| Pages: [1] 2 :: one page |
|
|
| Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 0 post(s) |
Justin Zaine
164
   |
Posted - 2015.02.11 04:37:29 -
[1] - Quote
Hi everyone,
So is it fair to say that a large number of solo frig pvp'ers in FW space fly kitey fits?
Is it also fair to say that the majority of small engagements in FW space take place in plexes?
If so, why are the kitey pvp'ers of FW space being forced to begin the majority of their fights at 0 on the warp-in rather than have the ability to chose their initial engagement range like the pilot waiting inside the plex does?
When a kiting ship lands at 0 in a plex, a brawling frig can lock, scram and web down any frigate before he has time to break scram range literally 9 out of 10 times, even if the kiting frig overheats MWD while spamming the keep at range button.
I understand that this may originally have been a way to give the home team an advantage and make it tougher for any attacking fleets, but from my humble observations this mechanic just completely discourages the use of solo kitey ships in FW space.
If kiting ships are a predominantly solo thing, and if kiting ships are also useless due to plex mechanics, then is CCP discouraging solo PVP in these areas of space?
Someone please tell me i'm wrong or that I'm doing it wrong. I haven't been in LS for a long time, but it seems that for every 10 fights I take, of the 2 or 3 that don't want a fight and warp out, 5 or 6 just lock me down and kill me, and I end up leaving system with a "GF, thought I could break scram range before getting scrammed. Guess not." The other 2 or 3 are ships that I can take or break range from before being locked, like dessies or other kiting frigs.
Just to be clear, I'm talking about point-range kiters here. Ships like the shield Tristan or the Slicer. I don't fly with links, boosts or implants and while I see lots of others that do, that's not the issue here.
Just wondering if there's anything I should be doing differently or what your opinions about this mechanic are...And don't say "Fly a brawly ship." 
Wheeeeeee
|
Iyokus Patrouette
Sudden Buggery
Prolapse.
299
|
Posted - 2015.02.11 05:51:20 -
[2] - Quote
If you are the person waiting in the plex for someone to come in. whether you are kiter or brawler you have the advantage of picking your engagement range. your situation works both ways. what if i as a brawler land in a plex with a kiting ship sitting 20km off the landing point, suddenly i'm the sad panda.
I guess i personally don't see a problem, just a way to get an advantage.
---- Advocate for the initiation of purple coloured wormholes----
|
Justin Zaine
164
|
Posted - 2015.02.11 06:18:08 -
[3] - Quote
That is true, it can go both ways, but then think about it this way: I am not in FW, cannot capture plexes and therefore don't really have much reason to be in one unless warping in on someone who is already there (Who is in FW) and is attempting to capture said plex. 90% of the time I spend in plexes is a result of having d-scanned someone in there, and going in after them.
Wheeeeeee
|
Trey Kutoi
The Great Harmon Institute Of Technology
50
|
Posted - 2015.02.11 07:11:24 -
[4] - Quote
I know this is basically 'HTFU fly brawly' but there are more than just MWD/Point Kiting styles of gameplay.
MWD Kitey mitigates damage from brawly by range, if unable to make range, it dies in a fire.
Brawly however is not without its flaws, as it gets taken out by MWD kitey at long range, as well as by Scram Kitey
Scram Kitey is fun, because with your longer ranged weapons, +T2 long range ammo, you can punch out to kitey (and hope he has less tank than you) or use close range ammo and destroy brawly, but is more complicated to fly as Scram range is short and you're playing with the edge of it. Likewise, due to the need for trick fits or ewar, it won't last long if it gets caught too close to a pure brawler.
Then ofc, there's silly stuff like Dual Web Plate Merlin, Neut Brawl Tristan, and dualprop incursus to dictate range through unconventional methods.
Most of the trickfits don't work if you are already sitting at the range you want, as they capitalize on you being in scram/web range rather than catching up to you first. by being the one to slide the gate, you can choose who you want to fight, and by looking at their killboard, see what they're most likely going to fly.
