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Glathull
Warlock Assassins
967
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Posted - 2015.02.28 20:59:04 -
[31] - Quote
flakeys wrote:Glathull wrote:The only way to remove killboards is to remove kills.
Is that really the position some of you are intending to take? Yup , the question is do you want a kill to show off to your friends how awsome you are or do you just want a kill so that your opponent ''suffered a loss''.If it isn't for e-peening then what would a killmail contribute?I've allways done pvp to kick the opponent on the ground , and in a lot of cases he burried me in the ground. Killmails only have a negative impact on pvp. Edit : I just looked at your killboard.I find it quite odd/funny that you with a totally **** killboard stat - total off 95 M kills and 20.8% eff - is opposed to removing killmails while i have a ''more then decent'' killboardstat -total 1.32 T kills 97.5% eff - yet would like to see them removed.It puzzles me why you would be opposed to their removal unless that is not your main character and even then .But then you might be puzzled why i would like them to be removed .
You misread my words. I didn't say get rid of killmails. I said the only way to get rid of killboards is to get rid of kills.
Is that what you would like? No more killing? I think that kind of policy would have a much more chilling effect on pvp. (do I need to put this in sarcasm tags for you?)
I obviously do not care about my killboard. Read my posts, diphthong. I welp ships for fun. I have a good time fail-fitting ships and going out and losing them whenever I feel like it. I do not care at all about what my kb looks like.
I honestly feel like I just read fifty shades of dumb. --CCP Falcon
Shut up, Anslo. --everyone
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Mr Epeen
It's All About Me
7831
|
Posted - 2015.02.28 21:05:49 -
[32] - Quote
vccv wrote:Kiandoshia wrote:Get rid of killboards. I 100% agree with this statement.
Pencil me in on this one. KBs ruin PVP more than carebears do. I've scattered whole camps solo because of their fear of lowering efficiency.
No KB = more PVP, in my opinion.
Mr Epeen 
There are 86,400 seconds in a day. You just saved one of them by typing 'u' instead of 'you'.-á Congratulations, dumbass!
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Glathull
Warlock Assassins
967
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Posted - 2015.02.28 21:24:22 -
[33] - Quote
Mr Epeen wrote:vccv wrote:Kiandoshia wrote:Get rid of killboards. I 100% agree with this statement. Pencil me in on this one. KBs ruin PVP more than carebears do. I've scattered whole camps solo because of their fear of lowering efficiency. No KB = more PVP, in my opinion. Mr Epeen
So you think EvE either can or should stop tracking kills?
Or you think CCP should just shut off the api for kills? And you are assuming that this is just a simple off switch that they can hit as soon as they are convinced by your e-peen that this needs to happen? Do you want it completely gone, or do you just want certain numbers gone? Do you still want the free Intel you get on a player by looking up what they have lost in the past? Or do you just want win/loss numbers gone?
Be specific. Destroy all killboards is not a reasonable thing to say. It's a completely f***tarded thing to say unless you want to talk about a specific mechanism.
I honestly feel like I just read fifty shades of dumb. --CCP Falcon
Shut up, Anslo. --everyone
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Steppa Musana
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
20
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Posted - 2015.02.28 21:25:39 -
[34] - Quote
Meh if people want to judge themselves or others on a KB thats their business. More metrics, yes. But to say the KB is a problem?
There are the players that are too risk averse b/c of the killboard, but for everyone one of them there is another who thinks hes invulnerable because he can camp a gate. That and the wanting to grind up KB statistics leads to more PVP overall. Killboard good. |
Herzog Wolfhammer
Sigma Special Tactics Group
6328
|
Posted - 2015.02.28 21:32:07 -
[35] - Quote
Rain6637 wrote:I was under the impression the points systems on killboard sites accounted for this.
While we're on the topic of killmails for the sake of meaning, remove ISK values from in-game killmails to reduce some of the risk aversion that is so deeply ingrained in EVE's player culture.
Worrying about killboards is part of the risk aversion problem. On top of ISK value, there's this subjective l337 factor. If it's important to you, why isn't it enough to evaluate killmails by your personal standards and beliefs... and why do you think it's necessary to change killmails for what they convey? They're already a record of engagements, isn't that sufficient?
