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Morkt Drakt
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Posted - 2003.10.28 00:54:00 -
[1]
I was discussing the EVE Mission system with some devs from a couple of (other) MOGs today.... and I was trying to explain the rationale behind the awarding of the BP mission and how it fit into the mission system overall...
AFAICS the BP mission comes as predicted at around 250/260 missions or anytime after that down (supposedly) to 550 missions (if its working wwhichis dubious but another point).
So.. if you are "lucky" you get it at 250, if not you might get it 300 missions later...
On average you can do about 3 missions an hour, 4 is the maximum with clever preperation and a bit of luck but.. bear with me... so 100 down to 75 hours of solid gaming between "lucky" and "unlucky" at the very very best (wotn happen). And the reward is the same.
So for the "casual 2 hours a night 5 days a week and 10 hours at the weekend gamer" we would be looking at about four weeks or so to get to the "lucky" bit and then another 5 weeks if they are "unlucky".
Those I was talking to were, literally, gobsmacked and asked me, pointedly, wth was the rationale behind such a monumentally massive disparity, ie the huge range...
Well, much as I like EVE, I couldn't think of a single good reaosn in terms of immersion, backstory, balance, fun, interest or gameplay.
Just wondering if anybody else can - including the DEVs.
"What is the actual point behind such a HUGE difference in terms of mission numbers... and if it is purely random/luck... then how is it actually 'gaming', what point are the stats, races or any game element?"
(I very much doubt I'll get an answer but I'd like to see any attempt at sensibly rationalising it.)
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Danton Marcellus
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Posted - 2003.10.28 01:52:00 -
[2]
All I know is that I'll be cheated out of my miner II blueprint come patchday.
My firm belief is that the huge range is there to weed out the unworthy gamers and cut the customer base down to size. I mean if they can't hang around for a month doing 3-4 tasks an hour and just settle for the implants which they're already stacked high on and can't trade for a useful one to save their lives then hey, no great loss there... 
Convert Stations
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Morkt Drakt
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Posted - 2003.10.28 02:28:00 -
[3]
Nope.
That also makes no sense.
The range is (supposedly) down to absolute luck... so there is no way to guarentee "worth" of any sort.
Which is part of the point.. what does the range (itself) provide?
In reality it meant that if you were "unlucky" not only would you get your "BP" about 5 weeks later but it would also by then be worth a pittance of the those who were lucky... so you worked harder for far less gain.. and its "just bad luck".
Is this deliberate?
Of course not.. but it was an obvious side effect of the "rule" and the huge range.. they knew implicitly it would take some far far far logner to get the same BP and they knew how EVE markets operated. SO the outcome was predictable. Which, erm, makes it deliberate...
One person suggested it was there to insure powergamers didn't "rape the market and get every BP".
Unfortuantely though that doesn't wash either. The systme is as likely to cruel to a casual gamer as it is to a powergamer and the effect far more drastic too... there is no benefit or "balance" achieved that way either.
This is why its a total mystery to me... and whilst a few ahve said that tis pointless worying aobut it..
well... I've not seen anything to indicate a change in system after the next patch.
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Aissa
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Posted - 2003.10.28 04:17:00 -
[4]
Everquest, loot, and the random number generator coupled with spawn times on certain MOBs creates/created a similar effect - if not moreso. This could be doubly amplified by inter-guild competition for spawns, etc.
I'm pretty sure I could go to some EQ forums and dig up posts from players lamenting the months or years spent trying to accomplish certain things in the game. It was the case before I quit a couple of years ago, and seems to be the case whenever I happen across an EQ reference.
EQ is still one of the most popular "wack-a-mole" MMORPGs out there to wit, and those kinds of encounters are the bread and butter for many who play the game. Which sorta makes me curious as to what MOG game devs you were talking to...
~Aissa
Nomad, Dictionary and Encyclopedia of The Regulators |
Enderweeks
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Posted - 2003.10.28 09:33:00 -
[5]
Its also moot until you are told what the mechanism is for the agent rewards.