On the plus side, if you bring a friend who is brawly to distract the guy on the beacon, or buy Links + Drugs, you can either avoid getting caught entirely, or just coast out of range (linked + drugged OH MWD does something insane like 6km/s, easily outside scram range in 2 seconds, maybe even within the cycle.) Likewise, lowering your own sig can give you more time to break away (A slicer was giving me grief, couldn't catch him. he eventually died to a smartbomber, and it turned out he had a head full of halos)
as much as all these things are valid though, you might want to just try waiting at your own optimal and see if anyone is stupid enough to engage. I know I am |
Samira Kernher
Praetorian Auxiliary Force
Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
1219
|
Posted - 2015.02.11 09:45:01 -
[5] - Quote
It is, indeed, home field advantage. First person in the plex gets to pick engagement range which will always give them the advantage. This isn't a kitey/brawly thing, since as said either you enter a plex as a kiter with a brawler inside and get scrammed/webbed, or you enter a plex as a brawler with a kiter inside and never get in range to do anything.
First person inside has the advantage. And that's fine. And if it discourages kitey ships... oh well? Kitey ships are the main ship to use in solo/small gang null, so it is good that there is an environment like FW that promotes AB brawlers. And there are plenty of AB soloers in FW.
And to note, this is speaking as someone who mainly flies kitey. I don't see anything wrong with the state of affairs. Plex mechanics are basically one of the only things that gives AB brawlers the ability to fight back against kiters. |
Arla Sarain
284
|
Posted - 2015.02.11 09:49:10 -
[6] - Quote
Justin Zaine wrote:don't really have much reason to be in one
Then the point of your lamenting is what?
If plexs are non of your business what does plex beacon mechanics have to do with kite/brawl?
As its been said it works both ways. It's not balanced or ideal or even anything.
Rock-Paper-Scissors is a ******** game gimmick when applied to anything but Rock-Paper-Scissors |
Interfectorem Tacet
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
24
|
Posted - 2015.02.11 11:08:35 -
[7] - Quote
The main thing I have found when flying kitey ships into a plex that you expect to be camped by a brawler is not to try and burn away from them but to just burn straight ahead with an OH MWD. You probably will still be scrammed and webbed etc but if you have a defensive web you have a chance to coast out of scram and reactivate your MWD.
This I have found works for me and I'm in Australia with a laggy connection most of the time. |
Doctor Knuckles
Black Fox Marauders
Spaceship Bebop
103
|
Posted - 2015.02.11 12:41:36 -
[8] - Quote
Arla Sarain wrote:Justin Zaine wrote:don't really have much reason to be in one
Then the point of your lamenting is what? If plexs are non of your business what does plex beacon mechanics have to do with kite/brawl?
I'd dare say because it's a great place to find fights?
|
Thanatos Marathon
Black Fox Marauders
Spaceship Bebop
410
|
Posted - 2015.02.11 15:24:48 -
[9] - Quote
Try dual prop. Also, had you stayed in BLFOX you could have just asked in Corp/Alliance chat. |
Moglarr
Caldari Colonial Defense Ministry
Templis CALSF
48
|
Posted - 2015.02.11 16:10:45 -
[10] - Quote
Justin Zaine wrote:...
When a kiting ship lands at 0 in a plex, a brawling frig can lock, scram and web down any frigate before he has time to break scram range literally 9 out of 10 times, even if the kiting frig overheats MWD while spamming the keep at range button.
...
Someone please tell me i'm wrong or that I'm doing it wrong. I haven't been in LS for a long time, but it seems that for every 10 fights I take, of the 2 or 3 that don't want a fight and warp out, 5 or 6 just lock me down and kill me, and I end up leaving system with a "GF, thought I could break scram range before getting scrammed. Guess not." The other 2 or 3 are ships that I can take or break range from before being locked, like dessies or other kiting frigs.
