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Watch List- Require an Approval for Watch List Requests

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Mr Omniblivion GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation 377	Posted - 2015.02.13 20:30:39 - [1] - Quote The Watch List is a huge tool for free information in every region of space in Eve. I can add hostile super pilots into my watch list and immediately know as soon as they log in. If I see multiple super pilots logging in, I know that there is something going down that I should pay attention to. I can add other WH pilots in popular holes to my watchlist. If I'm rolling holes and see some well known escalation pilots logging in, I know to roll to their hole to pay them a visit. I can add Poitot Dot to my watchlist to see when he is going to roam around Deklein in his multiboxed maledictions looking for AFK ratter kills. And probably just dock up while he's online because I'm terrible at this game. I can tell if pilots move to another system or set up a log off trap in my system based on adding them to the watch list. All of this information is gained all because I added names to a list. That's it. Seeing when a character logs in is extremely valuable information- knowing when key pilots from your enemies are offline gives you an advantage. Knowing when someone is online allows us to evaluate play patterns to identify our prime window to strike or defend. "But this means that people can spam with watchlist requests" There could be an option to reject all watchlist requests. Also, watchlist spamming someone could be treated exactly the same as convo spamming someone- with the CCP Hammer. "But this means that I'd have to go click stuff to let people see me online" Once. Yes. But this also allows you to see who wants to watch you and figure out why. "What happens with our existing watch lists?" Everyone's watch list would probably be deleted to make this happen. Which is fine. I don't expect the vast majority of players to have more than a handful of players watchlisted that would actually accept their request.
Swiftstrike1 Swiftstrike Incorporated 864	Posted - 2015.02.14 02:06:32 - [2] - Quote I think this is an excellent idea. The watchlist should be repurposed as a Friends List that requires mutual consent from both parties. +1 Targeting, Sensors and ECM Overhaul
Ferni Ka'Nviiou Republic University Minmatar Republic 3749	Posted - 2015.02.14 04:12:21 - [3] - Quote The Watch List, I believe, is an information tool that is a vital part of EVE. For reasons that could be said better by other players, removing its ability to give this free information would simply make the game environment dull. A better compromise would be to send a notification to a player when he is Watch Listed, regardless of the 'Send Notification' option being unticked.
Lugh Crow-Slave 734	Posted - 2015.02.14 05:34:39 - [4] - Quote and HS newbros had no chance in a wardec ever again Fuel block colors
Grezh Federal Defense Union Gallente Federation 31	Posted - 2015.02.14 06:10:51 - [5] - Quote While I agree that the free part should be removed I believe that there are ways for making the information available for a price. One option would be something similar to kill rights except reversed; any player can put a price on someone's head along with a per reported sighting payout and any other pilot can anonymously (dem spais) report a sighting for a bit of cash. This system would have to either have a cooldown between reported sightings or allow the one seeking the info to be able to disable the reports at any time when they have enough.
Hrothgar Nilsson 446	Posted - 2015.02.14 06:29:43 - [6] - Quote I actually like this idea. I think that removing watchlisting as a tool for monitoring hostile players would see an increased focus on utilizing espionage to get that information. It's not as if there aren't organic, player-driven options available to get that information, such as: 1) having presence in and monitoring systems that are known/suspected to be used as bases for supers 2) infiltrating enemy corps and alliances to gain such information http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZTzA_xesrL8
Rivr Luzade Coreli Corporation The Kadeshi 1221	Posted - 2015.02.14 07:31:18 - [7] - Quote Mr Omniblivion wrote: I don't expect the vast majority of players to have more than a handful of players watchlisted that would actually accept their request. Which means you basically want to see the very point of the watch list removed. Their point is not primarily to see people log in/out who are friendly to you, but of people who are not. I have a couple of friendly people in my watch list, but the vast majority are people where I have an elevated interested in knowing when they are about to ruin my day. What you suggest is that massive conglomerations of players have an unfair advantage over smaller groups as these massive conglomerations have far more resources in terms of disposable alts to spread round and watch for people; thus turning a leveled play ground where everyone has the same advantages and disadvantages into a mountain range with deep chasms where you, among other equally resourceful entities, sit on the mountain tops and a big chunk of other entities at the bottom of the chasms. Sounds wonderful. Whether a player has logged in or out is only one part of the necessary information to determine actions. You do not necessarily know where they are, what they are actually doing and how the rest of their group is set up at that moment. These are all things you need to use actual players to find out and Watch Lists are the way to trigger actions to have a closer look at what's going on. Do Watch Lists prevent kills/losses? Only in very rare cases as not nearly enough people use the full potential of the WLs. Therefore, I do not see any need for change. Station Tab :: Agent Shuffling :: Double Standing Gain
Caleb Seremshur The Atomic Fallout Kids 482	Posted - 2015.02.14 09:46:08 - [8] - Quote Ferni Ka'Nviiou wrote: The Watch List, I believe, is an information tool that is a vital part of EVE. For reasons that could be said better by other players, removing its ability to give this free information would simply make the game environment dull. A better compromise would be to send a notification to a player when he is Watch Listed, regardless of the 'Send Notification' option being unticked. This is the most roundabout way of admitting you don't really have a reason to defend your argument but changing watchlisting is a bad idea and should be left alone. It's like suggesting a CIA agent watching a mark is really going to be able to report on his movements through observation while he's not actually observing them. Faction warfare pilot and solo/small gang PVP advocate
Raymond Moons Parallactic Veil 22	Posted - 2015.02.14 12:44:59 - [9] - Quote This is a good idea. It could be something set-able in corp/alliance to auto-allow watchlist requests for members and for everyone else you need their approval. Also for HS, agents location services could be improved so that you can pay for different levels of information.
Delegate Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation 62	Posted - 2015.02.14 13:42:45 - [10] - Quote Fully agreed. Free intel promotes risk avoidance and remove content from the game. Free intel promotes laziness and solo play. In wormholes especially its a schizophrenic mechanics: you don't have local but somehow you can monitor activity of selected accounts. Mr Omniblivion wrote: Everyone's watch list would probably be deleted to make this happen. Which is fine. I don't expect the vast majority of players to have more than a handful of players watchlisted that would actually accept their request. I would suggest minor tweaks to soften the transition. You should have a list of players that you granted watchlist permission. You should then be able to revoke watchlist permission at any time. At transition to new mechanics all current watchlists would default to GÇ£agreedGÇ¥. Players that care about watchlists would then be able to revoke unwanted permissions.
