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Sticky:[Scylla] Medium Railguns

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Caleb Seremshur The Atomic Fallout Kids 491	Posted - 2015.02.28 03:25:49 - [61] - Quote Soldarius wrote: Forgot to say something. Medium rails were one of the few systems that only needed a bit of a tweak; and that is exactly what they got. Looks good. Oh good now they can fix the heavy missile weapon system by giving it some more application. Explosion velocity please. Least offensive balance change you can do. As for medium rails themselves I haven't use them since I ran L3's in a ferox. Years ago. Faction warfare pilot and solo/small gang PVP advocate
Lug Muad'Dib Wise Humans Sword 37	Posted - 2015.02.28 09:45:57 - [62] - Quote Dual 150 are so OP.. Isn't only some 250mm plateform that are problematic ? CCP Rise wrote: There are of course many contributing factors to the popularity of those ships, but railguns are simply the simplest angle of attack for us when it comes to having a small impact on all of them at once. does it mean i'm lazy so i take the easy way ?!? D-Scan immunity is dumb.
Aiyshimin Fistful of Finns Triumvirate. 417	Posted - 2015.02.28 10:14:35 - [63] - Quote Sven Viko VIkolander wrote: The problem with this change is that it will essentially kill numerous medium rail platforms that are not widely used, but still have certain roles while solo/smallgang/fleet (such as: rail thorax, rail deimos, rail vigilant rail exeq navy issue, and even the rail moa and rail eagles which are just barely viable and even then because BNI fleets are generally SP limited, so cannot use tengus etc.). Yet the change is probably not good enough to kill the rail tengu fleet meta as people will still just bring more, or only undock if they have 7%+ more people post-nerf. So basically what this change will accomplish is: it will virtually kill about a dozen medium rail platforms, while only moderately reducing the effectiveness of the rail tengu (a reduction that can be fixed by bringing more people in the fleet). I love my rail ENI to bits, but I'm also willing to admit that with the current rail dps there is very little reason to fit blasters on anything anymore. All Proteuses on TQ have been 250mm fit since the buff, and so are Vigilant, two of the most iconic blaster platforms have become rail platforms. I also enjoy rails on Phobos and Lach, but the dps really just is a bit too much. I hope this 7.5% isn't too much, and they still remain viable options. However, it is also true that Tengu being stupidly OP as a hull has already resulted in the nerf of two weapon systems. Perhaps it is time to take a deeper look at Tengu itself instead of skirting around the problem. The tanking buff certainly does not solve the issue, it should be nerfed instead.
Discomanco We pooped on your lawn Resonance. 117	Posted - 2015.02.28 10:16:26 - [64] - Quote Lug Muad'Dib wrote: Dual 150 are so OP.. Isn't only some 250mm plateform that are problematic ? CCP Rise wrote: There are of course many contributing factors to the popularity of those ships, but railguns are simply the simplest angle of attack for us when it comes to having a small impact on all of them at once. does it mean i'm lazy so i take the easy way ?!? Not even sure it's only some platforms. I tried with Heavy Neutron vs 250mm Rail on a Vaga, and they are dangerously close in DPS. Vaga; 5 Heavy Neutron T2, Fed Navy Antimatter 4 Magstabs T2 446 DPS, 2.25+6.25 Vaga; 5 250mm Railgun T2, Fed Navy Antimatter 4 Magstabs T2 409 DPS, 18+15 37 DPS vs 24.5km still seems off (considering it's an unbonused hull)
Jacob Holland Weyland-Vulcan Industries 378	Posted - 2015.02.28 10:46:28 - [65] - Quote All types is perhaps a little heavy - Do Dual 150s really need a nerf?
