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Dregalis DeGraiden
Perkone Caldari State
0
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Posted - 2015.01.31 06:03:50 -
[1] - Quote
With the exception of the Paladin I noticed that most of the amarr T2 laser boats are vastly underpowered compared to the other races in the same class. This is mostly apparent of the ships that uses medium energy turrents where range is limited. The problems lies with the 10% reduction in medium energy turrent comsumption skill which takes up a skill slot that could be use for range or tracking. To compensate for this skill, CCP should double the damage bonus using only one skill slot as oppose to 2 slots. That would put the ABsolution on par with the rest of the Command ships and make the Zealot a more viable ship for soloing since it doesn't have a drone bay. To clarify these balance changes should be made to the Absolution and Zealot.
Absolution Command Ships bonuses (per skill level): 20% bonus to Medium Energy Turret damage 10% bonus to Medium Energy Turrent optimal range 3% bonus to Armored Warfare and Information Warfare Links effectiveness Amarr Battlecruiser bonuses (per skill level): 10% reduction in Medium Energy Turret activation cost 4% bonus to all armor resistances Role Bonus: GÇó Can use 3 Warfare Link modules simultaneously * -75% reduction to microwarpdrive capacitor consumption
Zealot Amarr Cruiser bonuses (per skill level): 10% reduction in Medium Energy Turret activation cost 7.5% bonus to Medium Energy Turrent Tracking Speed Heavy Assault Cruisers bonuses (per skill level): 10% bonus to Medium Energy Turret optimal range 10% bonus to Medium Energy Turret damage Role Bonus: 50% reduction in Microwarpdrive signature radius penalty |
Ines Tegator
Serious Business Inc. Ltd. LLC. etc.
550
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Posted - 2015.01.31 06:08:35 -
[2] - Quote
Laser boats project their damage twice as far as other turrets. If they did as much damage as you want, they would be completely OP.
Overhaul Dscan!
Make your own rules - Noobs to Null / Casual Vets Corp
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Reaver Glitterstim
Dromedaworks inc Test Alliance Please Ignore
2305
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Posted - 2015.01.31 06:41:48 -
[3] - Quote
I read the title as "Zealot and Absolution = Overpowered". I was about to say Yep.
Alternatively: have flown Zealot and...NOP
Just the same, I don't consider swapping cap cost reduction for damage to be a buff. If it makes it better, it didn't need the cap cost reduction.
CSM X: Sabriz Adoudel, Mike Azariah, Sugar Kyle, Corbexx, Jenshae Chiroptera
Highsec reform thread
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Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
16018
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Posted - 2015.01.31 06:52:21 -
[4] - Quote
All that's wrong with the Zealot is that it isn't an Ishtar
"It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his ISK/hr depends upon his not understanding it!"
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Dregalis DeGraiden
Perkone Caldari State
0
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Posted - 2015.01.31 07:02:53 -
[5] - Quote
Sigh.... I only wish to get feedback and hopefully support from the pilots who actually flown the absolution and zealot who understands what the word balance means. THe zealot has no drones so to compensate it needs the tracking speed bonus to kill frigate tacklers. The Absolution needs range to complete with the other COmmand ships that gets fallout bonuses along with the superior damage compared to the Absolution, hence my proposed changes. |
Dregalis DeGraiden
Perkone Caldari State
0
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Posted - 2015.01.31 07:08:06 -
[6] - Quote
Ines Tegator wrote:Laser boats project their damage twice as far as other turrets. If they did as much damage as you want, they would be completely OP. That's when using LARGE LASERS not medium lasers where there range and tracking are very limited without bonuses. |
Rivr Luzade
Coreli Corporation The Kadeshi
1174
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Posted - 2015.01.31 08:10:59 -
[7] - Quote
If you think the Absolution is underpowered, you should see what alliances like Shadow Cartel or SnuffBox do with them. Then come back. |
Dregalis DeGraiden
Perkone Caldari State
0
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Posted - 2015.01.31 08:21:41 -
[8] - Quote
Rivr Luzade wrote:If you think the Absolution is underpowered, you should see what alliances like Shadow Cartel or SnuffBox do with them. Then come back. Anything a Absolution can do , a Sleipnir can do 2x better. |
ShahFluffers
Ice Fire Warriors Snuffed Out
7230
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Posted - 2015.01.31 08:23:59 -
[9] - Quote
Dregalis DeGraiden wrote:THe zealot has no drones so to compensate it needs the tracking speed bonus to kill frigate tacklers. Mmmmnnnnoooooooooo... the whole point behind not having drones was to make the Zealot vulnerable to frigate tacklers at close range.