Elenahina Agony Unleashed Agony Empire 91	Posted - 2015.02.14 15:03:00 - [11] - Quote I just want the ability to reverse my watch list notifications. So it says I'm online when I log off. Agony Unleashed is Recruiting - Small Gang PvP in Null Sec
E1ev1n Unknown Crusade 0	Posted - 2015.02.14 15:26:27 - [12] - Quote Mr Omniblivion wrote: The Watch List is a huge tool for free information in every region of space in Eve. I can add hostile super pilots into my watch list and immediately know as soon as they log in. If I see multiple super pilots logging in, I know that there is something going down that I should pay attention to. I can add other WH pilots in popular holes to my watchlist. If I'm rolling holes and see some well known escalation pilots logging in, I know to roll to their hole to pay them a visit. I can add Poitot Dot to my watchlist to see when he is going to roam around Deklein in his multiboxed maledictions looking for AFK ratter kills. And probably just dock up while he's online because I'm terrible at this game. I can tell if pilots move to another system or set up a log off trap in my system based on adding them to the watch list. All of this information is gained all because I added names to a list. That's it. Seeing when a character logs in is extremely valuable information- knowing when key pilots from your enemies are offline gives you an advantage. Knowing when someone is online allows us to evaluate play patterns to identify our prime window to strike or defend. "But this means that people can spam with watchlist requests" There could be an option to reject all watchlist requests. Also, watchlist spamming someone could be treated exactly the same as convo spamming someone- with the CCP Hammer. "But this means that I'd have to go click stuff to let people see me online" Once. Yes. But this also allows you to see who wants to watch you and figure out why. "What happens with our existing watch lists?" Everyone's watch list would probably be deleted to make this happen. Which is fine. I don't expect the vast majority of players to have more than a handful of players watchlisted that would actually accept their request. You're joking right? This would completely remove the usefulness of a watchlist, often you will have friends in your channels you normally frequent but rarely will you have "reds" in a channel you chat in. Those reds are the ones that likely would not want you watchlisting them. In fact wardec watchlists would likely not be able to be used then and it ruins a well functioning feature of the game. Why would you want this? I could go along with this only if local was removed from every system in game (local player visible without talking in local).
E1ev1n Unknown Crusade 0	Posted - 2015.02.14 15:37:33 - [13] - Quote Caleb Seremshur wrote: Ferni Ka'Nviiou wrote: The Watch List, I believe, is an information tool that is a vital part of EVE. For reasons that could be said better by other players, removing its ability to give this free information would simply make the game environment dull. A better compromise would be to send a notification to a player when he is Watch Listed, regardless of the 'Send Notification' option being unticked. This is the most roundabout way of admitting you don't really have a reason to defend your argument but changing watchlisting is a bad idea and should be left alone. It's like suggesting a CIA agent watching a mark is really going to be able to report on his movements through observation while he's not actually observing them. This is the same argument I see used when people say that local should be removed. Not that local is a bad thing just that it should stay because because. I personally feel that watchlists should stay as is, they allow for some intel to be gathered without being intrusive or requiring you to be actively visually watching said individual, how else are you supposed to know that Timmy has come online, and you can now convo him to buy his 150k drone damage amplifiers in whichever market hub he is in. BTW Timmy only does private contracts for set prices to reduce the amount of tax he pays.
Godfrey Silvarna Arctic Light Inc. Arctic Light 280	Posted - 2015.02.14 15:43:00 - [14] - Quote Watch lists are a reasonable compromise to the problem that different time zones pose to multiplayer games. They give players from opposite ends of the globe a slim chance to interact with each other, voluntarily or involuntarily, Local on the other hand, needs to die in a fire.
Ralph King-Griffin Lords.Of.Midnight The Devil's Warrior Alliance 8903	Posted - 2015.02.14 16:25:13 - [15] - Quote You just killed the mercenary business. No. I'll agree it needs looking at but this basically invalidates it as a tool. If you want this then I want remote access to locator agents. "I'm also quite confident that you are laughing and it's the kind of laugh that gives normal people shivers." =]I[=
Murkar Omaristos The Alabaster Albatross Eternal Pretorian Alliance 70	Posted - 2015.02.14 17:16:30 - [16] - Quote -1 absolutely. Watchlist is important for wars etc.
afkalt Republic Military School Minmatar Republic 746	Posted - 2015.02.14 18:30:22 - [17] - Quote This just makes Supers even safer. -10 If you're getting the willies from the mere thought that people know you're online.....Maybe you should rethink your line of ships.
Paranoid Loyd 3881	Posted - 2015.02.14 18:38:09 - [18] - Quote Easy counter, just stay logged in all day if you don't want people to know when you are playing. "Gankers are just other players, not supernatural monsters who will get you if you don't follow some arbitrary superstition. Haul responsibly and without irrational fear." Masao Kurata Fix the Prospect!!!
Daichi Yamato Xero Security and Technologies 2271	Posted - 2015.02.14 18:46:32 - [19] - Quote id be open to the idea of merging watchlists and locator agents somehow. Or making the whole job more player driven. EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided" "So it will be up to a pilot to remain vigilant wherever they may be flying and be ready for anything at any time"
Colette Kassia Kassia Industrial Supply 53	Posted - 2015.02.14 18:56:59 - [20] - Quote Eliminating the use of Watch Lists for serendipitous intelligence gathering on random player sound reasonable. But I do think this free intel should be available for specific circumstances: - People you have kill-rights on - People who have kill-rights on you. - Targets of bounties you've opted for. (one-sided, the target should not be tipped off to who is hunting them) - All people on both sides of an active wardec. I think restricting it to that would be fine.
Rowells ANZAC ALLIANCE Fidelas Constans 1993	Posted - 2015.02.14 23:36:59 - [21] - Quote afkalt wrote: This just makes Supers even safer. -10 If you're getting the willies from the mere thought that people know you're online.....Maybe you should rethink your line of ships. While on the one hand in makes supers safer. Having a watch list already makes them pretty safe. If you have all your threats watch listed you can just wait until they're all offline. So you never actually have to risk too much. If you're about to dedicate capitals and you see your enemy has done logged in some scary pilots, isn't that keeping them safe? Took works both ways, and the current way it works isn't very encouraging to take a leap of faith.
