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Phaade
Perimeter Defense Systems
Templis CALSF
300
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Posted - 2015.02.03 15:27:28 -
[91] - Quote
I disagree with your assessment of ASBs being overpowered. I was able to kill a Dual ASB Worm with a Merlin. Tech II guns were obviously a factor. I've killed many other dual MASB ships as well...even those bonuses for it.
Oh and was there also a rule that you couldn't kill drones? Cuz you only have 4.... |
Stitch Kaneland
Tribal Liberation Force
Minmatar Republic
137
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Posted - 2015.02.03 16:10:58 -
[92] - Quote
Mournful Conciousness wrote:Stitch Kaneland wrote:Strange. My arty thrasher killed a triple MASB hawk without much issue.
This is because alpha counters most active tanks. How many of those meta0 t1 frigs fit arty? Course then again your are playing in a confined set of rules of meta0 items and t1 frigs. in reality, a t2 fit AF, or even a LML breacher or condor would take you out. Since you have no damps to counter them at range.
Which reminds me. Dual MASB breacher is strong in brawling range, but you get out of scram range and kite (or never get there in the first place.. And itll die just the same. Just because something tanks alot, doesnt mean it has no weakness.
The difference between MASB and AAR is fitting. MASBs take up more fitting than AARs. AARs use less than a t2 equivalent, not to mention they rep more and continue repping even without paste. Once ASBs run out of charges, you wait 45s on reload and have no tank (unless you have 2). If you get attacked by ships that arent t1 and fit with meta0 modules, on a non bonused hull, you will get a very different outcome.
Stitch, you realise what you've just said though right? The counter to a dual MASB frigate is a ship one class higher - a destroyer. Similarly an effective counter to a dual-asb battlecruiser is a battleship. The counter to a dual (or triple) ASB battleship is... a marauder... I think this illustrates nicely what is wrong with the dual-asb setup in its current form. Reducing the shield regen to be proportional to the size of the charge you put in the module solves this without gimping the original intent of the ASB (a quick recharge to shields for skirmishers) To be specific. This thread is not a moan about the concept of the ASB, it's highlighting the fact that dual-asb is too easy to fit, too efficient and so powerful that it makes all other shield tanks obsolete.
Its not just a "frigate". Its a t2 ASSAULT frigatewith a shield boost bonus that also has a small sig and role bonus for mwd sig reduction. AFs can easily handle most t1 dessies. Not 1 or 2, but 3 BONUSED MASBs on an AF hull (links probable), and it still succumb to a single 10m thrasher. You know whats stronger than an MASB hawk? A DS/faction MSB fit. Know why? Needs less fitting, can keep range controlling webs and scales even better with links. Never has a reload and can tank until it runs of charges to feed cap booster. Still tanks over 200dps IIRC.
Yep, it costs several hundred mil to work. But i fought one with an application fit bellicose, and couldnt get him past 25% shield. Keep in mind, my bellicose does 350dps applied with RLML. My RLML cruiser, designed to kill frigs, died to a medium shield boosted hawk. Not an ASB fit. An ASB hawk died to my thrasher.
Destroyers are meant to kill frigates. That is their role. If you dont want to use the tools provided, and then blame the module because of arbitrary rules put in place, thats your mistake.
CCP has stated they do not balance around tournaments(ishtar "nerf" thread a few patches back), so just because your meta0 tourney was dominated by ASB, doesnt mean in TQ that ASBs are overpowered. |
Alvatore DiMarco
Capricious Endeavours Ltd
3412
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Posted - 2015.02.03 16:42:52 -
[93] - Quote
Mournful Conciousness wrote:I have also seen a post by CCP Rise stating that an L-ASB should deliver a little more shield than a large shield booster (it was in a discussion about the vagabond).
In reality, an LSE gives the ship 3281 points of shield, an overheated L-ASB with navy 150s delivers 9x589 = 5301 points of shield on a vagabond (before rigs, crystals and pills). This is not "a little more", it's "almost double".
Says "booster vs booster", goes on to compare extender vs booster.
Maybe you'd like to compare trimarks against target painters next and tell us which is better. |
Mournful Conciousness
Embers Children
TOHA Conglomerate
825
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Posted - 2015.02.03 18:45:03 -
[94] - Quote
Stitch Kaneland wrote:
...
Thanks for clarifying Stitch. That's interesting and enlightening. I appreciate the effort you've put into this post.
Alvatore DiMarco wrote:
How much shield does an LSB give vs an LASB? Per-cycle and over the course of nine cycles, if you please.
LSB gives you 3281 shield points with max skills and before multiplier effects like ship bonuses and rigs.