You are doing it wrong.
Do not start your fight by spamming keep at range if you land inside a plex with a brawler waiting at zero. Consider other ways to pull away.
I also strongly suggest using dscan and use the intel it gives you to pick your engagements.
|
|
|
Master Sergeant MacRobert
The Imperial Fedaykin
Amarrian Commandos
170
|
Posted - 2015.02.11 17:26:44 -
[11] - Quote
Yep, pressing keep range wont send you burning off in the direction you are pointing when you land.
Also, why do you need to go inside all of the time? Nowt wrong with flying a kite outside the plex at range of the accel gate and catch something as it comes in (yeah some but not all pilots slide before you can get them).
"Remedy this situation or you shall live out the rest of your life in a pain amplifier"
|
Ares Desideratus
Star Children Of Cain
202
|
Posted - 2015.02.11 17:46:32 -
[12] - Quote
The best tactic is to be the one waiting inside the plex. If you aren't the one waiting in the plex, it is usually a better idea to not warp into the plex at all and instead just forget about whatever it is waiting inside of it.
If you're the one warping in you are always at a disadvantage because you more than likely have no idea what ships are really in there. It might say there is one Vengeance sitting in the plex, but in reality there are two elite cruisers cloaked up with him, ready to pounce. And they may have more fire-power ready to warp-in when they get tackle, as well.
If you are going solo, range is your friend. Range is key. Wait in the plex and stick far away from the warp-in point and let the fight come to you. And be smart about it.
I'm a creator, preserver, destroyer, I like makin' stuff and doin' things ~~~~~~ 0% Efficiency in Fucks Given ~~~~~~~ nun wow mom unu
|
ValentinaDLM
Pyre Falcon Defence and Security
580
|
Posted - 2015.02.11 18:09:29 -
[13] - Quote
Master Sergeant MacRobert wrote:Yep, pressing keep range wont send you burning off in the direction you are pointing when you land.
Also, why do you need to go inside all of the time? Nowt wrong with flying a kite outside the plex at range of the accel gate and catch something as it comes in (yeah some but not all pilots slide before you can get them).
So that you can get a curse to come join your fight? Unless you are flying a kiting cruiser, I say best to stick to the inside of small and novice plexes. |
Justin Zaine
165
|
Posted - 2015.02.11 18:36:08 -
[14] - Quote
Helpful answers from everyone so far, thanks for the replies.
Master Sergeant MacRobert wrote:Yep, pressing keep range wont send you burning off in the direction you are pointing when you land.
Also, why do you need to go inside all of the time? Nowt wrong with flying a kite outside the plex at range of the accel gate and catch something as it comes in (yeah some but not all pilots slide before you can get them).
When I read this I thought "And what makes you think that I would want to burn straight ahead every time, wouldnt' that only make sense if he's directly behind me on the warp in?"
Then I realised that no, burning straight ahead is probably the best idea unless he's more than 1km in front of me. Turning 180 degrees and burning away from him (Like i've frequently been doing with the keep at range button) is probably costing me valuable time. Am I right? Or is there another reason for doing it?
Wheeeeeee
|
Justin Zaine
165
|
Posted - 2015.02.11 18:42:51 -
[15] - Quote
Thanatos Marathon wrote:Try dual prop. Also, had you stayed in BLFOX you could have just asked in Corp/Alliance chat.
I did ask. and the information I received basically confirmed my OP; It's very difficult for kiting frigs to slide out of scram range before getting scrammed.
I came here because I wanted to present this question to a wider knowledge base.
Wheeeeeee
|
Andre Vauban
Quantum Cats Syndicate
370
|
Posted - 2015.02.11 19:07:58 -
[16] - Quote
Justin Zaine wrote:
When a kiting ship lands at 0 in a plex, a brawling frig can lock, scram and web down any frigate before he has time to break scram range literally 9 out of 10 times, even if the kiting frig overheats MWD while spamming the keep at range button.
