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Tinu Moorhsum
Royal Scientific Research Enterprise
6
   |
Posted - 2011.12.01 20:44:00 -
[1] - Quote
+1 this petition if you want CCP to reconsider the taxes on PI.
What they didn't account for with the 17% tax is that most people who do PI seriously, like I do, have to export and import materials from different planets possbily multiple times in order to produce their end product.
I just ground the numbers for the product I'm making and I believe the ACTUAL tax rate that I'm paying after exporting and importing intermediate materials in the process is about 30%. Not 17%.
If a corp were charging mission runners 30% taxes you would quit. Unfortunately we've had InterBus thrust upon us and we can't escape them without shooting down the towers...
So in the time it takes me to shoot down one of the damned customs offices with my crappy Tier 2 BS (remember I said I do PI, not PVE/PVP) it takes about 24 hours of non-stop shooting... That is, if nobody comes in my wormhole and ganks me while I'm AFK shooting the damned things.
By the time I buy 10 customs offices, probably 10 battleships and spend probably 10 days doing this I'm going to be invested in swapping InterBus CO's for my own by nearly 2 billion isk and end up REALLY resenting this change. In fact, I resent it already!
I demand, on behalf of honest capsuleers everywhere a reprieve from the exorbitant taxes we have to pay for PI. Give us back our 5% for the next 2 weeks so we can at least make the change over with some grace.
Meanwhile I emplore ALL people grinding PI to STOP for 2 weeks while we do this so we drive prices up through the roof and can recoup our investment.
+1 if you're with me
T- |
Urgg Boolean
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
5
|
Posted - 2011.12.02 05:08:00 -
[2] - Quote
+1 - the new PI sucks. |
Tsukihime Costkiller
Chorus Abyssum
0
|
Posted - 2011.12.02 06:32:00 -
[3] - Quote
Only one consequence of raising taxes is the raising price of sell on market !
Taxes is not really important regards the augmentation of value tiers IV Items sell on Market !
Ok, it's more rude, but actually, prices are higher than ever, so adjust value of what you produce ! |
Tinu Moorhsum
Royal Scientific Research Enterprise
6
|
Posted - 2011.12.02 16:08:00 -
[4] - Quote
Tsukihime Costkiller wrote:Only one consequence of raising taxes is the raising price of sell on market !
Untrue. The EVE market works like this: If more of a certain item is manufactured than the market can consume (consider, for example, the Drake) then prices go down because people undercut each other and sacrifice margins for isk in wallets. In the case of the Drake, people actually make them for under the cost of minerals required... margins are not only small... they're NEGATIVE!!!
However, if damand is higher than production (refer to Oxygen isotopes or Robotics) then prices will go up... at least until enough people start making them that supply once again out-strips demand
The third effect on the market is the isk generating activities like incursions that generate isk from thin air at the expense of market driven activities. Enter incursions. Why grind robotics for 100mil isk a day if you can make 100mil isk per hour on high-sec incursions. This causes a migration of labour from a market driven activity to a non-market driven activity, which has a huge HUGE impact on the stability of the economy.
Apparently, CCP have an economist on the payroll but with my bachelor level understanding of economics I can only conclude that his role is to carefully document the failure ... not to steer the policy. For that, you need managers, not economists. My grade for the CCP economist based on results is an F ... a big FAT "F". He needs to make is voice heard or stop sapping the CCP payroll for zero added value!
T- |
D'Tell Annoh
4Sight Enterprises
1
|
Posted - 2011.12.02 23:19:00 -
[5] - Quote
+1
I'm in the exact same boat you're in. I wish we could buy (rent?) the customs offices from InterBus, or have some kind of half measure where we could import goods to planets without being gouged.
Maybe even pay InterBus a certian amount of ISK for a license to use their customs offices in a given system at no charge?
Of course, if you're part of a massive alliance or corp this is no big deal, but for us wildcatters out here in w-space it is another kick in the teeth. |
Leoresdectena
Gem Concordance
1
|
Posted - 2011.12.03 16:00:00 -
[6] - Quote
The new tax rates are insane - the ANNOUNCED "double" would have been irritating enough, the ACTUAL change (YET ANOTHER LIE FROM CCP) of more like 100 TIMES the old tax rate makes many previously profitable activities into LOSSES that won't happen any more.
