This combined with the other changes is making continued life for my small corp in WH space rather alot harder than it used to be. I just don't understand... the one place where small-holding was actually possible in Eve just became a nightmare of uncertainty, day in and day out. We just don't have the numbers to be probing and scanning 23/7, at least with the jump intel we had an idea of how secure/unsecured our WH was... I'm not asking for a PVP-free zone (wouldn't live there if I could) but the ability to have a modicum of intel allowed us to face intruders (large and small) with some confidence, and avoid blobfests.

Jumps are shown everywhere else in eve including the furthest reaches of Null space, so why did WH space get special attention?

--POS fitting issues, this seems to be a problem all over Eve, but with POSes the ONLY way to live in a WH it hurts us more than most, hope you get a handle on this soon

--As several other threads have reported the spawns have changed in various Ladar and Grav sites, I still need to check the various anoms and radars and Mags to see if they have changed as well

So can someone PLEASE explain the reasoning behind THIS:
EVE API
* The Jumps API no longer shows jumps into wormhole space.

Bug report it properly like you and everyone should be doing but aren't

Why in the world would ANY paying customer be told they "should" be bug reporting a game?

My, aren't we an entitled little ****.

Nope... he's a paying customer with a perfectly reasonable view.

Well, I suppose he should stop paying for EVE and walk away, since the QA so obviously sucks.

For the record, I certainly wouldn't want him as a customer. He's obviously too lazy to help himself.

Why in the world would ANY paying customer be told they "should" be bug reporting a game? Bug reports are a service provided to CCP by their paid QA employees, not their customers. That's like paying for a sandwhich and then being told to make it yourself.

It's a good thing you aren't a businessman then, as you seem to have a gross misunderstanding of how to treat a customer :) You seem pretty spiteful today. You mad because the customer base isn't giving CCP free labor?

It's a good thing you aren't a businessman then, as you seem to have a gross misunderstanding of how to treat a customer :) You seem pretty spiteful today. You mad because the customer base isn't giving CCP free labor?

Then please CCP be consequent and:

• Remove intel of NPCs killed in WH Systems


• Remove intel of Ships destroyes in WH Systems


• Remove intel of Pods killed in WH Systems

I'd actually like to see local put in delayed mode for all other systems, free intel? Work for it!

This combined with the other changes is making continued life for my small corp in WH space rather alot harder than it used to be. I just don't understand... the one place where small-holding was actually possible in Eve just became a nightmare of uncertainty, day in and day out. We just don't have the numbers to be probing and scanning 23/7, at least with the jump intel we had an idea of how secure/unsecured our WH was... I'm not asking for a PVP-free zone (wouldn't live there if I could) but the ability to have a modicum of intel allowed us to face intruders (large and small) with some confidence, and avoid blobfests.

Jumps are shown everywhere else in eve including the furthest reaches of Null space, so why did WH space get special attention?

CCP should pay us isks for every new bug reported. We are paying customers, not unpayed bughunters..... Why would i have to fill in a form. Be lucky I am reporting it at all.....

Why in the world would ANY paying customer be told they "should" be bug reporting a game? Bug reports are a service provided to CCP by their paid QA employees, not their customers. That's like paying for a sandwhich and then being told to make it yourself.

Why in the world would ANY paying customer be told they "should" be bug reporting a game? Bug reports are a service provided to CCP by their paid QA employees, not their customers. That's like paying for a sandwich and then being told to make it yourself.

Your metaphor is stupid. Someone telling you to make your own sandwich would be like CCP telling you to dig into the code and fix it yourself.

A far better one for this case would be buying a sandwich and being expected to tell the clerk when they mix up your order and gave you chicken instead of ham. Then again that almost makes the expectation that users should report bugs they find reasonable so I can see why you didn't use it.

Do you want the problem solved quickly?

Getting bugs fixed quickly?
Are we still talking about EVE Online?

Do you honestly believe POS are still the crap they are because CCP just don't know?
The info is here, right at their fingertips, in their own forums.
Their customers already let them know and you try to tell us that doesn't count because it wasn't put into the right form?
You're a funny guy...

You want a fitting metaphor, compare it to a unique thing several thousand people share, like a public building.
You still think the owner of the building has no way of knowing something's wrong?
Still think you need to tell them, so they can know there's a problem?

Why in the world would ANY paying customer be told they "should" be bug reporting a game? Bug reports are a service provided to CCP by their paid QA employees, not their customers. That's like paying for a sandwhich and then being told to make it yourself.

No thats like ordering a sandwich without tomatoes, getting tomatoes, then bitching about it to another customer who then tells you to talk to management instead if hearing you ***** all the while enjoying his tomato filled sandwich.

No thats like ordering a sandwich without tomatoes, getting tomatoes, then bitching about it to another customer who then tells you to talk to management instead if hearing you ***** all the while enjoying his tomato filled sandwich.