LASB with 9x navy 150 gives you 429 x 9 = 3861 shield points over (3.4 * (9-1)) = 27.2 seconds before ship bonuses, implants, drugs and shield boost amp effects.
with 3 T2 field extenders the LSE is worth 3281 * 1.2 * 1.2 * 1.2 = 5669
with a shield boost amp and a rep-bonused hull the LASB is worth 3861 * 1.36 * 1.375 = 7220
LASB all the way unless you're in an extreme alpha situation.
Embers Children is recruiting carefully selected pilots who like wormholes, green killboards and the sweet taste of tears. You can convo me in game or join the chat "TOHA Lounge".
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Van Beyus
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
1
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Posted - 2015.02.03 18:51:41 -
[95] - Quote
Alvatore DiMarco wrote:Mournful Conciousness wrote:I have also seen a post by CCP Rise stating that an L-ASB should deliver a little more shield than a large shield booster (it was in a discussion about the vagabond).
In reality, an LSE gives the ship 3281 points of shield, an overheated L-ASB with navy 150s delivers 9x589 = 5301 points of shield on a vagabond (before rigs, crystals and pills). This is not "a little more", it's "almost double". Says "booster vs booster", goes on to compare extender vs booster. How much shield does an LSB give vs an LASB? Per-cycle and over the course of nine cycles, if you please. Maybe you'd like to compare trimarks against target painters next and tell us which is better, or perhaps take up a career in politics. He's right. The final effect is the same, the only difference is on the ASB your shield points come in bursts.
I'm not online most of the time, but I won't change this signature when I do just to make your life easier.
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Mournful Conciousness
Embers Children
TOHA Conglomerate
826
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Posted - 2015.02.03 19:15:20 -
[96] - Quote
Van Beyus wrote:He's right. The final effect is the same, the only difference is on the ASB your shield points come in bursts.
Nope, he's wrong - see the mathematical treatment above.
LSE protects against alpha strikes. In any situation where the combat lasts longer than 21 seconds the LASB is a better choice.
Embers Children is recruiting carefully selected pilots who like wormholes, green killboards and the sweet taste of tears. You can convo me in game or join the chat "TOHA Lounge".
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Frostys Virpio
The Mjolnir Bloc
The Bloc
1541
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Posted - 2015.02.03 20:47:22 -
[97] - Quote
Mournful Conciousness wrote:Van Beyus wrote:He's right. The final effect is the same, the only difference is on the ASB your shield points come in bursts. Nope, he's wrong - see the mathematical treatment above. LSE protects against alpha strikes. In any situation where the combat lasts longer than 21 seconds the LASB is a better choice.
Not if you have other people involved in your MMO...
*troll* And for the sake of putting the most worthless argument in tehre too because I can, if the combat last long enough, the LSE will win again out of passive regen quite a while after the LASB ran out of cap charge. */troll* |
Serene Repose
2170
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Posted - 2015.02.03 21:23:03 -
[98] - Quote
Delt0r Garsk wrote:And a dual ASB has to make compromises on fit. FFS stop playing in safe box and get out there and PvP... tell me how many fights you own. Lets see some proof of there OPness.
Cycle time, 3 sec. 9 charges, 1 min reload, do the math. They are *not* OP or everything would be a ABS fit.
Hell our corp doesn't use them on our t3s or vagurs for a reason. And...proof of yours?
Treason never prospers. What is the reason?
Why, if it prospers, none dare call it "treason."
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Van Beyus
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
2
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Posted - 2015.02.03 23:14:35 -
[99] - Quote
Mournful Conciousness wrote:Van Beyus wrote:He's right. The final effect is the same, the only difference is on the ASB your shield points come in bursts. Nope, he's wrong - see the mathematical treatment above. LSE protects against alpha strikes. In any situation where the combat lasts longer than 21 seconds the LASB is a better choice. Yes, alpha will always beat active tanking. Nonetheless those 21 secs you're counting are for 1 module only, and you're considering a module permanently activated wich usually doesn't happen unless the incoming DPS is overwhelming. With two modules, if you can manage to stretch the tanking time of one module while the other module reloads then you'll also have to take into account the cargo space. Overall it is a huge ammount of HP available. Of course, it doesn't make SE obsolete because of alpha and RR, but it is a very powerful module nonetheless.
I only wished the boost was relative to the charge size used. I guess this is something the game engine can't handle though.
I'm not online most of the time, but I won't change this signature when I do just to make your life easier.
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GavinGoodrich
The Great Harmon Institute Of Technology
103
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Posted - 2015.02.04 02:13:20 -
[100] - Quote
I'd agree with the OP that there needs to be a difference in how much shields you can boost, based on the size of the charge.
That was pretty much the entire point of what he was trying to get at.
There ought to be ups and downs to using different size charges in an ASB. Until people get the hang of it, everyone keeps asking the same question: "Well what's the smallest size I can cram into this thing if it doesn't make a difference?? Man that seems a little....off..."
