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Mharius Skjem
Opacity Circles
299
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Posted - 2015.02.02 23:02:18 -
[1] - Quote
I was driving home from work the other day and caught part of a philosophy program on the BBC.
The gist of it was that in the times of the ancient Romans and Greeks many philosophers thought that men were superior to the Gods on the grounds that the Gods by virtue of being immortal and unkillable could not know fear and as such could not be brave.
Men by virtue of the fact that they could be killed can of course know fear and bravery. This is a state impossible for Gods.
I immediately thought of us immortal capsuleers, who can get killed and re-cloned in a hearbeat. Technically we can not know death so does this mean that we can not be brave?
Assets can be replaced, ships and crew are meaningless to us especially if a coalition is underwriting our battles.
So I ask can any of us know bravery?
A recovering btter vet, with a fresh toon and a determination to like everything that CCP does to Eve...
Don't take me too seriously though, I like to tease a bit on the forums, but that's only because I love you...
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Alexi Komanov
The Combined Interests Group
3
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Posted - 2015.02.02 23:05:26 -
[2] - Quote
Bravery is not a trait I would want to have. |
Mharius Skjem
Opacity Circles
299
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Posted - 2015.02.02 23:06:13 -
[3] - Quote
Alexi Komanov wrote:Bravery is not a trait I would want to have.
What about Fear?
A recovering btter vet, with a fresh toon and a determination to like everything that CCP does to Eve...
Don't take me too seriously though, I like to tease a bit on the forums, but that's only because I love you...
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Unsuccessful At Everything
The Troll Bridge
19694
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Posted - 2015.02.02 23:10:02 -
[4] - Quote
Its easy to be BRAVE in eve online. All one has to do is apply.
Mharius Skjem wrote:What about Fear?
There's too much fear in eve online as it is. Please refer to any and all AFK Cloaking threads.
Since the cessation of their usefulness is imminent, may I appropriate your belongings?
Vote Sabriz Adoudel for CSM 10!
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Mharius Skjem
Opacity Circles
299
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Posted - 2015.02.02 23:11:59 -
[5] - Quote
Unsuccessful At Everything wrote:Its easy to be BRAVE in eve online. All one has to do is apply. Mharius Skjem wrote:What about Fear? There's too much fear in eve online as it is. Please refer to any and all AFK Cloaking threads.
Why didn't you just say no then?
A recovering btter vet, with a fresh toon and a determination to like everything that CCP does to Eve...
Don't take me too seriously though, I like to tease a bit on the forums, but that's only because I love you...
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Abrazzar
Vardaugas Family
5960
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Posted - 2015.02.02 23:13:03 -
[6] - Quote
Your wallet. The Killboards. People will find a reason to be afraid, even if there is no immediate threat.
Sovereignty and Population
New Mining Mechanics
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Unsuccessful At Everything
The Troll Bridge
19694
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Posted - 2015.02.02 23:14:26 -
[7] - Quote
Mharius Skjem wrote:Unsuccessful At Everything wrote:Its easy to be BRAVE in eve online. All one has to do is apply. Mharius Skjem wrote:What about Fear? There's too much fear in eve online as it is. Please refer to any and all AFK Cloaking threads. Why didn't you just say no then?
Since when am I known for my 'one word' answers?
Since the cessation of their usefulness is imminent, may I appropriate your belongings?
Vote Sabriz Adoudel for CSM 10!
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Mharius Skjem
Opacity Circles
299
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Posted - 2015.02.02 23:17:14 -
[8] - Quote
what do we really lose, a couple of days of production perhaps, some isk, we can always get more of these things.
They are inconsequential to most capsuleers so are meaningless.
It's only the illusion of risk. So I ask again can we know bravery?
A recovering btter vet, with a fresh toon and a determination to like everything that CCP does to Eve...
Don't take me too seriously though, I like to tease a bit on the forums, but that's only because I love you...
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Scipio Artelius
The Vendunari
End of Life
32396
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Posted - 2015.02.02 23:23:35 -
[9] - Quote
Mharius Skjem wrote:It's only the illusion of risk. So I ask again can we know bravery? \No, it's not possible for our characters to be brave.
Come Win At Eve - Join The Vendunari
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Chainsaw Plankton
IDLE GUNS
IDLE EMPIRE
923
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Posted - 2015.02.02 23:26:10 -
[10] - Quote
Abrazzar wrote:Your wallet. The Killboards. People will find a reason to be afraid, even if there is no immediate threat.
and this is where the tears and rage come from
I'll join the chorus asking CCP, don't take my fancy names away from me!