Hrothgar Nilsson 447	Posted - 2015.02.15 09:27:24 - [22] - Quote Colette Kassia wrote: Eliminating the use of Watch Lists for serendipitous intelligence gathering on random players sounds reasonable. But I do think this free intel should be available for specific circumstances: - People you have kill-rights on - People who have kill-rights on you. - Targets of bounties you've opted for. (one-sided, the target should not be tipped off to who is hunting them) - All people on both sides of an active wardec. I think restricting it to that would be fine. If it were restricted to that, then you'd have shell corporation wardec watchlists, or small bounty opt-in watchlists. What you propose isn't a restriction, it's would in fact be a contractum trinius that would keep watchlists entirely intact. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZTzA_xesrL8
Mr Doctor Sex Machineguns 152	Posted - 2015.02.15 11:00:40 - [23] - Quote Eve is about counters to mechanics. Watch list counters log offs.
Colette Kassia Kassia Industrial Supply 53	Posted - 2015.02.15 11:10:45 - [24] - Quote Hrothgar Nilsson wrote: If it were restricted to that, then you'd have shell corporation wardec watchlists, or small bounty opt-in watchlists. What you propose isn't a restriction, it's would in fact be a contractum trinius that would keep watchlists entirely intact. Hmm. You are correct. So clearly the bounty watchlisting option would have to go. As would the free intel for the wardec-ing party. Should the recipient of a wardec be able to see their aggressors coming? Maybe. It would not be unfair. I do think the kill-rights parts should remain as they are.
Hrothgar Nilsson 447	Posted - 2015.02.15 11:41:06 - [25] - Quote The recipients of wardecs do have tools to see their aggressors. intel channels scouts (rear, foward, etc.) kill reports and killboards that state the location and time of ship losses and whodunnit local (enhanced by setting aggressors to red) overview (enhanced by setting aggressors to red) d-scan plain old eyeballs watching enemy ships, where they be, and what they be doing http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZTzA_xesrL8
159Pinky Under Heavy Fire Mordus Angels 11	Posted - 2015.02.15 13:13:06 - [26] - Quote Bad idea, yes this gives free intel to ppl who take the time to add other ppl to watchlist. So they invested something in it ( time ). You just want to avoid being added to a WL by hostiles for free ( an auto reject option ). System works just fine, I still need to get eyes in other systems to actually see what some of my WL ppl are doing. The fact that they are online only gives me some information. It's not like an I WIN button of information.
Hrothgar Nilsson 447	Posted - 2015.02.15 14:28:53 - [27] - Quote 159Pinky wrote: Bad idea, yes this gives free intel to ppl who take the time to add other ppl to watchlist. So they invested something in it ( time ). You just want to avoid being added to a WL by hostiles for free ( an auto reject option ). System works just fine, I still need to get eyes in other systems to actually see what some of my WL ppl are doing. The fact that they are online only gives me some information. It's not like an I WIN button of information. "People invested time in creating a list." So? "I have to do some other stuff after looking at the list" So? As I see it, it removes the element of surprise, lifts the fog of war, and is ultimately unearned information that discourages tactical gameplay. I'd rather see organic, novel, inventive, and innovative player-driven methods and solutions come more to the fore, rather than reliance on the AMT (Account Monitoring ToolGäó). http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZTzA_xesrL8
Phoenix Jones Isogen 5 1071	Posted - 2015.02.15 14:33:50 - [28] - Quote You can have both if you update the rules. 1) do the approval request for watch list 2) if you don't want approval request to go through, (you want to spy on them), it costs you ISk. Roughly 1 million Isk a day for concord to sanction the unapproved monitoring for wardec'd people. 3 million a day for non Non wardec'd people. If it seems high, remember a Large pos costs roughly 16 million a day, a small is 4 million daily. The numbers can be adjusted downward but there has to be a significant enough financial hit to prevent people from watch listing half of eve for free. 3) once a week, a person can pay concord 100 million ISk to get the number of people who have a person watch listed (the names are not revealed, just the number of people stalking them. the first two hours of a person being added to a watch list is free. Some basic regulations, some bribery, and something to address temporary roamers. Yaay!!!!
Hrothgar Nilsson 447	Posted - 2015.02.15 14:57:58 - [29] - Quote Phoenix Jones wrote: 2) if you don't want approval request to go through, (you want to spy on them) What's wrong with actually spying on them, or utilizing any number of existing mechanics and player-driven tactics performed during the course of actual gameplay to earn said information? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZTzA_xesrL8
Zepheros Naeonis TinklePee 16	Posted - 2015.02.15 18:00:54 - [30] - Quote I enjoy seeing when competitors log in and knowing when and where to find them, but let us be honest for a second, how the hell does a "watch list" even work? It makes about as much sense as local chat. They are both highly valued intelligence gathering tools with no effort required what so ever. I'm all aboard the train that thinks local chat is stupid and that all space should be chatless like WH unless you say something. Because "who" exactly knows you are in local chat? The invisible gods of New Eden who then broadcasts to all players? It makes no sense. On the same note, a watch list is working in a similar fashion. You click a few times and bam, you can now stalk someone with no effort on your part. It is unrealistic in every sense. At least make a game out of it. Design a module that launches trackers that latch onto ships, with the obvious limitation being you can only track said ship. Hit a pod with a tracker? Well now you can track every ship that pod enters. User pod jumps? Tough luck. I say remove watch list all together and introduce something else that takes effort.