In the latest CSM log TomB intimated that it is not purely based on no of missions.
Personally I think that the rewards ARE based on the various ratings but there are so many variables affecing these values that you could be messing up your own chances.
For example - if you do 200 missions to get to a faction rating of 5.00 and you suddenly decide to bribe an agent that takes that value to 5.25 it is possible that you might have been offered the bp mission between 5.00 and 5.25.
There are some obvious trigger points (to go to lvl2, to lvl3 etc.) on agents that are not being used so much by other players so it could even be a scripted event (every 300 missions) that is affected by the number of players using a single agent.
It is pointless to keep bringing up the same criticisms about agent missions because we will (probably) never know the parameters they work to and to be honest I prefer it that way. To bring in the BP missions so soon after implants just created a 'gold-rush' to use agents that was unsustainable.
I would much rather have some sort of 'intelligent' credit system - you could contract to particular agents and have a career path that would involve special rewards. This would mean you make the choice to work with them 24/7 or 1/7 or whatever but still have a chance at a good reward.
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Pirindolo
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Posted - 2003.10.28 09:42:00 -
[6]
Any player has got the BP mission after the 300th mission?
It looks like if you don't get it by the 250th to 270th mission, you won't get it anymore.
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Alkad Mzu
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Posted - 2003.10.28 09:59:00 -
[7]
For me, the core issue here - what really gets me frustrated - is the lack of predictability.
I mean, I'm accustomed to "expecting change" from other mmogs out there, but the lack of documentation paired with the utter randomness and unpredictability of the agent system really makes it less than enjoyable - to say the least.
Dear devs, honestly, did you intend to make dedicated players waste up to 9 weeks of hard work to get an item of disputable value? I doubt it, but i'll accept any rational explanation you might offer for it :)
(on a sidenote, after a month of nice steady income from implants, all of a sudden it took 60 consecutive missions to get the next one... again - why?)
________________________________________________
Head of Public Relations, Fountain Alliance |
Aralihahd
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Posted - 2003.10.28 10:34:00 -
[8]
Well i did the whole check out the gain of the agent and do the calc and I got it to 285.
At mission 285 the guy got the blueprint.
All the missions were done after the implants (from agent lvl 1 ) So i doubt its luck.
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Qandor
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Posted - 2003.10.28 11:16:00 -
[9]
 Quote:
Dear devs, honestly, did you intend to make dedicated players waste up to 9 weeks of hard work to get an item of disputable value? I doubt it, but i'll accept any rational explanation you might offer for it :)
Actually, I believe that is exactly what they did. They were in a bind. People were getting antsy due to lack of content and they had nothing to give them so they threw the implants in. After two days they realized, that at the rate they were dropping this would not serve their purpose long enough to keep the playerbase at bay. At that point they nerfed the implants back hard, now forcing people to work up multiple level 3 agents to get the various implants.
When they believed the implant craze was beginning to wane, they threw the blue print carrot into the mix. As a result this bought them a lot of time for very little added content on their part. It was only the fact that the playerbase was desperate for content that made it work for them.
Funny when you think of it that CCP stands for "crowd control productions". Basically, that is exactly what they have been doing since launch is crowd control.
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Enderweeks
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Posted - 2003.10.28 11:33:00 -
[10]
It would have been much easier to leave the agents dropping all the implants but add them to the market at high prices - at least that would have allowed the players to make a choice between getting involved in agent missions (a lot of times from scratch) or continuing their current gameplay and picking up cheaper than market implants from players who were already doing agent missions or buying from the market.
The addition of the BPo's just reinforced the lemming rush to do agent missions and I include myself in that. The lvl3 agents I had were all Amarr so I got left with just Social (no matter what the devs say - a major knock-back) and i've now spent ages trying to get to lvl3 agents with the other factions to the extent that i can no longer access half my assets without being attacked by the Minmatar Navy - complete and utter stupidity on my part and something i'll have to spend ages fixing.
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Severe McCald
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Posted - 2003.10.28 12:34:00 -
[11]
As I understand your complaint, you want to be able to push a button and get a specific result. Predictability. I believe the original space invaders might be the game for you. Or play against yourself at chess.