I see CCP fixing bugs quickly all the time. POS operational efficiency is not a "bug", it's poor design. Designing and implementing a new interface for POS operation (that works for everyone) is completely different from fixing a bug.

Ugh... if you've seen me post at all you'll know I go off about things people propose that would nerf wormhole space. That being said...

I have to admit, even though the lack of jump intel was a bit of a surprise and can hurt in some degree... it's universal and makes sense in Anoikis space. Seriously, how are you keeping tracks of jumps through a transitory cosmic hiccup in the first place? Gates, sure, they're tied into a network. Wormholes...

Here's what I see... we're losing the free intel of seeing how active a system is and at what times of day it's active. This was really REALLY useful information for a variety of things, such as planning system assaults, etc. Now, if you want to do it you have to do it yourself. Get your cloaky into the system unseen, find a comfy place around the pos with DScan humming away softly in the background, put on a little Mozart and observe. As you see people, put them in your contacts list. Take notes. Watch. Wait.

Part of me hates that we're losing something we've had for so long, but instead of nerfing wormhole life it's adding an extra little bit of danger to things. In these times where everyone's screaming for areas of space to be safer and more nerfed it's actually a little refreshing. We do fine without the other empire crutches the weaker players need... local, dedicated entries and exits, cynos and jump bridges, etc. We'll do fine without this. Welcome to the frontier space of Eve. This is how it was meant to be.

The killboards. There are things they need to know.

Ugh... if you've seen me post at all you'll know I go off about things people propose that would nerf wormhole space. That being said...

I have to admit, even though the lack of jump intel was a bit of a surprise and can hurt in some degree... it's universal and makes sense in Anoikis space. Seriously, how are you keeping tracks of jumps through a transitory cosmic hiccup in the first place? Gates, sure, they're tied into a network. Wormholes...

Here's what I see... we're losing the free intel of seeing how active a system is and at what times of day it's active. This was really REALLY useful information for a variety of things, such as planning system assaults, etc. Now, if you want to do it you have to do it yourself. Get your cloaky into the system unseen, find a comfy place around the pos with DScan humming away softly in the background, put on a little Mozart and observe. As you see people, put them in your contacts list. Take notes. Watch. Wait.

Part of me hates that we're losing something we've had for so long, but instead of nerfing wormhole life it's adding an extra little bit of danger to things. In these times where everyone's screaming for areas of space to be safer and more nerfed it's actually a little refreshing. We do fine without the other empire crutches the weaker players need... local, dedicated entries and exits, cynos and jump bridges, etc. We'll do fine without this. Welcome to the frontier space of Eve. This is how it was meant to be.

Why in the world would ANY paying customer be told they "should" be bug reporting a game? Bug reports are a service provided to CCP by their paid QA employees, not their customers. That's like paying for a sandwhich and then being told to make it yourself.

I'm glad the jumps API was removed for WH's - it made zero sense, and completely broke the aura of mystery that WH space had at Apocrypha's launch.

It's just unfortunate that the API for NPC kills hasn't been removed. There is no sensible reason, that I can find, for it existing in the first place... Don't get me wrong - it's bloody useful, and I've relied on it heavily in the past, in the same way that I used the jump info - but it's still stupid.

I don't have any particular issue though, with Ship Kills being available through API - as the 'Pend Insurance' payout system provides a plausible explanation of the meta-game mechanic. So, I'd be in favour of keeping that.

[quote=Tas Nok]
The next step should be for CCP to remove the log of rat kills. The only intel that should be publicly available is player ship and pod kills, presumably public knowledge released by the insurance companies.

Wait, "Huss ein" is filtered now?
Let's test: Barack ******* Obama"

I just don't understand... the one place where small-holding was actually possible in Eve just became a nightmare of uncertainty, day in and day out.

Nope... he's a paying customer with a perfectly reasonable view.

It's a good thing you aren't a businessman then, as you seem to have a gross misunderstanding of how to treat a customer :) You seem pretty spiteful today. You mad because the customer base isn't giving CCP free labor?

An approximate comparison for non WH dwellers would be you log on eve tomorrow and find that CCP has changed missions and incursions so that you now must dock and undock 20 times (with a 3min wait between docking cycles) in a 0.0 system w/o local every time before you run a string of missions or do a series of incursions. ... ***** and moan all you want about small corp WH dwellers, but if this restriction on the API jump counter doesn't change everyone can look forward to a yet another further depopulated area of the game.

After spending a year and a half in a WH, just recently moving out, I used all that intel every single day and the intel drove what was done in the system EVERY SINGLE DAY. WIthout it, well, life would have been entirely different.