Every HAC has a glaring weakness "built in."
The Vagabond is paper thin. The Munin has a frustrating slot layout. The Cerberus is slow-ish and has a thin tank. The Eagle is has anemic damage output. The Zealot is extremely weak against fast-moving, close range targets. The Sacrilege is very slow. The Deimos is very vulnerable to energy neuts. The Ishtar's theoretical weakness is its over reliance on drones (and their weaknesses).
Dregalis DeGraiden wrote:The Absolution needs range to complete with the other COmmand ships that gets fallout bonuses along with the superior damage compared to the Absolution, hence my proposed changes. I'm looking at an Absolution fit (2 Warfare Links, 2 Heat Sinks, Focused Mediums)... its engagement envelope is between ~7 to 20km dealing ~600 to 500 dps respectively.
For a more combat focused fit... trade the warfare links for energy neuts and the Focused Mediums for Heavy Pulses. Its engagement envelope is ~8 to 23km dealing ~700 to 580 respectively.
A similarly fit Damnation has better overall range... but MUCH less dps. The Astare... more dps, MUCH less range, and less tank too. Looking through other Command Ship fits I am still failing to see how the Absolution doesn't compete with the others. In fact... it seems that the Absolution comes out ahead in many respects since it has a very good balance between defense and offense (in addition to its large range envelope to offset its lack of mobility).
Change isn't bad, but it isn't always good. Sometimes, the oldest and most simple of things can be the most elegant and effective.
"How did you veterans start?"
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Bullet Therapist
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
255
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Posted - 2015.01.31 09:11:51 -
[10] - Quote
I wouldn't mind seeing the zealot get an armor bonus instead of a cap bonus. Might make e-war heavy armor gangs a little too strong though. |
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Dregalis DeGraiden
Perkone Caldari State
0
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Posted - 2015.01.31 09:36:39 -
[11] - Quote
ShahFluffers wrote:Dregalis DeGraiden wrote:THe zealot has no drones so to compensate it needs the tracking speed bonus to kill frigate tacklers. Mmmmnnnnoooooooooo... the whole point behind not having drones was to make the Zealot vulnerable to frigate tacklers at close range. Every HAC has a glaring weakness "built in." The Vagabond is paper thin. The Munin has a frustrating slot layout. The Cerberus is slow-ish and has a thin tank. The Eagle is has anemic damage output. The Zealot is extremely weak against fast-moving, close range targets. The Sacrilege is very slow. The Deimos is very vulnerable to energy neuts. The Ishtar's theoretical weakness is its over reliance on drones (and their weaknesses). Dregalis DeGraiden wrote:The Absolution needs range to complete with the other COmmand ships that gets fallout bonuses along with the superior damage compared to the Absolution, hence my proposed changes. I'm looking at an Absolution fit (2 Warfare Links, 2 Heat Sinks, Focused Mediums)... its engagement envelope is between ~7 to 20km dealing ~600 to 500 dps respectively. For a more combat focused fit... trade the warfare links for energy neuts and the Focused Mediums for Heavy Pulses. Its engagement envelope is ~8 to 23km dealing ~700 to 580 respectively. A similarly fit Damnation has better overall range... but MUCH less dps. The Astare... more dps, MUCH less range, and less tank too. Looking through other Command Ship fits I am still failing to see how the Absolution doesn't compete with the others. In fact... it seems that the Absolution comes out ahead in many respects since it has a very good balance between defense and offense (in addition to its large range envelope to offset its lack of mobility).
And therein lies the problem with CS in general. With the exception of the Sleipnir they all need a lot of work or CCP needs to add a new branch of T2 Battlecruisers exclusively for combat. But with a few tweaks they can make CS's a viable T2 Battlecruiser fit for combat that's worth the annoying training time that is almost the same for Marauders.The absolution has the shortest engangement range which makes it vulnerable to nuets because it has no range bonus like the other CS's do. And since the Absolution is totally reliant on capacitor it absolutely needs that range. And I'm talking about it having the ability to use other ammo type besides scorch that can hit 17-25 km.
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Rroff
Questionable Ethics. Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
891
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Posted - 2015.01.31 12:14:45 -
[12] - Quote
Rivr Luzade wrote:If you think the Absolution is underpowered, you should see what alliances like Shadow Cartel or SnuffBox do with them. Then come back.
Was gonna post this when I saw the title. (Been on the receiving end of Snuff's setup).