Rivr Luzade Coreli Corporation The Kadeshi 1224	Posted - 2015.02.15 18:06:46 - [31] - Quote Zepheros Naeonis wrote: Because "who" exactly knows you are in local chat? The invisible gods of New Eden who then broadcasts to all players? It makes no sense. The gates know that you are there. Your Pod is connected to a subspace communications beacon (that thing that is not reachable in W-space. ) that is available in all K-space. The gates transmit that info to other beacons and that's people know you are in a system and that's why they see you log in. Welcome to a world of almost total surveillance. Station Tab :: Agent Shuffling :: Double Standing Gain
Hrothgar Nilsson 448	Posted - 2015.02.15 18:26:48 - [32] - Quote Rivr Luzade wrote: The gates know that you are there. Your Pod is connected to a subspace communications beacon (that thing that is not reachable in W-space. ) that is available in all K-space. The gates transmit that info to other beacons and that's people know you are in a system and that's why they see you log in. Welcome to a world of almost total surveillance. Thanks for sharing the lore. The watchlist mechanic has nothing to do with subspace beacon lore. Wormhole pilots show up on watchlists as well. The watchlist is a watchlist. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZTzA_xesrL8
Rivr Luzade Coreli Corporation The Kadeshi 1224	Posted - 2015.02.15 18:33:29 - [33] - Quote The gates/beacons recognize that you go on/offline and distribute that information. Station Tab :: Agent Shuffling :: Double Standing Gain
Hrothgar Nilsson 448	Posted - 2015.02.15 18:34:52 - [34] - Quote Rivr Luzade wrote: The gates/beacons recognize that you go on/offline and distribute that information. Thanks for the lore. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZTzA_xesrL8
McChicken Combo HalfMayo The Happy Meal 308	Posted - 2015.02.15 18:36:14 - [35] - Quote There seems to be a lot of concern that this would severely impact the wardec and mercenary business. How about watch lists only work in highsec? In lowsec there is a delay of 30 minutes. In nullsec & WH it doesn't work at all. It would be another feature that separates the security type. It is fairly simple lore wise to draw a story up to justify this. ~ Bookmarks in overview ~ Fleet improvements
Zepheros Naeonis TinklePee 16	Posted - 2015.02.15 20:57:23 - [36] - Quote Rivr Luzade wrote: Zepheros Naeonis wrote: Because "who" exactly knows you are in local chat? The invisible gods of New Eden who then broadcasts to all players? It makes no sense. The gates know that you are there. Your Pod is connected to a subspace communications beacon (that thing that is not reachable in W-space. ) that is available in all K-space. The gates transmit that info to other beacons and that's people know you are in a system and that's why they see you log in. Welcome to a world of almost total surveillance. Did not know this, thanks for sharing the info. Hrothgar Nilsson wrote: The watchlist mechanic has nothing to do with subspace beacon lore. Wormhole pilots show up on watchlists as well. The watchlist is a watchlist. edit: eh, I guess if the gates track that as well, it wouldn't be "too" hard to have a watch list feature implimented from a realistic/lore stand point. Although you do make a point regarding pilots in WH space.
Drez Arthie Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation 17	Posted - 2015.02.15 23:03:53 - [37] - Quote How about replacing watch list with something less granular? For example, corporation or alliance information could show number of pilots online, as well as total membership.
Alruan Shadowborn InterSun Freelance SONS of BANE 30	Posted - 2015.02.15 23:16:43 - [38] - Quote Mr Omniblivion wrote: The Watch List is a huge tool for free information in every region of space in Eve. I can add hostile super pilots into my watch list and immediately know as soon as they log in. If I see multiple super pilots logging in, I know that there is something going down that I should pay attention to. I can add other WH pilots in popular holes to my watchlist. If I'm rolling holes and see some well known escalation pilots logging in, I know to roll to their hole to pay them a visit. I can add Poitot Dot to my watchlist to see when he is going to roam around Deklein in his multiboxed maledictions looking for AFK ratter kills. And probably just dock up while he's online because I'm terrible at this game. I can tell if pilots move to another system or set up a log off trap in my system based on adding them to the watch list. All of this information is gained all because I added names to a list. That's it. Seeing when a character logs in is extremely valuable information- knowing when key pilots from your enemies are offline gives you an advantage. Knowing when someone is online allows us to evaluate play patterns to identify our prime window to strike or defend. [/i]. It is not just the fact someone is on a list, but rather the fact that the people on that list employ predictable behaviour. You see WH dwellers online so you believe they are going to be ratting, why? Because they are predictable. You see, if people do not act predictably, the only thing a watchlist tells you, is that they are online.
Alruan Shadowborn InterSun Freelance SONS of BANE 30	Posted - 2015.02.15 23:25:14 - [39] - Quote Zepheros Naeonis wrote: Rivr Luzade wrote: Zepheros Naeonis wrote: Because "who" exactly knows you are in local chat? The invisible gods of New Eden who then broadcasts to all players? It makes no sense. The gates know that you are there. Your Pod is connected to a subspace communications beacon (that thing that is not reachable in W-space. ) that is available in all K-space. The gates transmit that info to other beacons and that's people know you are in a system and that's why they see you log in. Welcome to a world of almost total surveillance. Did not know this, thanks for sharing the info. Hrothgar Nilsson wrote: The watchlist mechanic has nothing to do with subspace beacon lore. Wormhole pilots show up on watchlists as well. The watchlist is a watchlist. edit: eh, I guess if the gates track that as well, it wouldn't be "too" hard to have a watch list feature implimented from a realistic/lore stand point. Although you do make a point regarding pilots in WH space. Clone's clearly have a link back to a network in K Space, otherwise when you were podded in a WH you would suffer permadeath as the K space clone would not know of your death. Therefore, when you log on or off, the link back to your Medical clone activates or deactivates. Not too big a leap on that
Hrothgar Nilsson 448	Posted - 2015.02.16 00:17:25 - [40] - Quote What do lore and roleplay have to do with the discussion at hand? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZTzA_xesrL8
Alruan Shadowborn InterSun Freelance SONS of BANE 30	Posted - 2015.02.16 00:28:26 - [41] - Quote Hrothgar Nilsson wrote: What do lore and roleplay have to do with the discussion at hand? duh You argued however that it had nothing to do with subspace beacons (hint- this is lore) as WH players showed up on it So you argue with lore reasoning then complain that lore has nothing to do with it when you are proven wrong. The watchlist aids both offense and defence, as has been pointed out, the important point is that it aids conflict, and in a game about conflict, that is pretty good incentive
Alvatore DiMarco Capricious Endeavours Ltd 3499	Posted - 2015.02.16 00:39:01 - [42] - Quote When CCP wakes up and deletes all supers from the game, there won't be forum threads anymore devoted to "does this or that make supers too safe?" and people won't reply to feature threads saying "so on and so forth solely because it affects supers in a way that I like" without considering other applications. -1 to making the watchlist into a friends list. EVE is about a lot of things, but friends are not what EVE is about. The ability to add people to your watchlist in order to monitor their online/offline status (which does not give you any more information than that) is very important to both sides of the hunter/prey paradigm in EVE and has quality-of-life applications as well. Simply being able to add people to your contacts without their consent, watchlisted or not, also has quality-of-life uses. To the other person who dislikes solo play: I dislike nullsec politics but you don't hear anything from me about squashing it.
afkalt Republic Military School Minmatar Republic 747	Posted - 2015.02.16 08:15:45 - [43] - Quote This is hilarious. 'How can the lore explain a watch list. It makes no sense' Apparently you've no problem with magically disappearing from space and being untouchable though......