If I wanted predictability I would not play games involving an element of random chance. I don't care about what others have acheived, I want the element of surprise. This game is too predictable as it is. It was better when agents dropped implants randomly, that was spoilt. Now you want them to drop the BP on mission number 255 (or whatever). Yawn.
I want things to break down randomly. I want a frigate, sometimes, to get in a lucky wrecking shot against a battleship, taking out its tracking system. I want reverse engineering that doesn't always give you the BP, but sometimes (more often than not!) turns your prototype uber laser into its component minerals, I want BP copies to be wrong (occasionally) so that when you use them you get junk or an inferior product or, (very, very rarely) an improved product, I want agents to make mistakes (good and bad) etc. etc. You get the idea.
What I don't want is an entirely predictable game.
Do you? Really?
SM
And Moses was content to dwell with the man:and he gave Moses Zipporah his daughter. And she bare him a son, and he called his name Gershom:for he said, I have been a stranger in a strange land. |
Morkt Drakt
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Posted - 2003.10.28 12:36:00 -
[12]
Yup - nothing there to explain the range between "luck" and "unlucky".
(Aissa your point/post misssed the point entirely Im afraid, Im aware of every other MOG out there as I review them for a living, {and have worked on some} What others do isnt the point nor does it provide a rationale.)
The reason my rough guide to when you get the BP works is that it indicates the first point at which you get the chance to get the BP.
The "problem" as I see it, the inexplainable "gameplay decision" is that if you dont get it then the chance of getting it later is extraordinarily high.
So whilst there is an element of your stats skills involved at the "Luck" stage, if youf ail that roll then nothing you do from there on in has any effect except plowing through mission after laborious mission.
Once agian though the issue is the "range" not the start point.
Somebody rationalise why the huge difference... and, once again, what makes people think this wont be the case after the changes?
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Alkad Mzu
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Posted - 2003.10.28 12:57:00 -
[13]
Quote:
As I understand your complaint, you want to be able to push a button and get a specific result. Predictability. I believe the original space invaders might be the game for you. Or play against yourself at chess.
If I wanted predictability I would not play games involving an element of random chance. I don't care about what others have acheived, I want the element of surprise. This game is too predictable as it is. It was better when agents dropped implants randomly, that was spoilt. Now you want them to drop the BP on mission number 255 (or whatever). Yawn.
I want things to break down randomly. I want a frigate, sometimes, to get in a lucky wrecking shot against a battleship, taking out its tracking system. I want reverse engineering that doesn't always give you the BP, but sometimes (more often than not!) turns your prototype uber laser into its component minerals, I want BP copies to be wrong (occasionally) so that when you use them you get junk or an inferior product or, (very, very rarely) an improved product, I want agents to make mistakes (good and bad) etc. etc. You get the idea.
What I don't want is an entirely predictable game.
Do you? Really?
SM
Well my friend, you do not understand my complaint i'm afraid.
I don't want a predictable game. But i do want the game to run within a predictable frame.
I don't want to be able to tell that a BP will drop at mission 276. But on the other hand, i do want a more explicit timeframe than "somewhere between mission 250 and infinity", simply because this particular issue is soaking up my online time, and i do not even know at this point if i'll be rewarded at all...
The randomness in other parts of the game, loot tables etc, are fine with me.
________________________________________________
Head of Public Relations, Fountain Alliance |
Morkt Drakt
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Posted - 2003.10.28 13:43:00 -
[14]
Exactly.
Working within sensible parameters is not a definition of "Predictability" as some would shout it out as some great "game-killer".
WOuld you think it is right if you battleship was either 5000 armour or 2500 armour "depending on luck" when you bought it or made it?
Does it sound "fair and balanced" that the Battleship Blueprint you buy tomorrow "May or may not be infinite depending on luck"?
No it doesn't does it?
And once agian we come down to "range". If we made battleships and there was a % chance they sould come out +/- 5% of specs we might judge that as acceptable... we would never judge a 50/100% range as acceptable though... or that it might cost double mienrals reqs if you "are unlucky."