No idea as to the Zealot as I never fly it but Absolution is decidedly not underpowered - its just designed for a different style of use (more ship of the line style) and not designed to be used like the sleipnir, etc. |
Harvey James
The Sengoku Legacy
1089
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Posted - 2015.01.31 13:46:08 -
[13] - Quote
absolution has the problem of the damnation too overcome .. sadly it fails every time..
Tech 3's need to be multi role ships not cruiser hulls with battleship tank and insane resists.
ABC's are clearly T2 in all but name.. remove drone/fighter assist mechanic.
Nerf web strength ..... Make the blaster eagle worth using please.
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elitatwo
Eve Minions Poopstain Removal Team
551
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Posted - 2015.01.31 14:34:35 -
[14] - Quote
Weeeh I'll take that Absolution
But I'd rather have a tech 2 Harbinger. Anyhow, I think that a dual-xl-asb fit like the op-command ship from the barbarians doesn't work on an Absolution.
Could be just me but I also think that command ships weren't exactly designed to roam the heavens on their own.
The Zealot, as much as I like her doesn't perform as her sibelings for solo roams, fly the Orgas- errm Phantasm instead..
signature
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Tusker Crazinski
Delta vane Corp. Mordus Angels
27
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Posted - 2015.01.31 16:43:57 -
[15] - Quote
I would actually like to try a solo zealot, been dicking around with omans with **** skills and even than I like the results. anyway I think its only deficiency is the lack of a drone bay.
and the abso, Isn't that the ship that can reach a near Napoc buffer? The Sleipnir either has a weak buffer or damn near no buffer with the good ol' dual XL-ASB fit. |
Bullet Therapist
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
255
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Posted - 2015.01.31 17:42:24 -
[16] - Quote
Tusker Crazinski wrote:I would actually like to try a solo zealot, been dicking around with omans with **** skills and even than I like the results. anyway I think its only deficiency is the lack of a drone bay.
and the abso, Isn't that the ship that can reach a near Napoc buffer? The Sleipnir either has a weak buffer or damn near no buffer with the good ol' dual XL-ASB fit.
It's a little slow for solo work. All of the the things that make the nomen great for solo the zealot can not do, it's a gang boat through and through. |
Reaver Glitterstim
Dromedaworks inc Test Alliance Please Ignore
2314
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Posted - 2015.01.31 19:10:39 -
[17] - Quote
Dregalis DeGraiden wrote:Sigh.... I only wish to get feedback and hopefully support from the pilots who actually flown the absolution and zealot who understands what the word balance means. THe zealot has no drones so to compensate it needs the tracking speed bonus to kill frigate tacklers. I have flown the Zealot in a pvp fleet as it was intended (I think) or maybe I was in an Omen, anyway most of us were in Zealots. I've also flown in a good variety of other skirmish cruiser fleets. Let me tell you, the drones are overrated. They will be used when we have them but really I think we just need more ships without drone bays. The Zealot has its drone power rolled into the hull. It's got raw power to a high extent, excellent damage projection. Not having drones means less TiDi and it also means I don't have to fuss over drones when I'm trying to skirmish. You know what we do when tackled by a frigate? We pop it. I mean you can switch to gleam ammo if you really need to but with more than 5 fleet members you really don't need to. I'd say what we fear more is....hmm....actually I can't think of anything a Zealot fleet fears. Is there a counter to a Zealot fleet? I can't think of any. I mean sure, you can brute force through one with multiple heavy interdictors and enough cruisers to blow em up, but I can't think of any actual counters. Maybe Ishtars, but those are a counter to everything.
As for flying a Zealot solo, well yeah you don't have drones and you need to be prepared for that. I'd probably use pulse lasers solo, and a navy web. Then you won't have much trouble with t1 frigate tacklers. Interceptors might be an issue but you're flying solo which is already kind of a bad idea.
As much as I like having a few swiss army ships available, I want to see more specialized ships that do a role well in groups when others have their back. Too many drone ships means nobody is on frigate duty because everyone just uses drones. That's more stress for everybody and less variety in fleet.
CSM X: Sabriz Adoudel, Mike Azariah, Sugar Kyle, Corbexx, Jenshae Chiroptera
Highsec reform thread
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afkalt
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
726
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Posted - 2015.01.31 19:31:42 -
[18] - Quote
Yup, ishtars stop them well. |
Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
16034
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Posted - 2015.01.31 20:28:56 -
[19] - Quote
I will admit I do miss the glory days of sniper Zealot gangs
"It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his ISK/hr depends upon his not understanding it!"
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elitatwo
Eve Minions Poopstain Removal Team
551
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Posted - 2015.01.31 22:51:25 -
[20] - Quote
Malcanis wrote:I will admit I do miss the glory days of sniper Zealot gangs
can I bring my Drake??
