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Ew Will suck : CCP Nerfing again.

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Dreez	Posted - 2003.10.28 04:40:00 - [1] Latest rumour from Chaos is that CCP are planning on nerfing all Target-jammers so they will have a very short activation time and also completely drain your Cap due to their forthcomming raised activation-cost. Basically they will become like those Multi-ECM, Tons of activation cost and barely no Duration. CCP want us to use Target Jamming for Defense. WTF OMG... grow some brains.... EW = Electronic Warfare = Offensive Combatskill. Thus making all Caldari Ships completely CRAP since caldari atm focuses on Large Hybrids witch we all know SUCK, and now CCP wanna take away the last thing that Caldari has as an advantage - EW . Next Skills for me: Minamatar Battleship and Large Projectile. 'Trying to argue logically with Evol is like trying to teach a pig to dance. It only makes you look foolish and really annoys the pig ' - Duke Droklar [OC]
Roba	Posted - 2003.10.28 05:10:00 - [2] Well they better buff the dmg out put of 425mm rails to make up for it.
ClawHammer III	Posted - 2003.10.28 07:59:00 - [3] Edited by: ClawHammer III on 28/10/2003 08:02:49 I don't see what the problem is. Currently non-multi ECM modules use ridiculously small amounts of cap for the power they wield. The same goes for sensor dampeners and weapon disrupters. One definite advantage of giving them smaller duration is that it will be much easier to retarget them on a different ship instead of having to wait 35 secs. or whatever. Caldari ships will still be extreamly effective PvP ships. They still have more medium slots, more CPU, more missle slots, and last but not least... more shields.
Jarjar	Posted - 2003.10.28 08:04:00 - [4] As long as they don't nerf multis... Using 4 isn't very easy, let alone 5. That with EM 4/ESO 5/4 cap power relays.
Madboy	Posted - 2003.10.28 09:40:00 - [5] This should cut down on the number of solo skorp pirates. will make them bring back up that will deal the damage while they maintain the target and warp jam. I like the idea of a shorter duration as Jarjar said it will make moving your target jam to the next ship easier I don't think they ever intended solo pirating to be so easy. Corp operations have always been the focus for eve. ..... 2004.07.24 02:52:31combatYour 1400mm Howitzer Artillery I perfectly strikes Blood Dark Priest, wrecking for 1135.9 damage.
Symeonis Porphory	Posted - 2003.10.28 10:27:00 - [6] Quote: EW = Electronic Warfare = Offensive Combatskill. Why is it an offensive combatskill? Quote: Thus making all Caldari Ships completely CRAP since caldari atm focuses on Large Hybrids witch we all know SUCK, and now CCP wanna take away the last thing that Caldari has as an advantage Yes, and they're are doing it just to nail the Caldari. Come on, it is likely that Large Hybrids will be upscaled one day, so in the end, everything should balance out. (And I, as a Gallente, can enjoy some nice Large Hybrids as well) The problem is that Caldari don't just have an edge in Electronic Warfare, they have complete dominance. In addition, in a lot of fight their dominance in Electronic Warfare completely eleminates any strengths of the other race. It is nice to have great guns if you're unable to use them. At this moment, EW seems to be to powerfull, since it is almost undoable to build up a decent defense against it. As said, it doesn't give Caldari ships an edge, it gives them supremacy, and that's not good.
Lartfor	Posted - 2003.10.28 10:59:00 - [7] Personaly as it stands i think EW is borked. The shear notion that a support class way of combat can go toe to toe with a full out gunship makes me some what confused. Never do i think a scorpian geared for EW should be able to take a megathron or apoc 1v1, but i think that 2 megathrons vrs 1 megathron and a scorp, should result in the 2 megathrons being destroyed.
SKiNNiEH	Posted - 2003.10.28 11:41:00 - [8] I like that its being nerfed in such a way. You shouldn't be able to lock someone down indefinately. -------
Polux	Posted - 2003.10.28 11:54:00 - [9] Quote: Thus making all Caldari Ships completely CRAP since caldari atm focuses on Large Hybrids witch we all know SUCK, and now CCP wanna take away the last thing that Caldari has as an advantage - EW . quote] 2 Friend and me where blocking gat waiting for pirates. I was flying scorpion fitted for Jamming and scrambling they on arma and dom. One Scorpion jumped in I jammed him and scrambled and startid firing of torps and the amra startid firing to (dom jumped out don't know why)the torps all hitted but doing no damage at all coz the scorpion had 8 shield hardeners fitted and was complitly invaulnereble. Caldari still rockes whit out the EW.