You are asking to remove the one thing that lets a person spend only a 10th of a second looking at a KB: Muh stats!
That might be a bit much. I bet if you saw too many square pegs jammed into round holes you'd think that taking away the hammer would help?
Bring back DEEEEP Space!
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Pok Nibin
Filial Pariahs
547
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Posted - 2015.02.28 21:56:12 -
[36] - Quote
Scipio Artelius wrote:Pok Nibin wrote:risk aversion - uh, until recently we called this "intelligence"
kids these days In a game where there is nothing lost but enjoyment, it's not intelligent, it's just dumb and boring. I have fun the way I have fun. You, I assume, do the same. I don't come around telling you how YOU should have fun.
I'd appreciate the same from you, but I somehow get the idea you think it's perfectly fine to step all over my backyard.
(I keep large dogs; one of my "fun" things to do.)
Oh yes. The OP. These self-same fools have to have a "lookit me!" device. Hence, killboards.
Dont fight it; Rejoin your Amarrian patriarchs; You know you want to.
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Serene Repose
2315
|
Posted - 2015.02.28 22:16:34 -
[37] - Quote
Killboards should include how many times you floss, what your dress size is (guys, too) so we can monitor that fluctuation, and how many judicial restraints you have on you in how many countries/states. Let the stats speak! 
Treason never prospers. What is the reason?
Why, if it prospers, none dare call it "treason."
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Delt0r Garsk
Shits N Giggles
308
|
Posted - 2015.02.28 22:58:40 -
[38] - Quote
Kill boards are fine. Getting rid of them just means that they will move to 3rd party kill tracking anyway. People that are all efficiency whatever will be that way no matter what.
Killboards do leak a massive amount of intel, but its the same for everyone. When we are scouting, i don't look at kill/death ratio or anything like that. I look at the specific details of the kills. Is this a F1 monkey? Or perhaps its the slightly more advanced orbit F1 monkey. Not to be outdone by the worst PvP of all, the assign drones monkey. Do they have friends/alts links etc. You can work this out pretty quickly from the killboard.
A killboard with a fairly consistent smattering of deaths will be a far more deadly foe, and often a lot more fun to fight with.
As for ranking. Well the ONLY rank that would make any sense with internet space pixels would be fun. Who has had the most fun!
Death and Glory!
Well fun is also good.
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Scipio Artelius
The Vendunari
End of Life
34154
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Posted - 2015.02.28 23:54:42 -
[39] - Quote
Pok Nibin wrote:Scipio Artelius wrote:Pok Nibin wrote:risk aversion - uh, until recently we called this "intelligence"
kids these days In a game where there is nothing lost but enjoyment, it's not intelligent, it's just dumb and boring. I have fun the way I have fun. You, I assume, do the same. I don't come around telling you how YOU should have fun. I'd appreciate the same from you, but I somehow get the idea you think it's perfectly fine to step all over my backyard. (I keep large dogs; one of my "fun" things to do.) Oh yes. The OP. These self-same fools have to have a "lookit me!" device. Hence, killboards.
What? Where exactly did I tell you how you should have fun?
How you get any idea about what my preference are is all in your imagination, since you can't possibly know. Well, you can check my killboard and see where I have fun. if that means we'll meet in pvp some day, then great. Hope we have a gf.
If not, then **** off with your judgement of others. Generation has nothing to do with it.
Risk aversion isn't an intelligent thing. Intelligent risk management is always smart, but being averse to risk only limits possibilities. Manage risk. Don't be averse to it.
Come Win At Eve - Join The Vendunari
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Marsha Mallow
1975
|
Posted - 2015.03.01 00:59:31 -
[40] - Quote
Delt0r Garsk wrote:Kill boards are fine. Getting rid of them just means that they will move to 3rd party kill tracking anyway. People that are all efficiency whatever will be that way no matter what.
Killboards do leak a massive amount of intel, but its the same for everyone. When we are scouting, i don't look at kill/death ratio or anything like that. I look at the specific details of the kills. Is this a F1 monkey? Or perhaps its the slightly more advanced orbit F1 monkey. Not to be outdone by the worst PvP of all, the assign drones monkey. Do they have friends/alts links etc. You can work this out pretty quickly from the killboard.