In the name of the Limos, the Malkuth, and the Arbalest, so help me pod
- Mara Rinn
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Ned Thomas
Hellbound Turkeys
Alliance of Abandoned Cybernetic Rejects
738
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Posted - 2015.02.02 23:28:44 -
[11] - Quote
Some call it bravery. I call it moonshine.
Vote Sabriz!
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Saladiin
WiNGSPAN Delivery Services
5
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Posted - 2015.02.02 23:30:52 -
[12] - Quote
Just look at the great lengths capsuleers of all types go to avoid combat/loss.
-Explorers scanning down a site and waiting HOURS until the only other soul in systems leaves so they can hack in peace.
-Miners who refuse to go into lowsec.
-Mining parties with security.
-Freighters bringing along webbers and scouts to avoid ganks/escape them.
-100-Ship harpy/Ishtar/Tengu gangs using safety in numbers to fight.
Just because Isk or KB efficiency hold no sway over you doesn't mean these are inconsequential to ALL pilots. Such differences exist in real life.
To some, religion is a cause of fear of bravery/zealotry. To others, they don't bother going to church at all.
To some, the collapse of a business venture is a minor inconvenience. To others, these can have devastating, life-changing consequences.
I don't know about bravery (these are internet spaceships after all  ), but fear definitely has a place in the game. I'll save the bravery for the firefighters, cops, docs/nurses/EMTs and service members who put real stakes on the line. |
Nexus Day
Lustrevik Trade and Travel Bureau
1111
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Posted - 2015.02.02 23:34:08 -
[13] - Quote
An eternity of being trolled and kill mailed is something people fear. That is why the stations are so full of capsuleers and space is so empty.
This thread has so much content it may be 'Thread of the Year' and it is only January.
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Memphis Baas
107
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Posted - 2015.02.02 23:35:00 -
[14] - Quote
Um, if that's what they thought, the Romans and Greeks had their facts wrong: the gods were actually vulnerable to the titans (whom they fought and overthrew) and to each other, so I'm pretty sure they felt fear. Also, all of the fables of antiquity depict them as displaying the full range of emotions (from being petty to jealous to amused to enraged), so I'm not sure why they'd be exempt from fear.
As far as pod pilots, in my opinion, permadeath can be implemented at CCP's discretion; we don't really have control over our "immortality" when it comes down to it, it's something that's in CCP's hands. And if they were to implement it (hypothetically), I think pod pilots would continue to undock and have fights and play the game like we do now (perhaps a little more carefully). So if someone is "brave" under permadeath rules, why can't they be "brave" now? They're taking risks, achieving something, having a better game for it. |
Vincent Athena
V.I.C.E.
3109
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Posted - 2015.02.02 23:43:59 -
[15] - Quote
If the Greek gods were so immortal; where are they now?
Know a Frozen fan? Check this out
Frozen fanfiction
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Crumplecorn
Eve Cluster Explorations
1956
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Posted - 2015.02.02 23:48:03 -
[16] - Quote
You don't actually die in any game, and you are not actually a space pilot.
Witty Image - Stream
Not Liking this post hurts my RL feelings and will be considered harassment
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Cancel Align NOW
Greater Order Of Destruction
417
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Posted - 2015.02.03 00:45:27 -
[17] - Quote
Mharius Skjem wrote:what do we really lose, a couple of days of production perhaps, some isk, we can always get more of these things.
They are inconsequential to most capsuleers so are meaningless.
It's only the illusion of risk. So I ask again can we know bravery?
You can, here is how you (and any one can do it).
1. Ask your bank to lift your credit card limit to a level you know will stretch you financially.
2. Max out credit card on plex purchases.
3. Sell said plex in Jita for isk.
4. Use isk to buy:
A combat titan pilot
A titan holding pilot
3 scouting pilots
A jump freighter pilot
5. Buy a titan.
6. Officer fit your titan.
7. Find a pipe that attracts frequent but not continuous traffic.
8. Use your scouts to well scout.
9. When a target of opportunity arrives log in titan.
10. Solo hot drop. (oh yeah all of this must be done in an NPC Corp)
11. Keep Solo hot dropping until you notice an intense flair up cyno fields within 5 au of you.
12. Be brave just do 1 more. |
Mashie Saldana
Lock'n'Point
1526
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Posted - 2015.02.03 02:24:59 -
[18] - Quote
Yes there are still brave people in Eve.
A couple of days ago I fought a firetail in a worm. The guy had no chance and died in seconds. After the fight I asked him why he didn't warp out and he said: I just had to try it.
I lost the worm the same night to concord in 0.5 system because I was too stoned but that wasn't bravery but stupidity.