I'm NOT seeing 17% taxes - I'm seeing more like 30% on Tier 2 items, which makles the whole factory planet concept IMPOSSIBLE to actually break even on, much less make anything resembling a profit.
GOodby PI - I was planning to cut way back as it was due to the NO REASON FOR IT BUT TO SHAFT THE PLAYERS announcement of double taxes. GIven the CURRENT ACTUAL CHANGE, I will shut down PI and never bother looking at it again on ALL of my characters. It was ALREADY marginal give the ACTUAL amount of time investment it needed, now it's a total waste of time.
|
Vigoth Ritic
Frozen Corpse Inc.
2
|
Posted - 2011.12.03 16:53:00 -
[7] - Quote
+1
I got my pitch fork ready..... |
Lord Noj
The 21st Exploratory Division
The Corcu Loigde Alliance
1
|
Posted - 2011.12.03 18:44:00 -
[8] - Quote
Totally ridiculous taxation policy. +1!!!!! |
A'arna Atraben
Mammoth Beetle
0
|
Posted - 2011.12.04 06:49:00 -
[9] - Quote
+1
Double the old tax would be fine. Twenty to thirty times the old tax is not. |
ZapStar253
Solarwind GP
1
|
Posted - 2011.12.05 16:19:00 -
[10] - Quote
Read my LIPS no New Taxes |
Laila Kumaki
Nex quod Principatus
SRS.
1
|
Posted - 2011.12.05 22:01:00 -
[11] - Quote
Tinu Moorhsum wrote:[quote=Tsukihime Costkiller]
Apparently, CCP have an economist on the payroll but with my bachelor level understanding of economics I can only conclude that his role is to carefully document the failure ... not to steer the policy. For that, you need managers, not economists. My grade for the CCP economist based on results is an F ... a big FAT "F". He needs to make is voice heard or stop sapping the CCP payroll for zero added value!
T-
A staff economist charged with manipulating any economy will intervene as infrequently as possible, and as subtly as possible. Ideally they'll make subtle stealth changes to a problem system like that, if they make them at all. If they're doing their job right you will never be able to observe their influence from the outside, not only because they should be subtle and gentle by design, but also because if you could ever tell there was intervention there'd be a rash of destabilizing speculation profiteering.
I look at these steep taxes and see a planned currency sink to remove more isk than before from circulation. Measures like that are the reason inflation in EVE is drastically lower than any other MMO I've ever encountered. |
Tinu Moorhsum
Royal Scientific Research Enterprise
10
|
Posted - 2011.12.05 22:59:00 -
[12] - Quote
Laila Kumaki wrote:
A staff economist charged with manipulating any economy will intervene as infrequently as possible, and as subtly as possible. Ideally they'll make subtle stealth changes to a problem system like that, if they make them at all. If they're doing their job right you will never be able to observe their influence from the outside, not only because they should be subtle and gentle by design, but also because if you could ever tell there was intervention there'd be a rash of destabilizing speculation profiteering.
I look at these steep taxes and see a planned currency sink to remove more isk than before from circulation. Measures like that are the reason inflation in EVE is drastically lower than any other MMO I've ever encountered.
Good post. I certainly can't disagree with your analysis.
The sad part is, if they're looking for ISK sinks they really should look at incursions, not PI. doing PI most players will not make more than about 100 mil a day on it. In a wormhole I suspect you can make more with mining. High-sec incursions are paying 100mil an hour.
I think it's more than an isk sink though. In fact, I"m sure about that because once the customs offices are replaced, you can put the tax rate at 0%. I think the point is that CCP *really* wants people to kill the interbus customs offices so they're taxing the bejezus out of them to make getting on with the job a necessity as opposed to an option.
Acutally, the fact is, players have themselves to thank for this mess... becasue initially CCP wanted to just make the customs offices in wormholes disappear but people moaned and cried so much about it that CCP buckled to the pressure.... the "cure" CCP dreamt up to make the moaners happy, as we can now all see, was an order of magnitude worse than the disease.
Alas, I'm still not finished grinding customs offices. I have 4 more to go and it's going to turn out to be less of an isk sink than I thought because miraculously i've only lost one BS so far.