Arya Regnar Darwins Right Hand 667	Posted - 2015.02.16 09:25:25 - [44] - Quote Also remove local. Ohhhhh so deadly! EvE-Mail me if you need anything.
Amarisen Gream The ArK's Hammer ArK Alliance 65	Posted - 2015.02.16 09:51:46 - [45] - Quote Lol. So watch list needs some love. So do NPC agents And so much else. Though I did like the idea of remote access to locator agents. But, I would go even farther - allow Sov holders to recruit freelance intelligence officers that can work out of their stations. --for low/high sec replace all the agents with a single agent which can do more than just one job. xoxo Amarisen Gream
John Ratcliffe Red Federation RvB - RED Federation 288	Posted - 2015.02.16 09:53:45 - [46] - Quote Stupid idea is stupid. No. Plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose
Xe'Cara'eos A Big Enough Lever 225	Posted - 2015.02.16 13:22:03 - [47] - Quote Mr Omniblivion wrote: ... "But this means that people can spam with watchlist requests" There could be an option to reject all watchlist requests. Also, watchlist spamming someone could be treated exactly the same as convo spamming someone- with the CCP Hammer. ... it could be like corp applications, you apply to be on someone's watch list, and you send it once, and it sits their in their 'watch list applications' tab, they can then accept, decline, or block that person from requesting them (and yes, this would need a list of watch-blocked players for when someone goofs up and wants to un-block someone, and one of watch-accepted players for when someone goofs up the other way) For posting an idea into F&I: come up with idea, try and think how people could abuse this, try to fix your idea - loop the process until you can't see how it could be abused, then post to the forums to let us figure out how to abuse it..... If your idea can be abused, it [u]WILL[/u] be.
Hrothgar Nilsson 448	Posted - 2015.02.16 16:24:03 - [48] - Quote Alruan Shadowborn wrote: Hrothgar Nilsson wrote: What do lore and roleplay have to do with the discussion at hand? duh You argued however that it had nothing to do with subspace beacons (hint- this is lore) as WH players showed up on it So you argue with lore reasoning then complain that lore has nothing to do with it when you are proven wrong. The watchlist aids both offense and defence, as has been pointed out, the important point is that it aids conflict, and in a game about conflict, that is pretty good incentive "I think there should be watchlist because subspace beacons". That is really what you're saying. Instead of discussing a mechanic on actual its merits and dismerits, your argument is simply "because lore". http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZTzA_xesrL8
Mr Omniblivion GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation 391	Posted - 2015.02.17 19:34:32 - [49] - Quote Thus far, the only real arguments I've seen are from the high sec war club. For those of you (most of you) that don't know how supercaps work- the pilot in your super is locked to that ship 99% of the time. Only in rare instances do you have an actual sitter pilot for your capital ship. Often times, like in the major coalitions, sitters are banned. Therefore, one pilot is entombed in a flying space coffin indefinitely. Adding that pilot to the watch list is more than just "seeing when he is online". When that pilot is online, a super is in space. If we see many hostile super pilots logging in, they are likely going on an op. Better yet, we can immediately use a locator and find out where that player is right when they log in. Are highsec wars really that sad to where you have to completely rely on a watchlist in order to entice a conflict? Couldn't locators also be used, or, you know, local? Or do most highsec war guys just sit around waiting for their watchlist to light up to go do things. If you're saying that highsec war decs would die out solely because of the removal of a watchlist, then maybe they should die out, because that's pretty pathetic. THAT SAID, I would be in favor of your wardec targets also showing up on your watchlist when it is an active CONCORD war AND those players are in highsec. Having wars also show targets in low/null space would mean that major alliances could just plop in a few alts into an alt corp and dec every major alliance, ending up where we are now. We (goons) probably have the best alert network in the game- between watchlists, intel channels, external tools, etc. I am suggesting that the watchlist is too much free information, even though we currently use it to its full extent, and that making the suggested changes would benefit the game overall.
Zura Namee The Milkmen 0	Posted - 2015.02.17 20:44:36 - [50] - Quote Mr Omniblivion wrote: Thus far, the only real arguments I've seen are from the high sec war club. For those of you (most of you) that don't know how supercaps work- the pilot in your super is locked to that ship 99% of the time. Only in rare instances do you have an actual sitter pilot for your capital ship. Often times, like in the major coalitions, sitters are banned. Therefore, one pilot is entombed in a flying space coffin indefinitely. Adding that pilot to the watch list is more than just "seeing when he is online". When that pilot is online, a super is in space. If we see many hostile super pilots logging in, they are likely going on an op. Better yet, we can immediately use a locator and find out where that player is right when they log in. Are highsec wars really that sad to where you have to completely rely on a watchlist in order to entice a conflict? Couldn't locators also be used, or, you know, local? Or do most highsec war guys just sit around waiting for their watchlist to light up to go do things. If you're saying that highsec war decs would die out solely because of the removal of a watchlist, then maybe they should die out, because that's pretty pathetic. THAT SAID, I would be in favor of your wardec targets also showing up on your watchlist when it is an active CONCORD war AND those players are in highsec. Having wars also show targets in low/null space would mean that major alliances could just plop in a few alts into an alt corp and dec every major alliance, ending up where we are now. We (goons) probably have the best alert network in the game- between watchlists, intel channels, external tools, etc. I am suggesting that the watchlist is too much free information, even though we currently use it to its full extent, and that making the suggested changes would benefit the game overall. I agree 100%. Getting intel should involve players actively going to get it, instead of just having a name on a list that tells them everything they need to know.
afkalt Republic Military School Minmatar Republic 748	Posted - 2015.02.17 21:05:07 - [51] - Quote Again, no. Because logging off is a thing. If you can "hide" in 100%, perfect untouchable safety of not being logged in, watch lists are counterbalanced. What use is intel if a pilot can PERFECTLY hide by going offline? How am I suppose to get intel if it is possible to put the pilot in a place you can never find? Is he just hard to find, or not there? Schrodinger's pilot....not fun or remotely balanced. Ed: Sounds a lot more like your actual problem is not being able to get out of supers. I'd support that being altered as I disagree with it.