Idame Isqua Vipres' Templis CALSF 0	Posted - 2015.02.28 10:51:45 - [66] - Quote Nivin Sajjad wrote: CCP wrote: Shout-out here to CSM member mynnna for a great internal discussion on this topic. He raised the point that if you look at these weapon systems on their own, rather than comparing the ships using them, they look very balanced. It would follow then that the problem is more about Tengu, Eagle and Vulture than about rails. So far so good. CCP wrote: However, we can never look at weapon systems or ships without taking the other into consideration.The relationship between cap use of energy weapons and ships with cap use bonuses for energy weapons is another good example where trying to look at one without the other causes problems. We are therefore happy to consider balancing via the weapons or the ships depending on which fits the situation best. In this case, we are happy to use rails as the avenue because it is much simpler for us to design and you to adjust to. I'm going to take that "however" to mean "mynnna is correct in this instance, however...", in which case the followup reasoning actually contradicts CCP's own proposed actions. This is what the devblog line of reasoning looks like to me: Certain medium rail using ships are unbalanced. This unbalance is caused by a combination of weapon stats and ship bonuses, and any balance proposal should consider both. We are therefore happy to muck around with the performance of every single medium rail using ship in the game, regardless of how their particular bonuses interact with the weapon system. This is because a de facto change to every single medium rail using ship in the game is easier to adjust to, compared to a change to only 3 troublesome ship types. Hopefully you can see how this makes no sense. Quote2: "Not even sure it's only some platforms. I tried with Heavy Neutron vs 250mm Rail on a Vaga, and they are dangerously close in DPS. Vaga; 5 Heavy Neutron T2, Fed Navy Antimatter 4 Magstabs T2 446 DPS, 2.25+6.25 Vaga; 5 250mm Railgun T2, Fed Navy Antimatter 4 Magstabs T2 409 DPS, 18+15" If CCP understands the game as little as you do god help us! CCPlease
Smurfette Zoohl Native Freshfood Minmatar Republic 0	Posted - 2015.02.28 11:23:45 - [67] - Quote Caleb Seremshur wrote: Soldarius wrote: Forgot to say something. Medium rails were one of the few systems that only needed a bit of a tweak; and that is exactly what they got. Looks good. Oh good now they can fix the heavy missile weapon system by giving it some more application. Explosion velocity please. Least offensive balance change you can do. As for medium rails themselves I haven't use them since I ran L3's in a ferox. Years ago. Yea missiles could use a bit of loving
Arinola Pendoler The Imperterrits 0	Posted - 2015.02.28 11:38:45 - [68] - Quote Preciselly 250 medium railguns is what I use to PVE and get some ISK... I finished to get the skill a couple of weeks ago... Bad luck... Im nerfed :( -+Maybe there is a solution for PVP that doesnt affect my PVE ship? Just asking, I know its complicated stuff...
Bronson Hughes The Knights of the Blessed Mother of Acceleration 1441	Posted - 2015.02.28 13:36:34 - [69] - Quote Arinola Pendoler wrote: Preciselly 250 medium railguns is what I use to PVE and get some ISK... I finished to get the skill a couple of weeks ago... Bad luck... Im nerfed :( -+Maybe there is a solution for PVP that doesnt affect my PVE ship? Just asking, I know its complicated stuff... Every ship is a PvP ship. My Many Misadventures Reading Comprehension: so important it deserves it's own skillbook. I seek to create content, not become content.
Arinola Pendoler The Imperterrits 0	Posted - 2015.02.28 15:05:33 - [70] - Quote Bronson Hughes wrote: Arinola Pendoler wrote: Preciselly 250 medium railguns is what I use to PVE and get some ISK... I finished to get the skill a couple of weeks ago... Bad luck... Im nerfed :( -+Maybe there is a solution for PVP that doesnt affect my PVE ship? Just asking, I know its complicated stuff... Every ship is a PvP ship. Touch+¬.... But still, for those that use medium railguns for pve and are going to be nerfed like me, maybe a compensation for PVE could be an increase of the ammo capacity to reduce the time reloading the guns... Its just an idea from a noob like me, who reached medium railguns V recently ;)

Omnathious Deninard Novis Initiis 2739	Posted - 2015.02.28 17:10:38 - [71] - Quote Confirming even post nerf these are going to be better than the old railguns. And there were a lot of us who used them for pve before there initial buff.