A killboard with a fairly consistent smattering of deaths will be a far more deadly foe, and often a lot more fun to fight with.
As for ranking. Well the ONLY rank that would make any sense with internet space pixels would be fun. Who has had the most fun!
Well said. Elite F1 orbit monkey checking in. Killboards are a useful intel tool, but some of you seem to think efficiencies are impacting whether or not you will get fights in a way that is a bit baffling. Decent medium to large groups provide SRP and haze their own members on silly losses, but other than that it's something to laugh about. Otherwise alliances would disband everytime they suffer a major loss and their members would ragequit. Bads will be bads with or without killmails and killboards, and they'll probably still not take uneven odds even without a record of the fight. Depends if they are fighting for a strat op or for the sake of it. Small gang and soloers have more opportunity than at any point I've known ingame to mess with small, cheap ships for fun or training.
Killboards and epeen aren't the only factors when people won't take a fight. It doesn't signify cowardice or risk aversion to back down from fights you know you won't win or won't enjoy - unless you're the type who thinks everyone should just charge in blindly, because you do. You don't get to dictate what someone else finds fun. If you are daft enough to blob a smaller group or take an overpowered comp against someone, it's your own fault if they give you the finger then leg it. Whinging on the forums about how risk averse 'everyone' is because of killboards just shows who the tools are. Do you actually think removing killmails and killboards will make 'everyone' suddenly charge into fights with their pants on their head? Really all the KB whines amount to is chestbeating from bads about how brave you are in comparison to everyone else, which is an obvious lie if you're whining on a forum.
@ OP anyway, I'd love to see more stats on kbs.I've noticed some players ignore newssites altogether but can read killboards in a fairly sophisticated way even as they are. I don't think GD is the correct forum to demand changes given these are 3rd party tools created by players who, in all fairness, get a lot of stick from players for what looks to be a fairly thankless task. Not sure if zkill/evekill has it's own forum for suggestions but battleclinic has recently revamped theirs so perhaps they are looking at it. EvEMon does afaik. The tech lab subforum has a few codemonkeys floating around, so maybe it's worth sticking a topic up in there to request kb features rather than have this topic derailed.
DON'T BE RIDICULOUS!
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DaReaper
Net 7
1816
|
Posted - 2015.03.01 01:03:48 -
[41] - Quote
billboards are player made, so make your own.
kill mails are trophies, humans like to show off states, it in our nature. so shouldn't go anywhere
OMG Comet Mining idea!!! Comet Mining!
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Kiandoshia
Applied Anarchy
SpaceMonkey's Alliance
2174
|
Posted - 2015.03.01 02:20:05 -
[42] - Quote
Glathull wrote:The only way to remove killboards is to remove kills.
Is that really the position some of you are intending to take?
...
Get rid of stats tracking.
That better? |
Exotic Matters
Fried Liver Attack
27
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Posted - 2015.03.01 03:24:10 -
[43] - Quote
Just because something can never really be a perfect indicator of anything and will always be flawed, does not me that it shouldn't be improved.
Even if you don't think it should exist, it does, and its not going anywhere, so why not improve it.
I do think that some of those that dislike killboards in general are those who would rather that the intel was not available to be used against them. Not that they don't pay attention to it themselves, and at least on some value care how it how well they do on it. Or perhaps they don't want a reliable indicator of skill because they are afraid that it would reflect badly on them. If the stats are obviously meaningless, as they are, then it isn't a threat to them. |
Kiandoshia
Applied Anarchy
SpaceMonkey's Alliance
2174
|
Posted - 2015.03.01 03:54:27 -
[44] - Quote
Yes, by all means, improve them. I just think right now, they're pretty terrible and they make people do really terrible and stupid things, like you know... fitting ***** railguns to Scimitars. |
Delt0r Garsk
Shits N Giggles
309
|
Posted - 2015.03.01 08:05:03 -
[45] - Quote
Kiandoshia wrote:Yes, by all means, improve them. I just think right now, they're pretty terrible and they make people do really terrible and stupid things, like you know... fitting ***** railguns to Scimitars.