Variability isnt the issue, the range of that variation is.
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Tanner Mirabel
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Posted - 2003.10.28 13:53:00 -
[15]
Edited by: Tanner Mirabel on 28/10/2003 13:55:50
I think one of the problems is that in a lot of cases there IS a predictability. From reading comments and info on these forums I estimated getting my BP between mission 253 and 258 and in fact got it on 252. If it wasnt for the fact that so many people have been able to predict fairly accurately when their BP will drop there wouldnt be so much of a problem for the people who for some reason have been 'unlucky'. If, for instance, it was that once agent and corp standing hit certain targets you had a 1 in 1000 chance of getting the BP mission then things would have been random enough that people not dropping a BP in the 250-270 window wouldn't think they were missing out.
Back to the point though, I cant see any rationale behind this other than the fact that the majority of storyline has been to hide bugs.
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Severe McCald
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Posted - 2003.10.28 16:22:00 -
[16]
Firstly, Tanner has made the point well. We were told there was an element of luck and the problem is that too many people are being "lucky" at about the same point; raising expectations.
You are right Morkt, regarding other areas of the game. I would be deeply ****ed off if my ship armour or shields varied randomly. However, this was an area in which we were told it would vary randomly (ie. there would be an element of luck).
Alkad, pleased to see you are so involved in this thread. Didn't realise it was your complaint. Or are you an alt of Morkt?
SM
And Moses was content to dwell with the man:and he gave Moses Zipporah his daughter. And she bare him a son, and he called his name Gershom:for he said, I have been a stranger in a strange land. |
Morkt Drakt
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Posted - 2003.10.28 16:35:00 -
[17]
Edited by: Morkt Drak on 28/10/2003 16:36:45
"Sort of" Mac.
The reason there are a lto of folks getting the BP aorud the same nubmer of missions is that this is the first time the BP Mission becomes available to them.
i.e. You get it after XXX succesful missions with that agent.
(Thats the number I can predict fairly accurately using agent-standing-increase)
At that point there is a "roll" to see if you get the mission or not. If "yes" then you are "lucky". If "no".. then you are in trouble.
and from there on downwards nobody has a clue how or when the BP mission maybe offered again....
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Danton Marcellus
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Posted - 2003.10.28 16:48:00 -
[18]
They won't be, the patch will come before that and snuff out any such dreams.
I'm seriously bummed out by this ****-poor coding and thinking about going dorment, the only thing stopping me right now is the feeling that in doing so I'll drag about 10 others with me.
Right now I'm doing nothing but apathically sitting at my station filling the qoutas every 15 minutes, hauling the consumer electronics for the everlasting shopping spree...
Convert Stations
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Alkad Mzu
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Posted - 2003.10.28 17:08:00 -
[19]
Edited by: Alkad Mzu on 28/10/2003 17:08:34
Quote:
Alkad, pleased to see you are so involved in this thread. Didn't realise it was your complaint. Or are you an alt of Morkt?
Sorry for grabbing your reply and cherishing it as my own 
On a sidenote, I can assure you I'm nobody's alt :)
________________________________________________
Head of Public Relations, Fountain Alliance |
Joanne Prescott
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Posted - 2003.10.28 21:58:00 -
[20]
I agree with what people are saying about not making the game predictable. I dont want to know that i'll get a reward at mission 276 either but id also like to know for sure that when i meet certain criteria that i WILL get a reward..and not having to keep doing missions between 276 and infinity to get it.
And if we're discussing predictability all i really want to know is WTF the rewards are race specific...thats ridiculous in the extreme id love to have the suspense of taking on an implant mission and not knowing for damn sure i was going to get another intell implant...as for BP's like nano membrane 1...pffft while others get miner II's.
I know it sounds like a gripe against ppl that do get miner II's (it isnt). I just wish that this sort of mission reward predictability was fixed to something a little closer to random.
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Morkt Drakt
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Posted - 2003.10.28 22:01:00 -
[21]
Well sorry but ive just been told that even if you do an infinite number of mission you may still never get the BP.