Renox	Posted - 2003.10.28 12:28:00 - [10] Caldari ships don't focus on hybrids, they focus on missiles, which is an excellent weapon now " While Celestial Apoc is filled with smack talking, safespot hugging, gate cudling, empire war exploiting
MaiLina KaTar	Posted - 2003.10.28 14:30:00 - [11] Edited by: MaiLina KaTar on 28/10/2003 14:34:31 I¦ve been playing EW since day 1 in EvE. Eversince I got into beta I¦ve been focusing on EW. I was testing and using it so much I can safely say I know pretty much everything about EW, and this is exactly the reason why I say that these changes (if they come) are necessary. First off: Quote: Why is it an offensive combatskill? Because you¦re trying to disrupt your enemie¦s abilities in combat. This is clearly an offensive act, hence concords reaction to EW in empire space. EW is in fact the most dangerous form of offence in the game since it can render your enemy completely unable to fight back. And you better believe one thing: It¦s NOT funny to watch your ship being blown to pieces while you¦re able to do NOTHING at all. I¦d rather have myself shot at a jump-in point due to lag than being blown up this way... it ridiculous... pretty much like dying underwater At the moment a scorpion outrigged for EW is clearly more dangerous and deadly than anything else in the game. Fitted with 2 turrets and 4 launchers using torps or cruise missiles you¦re practically dead if the Scorpion pilot knows your ship and gets within warpscambling range in time. There¦s no way you can fight back if you don¦t have ECCM equipped... you¦re dead. God forbid that scropion has backup... there¦s no chance you¦ll ever survive such an encounter. You have of course the ability to fit ECCM modules and in most cases this will indeed help you out since there are quite a few scorp-pilots out there stupid enough not to fit enough EW gear. If you¦re going to fight against an experienced EW specialist you¦re most likely to get jammed, simply because the scorp has the most med-slots. The ship was designed for this so it¦s no big deal that it actually is such a deadly ECM-weapon. But this on the other hand is the reason why especially targeting jammers need to have their cap-need raised a bit. A scorpion shouldn¦t be able to lock you down for hours on end (yes, there are configurations which will render your ship useless for hours if used right), this ability to lock down other ships however must come at a price... and that price is energy. See, currently on tq I am able to jam you without you ever really having a chance to do anything. There are very few setups out there actually able to counter the kind of setup I use, I¦ve tested it with many many people so far, as said since early beta and there really isn¦t much you can do against a scorpion outrigged exclusively for EW. Now what¦s even more unfair is that not only can I jam you for hours on end... I will even be able to smack you down with a combination of missiles and hybrid/projectile turrets. This is the reason why especially the ECM-jammers need to have their cap-usage raised. By raising the energy usage you wouldn¦t really nerf the jammers themselves, but it would prevent the ECM user in his scorp from using high-energy weapons after jamming you. Yes... with the right setups you can even use tachyons to smack you enemy around and he¦ll never be able to do anything as long as he has no backup and that¦s just unfair. So by raising the capneeds of such jammers you level the field out a bit, making a good jam hard to maintain and rendering the EW-specialist unable to use any weapon with high energy usage. So in essence my opinion is that a successful ECM-jam should always come at the expense of energy and therefor firepower. You also have to keep in mind that CCP have plans to bring frigates back in the mix. With the proper frigate backup you won¦t really have to worry about such a change. First of all you¦d be able to spread the ECM modules out across several ECM-frigates, lowering the cap-need on every ship considerably. I suppose that frigs with the right setup and some teamwork will still be able to maintain a decent jam with jammers using more energy. Another method would be to give the scorpion some 'battery frigates' as backup. It¦s simple: Take a frig or a decent cruiser and load it up completely with cap-flux modules, cap-boosters and energy transfer arrays. Such a frig piloted by the right man can provide energy for the scorpion to maintain a jam considerably longer. Take 4 of these frigs and the jam shouldn¦t be a problem anymore. See... you guys have to keep in mind that CCP are always looking at the bigger picture. Don¦t just focus on that raise in cap-need for the jammers... look at this change in light of all the other changes that are on the way. Mai's Idealog
StoreSlem	Posted - 2003.10.28 14:39:00 - [12] Quote: Caldari ships don't focus on hybrids, they focus on missiles, which is an excellent weapon now yeah, we all enjoy blasting loot cans and corpses alike to nothingness... makes pvp near pointless, at least piracy.