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James Zimmer
Furtherance.
11
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Posted - 2015.02.01 00:47:46 -
[21] - Quote
I've been looking at Command Ships, mostly because I want a T2 Battlecruiser. rather than traditional command ship roles. Restricting myself to gun boats with long-range guns (which is what I want to fly) and assuming sane fits, this is what I found (at least on paper):
- The Astarte can produce the most raw DPS. No surprises there, it's Gallente. Downsides are poor tracking against smaller/close ships and dependency on drones to make up for that, which can get killed off and are not optimal if you have to warp in/out frequently.
- The Absolution can produce the second most DPS, and can do so with substantially better tracking than the Astarte, without the dependency on drones. The downside is that it may not realistically need that advantage, and its ideal engagement range sits right at the ideal engagement range of Gallente drone boats.
- The Vulture has a dramatic range advantage. Again, no surprises there. Caldari are almost always range-bonused. It suffers from poor tracking and DPS up close.
- The Sleipnir can easily out-tank any of the other ships, and has great alpha, but its DPS and tracking are pathetic. It's Minmatar, so again, no surprises.
In the end, I that the Absolution may be slightly underpowered vs. the Astarte, but I think that's more of a function of Gallente ships getting way too much free DPS in the form of drones, than a weakness of the ship. It's clearly better than the Vulture at close range, and clearly worse at long range. It's probably worse than the Sleipnir in big fleets, where a command ship's job is to boost and survive, but almost certainly better n smaller fleets, where you can't afford to have a battlecruiser-sized ship that doesn't apply damage well. |
Dregalis DeGraiden
Perkone Caldari State
0
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Posted - 2015.02.01 01:36:30 -
[22] - Quote
Hmm, so no one agrees with my propose changes? Well I appreciate the input. Guess that means I have to start looking at the Legion for soloing wormholes, as the Zealot appears to be a sniper platform not suited for soloing. And as for the Absolution, can someone post me that shadow cartel fit? |
NEONOVUS
Diabolically Sexy Eureka-Secret Science R Us
976
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Posted - 2015.02.01 02:04:04 -
[23] - Quote
Looking at it, its the classic close enough to mistake it for something else, but not good enough in the line up. That you are basically mistaking the rough jack of all things for having a specialization. Amaar ships to me are bland because they are dumb ships. THey don't need you to think, their tank is passive, the guns are just load scorch, they can barely move so you don't worry about going somewhere, etc. That is their strength, also their weakness because they can be out dpsed, outranged, and outmanuvered easily. |
Paynus Maiassus
Capital Munitions
226
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Posted - 2015.02.01 02:40:01 -
[24] - Quote
Zealots used to be quite the rage when the AHAC doctrines were big.
Remember, the HACs were supposed to be counters to battleships. Since the warp speed changes everything has gravitated to cruisers, namely T3s, and the one obscenely whack HAC: Ishtar.
You don't see fleets of anything anymore except T3s and Ishtars. This is nullsec big fleets I mean. Various gangs and lowsec groups and all use all sorts of stuff, including Zealots and Absolutions.
I really don't think all the ships need to be changed every time there's a change in the meta and the player base goes in a different direction.
Nerf Ishtars. Ruin them for sentries and give them some other sort of drone use like the Gila has.
Nerf T3s.
Then you'll see the various strengths of the different cruisers shine. Remember the Alphafleet doctrine? What did you need to take out a billion Maelstroms? Zealots. They are made to be used en masse against battleship fleets getting in up close below tracking and razing them. They are not meant to be an anti-frigate force. They should not have tracking bonuses.
I can't speak about the Absolution, as I don't fly any command ships. What I can say from reading about them and from choosing the one I wanted to train for (Claymore) is that the whole class is a little messed up. They are generally inferior boosters to T3s for a multiple of reasons. They are quite cool and get used, but when you start saying a Command Ship needs to get a buff because it is not a superior ship of the line you're a little off. Command ships should be boosters that are worth using with stats designed to keep fleet commanders alive. They need a complete rethink.
So I vote no on your problems with Amarr T2 medium laser ships. The Zealot is perfect for an out of vogue meta. You change it to something else and all the sudden some game tweak brings battleships back into style and then you clamor 'we wish we had a cruiser that can shred turret battleship fleets.' Well, you turned the Zealot into a frig killer (with way too much tank and some good speed to boot) so you don't deserve to have a Maelstrom counter.