Unless the brawler has skirmish links, I have a good chance of breaking scram/web range. You are either doing it wrong or you are picking very bad ships/boosted players to warp in on.
QCATS is recruiting:-á
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=3896299
|
Thanatos Marathon
Black Fox Marauders
Spaceship Bebop
411
|
Posted - 2015.02.11 19:13:26 -
[17] - Quote
Justin Zaine wrote:It's very difficult for kiting frigs to slide out of scram range before getting scrammed.
This is the truth, especially if you fly without links or implants. There are tactics like picking the right angle to burn to based on your opponents ship, location, and velocity, etc. However at the end of the day if you are only pulling 4.5k heated a lot of stuff is going to catch you before you can pull out of heated scram and web range.
Many pilots that will stick around to fight a nano Slicer warping in on them figure they have a very good chance of catching said Slicer. I nabbed a Malediction the other day in my Algos, and it's been a long time since anything doing less than 9k a second has pulled range on me at a plex warp in (I don't fly AB fit ships very often). On the flip side, if I'm flying around in a kite ship and see lots of AB fits on someones kill board I generally won't give a second though to sliding the gate and trying to pull range.
|
Ares Desideratus
Star Children Of Cain
202
|
Posted - 2015.02.11 19:17:32 -
[18] - Quote
So if your strategy is to warp into the plex, and burn out of scram range ASAP, what's the tactic here?
My best guess would be to spam full speed and spam your overheated MWD and pray to God that you make it out of scram range?
(as it has been stated, pressing keep at range might likely make your ship turn all the way around and would be a huge waste of time)
That's a big gamble no matter what the situation is.
I'm pretty sure if the guy who's camping the plex is paying attention he has a very good chance at scramming just about anything that lands into the plex.
I'm a creator, preserver, destroyer, I like makin' stuff and doin' things ~~~~~~ 0% Efficiency in Fucks Given ~~~~~~~ nun wow mom unu
|
Justin Zaine
165
|
Posted - 2015.02.11 19:18:27 -
[19] - Quote
Andre Vauban wrote:Justin Zaine wrote:
When a kiting ship lands at 0 in a plex, a brawling frig can lock, scram and web down any frigate before he has time to break scram range literally 9 out of 10 times, even if the kiting frig overheats MWD while spamming the keep at range button.
Unless the brawler has skirmish links, I have a good chance of breaking scram/web range. You are either doing it wrong or you are picking very bad ships/boosted players to warp in on.
And what do you fly, may I ask?
My Slicer has 2 Nanofibers in the lows and get somewhere around 5.6km/s OH.
Wheeeeeee
|
Master Sergeant MacRobert
The Imperial Fedaykin
Amarrian Commandos
173
|
Posted - 2015.02.11 20:20:45 -
[20] - Quote
Justin Zaine wrote:Helpful answers from everyone so far, thanks for the replies. Master Sergeant MacRobert wrote:Yep, pressing keep range wont send you burning off in the direction you are pointing when you land.
Also, why do you need to go inside all of the time? Nowt wrong with flying a kite outside the plex at range of the accel gate and catch something as it comes in (yeah some but not all pilots slide before you can get them).
When I read this I thought "And what makes you think that I would want to burn straight ahead every time, wouldnt' that only make sense if he's directly behind me on the warp in?" Then I realised that no, burning straight ahead is probably the best idea unless he's more than 1km in front of me. Turning 180 degrees and burning away from him (Like i've frequently been doing with the keep at range button) is probably costing me valuable time. Am I right? Or is there another reason for doing it?
Situational. Some brawlers anticipate the straight on burn and position themselves ready for just that.
Other pilots will fly using their experience and fittings to ensure that you are flying into a trap. It's a lot to expect that you can "bust" an occupied plex with a kite ship or a brawler solo without some intel on the target. A well flown ship with sufficient scan res should catch you.