T-
|
Coveney
Ragnarok Engineering
V O I D
0
|
Posted - 2011.12.06 01:15:00 -
[13] - Quote
+1
I stop doing anything on planet when i saw the cost to import and export.
|
Leocadminone
Gem Concordance
4
|
Posted - 2011.12.07 14:24:00 -
[14] - Quote
Laila Kumaki wrote:Tinu Moorhsum wrote:[quote=Tsukihime Costkiller]
Apparently, CCP have an economist on the payroll but with my bachelor level understanding of economics I can only conclude that his role is to carefully document the failure ... not to steer the policy. For that, you need managers, not economists. My grade for the CCP economist based on results is an F ... a big FAT "F". He needs to make is voice heard or stop sapping the CCP payroll for zero added value!
T- A staff economist charged with manipulating any economy will intervene as infrequently as possible, and as subtly as possible. Ideally they'll make subtle stealth changes to a problem system like that, if they make them at all. If they're doing their job right you will never be able to observe their influence from the outside, not only because they should be subtle and gentle by design, but also because if you could ever tell there was intervention there'd be a rash of destabilizing speculation profiteering. I look at these steep taxes and see a planned currency sink to remove more isk than before from circulation. Measures like that are the reason inflation in EVE is drastically lower than any other MMO I've ever encountered.
This wasn't a subtle change. This was a MAJOR BREAK HOW PI WORKS change.
The steep taxes aren't a currentcy sink. They're a "Make many previously profitable PI activities IMPOSSIBLE TO BREAK EVEN ON" change that is going to make a lot of PI materials unavailable at ANY price or only in very small quantities from the very few planets that a high-tier PI item can be made on with NO importing (and forget about buying some of the top tier materials, you HAVE to import to make many of those at all as NO single planet has all the needed resources on it).
If this was suggested by CCP's staff economist, he should be fired for cause and total inability toTHINK THINGS THROUGH AS THEY WORK IN THE REAL WORLD.
|
Broomhilde
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
0
|
Posted - 2011.12.11 05:34:00 -
[15] - Quote
Interesting. When I complained about the new PI taxes in game I was called an idiot and told to take Economy 101, glad to see others object. |
LeHarfang
Intersteller Masons
Wonder Kids
3
|
Posted - 2011.12.11 07:18:00 -
[16] - Quote
-1 Sorry, but me and my corp have been shooting down costums offices in a worm hole for the last 2 weeks. With a fleet of battleships with missiles and drones, it's pretty easy. Of course, this kind of thing is for corps, not people in solo.
I don't know for high sec taxes, but i think they should be ajusted depending on your standing with the owner of the system like it is with refining at stations. Also, it's a bit stupid for concord to manage gallente or ammar planetary costums as they are a space police force.
And for null sec/wh space, i think taxes are high to encourage corps and alliances to destroy the Interbus CO and build their own. It's not to drive solo people into null security (including wormholes), which you can do, but it's at the risk of getting attacked if the system is already occupied and you're not friendly with the owners.
I mean, with the upcoming betas of Dust 514, they have to make PI a corp/alliance thing. Those who wants to stay solo will have to do it in high security space with concord/npc factions taxes or join/make a deal with a friendly null sec/wormhole corp. |
Inquisitor Magneto
Bishop Intergalactic Ventures
The Interstellar Contract Agency
2
|
Posted - 2011.12.12 18:52:00 -
[17] - Quote
I would have to agree this new tax system is totally unfair and in the spirit of eve transparent function i expect the tax system to be adjusted to more moderate levels.
Not only does the new pi tax system sucks i also found out that the launch system is broken as well. last week my journal would not show a new pod after i launch a previous pod. Now this week nothing shows up in the journal and yet i am charged for the launch.
Eve online is a good game but like STO i warned that you must stay focus to customer reaction and abilities in the game. gutting to many attributes in the game can be seen as bad and not connecting with the user base. You know have PI miners and to ignore them because you think you made a mistake is wrong. you must have understanding before breaking a system so you can make reasons to get rid of it. This is the scheme i am seeing going on. I hope this is speculation and not an ongoing function.
|
Mos7Wan7ed
Dirt-Nap Ship Yards
Dirt Nap Squad.
2
|
Posted - 2011.12.12 20:54:00 -
[18] - Quote
I am a single player doing PI in a wormhole solo with a few alts.
I did the math and I pay 27,200 ISK per unit in PI taxes. That is 36% of the current market value on supercomputers in just PI taxes alone.
Either I stop and take the loss, pack it away and earn nothing in the mean time, or I do PI for nearly no profit when compared to other income options for time spent. |
Mos7Wan7ed
Dirt-Nap Ship Yards
Dirt Nap Squad.