Mr Omniblivion GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation 394	Posted - 2015.02.17 21:09:58 - [52] - Quote Hi, locator agents show where a pilot is located, even if they're offline. Being able to see exactly when someone comes online from across the galaxy is pretty dumb. Especially if you know exactly what ship they are flying.
afkalt Republic Military School Minmatar Republic 748	Posted - 2015.02.17 21:13:13 - [53] - Quote And if they're not there when you get there, are the offline? Or have they moved? The problem still seems to be rooted in supers. Because it's literally not a problem for ANYONE else.
Rivr Luzade Coreli Corporation The Kadeshi 1234	Posted - 2015.02.17 21:13:30 - [54] - Quote Zura Namee wrote: I agree 100%. Getting intel should involve players actively going to get it, instead of just having a name on a list that tells them everything they need to know. Should it? And, who is going to do it? Who do you think is social enough in EVE to give up a slot on their computer to put an active alt into a system to watch people all the time or on request and then cannot do anything else with that char/slot? Do you think there are that many reliable people who'd like to do that? There isn't even enough people in big alliances to properly distribute jobs like tower maintenance, logistics, industry and the likes among the players, because on the one hand, they are just unreliable and increased risk, and on the other hand, they don't want to do it. Players do not want to do things like this, which require effort, players want it the easy way. And my scenario described above is not the easy way, it's going to be like in my past experience when alliance leadership repeatedly asks for scouts around the area and no one lifts a finger, when FCs ask for scouts for the fleet or to check systems of known hostiles and no one lifts a finger. As described before, the watchlist gives you no intel. It only provides 1 piece of information with which you cannot do anything. I have several titan pilots on my WL, their pilot info window contains some bits about their last whereabouts from my last visual on them. Now, if I see them log in again, days, weeks later and I check on them before an op, I cannot count on that info anymore. They could be anywhere, because pilots and ships move in space. I need to gather more info, via Locator agents and other players to give live info from their location. WL logon/offskis are a mere piece in a bigger puzzle of intel gathering. You need other tools and more importantly other players to gather precise intel on their current location, what is in the system, in space, on the titan in terms of numbers and ship types, how many more Supers are in the system/in the area even, where are their cynos, and so on. No WL can give you that information, it only triggers a more intensive search for these numerous other parts of information. By saying that "getting intel should involve players actively to get it, instead of having a name on the list that tells you everything you need to know", you have just displayed in marvelous clarity that you are, firstly, a pilot who does not understand how intel gathering works, and secondly, are a pilot who fits wonderfully into my above scenario of a pilot who just wants things and not lift a finger. Congratulations for dismantling yourself. Station Tab :: Agent Shuffling :: Double Standing Gain
Mr Omniblivion GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation 394	Posted - 2015.02.17 21:17:48 - [55] - Quote Rivr Luzade wrote: Should it? And, who is going to do it? Who do you think is social enough in EVE to give up a slot on their computer to put an active alt into a system to watch people all the time or on request and then cannot do anything else with that char/slot? Do you think there are that many reliable people who'd like to do that? There isn't even enough people in big alliances to properly distribute jobs like tower maintenance, logistics, industry and the likes among the players, because on the one hand, they are just unreliable and increased risk, and on the other hand, they don't want to do it. Players do not want to do things like this, which require effort, players want it the easy way. And my scenario described above is not the easy way, it's going to be like in my past experience when alliance leadership repeatedly asks for scouts around the area and no one lifts a finger, when FCs ask for scouts for the fleet or to check systems of known hostiles and no one lifts a finger. This is why Kadeshi had to buy their space instead of taking it over. All of the things you mention above are already done at coalition levels. Maybe not your coalition.
Rivr Luzade Coreli Corporation The Kadeshi 1234	Posted - 2015.02.17 21:22:10 - [56] - Quote Mr Omniblivion wrote: This is why Kadeshi had to buy their space instead of taking it over. All of the things you mention above are already done at coalition levels. Maybe not your coalition. That is before my time and to be quite frank here, I find it disgusting that you just gave up that space to them instead of fighting for it. But I guess, Phoebe was just too close to commit to a fight. I am not talking about N3 or CFC in particular, this is experience from prior alliances and organization. By the way, when can we get access to your mentioned 3rd-party tools? Do you want to publish them voluntarily or do we need to petition CCP like in the olden days when CFC had their internal standings display software while the rest of the game had not, which in the end forced CCP to introduce such a mechanic into the game at large? Station Tab :: Agent Shuffling :: Double Standing Gain
Zura Namee The Milkmen 0	Posted - 2015.02.17 21:26:44 - [57] - Quote Rivr Luzade wrote: By saying that "getting intel should involve players actively to get it, instead of having a name on the list that tells you everything you need to know", you have just displayed in marvelous clarity that you are, firstly, a pilot who does not understand how intel gathering works, and secondly, are a pilot who fits wonderfully into my above scenario of a pilot who just wants things and not lift a finger. Congratulations for dismantling yourself. Project harder why don't you. I'm all for people actually working for intel, and now you're trying to spin that as me wanting people to go get intel for me. Your mental gymnastics don't change the fact that having the watchlist invalidates something that could be a job for people to actually do.
Mr Omniblivion GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation 396	Posted - 2015.02.17 22:01:51 - [58] - Quote It's amusing how many people really don't understand how the mechanics actually impact the game. Watchlist as it stands is bad because it allows hostile forces to immediately know, for free, when a hostile fleet or key players are online. Without being able to have this free intel, the only way that you would know if a hostile key person or fleet is online is if you were in the same system, or had eyes on the ground. Furthermore, the only way that the hostiles would know that you were online was if they had direct eyes on you- preferably when you hotdrop them :)
BeBopAReBop RhubarbPie Brawlers Inc. 1442	Posted - 2015.02.17 22:10:05 - [59] - Quote Honestly this just sounds like a pain in the arse. People have pointed out that watchlists are important when using locator agents, but wouldn't rolling this feature into locates cause the same "problems" (and I use the word lightly) that you were describing in your original post? This just seems like you're trying to fix a problem that isn't there, and increase reliance on local chat for intel. Finally, think about the impact this would have on w-space. If you were camping someone's hole, you would have no indication if they were online or off without returning to k-space (assuming of course that locators provided this functionality). This primarily adds long periods of waiting, for little to no benefit. New player resources: Uni Wiki - General Info Eve Altruist - PvP Belligerent Undesirables - High Sec Pvp
Zepheros Naeonis TinklePee 16	Posted - 2015.02.18 09:25:15 - [60] - Quote afkalt wrote: This is hilarious. 'How can the lore explain a watch list. It makes no sense' Apparently you've no problem with magically disappearing from space and being untouchable though...... One ridiculous problem at a time, sir.