Deneba Zaavi	Posted - 2003.10.28 16:12:00 - [13] Bad idea (imho). There are counter measures for ECM. They are called ECCM. As of now race specific ECM class already have a big limitation. You have to mount a good lot of em, and they are race specific. Good luck on jamming a Gallente with Caldari ECM. They are specific (that means: limitation), so if i choose to fit Caldari instead of Gallente i HAVE to have an advantage over Caldari. No? In this way the pirates that were trying to keep the people scrambled to ask for tolls, seeing their cap go down, may have to shoot down the ships more often. I don't think it's a good idea to raise the cap drain. Shorten the duration (thus indirectly increasing a bit the cap drain) may be a good idea instead (and it's a part of the project if i read right). Let's see what happens.:) Deneba Zaavi "The world is perfect as it is: a complete mess" - Joseph Campbell
Renox	Posted - 2003.10.28 18:03:00 - [14] True StoreSlem, but that missiles blow up cans hardly make them bad weapons in a fight, so saying that caldari ships will be crap if EW is nerfed (which the original poster said) is very wrong indeed. " While Celestial Apoc is filled with smack talking, safespot hugging, gate cudling, empire war exploiting
Joshua Calvert	Posted - 2003.10.28 18:13:00 - [15] EW already IS nerfed by it's specific nature. That's why the cover-all modules, namely Multi's, use a helluva lot of cap. LEEEEERRRRRRRRRRROOOOOOOOOYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY!
Yggdrassil	Posted - 2003.10.28 19:27:00 - [16] Nice post, MaiLina. The bad thing about EW is, as you said, that there's no defense against it. Haven't done the math - but I suspect that if you want to "protect" an Apocalypse from EW, you're gonna have to use ALL your low and med slots for ECCM - and I'm not even sure you're safe from jamming then.... Nerfing the cap usage is one way to balance it. Another way is putting some range limits on ecm stuff. IE you could say that your ECM stuff works 100 % at 25km, 80 % at 35 km - and so on. Not sure what ranges would be the "correct" ones. As I'm totally (almost) blank regarding using ECM - I'm not qualified to give too much well funded opinions though :( Yggdrassil
RazorDreamz	Posted - 2003.10.28 19:28:00 - [17] Where did you get this info? Do you have a link or anything more concrete? --------------------------------------- CSM Chat Log September 25, 2003: Fuhry> Some things we simply cannot test, and therefore we just put it on Tranq. cross our fingers and then get into panic m
Arthur Eld	Posted - 2003.10.28 20:45:00 - [18] Quote: Nice post, MaiLina. The bad thing about EW is, as you said, that there's no defense against it. Haven't done the math - but I suspect that if you want to "protect" an Apocalypse from EW, you're gonna have to use ALL your low and med slots for ECCM - and I'm not even sure you're safe from jamming then.... Nerfing the cap usage is one way to balance it. Another way is putting some range limits on ecm stuff. IE you could say that your ECM stuff works 100 % at 25km, 80 % at 35 km - and so on. Not sure what ranges would be the "correct" ones. As I'm totally (almost) blank regarding using ECM - I'm not qualified to give too much well funded opinions though :( I posted a thread in the ships and modules forum recently about an Anti-EW Apoc setup and found that it probably wouldn't take more than 2-4 low and 1 medium slot ECCM modules to overcome even race specific target jamming. ____________________ First comes smiles, then lies. Last is gunfire. We deal in lead.
Joshua Calvert	Posted - 2003.10.28 21:03:00 - [19] I guess I'm glad I started training for a Tempest then. Lord knows Caldari are gonna be worthless if EW is nerfed. LEEEEERRRRRRRRRRROOOOOOOOOYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY!
Jarjar	Posted - 2003.10.28 21:19:00 - [20] "Because you¦re trying to disrupt your enemie¦s abilities in combat. This is clearly an offensive act, hence concords reaction to EW in empire space. EW is in fact the most dangerous form of offence in the game since it can render your enemy completely unable to fight back." Depends on how you see it, IMHO... EW is defense because you make sure the enemy can't lock on to you (locking on is offensive, not by the game code, but you get it) to "harm" you. Just another view.
zincol	Posted - 2003.10.28 21:20:00 - [21] Quote: I guess I'm glad I started training for a Tempest then. Lord knows Caldari are gonna be worthless if EW is nerfed. lol i hear da projectiles r gettin nerfed too! w00t!