Oh come on, that kind of stuff is funny. We even have the odd Worst fit fleets where the worst fits win. And no an amour drake is not even close to the worse fits you see on these roams.
I personally try to have something funny in the cargo hold. For example my Police comets are full of slaver hounds and are all called k9. Or my first scimi loss in really really bad lag, i had a Unit of Lag in the hold.
Lose mails can be fun too!
Then there is the "OMG i can't believe i just did that" loss mails. I did lose a Freighter full of fuel to our own pos! The freighter alt was in a NPC corp and i got the POS passwd wrong..... I am now know as the welpinator in corp.
No killboards are entertaining and make the game fun in many respects for me. I play for fun, so you know this may mean that i am bit odd in the Eve Universe.
Death and Glory!
Well fun is also good.
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Tipa Riot
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
149
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Posted - 2015.03.01 09:10:57 -
[46] - Quote
Mr Epeen wrote:vccv wrote:Kiandoshia wrote:Get rid of killboards. I 100% agree with this statement. Pencil me in on this one. KBs ruin PVP more than carebears do. I've scattered whole camps solo because of their fear of lowering efficiency. No KB = more PVP, in my opinion. Mr Epeen
Troll 
No killmails / killboards no EvE.
Suggestion: make all killmails public in-game like corp history.
I'm my own NPC alt.
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Bethan Le Troix
Krusual Investigation Agency
173
|
Posted - 2015.03.01 09:19:13 -
[47] - Quote
Exotic Matters wrote:I think the statistics on the killboards could be improved to give more meaningful stats.
As it stands a pilot who sits in a 100 man fleet gatecamping will have much better stats than a 2 or 3 man gang who take on battles that require more risk and skill.
I tried to think of ways that amount of damage done or number of final blows/most damage would be tracked but this would discredit the value of tackle and other non-dps warfare that often requires more skill. Other things would require numbers that are not already recorded by the game.
But at the very least it seem like it would be easy to generate a stat that took into account the number of pilots on the kill. So you would have an "adjusted" kill stat where if you were in a 100 man fleet you would get .01 kill and if you were in a 2 man fleet you would get .5 kill.
Or perhaps the isk ratio be based on this. If 100 ships kill a 100 million isk ship, the pilot gets credit for 1 million isk damage. As it stands a 90% isk efficiency is a stat entirely without meaning and can be achieved by the worst pilot in the game if he joins the right fleets. But this stat I suggest would be a much more reliable gauge of the success rate of the pilot.
Maybe other ideas that haven't occurred to me, just seems to me that the numbers are less meaningful than they could be.
Are you referring to the ingame kill windows or third party killboards? The figures on the in-game ones have been broken for a long time if not forever. The loss figures on the in-game figures are always under the average regional market cost for ship & fittings losses. When ships such as the Gnosis are lost the market cost of the ship isn't included at all.
I don't agree that the existence of killboards whether in-game or third party add reluctance for pilots to get involved in PvP. Pilots know how much the ships they fly cost to buy and fit out and will or won't be willing to risk ship loss based on that and other factors.
A lot of pilots like using killboards for many reasons and I would be in favour of having a proper one like Z killboard in-game. Although I would rather see dev worktime used to fix other stuff in--game first or add other new content first before adding an in-game killboard. |
Zappity
Stay Frosty.
A Band Apart.
1791
|
Posted - 2015.03.01 09:39:09 -
[48] - Quote
Killboard needs less meaningless stats. I was told that I was a habitual blobber the other day because 'Average Attackers' = ~80. Me who almost exclusively flies solo with several hundred such kills.
Stupid Titan event.
Although it did turn my killboard green for all eternity. Another utterly meaningless stat in this context.
Zappity's Adventures for a taste of lowsec.
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flakeys
Arkham Innovations
2700
|
Posted - 2015.03.01 09:48:48 -
[49] - Quote
Glathull wrote:flakeys wrote:Glathull wrote:The only way to remove killboards is to remove kills.