Ines Tegator Serious Business Inc. Ltd. LLC. etc. 569	Posted - 2015.02.28 19:25:46 - [72] - Quote [Gnosis, Railguns 250] Magnetic Field Stabilizer II Magnetic Field Stabilizer II Magnetic Field Stabilizer II [Empty Low slot] [Empty Low slot] [Empty Low slot] [Empty Med slot] [Empty Med slot] [Empty Med slot] [Empty Med slot] [Empty Med slot] [Empty Med slot] 250mm Railgun II, Antimatter Charge M 250mm Railgun II, Antimatter Charge M 250mm Railgun II, Antimatter Charge M 250mm Railgun II, Antimatter Charge M 250mm Railgun II, Antimatter Charge M [Empty High slot] [Empty Rig slot] [Empty Rig slot] [Empty Rig slot] Medium Railguns, Tech 1 Short Range Ammo, 3 DPS mods, All 5 Skills 419 DPS [Gnosis, Lasers] Heat Sink II Heat Sink II Heat Sink II [Empty Low slot] [Empty Low slot] [Empty Low slot] [Empty Med slot] [Empty Med slot] [Empty Med slot] [Empty Med slot] [Empty Med slot] [Empty Med slot] Heavy Pulse Laser II, Multifrequency M Heavy Pulse Laser II, Multifrequency M Heavy Pulse Laser II, Multifrequency M Heavy Pulse Laser II, Multifrequency M Heavy Pulse Laser II, Multifrequency M [Empty High slot] [Empty Rig slot] [Empty Rig slot] [Empty Rig slot] Medium Pulse Lasers, Tech 1 Short Range Ammo, 3 DPS mods, All 5 Skills 373 DPS Would anyone else like to argue that the problem is with a few specific ships? Long range guns are putting out more RAW dps then short range guns. Something is obviously wrong. Nerf is justified. All hail the nerf. Overhaul Dscan! Make your own rules - Noobs to Null / Casual Vets Corp
O2 jayjay Tit-EE Sprinkles Stratagem. 19	Posted - 2015.02.28 23:17:10 - [73] - Quote I think the 7.5% should apply to cal ships only and the Proteus s getting Nerf. Don't need to mess with the gallente ships or you will break rails for them again. Also people dont understand that 250 track like crap. DPS doesnt matter when you cant apply them. Blaster have decent tracking but are made for brawling.
Alexis Nightwish 101	Posted - 2015.02.28 23:49:16 - [74] - Quote Ines Tegator wrote: [Gnosis, Railguns 250] Magnetic Field Stabilizer II Magnetic Field Stabilizer II Magnetic Field Stabilizer II [Empty Low slot] [Empty Low slot] [Empty Low slot] [Empty Med slot] [Empty Med slot] [Empty Med slot] [Empty Med slot] [Empty Med slot] [Empty Med slot] 250mm Railgun II, Antimatter Charge M 250mm Railgun II, Antimatter Charge M 250mm Railgun II, Antimatter Charge M 250mm Railgun II, Antimatter Charge M 250mm Railgun II, Antimatter Charge M [Empty High slot] [Empty Rig slot] [Empty Rig slot] [Empty Rig slot] Medium Railguns, Tech 1 Short Range Ammo, 3 DPS mods, All 5 Skills 419 DPS [Gnosis, Lasers] Heat Sink II Heat Sink II Heat Sink II [Empty Low slot] [Empty Low slot] [Empty Low slot] [Empty Med slot] [Empty Med slot] [Empty Med slot] [Empty Med slot] [Empty Med slot] [Empty Med slot] Heavy Pulse Laser II, Multifrequency M Heavy Pulse Laser II, Multifrequency M Heavy Pulse Laser II, Multifrequency M Heavy Pulse Laser II, Multifrequency M Heavy Pulse Laser II, Multifrequency M [Empty High slot] [Empty Rig slot] [Empty Rig