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Tarsas Phage
Freight Club
365
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Posted - 2015.02.19 19:52:39 -
[1] - Quote
BACKGROUND: Last year with the Oceanus release, a change was implemented in the way cynosural fields are spawned by a player who is in close proximity (< 25km) of the force field of a POS. The change made it so that when a cyno was lit inside of a 25km distance from a POS force field, the cyno beacon itself would appear at a 25km distance from it, regardless. This change was enacted to address a form of well-documented "Titan Bowling."
This of course had a knock-on effect outside of the form of Titan Bowling this change aimed to address. It altered how people move Supercarriers and Titans specifically, where instead of cyno'ing on the force field and slow-boating a very short distance into the safety of it (typically < 10km), people were now confronted with the decision of doing the same and possibly having to slow-boat a much farther 20-30km, or light their cyno elsewhere in system and then warping into the POS once arriving, completely removed from any safety a POS and its automated defenses might afford.
Either of the two options outlined above can be quite unpalatable to a pilot in many cases, and since the aforementioned cyno change patch, and especially since Phoebe, we are witnessing the greatly increased popularity of a third method, and it is a method that, I believe, takes things "beyond intent" as well as to circumvent the 25km cyno exclusion zone around an active POS force field. This third method is what's referred to as the "Garage Door POS Cyno."
WHAT THIS IS: The "Garage Door POS Cyno" is a straight-forward method of using a online tower that has not yet had a force field password set. A pilot in a cynosural field-equipped ship pulls up next to the tower and lights. Because there is no force field, the server does not artificially alter where the cyno beacon itself spawns. It will in this case be spawned next to the ship lighting it, per the norm when lighting a cyno anywhere else. The capital ship(s) then jump to this cyno, and once all have jumped, a password is immediately set on the tower which then creates the impermeable force field. The result is near-instant safety without having the slow-boat or warp, and anyone present but not allowed to be inside the force field are immediately and automatically ejected.
Now, this method has always existed since both POSes and cynos themselves have existed. It's just that it has gone from being an obscure and very rare occurrence to, seemingly, an every-day and routine one.
SO WHAT'S YOUR BEEF WITH THIS TACTIC?: I will say straight up that I'm all for the use of clever and out-of-the-box tactics in Eve. However, I am not for a tactic to which there is flat-out no counter to it. In this case, there isn't even an impractical counter. There is absolutely no tool in Eve's toolbox of mechanics or skills to counter a POS force field used in this manner, and I further posit that it is employed to circumvent the aforementioned 25km cyno exclusion zone with the further side-benefit of obviating the need to warp.
CRY ABOUT IT, OR PROPOSE A SOLUTION?: I'd much rather propose a solution. When CCP implemented the 25km Cyno Exclusion Zone around a POS force field in Oceanus, I think they did it from the wrong point of reference. The Cyno Exclusion Zone should use the Tower itself as the central point of referent, plus the tower's forcefield radius, plus 25km:
(Large Tower) + 30km Force Field Radius + 25km
This would ensure that, no matter if there is a force field or not, a cyno that is lit within the Cyno Exclusion zone always spawns the same distance from the tower (force field radius + 25km.) Exceptions to this can (and should) be made for Anchored (not online) towers. |
Jassmin Joy
Sniggerdly
Pandemic Legion
306
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Posted - 2015.02.19 19:55:11 -
[2] - Quote
Yet another issue with POS' being used in a way that isn't intended, This one is seriously annoying though so +1 |
JSSix
CRY.NET
Nihilists Social Club
9
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Posted - 2015.02.19 20:02:39 -
[3] - Quote
I asked once a GM to clarify such as method, just to get a response from them to show others, and this is what I got :)
Quote:It is an exploit if at any time a ship with an active cyno module is unable to be targeted.
It is not currently an exploit if a ship lights a cyno next to a POS that does not have a force field. If a force field is generated before the cyno module ends its cycle, thus providing invulnerability to the cyno ship, then that is an exploit and any player who benefits from it will be subject to disciplinary action.
Hopefully that clears things up but if any further clarification is required then please reply .