Is that really the position some of you are intending to take? Yup , the question is do you want a kill to show off to your friends how awsome you are or do you just want a kill so that your opponent ''suffered a loss''.If it isn't for e-peening then what would a killmail contribute?I've allways done pvp to kick the opponent on the ground , and in a lot of cases he burried me in the ground. Killmails only have a negative impact on pvp. Edit : I just looked at your killboard.I find it quite odd/funny that you with a totally **** killboard stat - total off 95 M kills and 20.8% eff - is opposed to removing killmails while i have a ''more then decent'' killboardstat -total 1.32 T kills 97.5% eff - yet would like to see them removed.It puzzles me why you would be opposed to their removal unless that is not your main character and even then .But then you might be puzzled why i would like them to be removed . You misread my words. I didn't say get rid of killmails. I said the only way to get rid of killboards is to get rid of kills.
Is that what you would like? No more killing? I think that kind of policy would have a much more chilling effect on pvp. (do I need to put this in sarcasm tags for you?) I obviously do not care about my killboard. Read my posts, diphthong. I welp ships for fun. I have a good time fail-fitting ships and going out and losing them whenever I feel like it. I do not care at all about what my kb looks like.
Nope, if you get rid of killmails you get rid of killboards , as simple as that.If a kill does not generate a killmail then you can still do pvp.You just won't be able to show off to your friends about it , or jerk off on your l33t stats.
We are all born ignorant, but one must work hard to remain stupid.
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flakeys
Arkham Innovations
2700
|
Posted - 2015.03.01 09:54:12 -
[50] - Quote
Zappity wrote:Killboard needs less meaningless stats. I was told that I was a habitual blobber the other day because 'Average Attackers' = ~80. Me who almost exclusively flies solo with several hundred such kills.
Stupid Titan event.
Although it did turn my killboard green for all eternity. Another utterly meaningless stat in this context.
As you i am used to flying solo in low-sec mostly in my eve time.That means being killed a lot and the kills i make are never high in isk value , well besides the rare kills of a 500M bomber or 450M faction frigate.But as i have also lived in blob-sec a long while my killboard says i killed 1.32T in ships , for wich you mostly can thank the biggest capfight in eve history.
Hence why i said before that killstats are totally meaningless in regards to how good one is at pvp.Press the solo tab and then you can see who actually has some skills , and even then you can't tell if the person was using an altbooster or not.
We are all born ignorant, but one must work hard to remain stupid.
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Gully Alex Foyle
Black Fox Marauders
Spaceship Bebop
3723
|
Posted - 2015.03.01 10:09:50 -
[51] - Quote
Killboards give a pretty accurate picture of a pilot's or a corp's PVP activity.
You just have to look past the totals.
Also, why should risk-averse cowards be coaxed into fighting more? Let them hide while the adults enjoy the game, there's no place for them on the battlefield.
Make space glamorous!
Is EVE dying or not? Ask the EVE-O Death-o-meter!
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Moonlit Raid
State War Academy
Caldari State
236
|
Posted - 2015.03.01 14:12:32 -
[52] - Quote
Exotic Matters wrote:I think the statistics on the killboards could be improved to give more meaningful stats.
As it stands a pilot who sits in a 100 man fleet gatecamping will have much better stats than a 2 or 3 man gang who take on battles that require more risk and skill.
I tried to think of ways that amount of damage done or number of final blows/most damage would be tracked but this would discredit the value of tackle and other non-dps warfare that often requires more skill. Other things would require numbers that are not already recorded by the game.
But at the very least it seem like it would be easy to generate a stat that took into account the number of pilots on the kill. So you would have an "adjusted" kill stat where if you were in a 100 man fleet you would get .01 kill and if you were in a 2 man fleet you would get .5 kill.
Or perhaps the isk ratio be based on this. If 100 ships kill a 100 million isk ship, the pilot gets credit for 1 million isk damage. As it stands a 90% isk efficiency is a stat entirely without meaning and can be achieved by the worst pilot in the game if he joins the right fleets. But this stat I suggest would be a much more reliable gauge of the success rate of the pilot.
Maybe other ideas that haven't occurred to me, just seems to me that the numbers are less meaningful than they could be.