slot] [Empty Rig slot] Medium Pulse Lasers, Tech 1 Short Range Ammo, 3 DPS mods, All 5 Skills 373 DPS Would anyone else like to argue that the problem is with a few specific ships? Long range guns are putting out more RAW dps then short range guns. Something is obviously wrong. Nerf is justified. All hail the nerf. Ines Tegator, that's not the full story. [Gnosis, Dual 150mm Rail] Magnetic Field Stabilizer II Magnetic Field Stabilizer II Magnetic Field Stabilizer II [empty low slot] [empty low slot] [empty low slot] [empty med slot] [empty med slot] [empty med slot] [empty med slot] [empty med slot] [empty med slot] Dual 150mm Railgun II, Antimatter Charge M Dual 150mm Railgun II, Antimatter Charge M Dual 150mm Railgun II, Antimatter Charge M Dual 150mm Railgun II, Antimatter Charge M Dual 150mm Railgun II, Antimatter Charge M [empty high slot] 368 DPS [Gnosis, Dual 200mm Rail] Magnetic Field Stabilizer II Magnetic Field Stabilizer II Magnetic Field Stabilizer II [empty low slot] [empty low slot] [empty low slot] [empty med slot] [empty med slot] [empty med slot] [empty med slot] [empty med slot] [empty med slot] 200mm Railgun II, Antimatter Charge M 200mm Railgun II, Antimatter Charge M 200mm Railgun II, Antimatter Charge M 200mm Railgun II, Antimatter Charge M 200mm Railgun II, Antimatter Charge M [empty high slot] 388 DPS [Gnosis, Quad Light Beam] Heat Sink II Heat Sink II Heat Sink II [empty low slot] [empty low slot] [empty low slot] [empty med slot] [empty med slot] [empty med slot] [empty med slot] [empty med slot] [empty med slot] Quad Light Beam Laser II, Multifrequency M Quad Light Beam Laser II, Multifrequency M Quad Light Beam Laser II, Multifrequency M Quad Light Beam Laser II, Multifrequency M Quad Light Beam Laser II, Multifrequency M [empty high slot] 389 DPS [Gnosis, Focused Medium Beam] Heat Sink II Heat Sink II Heat Sink II [empty low slot] [empty low slot] [empty low slot] [empty med slot] [empty med slot] [empty med slot] [empty med slot] [empty med slot] [empty med slot] Focused Medium Beam Laser II, Multifrequency M Focused Medium Beam Laser II, Multifrequency M Focused Medium Beam Laser II, Multifrequency M Focused Medium Beam Laser II, Multifrequency M Focused Medium Beam Laser II, Multifrequency M [empty high slot] 340 DPS SUMMARY: 419 DPS: 250mm Railgun II, Antimatter Charge M 373 DPS: Heavy Pulse Laser II, Multifrequency M 388 DPS: 200mm Railgun II, Antimatter Charge M 340 DPS: Focused Medium Beam Laser II, Multifrequency M 368 DPS: Dual 150mm Railgun II, Antimatter Charge M 389 DPS: Quad Light Beam Laser II, Multifrequency M CCP, please don't apply this nerf to the Dual 150s. They aren't broken in the way 200s and 250s are. CCP only approaches a problem in one of two ways: nudge or cludge