How to win EVE
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Serene Repose
2166
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Posted - 2015.02.03 02:26:04 -
[19] - Quote
Fear is simply the loss of rationale. It may "feel" bad, but it amounts to no more than that. As a result, what to be fearful of or whether fear is necessary becomes indefineable, which is what overwhelms. A supposed diety would "know" better.
Bravery, or overcoming something imagined by "dint of will" therefore isn't much of an accomplishment, as there is nothing to overcome. Situations humanity subjects itself to, then claims bravery ensued, are usually unnecessary situations humans bring upon themselves, (such as situations in wars). The surreal nature of such behavior, though it may give rise to both fear and bravery, is neither commendable, nor desireable.
Fight or flight reads as fear. Then, sometimes people read intoxication from booze as love, and unbridled greed as ambition. Meaning: Ultimately we have to believe sources with no credibility (including ourselves) when examining this so-called subject. This doesn't bother people in the main, since it gives them great stories, and a certain amount of admiration from the audience if the teller happens to be the brave one in the tale. We see that a lot from ... certain uniformed people today.
To answer your question. No, it's not possible to be brave at all. It is possible to convince yourself or others of that condition, however. It's that sort of behavior Mark Twain made a career out of, by the way.
Treason never prospers. What is the reason?
Why, if it prospers, none dare call it "treason."
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Herzog Wolfhammer
Sigma Special Tactics Group
6176
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Posted - 2015.02.03 02:37:44 -
[20] - Quote
Bravery in a game is impossible.
And if a player manages to foster bravery in a game, it's wasted.
And I will even say this about shooting sports. I don't care if you can hit some target at 1000 meters with your "space gun". Try it with someone trying to call in arty on you and the serious time limitations entailed in that and it ain't gonna be very good.
Nor very fun.
So I would think that bravery is something best left to the real world where it matters most.
For the game, well heck let's just blow each other up for sh!ts and giggles. 
Bring back DEEEEP Space!
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Scipio Artelius
The Vendunari
End of Life
32398
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Posted - 2015.02.03 03:00:16 -
[21] - Quote
Herzog Wolfhammer wrote:And if a player manages to foster bravery in a game, it's wasted.
The OP isn't talking about players. He's talking about his thoughts turning to "us immortal capsuleers, who can get killed and re-cloned in a hearbeat."
If the discussion is about players, then imo there's more possibility. Bravery isn't simply heroism in the common way it is pictured. It encompasses boldness, courage, fearlessness and a range of other aspects that can be applied at different levels. There's no line to be crossed before someone is declared brave. Even small, almost everyday, things can display the characteristics of bravery.
There are probably many example of players being brave over the years.
But characters? Pfffft.
Come Win At Eve - Join The Vendunari
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Michael Ruckert
Hohere Kavallerie-Kommando
268
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Posted - 2015.02.03 03:03:43 -
[22] - Quote
I looked up the definition of "fear". Found a photo of Cannibal Kane.
"No matter how well you perform there's always somebody of intelligent opinion who thinks it's lousy." - Laurence Olivier
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Hibernator X
Bene Gesserit ChapterHouse
Sanctuary Pact
31
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Posted - 2015.02.03 04:18:23 -
[23] - Quote
As with most things in eve, real value is not attached to isk but the social connections you hold dear. Budding FC's and CEOs can experience fear and bravery in this game. |
Kenneth Endashi
Green Skull LLC
38
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Posted - 2015.02.03 04:33:57 -
[24] - Quote
This is a question my friend raised while discussing Eve Online. I tried to get him into the game. The first thing he noticed is that capsuleers are virtually gods roaming through space.
He would probably agree that a god - and therefore a capsuleer - can not be brave under the definition we're using.
Moreover, the reason he won't play the game is intrinsically tied to his perception that you don't really lose anything in Eve Online. He said there's no true risk. I always read "Only fly what you can afford to lose," which is what you hear from people who flirt with the idea of gambling, too: "Only play what you can afford to lose."
A brave capsuleer would have to be someone on his or her last ISK, flying the very last thing they could afford to fly, and choosing to dive into null security space. The stakes would be especially high - making the capsuleer exceptionally brave - if the gamer was not willing to spend real-life money on PLEX. For example, if I run out of ISK, I can't play anymore. I haven't been exploring in a while, so I could be coming up on my last two months of Eve Online in April, if I don't get out into null-sec and hack some high-yield relic sites. Am I brave for playing it that way? Ask me when I have only a week left and still not enough ISK to replace my Buzzard.