Haaaaaalp my head's on fire
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Jenshae Chiroptera
The Volition Cult
856
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Posted - 2015.02.04 03:11:43 -
[101] - Quote
Probably reiterating but I do not want to read the whole thread.
You felt it was over powered in one situation.
Before ASBs Cyclones and Sleipneirs and such only worked in one situations, pretty much.
Yes you can dual ASB but you will be ground down and you have sacrificed 2-3 slots (if you use a shield booster) so you better hope you have enough buffer with dual prop and other things.
Generally, Amarr and Gallente has damage bonuses because they share low slots with their tank. Shield don't get inherent utility bonuses like a magic warp disruptor that comes with the hull of their ship.
CSM Ten movement for change.
CCP - Building ant hills and magnifying glasses for fat kids.
Status: Rabid carebear
Blog
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Lady Rift
What Shall We Call It
173
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Posted - 2015.02.04 03:28:31 -
[102] - Quote
GavinGoodrich wrote:I'd agree with the OP that there needs to be a difference in how much shields you can boost, based on the size of the charge.
That was pretty much the entire point of what he was trying to get at.
There ought to be ups and downs to using different size charges in an ASB. Until people get the hang of it, everyone keeps asking the same question: "Well what's the smallest size I can cram into this thing if it doesn't make a difference?? Man that seems a little....off..."
so the fix is they remove the ability to use the larger cap boosters in it? cause I don't think that's what this 6 page thread is about. |
God's Apples
Genos Occidere
Warlords of the Deep
546
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Posted - 2015.02.04 03:53:47 -
[103] - Quote
Wow who knew that extremely overtanked garbage is really powerful in hypothetical 1v1 situations. Maybe if you got good and actually played the game you would realize what a moron you really are.
"Hydra Reloaded are just jealous / butthurt on me / us because we can get tons of PVP action in empire while they aren't good enough to get that." - NightmareX
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Inxentas Ultramar
Ultramar Independent Contracting
1699
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Posted - 2015.02.04 07:31:57 -
[104] - Quote
Yeah this "discussion" has gone on for about 6 pages, and the OP seems completely unsusceptible to the idea that his arbitrary limitations are what makes the ASB so strong. Because it is, when placed in that context. All other context has been disregarded in favour of the hypothetical or staged 1vs1. This is like trying to convince a woman you still find her attractive on her period. |
Ciba Lexlulu
Stay Frosty.
A Band Apart.
55
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Posted - 2015.02.04 11:20:21 -
[105] - Quote
I have a good laugh reading OP's post and some of the answers/proposed solutions. May be OP and some of those solutions providers should actually try real frigate PvP first?
Hint: PvP in sisi with pretermined 'fair' engagement parameters are not real and does not represent frigate PvP in TQ. Especially lowsec TQ. |
Lugh Crow-Slave
656
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Posted - 2015.02.04 11:38:46 -
[106] - Quote
Ciba Lexlulu wrote:I have a good laugh reading OP's post and some of the answers/proposed solutions. May be OP and some of those solutions providers should actually try real frigate PvP first?
Hint: PvP in sisi with pretermined 'fair' engagement parameters are not real and does not represent frigate PvP in TQ. Especially lowsec TQ.
You mean there aren't time limits on real fights? but but i have school in the morning
Fuel block colors
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Debora Tsung
Die Woge des Wahnsinns
Greater Western Co-Prosperity Sphere
1466
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Posted - 2015.02.04 11:40:00 -
[107] - Quote
Vyl Vit wrote:SO...what? Well, I've been waiting for someone to crunch the numbers on this; standard shield boosters vs. ancillary...cap useage stats...cap warefare impact...this sort of thing, and I've found (strangely enough and stranger for EVE) not much information about this is out there. What's this matter for huh?
Your Google-Fu is weak!
I found this one after just 3 seconds: ASB Balance: a numerical look
Stupidity should be a bannable offense.
Fighting back is more fun than not.
Sticky: AFK Cloaking Thread It's not pretty, but it's there.
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God's Apples
Genos Occidere
Warlords of the Deep
548
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Posted - 2015.02.04 22:05:52 -
[108] - Quote
Debora Tsung wrote:Vyl Vit wrote:SO...what? Well, I've been waiting for someone to crunch the numbers on this; standard shield boosters vs. ancillary...cap useage stats...cap warefare impact...this sort of thing, and I've found (strangely enough and stranger for EVE) not much information about this is out there. What's this matter for huh? Your Google-Fu is weak! I found this one after just 3 seconds: ASB Balance: a numerical look
All those numbers are from when large and xl ASBs had 13 charges. Those last two graphs would look very different if you did it with 9 charges; the larges have a downtime of almost 30 seconds.
"Hydra Reloaded are just jealous / butthurt on me / us because we can get tons of PVP action in empire while they aren't good enough to get that." - NightmareX
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