Frostys Virpio The Mjolnir Bloc The Bloc 1593	Posted - 2015.02.18 15:29:54 - [61] - Quote BeBopAReBop RhubarbPie wrote: Honestly this just sounds like a pain in the arse. People have pointed out that watchlists are important when using locator agents, but wouldn't rolling this feature into locates cause the same "problems" (and I use the word lightly) that you were describing in your original post? This just seems like you're trying to fix a problem that isn't there, and increase reliance on local chat for intel. Finally, think about the impact this would have on w-space. If you were camping someone's hole, you would have no indication if they were online or off without returning to k-space (assuming of course that locators provided this functionality). This primarily adds long periods of waiting, for little to no benefit. WH space is supposed to be full of secret and unknown stuff but it's ok to know when someone is online in god know which whormhole in god know which part of the universe just because you added the name to a list?
Syn Shi School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State 122	Posted - 2015.02.18 18:35:50 - [62] - Quote Mr Omniblivion wrote: Thus far, the only real arguments I've seen are from the high sec war club. For those of you (most of you) that don't know how supercaps work- the pilot in your super is locked to that ship 99% of the time. Only in rare instances do you have an actual sitter pilot for your capital ship. Often times, like in the major coalitions, sitters are banned. Therefore, one pilot is entombed in a flying space coffin indefinitely. Adding that pilot to the watch list is more than just "seeing when he is online". When that pilot is online, a super is in space. If we see many hostile super pilots logging in, they are likely going on an op. Better yet, we can immediately use a locator and find out where that player is right when they log in. Are highsec wars really that sad to where you have to completely rely on a watchlist in order to entice a conflict? Couldn't locators also be used, or, you know, local? Or do most highsec war guys just sit around waiting for their watchlist to light up to go do things. If you're saying that highsec war decs would die out solely because of the removal of a watchlist, then maybe they should die out, because that's pretty pathetic. THAT SAID, I would be in favor of your wardec targets also showing up on your watchlist when it is an active CONCORD war AND those players are in highsec. Having wars also show targets in low/null space would mean that major alliances could just plop in a few alts into an alt corp and dec every major alliance, ending up where we are now. We (goons) probably have the best alert network in the game- between watchlists, intel channels, external tools, etc. I am suggesting that the watchlist is too much free information, even though we currently use it to its full extent, and that making the suggested changes would benefit the game overall. Hi sec pirates who want to get rid of the watch list only want to do it so others cannot see that they are there with their 4-5 friends/alts. They feel entitled to be able to carry out their activities without any sort of consequence.
159Pinky Under Heavy Fire Mordus Angels 11	Posted - 2015.02.18 19:53:34 - [63] - Quote Mr Omniblivion wrote: Thus far, the only real arguments I've seen are from the high sec war club. For those of you (most of you) that don't know how supercaps work- the pilot in your super is locked to that ship 99% of the time. Only in rare instances do you have an actual sitter pilot for your capital ship. Often times, like in the major coalitions, sitters are banned. Therefore, one pilot is entombed in a flying space coffin indefinitely. Adding that pilot to the watch list is more than just "seeing when he is online". When that pilot is online, a super is in space. If we see many hostile super pilots logging in, they are likely going on an op. Better yet, we can immediately use a locator and find out where that player is right when they log in. Are highsec wars really that sad to where you have to completely rely on a watchlist in order to entice a conflict? Couldn't locators also be used, or, you know, local? Or do most highsec war guys just sit around waiting for their watchlist to light up to go do things. If you're saying that highsec war decs would die out solely because of the removal of a watchlist, then maybe they should die out, because that's pretty pathetic. THAT SAID, I would be in favor of your wardec targets also showing up on your watchlist when it is an active CONCORD war AND those players are in highsec. Having wars also show targets in low/null space would mean that major alliances could just plop in a few alts into an alt corp and dec every major alliance, ending up where we are now. We (goons) probably have the best alert network in the game- between watchlists, intel channels, external tools, etc. I am suggesting that the watchlist is too much free information, even though we currently use it to its full extent, and that making the suggested changes would benefit the game overall.
Frostys Virpio The Mjolnir Bloc The Bloc 1593	Posted - 2015.02.18 20:50:58 - [64] - Quote Syn Shi wrote: Hi sec pirates who want to get rid of the watch list only want to do it so others cannot see that they are there with their 4-5 friends/alts. They feel entitled to be able to carry out their activities without any sort of consequence. You seem to feel entitled to knowing when someone logged on without having to look out for them.
Rivr Luzade Coreli Corporation The Kadeshi 1235	Posted - 2015.02.18 21:08:03 - [65] - Quote Frostys Virpio wrote: Syn Shi wrote: Hi sec pirates who want to get rid of the watch list only want to do it so others cannot see that they are there with their 4-5 friends/alts. They feel entitled to be able to carry out their activities without any sort of consequence. You seem to feel entitled to knowing when someone logged on without having to look out for them. You need to have seen them first before you can add them to your WL. I guess, losing a ship or watching others dying to a single wardeccer with 5 neutral logi alts/friends does not count as "without any sort of consequences". Station Tab :: Agent Shuffling :: Double Standing Gain
afkalt Republic Military School Minmatar Republic 748	Posted - 2015.02.18 22:24:58 - [66] - Quote Also finding it amusing that it is reasonable to expect 23/7 spying by people but leaving the account logged in to ruin the point of a watch list is unacceptable. The fundamental complaint is supers. So add it to that list instead.