It is "just down to luck"
thats it.
No stats, attributes, standings or skills.
Just pure blind luck.
Oh, yeah...
and that means you may never,e ver, get a BP also.
Good system huh?
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Pirindolo
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Posted - 2003.10.28 22:23:00 -
[22]
Edited by: Pirindolo on 29/10/2003 07:13:08
This is ridiculous.
I can't believe it. Why then all the luck is concentrated between the 250th and the 285th missions? They don't know what is really happening. If it was only a matter of pure luck, all the BP missions would be offered much more scattered than now, some at mission #1, some at #250, some at #400... but this is not the case.
We need to know what's the pattern of this PURE BLIND LUCK
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Morkt Drakt
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Posted - 2003.10.28 23:04:00 -
[23]
That is what they are saying.
There is no set number and its down to luck when you get it.
I totally agree with you that the current dispersion of BP mission awards totally contradicts their stane though.
Not a lot we peons can do about other than
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Aissa
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Posted - 2003.10.29 15:03:00 -
[24]
It is simple:
Equality of opportunity given a limited number of BPs that are being released into the economy via the agent system.
Perhaps because of concerns over the player economy and the impact an excessive number of these BPs would have on it.
Since every player has (for the most part) an equal opportunity to get an agent that provides a BP mission, either through randomization or selective placement, a distribution of BPs into the economy at various player levels would be possible.
While on one hand it is certainly not 'fair' to some that will not recieve a BP after 250-550 missions, it isn't like they won't be receiving:
A) Faction standing
B) Corporate standing
C) Implants
D) ISK
Taking an average of about 50k gained/mission (rough estimate), that's only between 12.5mil ISK (250) and 27.5mil ISK (550).
At .01 faction gained per mission, that is between 2.5 and 5.5 faction gained - at 550 missions you're probably close to capping that faction standing with the agent.
Corporate standing is capped around 40-50 missions so its a relative non-issue.
Given that every BP known is also an implant faction, at 1 implant every 50-100 missions that's a nice range of between 2-11 implants recieved (from 250@100 to 550@50). At 5 mil a pop, that's a nice addition of 10-55 million on top of the base amount for accomplishing the missions themselves.
Probably enough for a new player to buy their first battleship. Never forget the forest for the sake of a single tree.
Since the end result affects a rather fragile system (the economy) they limit the numbers available in a way that doesn't favor the mad rush of opportunists that only use(d) the system in order to get what they saw was a guarenteed result after X input. While it sucks to find out you're not one of the lucky ones, in a system that requires limited access, someone HAS to be unlucky.
/shrug
~Aissa
Nomad, Dictionary and Encyclopedia of The Regulators |
Pirindolo
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Posted - 2003.10.29 15:27:00 -
[25]
Right, but the problem is that this should have been known BEFORE people started to do missions in the search of the BP's.
I am sure that many people wouldn't have played agent missions if they knew that all the agent system was based on pure blind luck.
================================================
mmmm, Mr. Hayden must be furious (too many posts today!!)
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Danton Marcellus
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Posted - 2003.10.29 16:00:00 -
[26]
How many still would've bothered with the charisma attribute and social skill when it's been proven utterly useless?
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Mjolnir
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Posted - 2003.10.29 17:31:00 -
[27]
I think your right Aissa, they distrubution of BPs has something to do with stablizing the markets. I dont think anyone wants to have the sheer redicilus prices and bpc/orignal group buy deals that ruined the current markets, but thats a rant for another day, and another thread.
Although, I do wish CCP would be a little bit more forthcomming instead of saying its all down to luck, if this is just to help stablize the markets by creating an artifical limit to the supply then just say so.
Quote:
How many still would've bothered with the charisma attribute and social skill when it's been proven utterly useless?
Social and chrisma arent useless, they just dont directly effect missions. Chrisma speeds up training of skills like social and corperate mangement. Social increases the gain in standings for that agent by 5% each level I believe.
Which PA character are you? |
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