2
|
Posted - 2011.12.12 20:58:00 -
[19] - Quote
1 |
Daedalus Arcova
Havoc Violence and Chaos
229
|
Posted - 2011.12.13 10:34:00 -
[20] - Quote
Tinu Moorhsum wrote:Tsukihime Costkiller wrote:Only one consequence of raising taxes is the raising price of sell on market !
Untrue. The EVE market works like this: If more of a certain item is manufactured than the market can consume (consider, for example, the Drake) then prices go down because people undercut each other and sacrifice margins for isk in wallets. In the case of the Drake, people actually make them for under the cost of minerals required... margins are not only small... they're NEGATIVE!!! However, if damand is higher than production (refer to Oxygen isotopes or Robotics) then prices will go up... at least until enough people start making them that supply once again out-strips demand The third effect on the market is the isk generating activities like incursions that generate isk from thin air at the expense of market driven activities. Enter incursions. Why grind robotics for 100mil isk a day if you can make 100mil isk per hour on high-sec incursions. This causes a migration of labour from a market driven activity to a non-market driven activity, which has a huge HUGE impact on the stability of the economy. Apparently, CCP have an economist on the payroll but with my bachelor level understanding of economics I can only conclude that his role is to carefully document the failure ... not to steer the policy. For that, you need managers, not economists. My grade for the CCP economist based on results is an F ... a big FAT "F". He needs to make is voice heard or stop sapping the CCP payroll for zero added value! T-
Did you study economics at the University of Tea Party? |
Tinu Moorhsum
Royal Scientific Research Enterprise
16
|
Posted - 2011.12.13 15:01:00 -
[21] - Quote
Daedalus Arcova wrote:Did you study economics at the University of Tea Party?
LOL.... no I didn't but unlike the tea party I'm kind of sure that I get it..... you asking me this question, on the other hand... makes me wonder if you know what I was talking about :))
Update on our situation. We've now replaced all of our customs offices. We finally got fed up doing it the hard way and talked to some friends and got some bigger guns involved. 3 dreads make short work of a customs office, which makes it a LOT less painful.... Fortunately our friends were willing to put their bad-boys into the fight against CCP's tax policy.
What disappoints me about this thread is that CCP hasn't made any statement about their "mistake". They said that PI taxes were going to be 17% and multiple people have calculated it above the 30% level and CCP declined to give any response to this even though it's completely obvious that they fumbled the ball. ... I mean.... I thought they were on a new BFF campaign and when someting important happens that affects the satisfaction of the player base, they shouldn't give us radio-silence..... I guess it's back to business as usual..... screw the players....no communication....no openness.
Back to square one.
T- |
Arch Raptor
Aegis Coalition Logistics
Dark Legion Alliance
1
|
Posted - 2011.12.13 20:55:00 -
[22] - Quote
+1
Already a pain to get POS fuels with the fuel block changes, now a tax to run PI that is so outrageous that you literally just killed PI for most players. 17% to import, 17% to export, and then the factory planet to actually make a tier 3-4 product. can i have some lube with that raping?
|
Frolicking Fairy
Thundercats
Initiative Mercenaries
0
|
Posted - 2011.12.14 06:43:00 -
[23] - Quote
so its too hard fo ryou to destroy the old customs office and put up your own? I guess you might not be able to do that in highsec where there is minimal risk to you then and the little tax is what keeps you safer. If you setup your own customs office you can set it at zero or 16% jjst os people use yours more |
Ned Black
Driders
4
|
Posted - 2011.12.14 14:48:00 -
[24] - Quote
Arch Raptor wrote:+1
Already a pain to get POS fuels with the fuel block changes, now a tax to run PI that is so outrageous that you literally just killed PI for most players. 17% to import, 17% to export, and then the factory planet to actually make a tier 3-4 product. can i have some lube with that raping?
Sorry, CCP is all out of lube. The only thing remaining in abundance for rectal use is Sisters Long Thorn Cactus Probes... look at the bright side. You will get one forcefully inserted for free if you are not part of any major 0.0 alliance... |
uwai223
The Scope
Gallente Federation
10
|
Posted - 2011.12.14 14:50:00 -
[25] - Quote
You people need some friends.
We are required by our constitution to let the voters think they have a choice. That's democracy! |
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