Again and again I see entire threads populated with these adjectives like "mysterious" as if the words someone once typed out is somehow an edict that must be followed at the cost of game play. Pursuing flavor text at the expense of gameplay is a poor priority decision. The game is enriched by the small corporations that populate wormholes. As someone in this thread said: The settlements in wormholes enrich the game. It is the last real frontier for small corps, and it is already a very challenging life. CCP should be fostering this unexpected, emergent property and not trying to stifle and cripple it with preconceived notions.

I know that there are a lot of PvPers out there who want to support policies that populates their kill boards, but is this really the way you want to do it? You understand that as a PvP'er hunting down PvE'ers, you have a huge advantage in fitting, you have the element of suprise, and your prey aren't cloaked. How much more at a disadvantage do wh dellers have to be before you're happy with your odds?

The next step should be for CCP to remove the log of rat kills. The only intel that should be publicly available is player ship and pod kills, presumably public knowledge released by the insurance companies.

Then please CCP be consequent and:

• Remove intel of NPCs killed in WH Systems


• Remove intel of Ships destroyes in WH Systems


• Remove intel of Pods killed in WH Systems

I'd actually like to see local put in delayed mode for all other systems, free intel? Work for it!

I don't really think we're nerfing WH space as a whole. This is a pretty big information loophole where players outside of wormholes will be able to map population, activity etc. That's not intended and needs to get fixed.

On the other hand, we've done a lot for wormholes in Crucibles, especially when it comes to living out of a POS and using bookmarks. As a sidenote, expect more changes like that in our next major patch. Overall, life in WH space should be getting easier as a side effect of us improving related features.

Hey guys

We're reviewing the information the API provides in exploration space. The baseline is that it's unknown space and it seems like the API has been giving out a bit too much information. There will probably be further changes in this area.

If you're going to wash jumps out of the API, take NPC kills with it. Go ahead a keep ship and pod kills, as CONCORD will probably have this info based on existing technology and services (insurance, clone usage). As the NPCs do not have bounties, this info should NOT be available for free.

While I have no trouble adapting to the sudden and unanticipated change to WH space, I find the lack of discussion/warning . . . troubling.

WH space has always been the most risky in EVE, I don't mind that at all, I just wish we had a little more warning. The difference between "no jumps this morning, follow slow day protocol" vs "the intel channel is dead, follow risky day protocol" is substantial in an area of space where getting podded carries a greater penalty than anywhere else in the game.

It's much simpler to assume this... loss of jump API info doesn't really change that.

...
Can you imagine CCP changing local in null to WH local without prior discussion or at least a warning in the patch notes? Why was W-space treated with less consideration?

Make no mistake CCP this is a deal killer for small WH corps! If your not currently in a small WH corp, or have in the past been actively in one, your going to have a hard time relating in a real way to the implications of not knowing if your static is spawned or not (please see similar forum thread in EVE Technology Lab forums).

An approximate comparison for non WH dwellers would be you log on eve tomorrow and find that CCP has changed missions and incursions so that you now must dock and undock 20 times (with a 3min wait between docking cycles) in a 0.0 system w/o local every time before you run a string of missions or do a series of incursions. Further more you risk having your ship transported across the internet on the last docking attempt if you haven't kept careful tally, and if this does happen, you will be unable to JC back to your starting system.

***** and moan all you want about small corp WH dwellers, but if this restriction on the API jump counter doesn't change everyone can look forward to a yet another further depopulated area of the game.

our normal operating procedures.

It's a good thing you aren't a businessman then, as you seem to have a gross misunderstanding of how to treat a customer :) You seem pretty spiteful today. You mad because the customer base isn't giving CCP free labor?

This topic is a HUGE problem for small corps, lets get the thread refocused, also there are a few other forum threads dealing w/ this issue, please chkout a similar post in the EVE Technology Lab forums.

Make no mistake CCP this is a deal killer for small WH corps! If your not currently in a small WH corp, or have in the past been actively in one, your going to have a hard time relating in a real way to the implications of not knowing if your static is spawned or not (please see similar forum thread in EVE Technology Lab forums). An approximate comparison for non WH dwellers would be you log on eve tomorrow and find that CCP has changed missions and incursions so that you now must dock and undock 20 times (with a 3min wait between docking cycles) in a 0.0 system w/o local every time before you run a string of missions or do a series of incursions. Further more you risk having your ship transported across the internet on the last docking attempt if you haven't kept careful tally, and if this does happen, you will be unable to JC back to your starting system. ***** and moan all you want about small corp WH dwellers, but if this restriction on the API jump counter doesn't change everyone can look forward to a yet another further depopulated area of the game.

Why in the world would ANY paying customer be told they "should" be bug reporting a game? Bug reports are a service provided to CCP by their paid QA employees, not their customers. That's like paying for a sandwhich and then being told to make it yourself.

I look forward to this depopulation greatly.

Hey guys

We're reviewing the information the API provides in exploration space. The baseline is that it's unknown space and it seems like the API has been giving out a bit too much information. There will probably be further changes in this area.