Specia1 K State War Academy Caldari State 17	Posted - 2015.02.28 23:53:40 - [75] - Quote Ines Tegator wrote: [Gnosis, Railguns 250] Magnetic Field Stabilizer II Magnetic Field Stabilizer II Magnetic Field Stabilizer II [Empty Low slot] [Empty Low slot] [Empty Low slot] [Empty Med slot] [Empty Med slot] [Empty Med slot] [Empty Med slot] [Empty Med slot] [Empty Med slot] 250mm Railgun II, Antimatter Charge M 250mm Railgun II, Antimatter Charge M 250mm Railgun II, Antimatter Charge M 250mm Railgun II, Antimatter Charge M 250mm Railgun II, Antimatter Charge M [Empty High slot] [Empty Rig slot] [Empty Rig slot] [Empty Rig slot] Medium Railguns, Tech 1 Short Range Ammo, 3 DPS mods, All 5 Skills 419 DPS [Gnosis, Lasers] Heat Sink II Heat Sink II Heat Sink II [Empty Low slot] [Empty Low slot] [Empty Low slot] [Empty Med slot] [Empty Med slot] [Empty Med slot] [Empty Med slot] [Empty Med slot] [Empty Med slot] Heavy Pulse Laser II, Multifrequency M Heavy Pulse Laser II, Multifrequency M Heavy Pulse Laser II, Multifrequency M Heavy Pulse Laser II, Multifrequency M Heavy Pulse Laser II, Multifrequency M [Empty High slot] [Empty Rig slot] [Empty Rig slot] [Empty Rig slot] Medium Pulse Lasers, Tech 1 Short Range Ammo, 3 DPS mods, All 5 Skills 373 DPS Would anyone else like to argue that the problem is with a few specific ships? Long range guns are putting out more RAW dps then short range guns. Something is obviously wrong. Nerf is justified. All hail the nerf. Apples to apples please: [Gnosis,Gnosis] 5x Heavy Beam Laser II (Multifrequency M) 3x Heat Sink II All skills to 5, 408dps. tracking: 0.037125 (vs 0.025625 for rails)
afkalt Republic Military School Minmatar Republic 787	Posted - 2015.03.01 00:09:38 - [76] - Quote Rails still do more damage at longer ranges though. (15+10 vs 18+15) Lasers also use more than triple the cap per shot. (16gj vs 5.25gj). Rof not significantly out at lasers doing 4.32 vs rails @3.9 (no dps mods here) There may be an element of rounding here, it's from a phone fitting tool.
Loken Grimsward Easy Co. Fatal Ascension 3	Posted - 2015.03.01 09:12:53 - [77] - Quote I dont see a good reason to nerf railguns. If your intention is to change the meta so pilots are not exclusively flying Ishtars with sentries and Tengu with rail guns wouldn't it be better to just nerf the hulls? Nerfing the weapon systems also nerfs every other ship that can use that weapon system. Doesn't sound like it will balance anthing at all to be honest.
Arinola Pendoler The Imperterrits 0	Posted - 2015.03.01 09:28:38 - [78] - Quote Loken Grimsward wrote: I dont see a good reason to nerf railguns. If your intention is to change the meta so pilots are not exclusively flying Ishtars with sentries and Tengu with rail guns wouldn't it be better to just nerf the hulls? Nerfing the weapon systems also nerfs every other ship that can use that weapon system. Doesn't sound like it will balance anthing at all to be honest. Im agree, I use Railguns in a diferent way and Im going to be heavily punished for this nerf. If advised i would not train Medium railguns.
Gregor Parud Ordo Ardish 1225	Posted - 2015.03.01 09:50:03 - [79] - Quote "nerf all med rails" makes no sense apart from "uuuuhm, we can't be bothered to figure it out". 250mm being too good is obvious, 200mm is already borderline and nerfing dual 150 is just moronic. I'm old Gregor.