Best regards,
xxxx
CCP Customer Support | EVE Online | DUST 514
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Hyun-a
AGMAR MONEY TEAM
PURPLE HELMETED WARRIORS
0
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Posted - 2015.02.19 20:03:30 -
[4] - Quote
+1
Would be great if CCP could look into this for an upcoming release. It kind of makes a mockery of the Cyno and Jump changes that any capital ship or black ops can move 100% safely with 0% risk, anywhere across eve by simply jumping to online, shield-less towers. |
Niding
CRY.NET
Nihilists Social Club
51
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Posted - 2015.02.19 20:08:18 -
[5] - Quote
Since the original poster said all that needed to be said, I'll just add;
+1 |
Marketing Chairman Stalin
Space Marketing Department
GoonSwarm
52
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Posted - 2015.02.19 20:16:35 -
[6] - Quote
+1 I've seen too many pubbies safe their ratting supers this way |
Elenahina
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
116
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Posted - 2015.02.19 20:46:54 -
[7] - Quote
+1 from me.
Not that I fly many capitals these days, but still, this one is pretty obvious.
Agony Unleashed is Recruiting - Small Gang PvP in Null Sec
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RoCkEt X
Sniggerdly
Pandemic Legion
101
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Posted - 2015.02.19 20:49:39 -
[8] - Quote
Ofcourse, +1
I'm tired of petitioning people who get a slap on the wrist for keeping their supers safe via use of an exploit. |
Eveli
Habitual Euthanasia
Pandemic Legion
20
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Posted - 2015.02.19 20:55:40 -
[9] - Quote
+1
Beyond a joke now
Follow me on the Twitters : @ThisIsEveli
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Kenneth Feld
Habitual Euthanasia
Pandemic Legion
216
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Posted - 2015.02.19 21:31:53 -
[10] - Quote
Typical double standard -
If PL does it, there would be 50 videos of it and 5000 petitions calling for PL to be banished
Some random scrub does it, nothing happens and the videos posted are of them thumbing their noses at someone and all is well cause the "Little Guy" won
Once enough little guys win, it is no longer an exploit if the GM's keep allowing it to happen with no intervention or punishment |
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Andy Koraka
Blackwater USA Inc.
Pandemic Legion
50
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Posted - 2015.02.19 21:49:40 -
[11] - Quote
JSSix wrote:I asked once a GM to clarify such as method, just to get a response from them to show others, and this is what I got :) Quote:It is an exploit if at any time a ship with an active cyno module is unable to be targeted.
It is not currently an exploit if a ship lights a cyno next to a POS that does not have a force field. If a force field is generated before the cyno module ends its cycle, thus providing invulnerability to the cyno ship, then that is an exploit and any player who benefits from it will be subject to disciplinary action.
Hopefully that clears things up but if any further clarification is required then please reply .
Best regards,
xxxx
CCP Customer Support | EVE Online | DUST 514
So if they jump in, smartbomb the cyno noobship to death, then raise the shield it's a legitimate tactic?
Smells like bullshit, CCPlease take the OP's suggestion on just making the exclusion zone based on the stick. |
Doomhammar
FinFleet
Northern Coalition.
23
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Posted - 2015.02.19 22:02:53 -
[12] - Quote
+1
Hopefully this catch CCP's attention. |
Bobmon
Habitual Euthanasia
Pandemic Legion
131
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Posted - 2015.02.19 22:13:09 -
[13] - Quote
this is a point noted on my CSM thread! I Hope this gets fixed soon!
GÖ˘GÖ˘Bobmon for CSM10
GÖ˘GÖ˘ #Third Party And #Loan Service GÖ˘GÖ˘
@BobmonEve
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phalanx III
Sniggerdly
Pandemic Legion
41
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Posted - 2015.02.19 23:01:32 -
[14] - Quote
What an interesting tactic. |
Gheyna
Hoover Inc.
Pandemic Legion
133
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Posted - 2015.02.19 23:02:07 -
[15] - Quote
valid tactic for movin supers |
Tbone Jackson
Locust Deepspace Mining and Industry
0
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Posted - 2015.02.19 23:05:05 -
[16] - Quote
JSSix wrote:I asked once a GM to clarify such as method, just to get a response from them to show others, and this is what I got :) Quote:It is an exploit if at any time a ship with an active cyno module is unable to be targeted.
It is not currently an exploit if a ship lights a cyno next to a POS that does not have a force field. If a force field is generated before the cyno module ends its cycle, thus providing invulnerability to the cyno ship, then that is an exploit and any player who benefits from it will be subject to disciplinary action.
Hopefully that clears things up but if any further clarification is required then please reply .
Best regards,
xxxx
CCP Customer Support | EVE Online | DUST 514
Posting GM conversations gets your posted edited, I always wondered why, and now I know why - no two petitions get the same answer on things of this nature.
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Archeras Umangiar
Delian Legion
Legion's.