Antillie Sa'Kan KarmaFleet Goonswarm Federation 919	Posted - 2015.02.18 23:09:43 - [67] - Quote E1ev1n wrote: This is the same argument I see used when people say that local should be removed. Not that local is a bad thing just that it should stay because because. I personally feel that watchlists should stay as is, they allow for some intel to be gathered without being intrusive or requiring you to be actively visually watching said individual, how else are you supposed to know that Timmy has come online, and you can now convo him to buy his 150k drone damage amplifiers in whichever market hub he is in. BTW Timmy only does private contracts for set prices to reduce the amount of tax he pays. EVE Mail already does this. Free intel is bad. +1
Mr Omniblivion GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation 401	Posted - 2015.02.18 23:23:43 - [68] - Quote afkalt wrote: Also finding it amusing that it is reasonable to expect 23/7 spying by people but leaving the account logged in to ruin the point of a watch list is unacceptable. The fundamental complaint is supers. So add it to that list instead. Luckily there are a ton of other pilots in the Republic Military School that could probably help you with this venture. Having an option to deny a watchlist request is an advantage to any roaming ganking fleet or wh group that wants to ambush a target. Without watchlists, it takes boots on the ground to know when/where a hostile fleet is. Otherwise, we can easily tell when someone pulls a logoffski in one of our systems. I mean, I don't really care if this isn't fixed, because I said earlier, we're already using it to 100% capacity and reaping every benefit out of the watchlist imaginable. It just seems like this is a logical choice for a re-evaluation due to the nature of Eve.
Mr Omniblivion GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation 401	Posted - 2015.02.18 23:26:34 - [69] - Quote Note: you don't even need to "remove" watchlists. Just enable an option for people to "deny" watchlist requests or require approval for watch list requests. If John Doe still wants to sell goods via trade while he's online, then he can select the option of "auto approve". If Mr Titan Pilot doesn't want anyone to know when he's on, he can select the "auto reject" option. Rather than set the watchlist to each individual in a corporation, there could be an option for "Allow Corporation" or "Allow Alliance".
Amyclas Amatin SUNDERING Goonswarm Federation 609	Posted - 2015.02.18 23:35:52 - [70] - Quote I too have watchlisted half the galaxy... It would be a different landscape when the watchlist gone. For more information on the New Order of High-Sec, please visit: http://www.minerbumping.com/ Remember that whenever you have a bad day in EVE, the correct reponse is "Thank you CCP, may I please have another?"
Hrothgar Nilsson 465	Posted - 2015.02.19 05:02:31 - [71] - Quote Rivr Luzade wrote: Frostys Virpio wrote: Syn Shi wrote: Hi sec pirates who want to get rid of the watch list only want to do it so others cannot see that they are there with their 4-5 friends/alts. They feel entitled to be able to carry out their activities without any sort of consequence. You seem to feel entitled to knowing when someone logged on without having to look out for them. You need to have seen them first before you can add them to your WL. I guess, losing a ship or watching others dying to a single wardeccer with 5 neutral logi alts/friends does not count as "without any sort of consequences". No, you don't need to have actually "seen them" in the game. All one needs to do is look at the Zkillboard/eve-kill, or evewho.com for a few minutes, and copy-paste names into the EVE client, and add them to your watchlist. When I made watchlists of supercap pilots, all I had to do was look at eve-kill and copy-paste a list of names. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZTzA_xesrL8
Rivr Luzade Coreli Corporation The Kadeshi 1235	Posted - 2015.02.19 07:08:46 - [72] - Quote Hrothgar Nilsson wrote: Rivr Luzade wrote: Frostys Virpio wrote: Syn Shi wrote: Hi sec pirates who want to get rid of the watch list only want to do it so others cannot see that they are there with their 4-5 friends/alts. They feel entitled to be able to carry out their activities without any sort of consequence. You seem to feel entitled to knowing when someone logged on without having to look out for them. You need to have seen them first before you can add them to your WL. I guess, losing a ship or watching others dying to a single wardeccer with 5 neutral logi alts/friends does not count as "without any sort of consequences". No, you don't need to have actually "seen them" in the game. All I had to do when I made watchlists of supercap pilots, was look at eve-kill and copy-paste a list of names. The subtopic at hand was war decs, not supers. Nevertheless, "watching others dying" applies as well as you need to do some research to find them regardless. Station Tab :: Agent Shuffling :: Double Standing Gain
Hrothgar Nilsson 465	Posted - 2015.02.19 07:25:55 - [73] - Quote Rivr Luzade wrote: The subtopic at hand was war decs, not supers. Nevertheless, "watching others dying" applies as well as you need to do some research to find them regardless. And that would be called looking at evewho.com. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZTzA_xesrL8
Rivr Luzade Coreli Corporation The Kadeshi 1235	Posted - 2015.02.19 08:08:26 - [74] - Quote How do you want to look up people on EVEWho if you do not know them? Besides, "watching others dying" again applies as you need to do some research to find them regardless.Gäó This, however, is hard to achieve as these neutral logi pilots do not show on a kill mail so you need to be either on grid when such a stunt takes place or you are on the receiving end to begin with. In either case, above applies. Station Tab :: Agent Shuffling :: Double Standing Gain
Hrothgar Nilsson 465	Posted - 2015.02.19 09:08:01 - [75] - Quote Rivr Luzade wrote: How do you want to look up people on EVEWho if you do not know them? Besides, "watching others dying" again applies as you need to do some research to find them regardless.Gäó This, however, is hard to achieve as these neutral logi pilots do not show on a kill mail so you need to be either on grid when such a stunt takes place or you are on the receiving end to begin with. In either case, above applies. Frostys made a broad, generic point about people "feel[ing] entitled knowing when someone logged on without having to look out for them" without any other specifics. My responses were in that vein. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZTzA_xesrL8
afkalt Republic Military School Minmatar Republic 748	Posted - 2015.02.19 10:38:14 - [76] - Quote Mr Omniblivion wrote: afkalt wrote: Also finding it amusing that it is reasonable to expect 23/7 spying by people but leaving the account logged in to ruin the point of a watch list is unacceptable. The fundamental complaint is supers. So add it to that list instead. Luckily there are a ton of other pilots in the Republic Military School that could probably help you with this venture. Having an option to deny a watchlist request is an advantage to any roaming ganking fleet or wh group that wants to ambush a target. Without watchlists, it takes boots on the ground to know when/where a hostile fleet is. Otherwise, we can easily tell when someone pulls a logoffski in one of our systems. I mean, I don't really care if this isn't fixed, because I said earlier, we're already using it to 100% capacity and reaping every benefit out of the watchlist imaginable. It just seems like this is a logical choice for a re-evaluation due to the nature of Eve. Yes but you've not explained why not logging off is a problem. Circumventing a watchlist is utterly trivial. Logoffskis are a separate issue entirely - see my earlier point about ships and pilots magically disappearing. I suppose you dislike map stats too? They show hostile fleet build ups and camps etc. Get rid of the watchlist if ships never leave space when logged off, then we can talk.

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