------
Novan Leon	Posted - 2006.09.28 19:03:00 - [60] Is it really that hard to enter 0.0 space? Grab a shuttle, set a destination and wait. If you don't want to use a shuttle then just be careful, use the map alot, and travel with others. INNOMINATE NIGHTMARE didn't seem to have any trouble. - Hey you! Obey the fist!

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