4
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Posted - 2015.02.20 00:10:02 -
[17] - Quote
Gheyna wrote:valid tactic for movin supers
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jZOywn1qArI
and +1! |
Justitia McKingston
7
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Posted - 2015.02.20 00:11:55 -
[18] - Quote
+1 |
Bluemelon
Genos Occidere
Warlords of the Deep
90
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Posted - 2015.02.20 01:13:58 -
[19] - Quote
This mechanic is pretty ridiculous and needs to go.
For all your 3rd party needs join my ingame channel Blue's 3rd Party!
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=365230&find=unread
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Swiftstrike1
Swiftstrike Incorporated
869
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Posted - 2015.02.20 01:17:52 -
[20] - Quote
An alternative, somewhat blunter, solution would be to simply have the force field activate automatically with no password when the tower comes online. Corp members would have access by default to prevent the tower owner getting bounced.
This would however kill such tactics as "starbursting" and baiting people with a newly onlined tower and a HIC. I'd be OK with that...
Targeting, Sensors and ECM Overhaul
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Lugh Crow-Slave
768
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Posted - 2015.02.20 01:30:42 -
[21] - Quote
Andy Koraka wrote:JSSix wrote:I asked once a GM to clarify such as method, just to get a response from them to show others, and this is what I got :) Quote:It is an exploit if at any time a ship with an active cyno module is unable to be targeted.
It is not currently an exploit if a ship lights a cyno next to a POS that does not have a force field. If a force field is generated before the cyno module ends its cycle, thus providing invulnerability to the cyno ship, then that is an exploit and any player who benefits from it will be subject to disciplinary action.
Hopefully that clears things up but if any further clarification is required then please reply .
Best regards,
xxxx
CCP Customer Support | EVE Online | DUST 514
So if they jump in, smartbomb the cyno noobship to death, then raise the shield it's a legitimate tactic? Smells like bullshit, CCPlease take the OP's suggestion on just making the exclusion zone based on the stick.
Why go through the effort of smart bombing it just make sure the cyno ship doesn't have the ff password and he'll be flung out
Fuel block colors? Missiles for Caldari T3?
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theelusiveyoda
Sniggerdly
Pandemic Legion
44
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Posted - 2015.02.20 01:47:13 -
[22] - Quote
I personally have encountered 11 supers, 12 carriers, 5 dreads and 4 jump freighters pilots
who have used this.
Everytime i have a petitioned the issue with screenshots and recieved a replies saying the issue would be investigated but the characters have still logged in and no action appears to be have taken against them.
This should be clear cut, and ccp needs to change it so that cynos spawn outside of the forcefield radius at all times on online towers. |
Petrified
Old and Petrified Syndication
TOG - The Older Gamers Alliance
224
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Posted - 2015.02.20 04:41:27 -
[23] - Quote
Personally, I have no issue with it (I like the term you apply to it, by the way). I was wondering if this was a possibility and this thread confirms it is.
I would like to point out something however: There is nothing preventing a cyno ship from being 2km from the force field, start to travel towards the tower, and just before crossing the force field boundary lighting the Cyno. The Cyno does not appear next to the force field but is forced 25KM off. The cyno ship is then safe inside the force field while the cyno is the legal distance.
I recall the fix adding the 25 KM from the force field was to prevent cynoing a ship to bump another out of the force field.
Perhaps we need a dev to chime in and answer, concretely, whether or not a cyno ship should have any protection what so ever.
In which case, if the issue is the cyno ship being attackable, then if the cyno is lit the lighting ship cannot enter a force field or, if the force field is raised, the cyno ship is ejected, regardless of permissions and maybe the cyno moved outside the 25 KM range of the force field. |
Telefishopolis
Parental Control
5
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Posted - 2015.02.20 05:48:43 -
[24] - Quote
+1 from me |
Tarsas Phage
Freight Club
377
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Posted - 2015.02.20 06:07:36 -
[25] - Quote
Petrified wrote:Personally, I have no issue with it (I like the term you apply to it, by the way). I was wondering if this was a possibility and this thread confirms it is.
I would like to point out something however: There is nothing preventing a cyno ship from being 2km from the force field, start to travel towards the tower, and just before crossing the force field boundary lighting the Cyno. The Cyno does not appear next to the force field but is forced 25KM off. The cyno ship is then safe inside the force field while the cyno is the legal distance.
I recall the fix adding the 25 KM from the force field was to prevent cynoing a ship to bump another out of the force field.
Perhaps we need a dev to chime in and answer, concretely, whether or not a cyno ship should have any protection what so ever.