Joshua Calvert	Posted - 2003.10.28 21:22:00 - [22] I wish CCP would stop messing with balancing the damn guns and get on with the content already. We're all pretty much happy with guns and ECM, right? LEEEEERRRRRRRRRRROOOOOOOOOYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY!
Jarjar	Posted - 2003.10.28 21:23:00 - [23] Quote: I wish CCP would stop messing with balancing the damn guns and get on with the content already. We're all pretty much happy with guns and ECM, right? Yup, especially hybrids.
Ana Khouri	Posted - 2003.10.28 21:33:00 - [24] I find it especially joysome that nanofibers don't give any agi-bonus (or any other item with agi-mods), too. free speech not allowed here
Joshua Calvert	Posted - 2003.10.28 22:00:00 - [25] Oh, well, they can fix those **ing hybs instead of ing around with ECM. LEEEEERRRRRRRRRRROOOOOOOOOYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY!**
Nervar	Posted - 2003.10.29 00:51:00 - [26] Im finnaly gettin good at something, and ccp desides too hit it with the nerf bat. And for those off you that complain your a dead fish on land when you are jammed, come on... Take off some off those hardners and dmg mods and youl bee fine.. -------------------------------------------------> What I look forward to is continued immaturity followed by death.
Slithereen	Posted - 2003.10.29 02:03:00 - [27] I'm sure the Large Hybrids will be fixed. In fact, CCP actually takes a ying-yang approach. They nerfed this but increase on that as a balance. If they are nerfing ECM, it's quite possible---very possible indeed---that Large Hybrids will be improved in the next patch. Improved hybrids along with ECM would have given too much power to Caldari already. So again, yin and yang. More yin-yang examples. Lasers got their damage boosted, but so is their cap use. The last major patch boosted, not nerfed, a lot of things. Sure shield hardeners got nerfed, but boosters got "boosted". So did just about most other weapons, especially missiles but mods are nerfed. Again, yin and yang. I for one, looks forward to the changes. The ECM more and more people are using are sensor dampeners anyway---they still allow you to shoot, but with decreased range and accuracy. They are however, universal and non race specific. I prefer that EVE should go with this model (reduced range and accuracy) rather than shutting down the target altogether. _______________________________________________ "Is it me or the bad guys just getting totally pathetic?"---Clover, Totally Spies, "Hope is wasted on the Hopeless."---Mandy, The Grim Adventures of Billy and Mandy. "Stars are holes in the sky from which the light of the Infinite shine through."---Confucius.
Lartfor	Posted - 2003.10.29 02:30:00 - [28] If EW is nerfed and Large Hybrids are increased, it will help every one. EW ships will not longer necisarily be the ultimate fighting ships. Galente ships which almost soley rely on large hyrbids will finally become a viable option. And the rest of the races, such as amar will not become more usefull in pvp, do to the fact that EW, will not dominate them as well. Nerf of EW and boost of large hyrbid is the best idea i have heard in a very long time.
Worlocke	Posted - 2003.10.29 03:00:00 - [29] As the ECM currently stand it is VERY difficult for any battleship to have much of a chance against a scorp. 5 multi= 5x4= jamming of 20 3 sensor damps= range of less than 10k on a ship with a regular range of 65k. Most battleships cannot counter this set up at all or will have a very difficult time countering it. ECM needs a nerf "No beast so fierce knows but some touch of pity. But I know none and therefore am no beast."
Blacklight	Posted - 2003.10.29 07:28:00 - [30] My view is always just adapt and survive. Know the game mechanics and make use of them no matter how they change. Tachs are great so I get an Apoc and lasers... EW is obviously very effective so I also get a Scorp... missiles get a boost so I'm saving to buy a Raven (same as half the game by all accounts!)... something else will get a buff or a nerf so I'll go change direction... (and probably end up in a Tempest at this rate, not complaining though, those ships look great). Things change, appart from contributing to testing on Chaos and giving feedback there's no other real way to make an impact on these things. So onwards and upwards, adapt and survive. If you enjoy the game what's a few changes to your ship or loadout between friends? Remember that everyone get's hit with the same nerf bat or receives the same buff's. Just move with the times. Of course if you've got the skills or equipment in receipt of the latest buff you may get a temporary advantage but there's too many other good players out there that know the game mechanics to make that advantage last long. I'd rather not have frequent and extreme changes to game mechanics and in the main I'm happy with the current balancing (except large hybrids) but as I've said I'll move with the times. Have fun in space. Eve Blacklight Style

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