I don't remember CCP issuing a game wide kill-board? What about the pilots who do not sign up to killboards and therefore their stats are entirely anybody's guess? And logi doesn't show whatsoever leaving a bit of a gap for misleading statistics. You're not concerned with that at all?
If brute force isn't working, you're just not using enough.
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Chopper Rollins
Lantean Empire
1051
|
Posted - 2015.03.01 14:33:41 -
[53] - Quote
WOW some people really do log on to derive some kind of validation, don't they?
The biggest idiots are the ones who either love or hate kb stats.
In the middle are the people who use em for story telling, as conversation fodder, as jokes in themselves but never live according to MUH STATS.
Goggles. Making me look good. Making you look good.
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Agondray
Avenger Mercenaries
VOID Intergalactic Forces
200
|
Posted - 2015.03.01 15:07:27 -
[54] - Quote
Kiandoshia wrote:Get rid of killboards.
agreed, its serves no real purpose than for people to sling their epeen about. its annoying to say the least.
Only purpose it serves is when someone dies you can see what they had on their ship and that's 1 way of getting OP fits, atleast on battleclinic if someone puts a fit together you don't know if its good or not, Killboards you see how many people that pilot killed with that ship before his own death.
"Sarcasm is the Recourse of a weak mind." -Dr. Smith
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2Sonas1Cup
13
|
Posted - 2015.03.01 15:10:36 -
[55] - Quote
Remove killboards API from game. |
Elenahina
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
155
|
Posted - 2015.03.01 15:16:43 -
[56] - Quote
Pok Nibin wrote:risk aversion - uh, until recently we called this "intelligence"
kids these days
Honestly, I think there's a difference between being risk averse and being smart about the fights you do take.
Agony Unleashed is Recruiting - Small Gang PvP in Null Sec
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Varathius
Enlightened Industries
Goonswarm Federation
162
|
Posted - 2015.03.01 17:22:30 -
[57] - Quote
people should be their own killboards, so even the worst eve player has a glorious battle story to tell since nobody can check if that was really possible. Eve would be a different game then and OGBs would become obsolete. |
Seraph Essael
eXceed Inc.
No Holes Barred
1071
|
Posted - 2015.03.01 17:33:04 -
[58] - Quote
I like all these killboard elitists that have, and make a point of mentioning that, they have thousands of kills. When in reality they are always on the kill with 100+ other people and more often than not, they have done 0 damage to the person they 'Killied'. It's also usually their fleet vs a solo player or a smaller fleet. (People that fly in groups of 100+ and fight other groups of 100+ makes sense.)
I've flown with people in the past that literally only care about the killmail, then they will brag about how awesome they are because their KB stats are epic and they're in the top 100 corps etc etc. They would ransom someone and kill them anyway because it generates a kill. Then they would post the kill manually to zKillboard almost immediately because it takes to long for the API to populate.
I like killboards as a record of what fights you've been in and who you've flown with. But for anything more than that, they're rotting this game.
Quoted from Doc Fury: "Concerned citizens: Doc seldom plays EVE on the weekends during spring and summer, so you will always be on your own for a couple days a week. Doc spends that time collecting kittens for the on-going sacrifices, engaging in reckless outdoor activities, and speaking in the 3rd person."
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Daerrol
Furtherance.
38
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Posted - 2015.03.01 17:46:58 -
[59] - Quote
IMO you can tell a good pilot from their killboard but is has 0 to do with their ISK effeciency or # of ships killed. You have to do some data mining ;) (Look at solokills, who did they kill and what was the fit? Look at engagements. Are they fighting other notorious PVPers in similar sized battles and winning/holding their own?)
But at the end of the day, the only way to really know if someone is good is to fly with/against them.
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Lloyd Roses
875
|
Posted - 2015.03.01 18:59:51 -
[60] - Quote
No one is forcing you to put in your API either. Since they're widely used for the free intel they hand out, putting an API up on a public killboard like zkill is questionable in it's use, in my opinion. If you need to show a pvp-reference (for example, your war history as a merc group), then that's even avaiable ingame.
I GÖÑ Sleipnir
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