Just saying, there needs to be a more compelling reason than 'there's something it can't do like another cruiser can.' |
Murkar Omaristos
The Alabaster Albatross Eternal Pretorian Alliance
62
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Posted - 2015.02.01 02:43:04 -
[25] - Quote
Zealots are not OP at all.......nor underpowered.....one of the ships that's very well balanced \o/ |
Bullet Therapist
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
256
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Posted - 2015.02.01 03:26:20 -
[26] - Quote
Malcanis wrote:I will admit I do miss the glory days of sniper Zealot gangs
I think Test still does them? Maybe not, but they're still a fun comp to fly. |
Maqari Kinraysuwa
Oruze Cruise
15
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Posted - 2015.02.01 05:01:59 -
[27] - Quote
The Absolution is fine. Command ships are fine, for the most part. The only thing I would change about BCs is to give them a speed increase, to tighten the gap between them and cruisers, and to create more between them and battleships. This is more of an issue with battlecruiser balance as a whole, because they are, by and large, simply too fat and slow to make use of, outside of some niche circumstances and fleet compositions.
Command ships make up for that weakness, to some extent. It's hard to complain about 120k ehp and 700 dps with ~90% omni resists, even if the ship only goes 900ms under MWD. The reason CSes aren't used isn't because they are bad, but because T3s are better in pretty much every way, and by enough of a margin to justify the increased cost and lower dps. The reason Zealots aren't used is because of the Legion and, to a lesser extent, the Ishtar. Even though the Legion costs 5x the price of a Zealot, it absolutely eclipses it in every significant metric. The solution isn't to buff anything, but to balance out T3s and put Ishtars back in the ground, so they can keep HMLs company. |
baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
14775
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Posted - 2015.02.01 05:29:01 -
[28] - Quote
This is yet another case of the ships being fine and the answer being to nerf T3 and the Ishatar/sentries. Furthermore, it is my opinion that Carthage must be destroyed.
Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship
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Paynus Maiassus
Capital Munitions
226
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Posted - 2015.02.06 03:14:39 -
[29] - Quote
Maqari Kinraysuwa wrote:The Absolution is fine. Command ships are fine, for the most part. The only thing I would change about BCs is to give them a speed increase, to tighten the gap between them and cruisers, and to create more between them and battleships. This is more of an issue with battlecruiser balance as a whole, because they are, by and large, simply too fat and slow to make use of, outside of some niche circumstances and fleet compositions.
Command ships make up for that weakness, to some extent. It's hard to complain about 120k ehp and 700 dps with ~90% omni resists, even if the ship only goes 900ms under MWD. The reason CSes aren't used isn't because they are bad, but because T3s are better in pretty much every way, and by enough of a margin to justify the increased cost and lower dps. The reason Zealots aren't used is because of the Legion and, to a lesser extent, the Ishtar. Even though the Legion costs 5x the price of a Zealot, it absolutely eclipses it in every significant metric. The solution isn't to buff anything, but to balance out T3s and put Ishtars back in the ground, so they can keep HMLs company.
About battlecruiser, the real world philosophy on them was cruiser speed, battleship damage, paper tank, maybe like cruiser tank.
The problem in converting that to Eve is the issue of cost. The reason that battlecruisers did not replace cruisers in the real world navies is they cost more. Well, T1 BCs do cost more than T1 cruisers, but T2 cruisers cost more than T1 BCs. And while T2 BCs cost more than T2 cruisers, T2 BCs aren't his of the line - they are fleet commanders.
So it's kind of hard to translate exactly how the BCs should relate exactly to cruisers. In Eve, BCs have similar or superior firepower to cruisers, and slightly superior to castle superior tanks, but are much slower.
I personally agree with you and would like to see BCs a lot faster, able to move every bit as fast as cruisers, with certain elements such as tank and firepower either equal to a cruiser or vastly superior, with cruisers having basically no advantage over BCs other than being cheaper. However, the whole T1/T2 thing really messes that up in Eve. |
Harvey James
The Sengoku Legacy
1093
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Posted - 2015.02.06 03:25:23 -
[30] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:This is yet another case of the ships being fine and the answer being to nerf T3 and the Ishatar/sentries. Furthermore, it is my opinion that Carthage must be destroyed.
whats the beef with carthage? (carthum conglomerate?) and zealot is viziam .. also damnation is still much better than absolution, why fly an absolution instead?
Tech 3's need to be multi role ships not cruiser hulls with battleship tank and insane resists.
ABC's are clearly T2 in all but name.. remove drone/fighter assist mechanic.
Nerf web strength ..... Make the blaster eagle worth using please.
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