I have solo baited and caught Sentinels with a Cormorant simply under a ruse tha they think they know how I am fitted and with a fit and piloting that ensured I caught them and was able to solo kill what, on paper, should have been an easy kill for a Sentinel.
This is where Eve is at its best IMO. In the game of out witting your opponent and in deception, ploy or bait. Getting outcomes that are viewed unlikely or exceptional.
Otherwise you're playing the elitist power play version of Eve which is "I brought better links, faction mods, drugs, implants and ship hull than u did" thinking.
"Remedy this situation or you shall live out the rest of your life in a pain amplifier"
|
|
|
infra52x
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
32
|
Posted - 2015.02.12 01:46:18 -
[21] - Quote
Moglarr wrote:Justin Zaine wrote:...
When a kiting ship lands at 0 in a plex, a brawling frig can lock, scram and web down any frigate before he has time to break scram range literally 9 out of 10 times, even if the kiting frig overheats MWD while spamming the keep at range button.
...
Someone please tell me i'm wrong or that I'm doing it wrong. I haven't been in LS for a long time, but it seems that for every 10 fights I take, of the 2 or 3 that don't want a fight and warp out, 5 or 6 just lock me down and kill me, and I end up leaving system with a "GF, thought I could break scram range before getting scrammed. Guess not." The other 2 or 3 are ships that I can take or break range from before being locked, like dessies or other kiting frigs.
You are doing it wrong. Do not start your fight by spamming keep at range if you land inside a plex with a brawler waiting at zero. Consider other ways to pull away. I also strongly suggest using dscan and use the intel it gives you to pick your engagements.
I used D-scan, saw plex empty, jumped in all fat dumb and happy, and was face melted by 3 recons sitting on the warpin beacon.... |
Moglarr
Caldari Colonial Defense Ministry
Templis CALSF
50
|
Posted - 2015.02.12 02:25:32 -
[22] - Quote
infra52x wrote:Moglarr wrote:Justin Zaine wrote:...
When a kiting ship lands at 0 in a plex, a brawling frig can lock, scram and web down any frigate before he has time to break scram range literally 9 out of 10 times, even if the kiting frig overheats MWD while spamming the keep at range button.
...
Someone please tell me i'm wrong or that I'm doing it wrong. I haven't been in LS for a long time, but it seems that for every 10 fights I take, of the 2 or 3 that don't want a fight and warp out, 5 or 6 just lock me down and kill me, and I end up leaving system with a "GF, thought I could break scram range before getting scrammed. Guess not." The other 2 or 3 are ships that I can take or break range from before being locked, like dessies or other kiting frigs.
You are doing it wrong. Do not start your fight by spamming keep at range if you land inside a plex with a brawler waiting at zero. Consider other ways to pull away. I also strongly suggest using dscan and use the intel it gives you to pick your engagements. I used D-scan, saw plex empty, jumped in all fat dumb and happy, and was face melted by 3 recons sitting on the warpin beacon....
lol
|
Master Sergeant MacRobert
The Imperial Fedaykin
Amarrian Commandos
176
|
Posted - 2015.02.12 08:55:48 -
[23] - Quote
Yeah. Going into a medium solo without previous intel is less effective choice than going into a large at range, when there are enough pilots in local in unknowns.
Welcome to Recons Online in Low Sec.
"Remedy this situation or you shall live out the rest of your life in a pain amplifier"
|
Demerius Xenocratus
Federal Defense Union
Gallente Federation
71
|
Posted - 2015.02.14 10:49:10 -
[24] - Quote
This is good stuff.
1) Going into mediums in crowded/popular systems is gonna be risky at this point.