In which case, if the issue is the cyno ship being attackable, then if the cyno is lit the lighting ship cannot enter a force field or, if the force field is raised, the cyno ship is ejected, regardless of permissions and maybe the cyno moved outside the 25 KM range of the force field.
Yes, true, however it's not the cyno ship that's the issue here. It's what the cyno ship is beaconing for is the matter at hand. |
Arya Regnar
Darwins Right Hand
670
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Posted - 2015.02.20 06:16:13 -
[26] - Quote
Tarsas you can do the same thing with deadspace and cynos. PM me if you want details.
EvE-Mail me if you need anything.
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Petrified
Old and Petrified Syndication
TOG - The Older Gamers Alliance
224
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Posted - 2015.02.20 06:20:45 -
[27] - Quote
Tarsas Phage wrote:
Yes, true, however it's not the cyno ship that's the issue here. It's what the cyno ship is beaconing for is the matter at hand.
In which case the fate of the cyno ship is inconsequential and thus should not enter into the discussion.
So... whats wrong with a garage door if the cyno itself gets displaced or even destroyed if the force field goes back up?
If exposing the incoming ship is that big of a deal, then the a Cyno on station should also be considered an exploit and forced 25km away from station. If that is allowed, then allowing the cyno within the confines of an unraised force field should be fine so long as the beacon is moved or disrupted should the force field come up.
- remember the 25KM distance was to prevent bumping ships (like Titans) out of a POS. |
socos
Parental Control
1
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Posted - 2015.02.20 06:29:07 -
[28] - Quote
This is something CCP need to clear it up.
Tarsas proposal is in a good way.
+1 |
Tarsas Phage
Freight Club
377
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Posted - 2015.02.20 06:41:57 -
[29] - Quote
Petrified wrote:If that is allowed, then allowing the cyno within the confines of an unraised force field should be fine so long as the beacon is moved or disrupted should the force field come up.
You need to recognize the context of why people use this tactic. The most typical use of this tactic is to do no-risk cyno'ing of a super or titan into a safe POS. Yes, lighting a cyno is not an exploit. By itself, lighting a cyno next to anything is not an exploit. But the combination of lighting a cyno next to a Online/no-FF Tower only to immediately raise the force field once the super/titan hits grid is questionable, as the intent of this whole chain of events is to move a capital using method that has no reasonable counter.
Say you're the super/titan pilot. You jump to your Garage-Door cyno and you land on grid next to the Tower. While you still have post-jump invuln, you right-click the tower, select Manage, paste in a pre-set password from your clipboard in the two fields, and hit Apply. Bam. Force field goes up before both your post-jump invulnerability and session change expires. Fully zero-risk. While you wait for your jump fatigue to tick down, you're on your alt setting up your next tower, and you can go from one end of Eve to the other like this.
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Petrified
Old and Petrified Syndication
TOG - The Older Gamers Alliance
224
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Posted - 2015.02.20 06:57:31 -
[30] - Quote
Tarsas Phage wrote:Petrified wrote:If that is allowed, then allowing the cyno within the confines of an unraised force field should be fine so long as the beacon is moved or disrupted should the force field come up. You need to recognize the context of why people use this tactic. The most typical use of this tactic is to do no-risk cyno'ing of a super or titan into a safe POS. Yes, lighting a cyno is not an exploit. By itself, lighting a cyno next to anything is not an exploit. But the combination of lighting a cyno next to a Online/no-FF Tower only to immediately raise the force field once the super/titan hits grid is questionable, as the intent of this whole chain of events is to move a capital using method that has no reasonable counter. Say you're the super/titan pilot. You jump to your Garage-Door cyno and you land on grid next to the Tower. While you still have post-jump invuln, you right-click the tower, select Manage, paste in a pre-set password from your clipboard in the two fields, and hit Apply. Bam. Force field goes up before both your post-jump invulnerability and session change expires. Fully zero-risk. While you wait for your jump fatigue to tick down, you're on your alt setting up your next tower, and you can go from one end of Eve to the other like this.
The context is very important. The reasoning behind the context is equally important... well... since it is part of the context.
If your desire is to expose a ship (does not matter what kind of jump capable ship) to danger, then the same reason you would disallow the Garage Door Tactic is the same reason you would disallow a cyno withing 25 km of a Station. But that is not why the 25 KM displacement was added on top of POS force fields. It was added in response to using jump capable ships to bump Supers out of a POS.
Tarsas Phage wrote:...you can go from one end of Eve to the other like this. You can go from one end of EVE to Another jumping to zero on any station you can dock at (I've done it) so this argument is not very compelling. |
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