On a meta-level, however, because there is no permanent loss of life - even if CCP or another company deleted my avatar or revoked my license to play the game - I think bravery in any videogame hardly qualifies to meet the definition. Bravery, in that case, would be to walk away and never play another videogame ever again. |
Mike Azariah
The Scope
Gallente Federation
2434
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Posted - 2015.02.03 08:58:08 -
[25] - Quote
IN felt I have seen bravery in game when one player/character sacrifices for others to succeed or escape. I have seen both of those at various times and was truly impressed. Because in the moment it is not just pixels, otherwise why do my hand shake?
m
Mike Azariah-á CSM8 and now CSM9
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Nami Kumamato
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
499
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Posted - 2015.02.03 09:16:51 -
[26] - Quote
Mharius Skjem wrote:I was driving home from work the other day and caught part of a philosophy program on the BBC.
The gist of it was that in the times of the ancient Romans and Greeks many philosophers thought that men were superior to the Gods on the grounds that the Gods by virtue of being immortal and unkillable could not know fear and as such could not be brave.
Men by virtue of the fact that they could be killed can of course know fear and bravery. This is a state impossible for Gods.
I immediately thought of us immortal capsuleers, who can get killed and re-cloned in a hearbeat. Technically we can not know death so does this mean that we can not be brave?
Assets can be replaced, ships and crew are meaningless to us especially if a coalition is underwriting our battles.
So I ask can any of us know bravery?
Unlike the Gods, your immortality is susceptible to how much ISK you have.
Once the space-benjamins run out - so does your immortality.
" And now my ship is oh so cloaked and fit -
I never felt so good, I never felt so hid ! "
- Ramona McCandless, Untitled
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Dyllan Ma'tar
Hoplite Brigade
0
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Posted - 2015.02.03 09:27:47 -
[27] - Quote
Mharius Skjem wrote:I was driving home from work the other day and caught part of a philosophy program on the BBC.
The gist of it was that in the times of the ancient Romans and Greeks many philosophers thought that men were superior to the Gods on the grounds that the Gods by virtue of being immortal and unkillable could not know fear and as such could not be brave.
Men by virtue of the fact that they could be killed can of course know fear and bravery. This is a state impossible for Gods.
I immediately thought of us immortal capsuleers, who can get killed and re-cloned in a hearbeat. Technically we can not know death so does this mean that we can not be brave?
Assets can be replaced, ships and crew are meaningless to us especially if a coalition is underwriting our battles.
So I ask can any of us know bravery?
If bravery were only the fear of death and the overcoming of it then the answer would be no. But bravery encompasses far more then that.
Bravery is a self overcoming.
The problem is not that the answers to your question are deficient, the problem is that the premises of your assertion are deficient.
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Yarda Black
Militaris Industries
Northern Coalition.
542
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Posted - 2015.02.03 09:38:37 -
[28] - Quote
Fear is an emotion based on an opinion.
Bravery being the conquest of fear is thus also an individual thing defined by the individual.
A 5 year old with arachnafobia touching a spider can be brave (the child). A suicidal soldier running guns blazing into the enemy may not (the god).
In EVE you can be "brave" if you overcome your "fear". Whether or not any one else would be brave doing the same thing is irrelevant. |
War Kitten
Panda McLegion
5848
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Posted - 2015.02.03 11:27:42 -
[29] - Quote
So my pod pilot is immortal and can't be brave, and I'm not a newbie, so the Brave Newbies loophole is out.
But my ships can be destroyed - can my ships be brave?
Don't give me any BS about them not being living beings either, because if imaginary pod pilots are valid for discussion, so are imaginary living spaceships.
Number 5 is alive!
I find that without a good mob to provide one for them, most people would have no mentality at all.
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Destiny Corrupted
Deadly Viper Kitten Mitten Sewing Company
2705
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Posted - 2015.02.03 11:44:47 -
[30] - Quote
Based on the fact that about half of the people I've ever declared war on logged off and then never logged in again, I'l say that no, it's impossible to be brave in EVE Online. I thought that the combatants had at least some degree of bravery, such as the time I sacrificed my Proteus so that my friend could get out of a tricky situation in a wormhole battle, but afterwards I realized that I was simply stupid for doing it, because it would have been much cheaper to have him die instead and replace his ship.
In EVE, there are consequences, but no permanent consequences. And as such, being brave is impossible, because there's only cowardice, or cold, hard, mathematical risk/reward calculations.
Vincent Athena wrote:If the Greek gods were so immortal; where are they now?
Xena killed them all with magical Jesus powers.
I wrote some true EVE stories! And no, they're not of the generic "my 0.0 alliance had lots of 0.0 fleets and took a lot of 0.0 space" sort. Check them out here:
https://truestories.eveonline.com/users/2074-destiny-corrupted
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