2) I fly a slicer pretty often that with my fit/skills and 8% worth of speed implants (zor's and a regular 3% is like 70m totally worth it) I get about 5500 m/s overheated. This is fast enough to slide past most people sitting at the beacon unless they have links, faction web/scram or both. If you can figure out who's likely piloting the other ship through some local detective work (easier in less crowded systems) and check out their profile or even their killboard you can often make an educated guess as to links/implants/shiny. Learn who flies with godmode link/snake/faction combos and avoid them; and learn which systems are popular amongst such pilots (hi heydieles!). Overheat mwd when you slide gate, spam your mwd key as soon as you land, burn straight ahead, barring perfect reaction time/positioning by the other pilot you should shoot past him as long as you're doing at least 5k.
You will get scammed and webbed the idea is to get nearly to speed with one mwd cycle to get outside point range. Keep in mind if you get scrammed you must reactivate mwd immediately when he loses scram because he's burning towards you with heated AB. And assuming you pull this off successfully you have to immediately turn into a 20k orbit to hold point as many brawlers will warp off as soon as they've missed you on the beacon.
3) No matter what you do there is an element of chance and if you happen to try this on an mwd fit brawler you'll die. Unless you fly a linked/snaked garmur; doing 9k overheated nothing will catch you.
In my opinion kiting is dominant currently in plex warfare because of the ability to dictate range and disengage easily; an AB brawler warping in on you is suicide while you can warp in on him with a better than 50/50 shot of burning past him. Brawler fits only excel in one situation (beacon camping) and they can still be bested there by a fast enough ship. |
Arla Sarain
288
|
Posted - 2015.02.14 11:23:38 -
[25] - Quote
Demerius Xenocratus wrote:
In my opinion kiting is dominant currently in plex warfare because of the ability to dictate range and disengage easily; an AB brawler warping in on you is suicide while you can warp in on him with a better than 50/50 shot of burning past him. Brawler fits only excel in one situation (beacon camping) and they can still be bested there by a fast enough ship.
So much truth in that one paragraph its likely to be cancerous.
This thread will now proceed ignoring it entirely and further comments about how kiting is weak will persist.
|
Ares Desideratus
Star Children Of Cain
206
|
Posted - 2015.02.14 14:00:12 -
[26] - Quote
A lot of people just don't have the skill or understanding to fight long range.
I'm a creator, preserver, destroyer, I like makin' stuff and doin' things ~~~~~~ 0% Efficiency in Fucks Given ~~~~~~~ nun wow mom unu
|
Plato Forko
Forko Nanorobotics
126
|
Posted - 2015.02.14 22:21:09 -
[27] - Quote
tried to master kiting but seems to require a lot of fast actions that don't work out too well when you're >50ms from TQ
There's nothin' like skating away from a fight with the hull on fire, some mods burned out and a cargohold full of loot.
See my terribad blog for stories.
|
Zarnak Wulf
Amarrian Vengeance
Team Amarrica
1843
|
Posted - 2015.02.14 22:40:04 -
[28] - Quote
AB Brawlers > MWD Brawlers > MWD Kiters > AB Brawlers... |
Demerius Xenocratus
Federal Defense Union
Gallente Federation
73
|
Posted - 2015.02.15 02:49:22 -
[29] - Quote
Zarnak Wulf wrote:AB Brawlers > MWD Brawlers > MWD Kiters > AB Brawlers... MWD brawler is by no means a sure win over a kiter. If the kiter is still faster and is paying attention he will either wreck you as you try to burn to scram range or warp out. It's highly uncommon for an MWD ship to sit on the button as an AB landing on him is game over.
Slicer especially is dangerous to try and run down because flying into scorch with zero transversal is...unpleasant. And you can switch to multifreq immediately if caught.
|
Ares Desideratus
Star Children Of Cain
206
|
Posted - 2015.02.15 02:55:40 -
[30] - Quote
An AB brawler is by no means a sure win over a MWD brawler either, I think his point stands and is true.
I'm a creator, preserver, destroyer, I like makin' stuff and doin' things ~~~~~~ 0% Efficiency in Fucks Given ~~~~~~~ nun wow mom unu
|
|
|
|
|
| |
|
| Pages: [1] 2 :: one page |
| First page | Previous page | Next page | Last page |