Valkin Mordirc 666	Posted - 2015.03.01 13:23:12 - [80] - Quote Reading through the comments and see what others have posted. 250mm need the nerf, not ALL Medium ral guns. CPP You cray cray if you think this is a decent idea. Not to attack you or anything but this seems like a lazy rushed fix to the game which hurts more than then it fixes. Yes 250mm need to be fixed. But not a Nerf to all medium rails. `#DeleteTheWeak`

afkalt Republic Military School Minmatar Republic 791	Posted - 2015.03.01 13:58:25 - [81] - Quote 200s are stupid too, stop deluding yourselves.
elitatwo Eve Minions Poopstain Removal Team 584	Posted - 2015.03.01 21:15:31 - [82] - Quote Ha! Nerf the Ferox! The Ferox was way too (un-)strongh for a long time now, time to nerf that ship.. signature
DrysonBennington Aliastra Gallente Federation 215	Posted - 2015.03.01 21:20:19 - [83] - Quote So I guess us Gallente are going to have to start throwing Squid's (Caldari) and Amie's (Amarr) at the enemy now. I don't have a problem with that.
Kiryen O'Bannon Silver Guardians Fidelas Constans 214	Posted - 2015.03.02 01:40:17 - [84] - Quote I think it would be more appropriate to wait and see what effects the Tengu changes have and then decide to what degree rails need changes.
Caleb Seremshur The Atomic Fallout Kids 500	Posted - 2015.03.02 03:30:35 - [85] - Quote From what I can see here, people not being super huttburt over this change implies that nerfing the ishtar was not going to mean that railgus became the next meta. Perhaps I am wrong but the overwhelming amount of stupid overflowing from the skynet change implicates that this particular change here with railguns as being of much smaller impact to the populace. Faction warfare pilot and solo/small gang PVP advocate
Victini 0	Posted - 2015.03.02 07:24:24 - [86] - Quote 7.5% is too strong hit... 5% is more suitable
Chi'Nane T'Kal Interminatus Aeterna Anima 306	Posted - 2015.03.02 10:20:34 - [87] - Quote I have to agree on two points raised: - the nerf seems a bit excessive, with the more frequent update scheme smaller steps would make more sense. - your most compelling argument is the proliferation of railguns in doctrines. There are two main factors contributing to that, hull power and weapon system power. You're adressing both parameters at the same time, which is scientifically unsound. It would make more sense to follow up on the defensive subsystem change with a period of observation and then follow up with a railgun change - if it is still necessary. Again the more frequent update scheme would easily allow such a strategy.
Dracvlad Taishi Combine Second-Dawn 656	Posted - 2015.03.02 11:04:59 - [88] - Quote Chi'Nane T'Kal wrote: I have to agree on two points raised: - the nerf seems a bit excessive, with the more frequent update scheme smaller steps would make more sense. - your most compelling argument is the proliferation of railguns in doctrines. There are two main factors contributing to that, hull power and weapon system power. You're adressing both parameters at the same time, which is scientifically unsound. It would make more sense to follow up on the defensive subsystem change with a period of observation and then follow up with a railgun change - if it is still necessary. Again the more frequent update scheme would easily allow such a strategy. This would be my suggestion as rail guns were just a meh gun type for most of my Eve time, now they are usable, however this post makes total sense because so much of Eve is adjusted because of large fleet meta's and that gets wearing, when most of the issue centres around buffers and RR, but if you do nerf medium rail guns 7.5% ROF is a bit much, 5% sounds better. Ella's Snack bar
Omnathious Deninard Novis Initiis 2743	Posted - 2015.03.02 12:10:10 - [89] - Quote Before damage mods a thorax with 5 250mm railguns, navy antimatter, and level 5 skills will deal 300 DPS currently. After this nerf it will do about 277 DPS, it is not that big of a nerd and comically enough still has almost as much DPS as 425mm railguns.
Sinigr Shadowsong Monkey Attack Squad Goonswarm Federation 134	Posted - 2015.03.02 14:13:02 - [90] - Quote CCP Rise wrote: As announced last night on the o7 show, we have a list of high-impact balance changes planned for Scylla. One of those changes is a reduction in rate of fire for all medium railguns by 7.5% for all types. Did you mean increase in rate of fire? Because lower RoF value goes more DPS you apply. "Attack speed" goes the other way, but there is no such term in EVE.



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