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Conrad	Posted - 2003.10.30 05:49:00 - [1] This emergency meeting has been called to discuss the miner 2 market price drop. Although it may appear to be a good thing, it leaves peple who have spent months trying to get the bp to end up making a lot less than many have hoped. And worse, those that have worked hard at getting the CU Vapor Bore and Xe Cl mining lasers end up making pennies on the pirate loot that was once worth a fortune. Please, anyone with a Miner 2 BP, come to this meeting on next Tuesday, November 4, at 18:00 GMT time. This is to discuss the future of the miner 2, and pricing. Please attend! Thank you for your time! Oh, and the channel is called: Miner 2 Discussion
nono	Posted - 2003.11.01 23:41:00 - [2] dug from the second last page of the forum. Anyone ever solve this great mystery of current posts going to the bone yard on the second last page before being deleted forever?
John Thomas	Posted - 2003.11.01 23:52:00 - [3] Hmmm... 1 Corp has miner 2 bp... prices are sky high. People complain, CCP adds more bps. Price drops. People complain. Can't really have this both ways. Latest prices I've seen are 750k or so. That's still quite a nice profit margin considering it cost sub-100k to make--but nobody's going to be making billions of isk off 'em anymore. ;) At least it is not easy to get a miner 2 bp, so the influx is somewhat limited.
Carp Riddell	Posted - 2003.11.01 23:54:00 - [4] Edited by: Carp Riddell on 01/11/2003 23:54:46 If I'm not there, invite me. The price will never rise again, but it'll be an interesting discussion. - Carp Riddell - CEO, Innsmouth Shipping - Proud Member of Curse Alliance
PropanElgen	Posted - 2003.11.02 00:39:00 - [5] Quote: Hmmm... 1 Corp has miner 2 bp... prices are sky high. People complain, CCP adds more bps. Price drops. People complain. Can't really have this both ways. Latest prices I've seen are 750k or so. That's still quite a nice profit margin considering it cost sub-100k to make--but nobody's going to be making billions of isk off 'em anymore. ;) At least it is not easy to get a miner 2 bp, so the influx is somewhat limited. I saw them go for 350k (I think it was in Pator). This is great news. All the angels and the puny men of god looked away... Frightened to death by the evil that was born on that day!
Mallus Kulov	Posted - 2003.11.02 00:42:00 - [6] Its dropping like a rock, similar to everything else on the market. Talk about it all you want, it wont change the situation. Proliferation is here to stay.
Fester Addams	Posted - 2003.11.02 01:29:00 - [7] Lets see, monopoly in place, prices very high. Monopoly broken and price rapidly crashing down to roughly 10% above production cost... Sounds fairly normal. So whats the problem? As for being able to keep the prices upp, well the cats out of the bag and this cat wont go back in. I feel sorry for you if you thought you could cash in on the 2.5M in mega deals that Techell did but be asured I feel sorry for you for thinking you could, not for you not being able to do it.
Everfire	Posted - 2003.11.02 01:30:00 - [8] No amount of talking is going to change the situation, you can't control what other ppl will charge for their miner2's now, just deal with it, move on and find some other way to charge ridiculous prices on cheap items...........
Hakera	Posted - 2003.11.02 01:59:00 - [9] My corp own a Miner 2 BP, when one of my corp first got the BP we kept it quiet since it was only a few days after the small corp that got one in the news through agents and we were unsure how other would react to a new seller. Soon after new corps with BP's all over Metropolis and Heimater showed up, so the price drop came, unless every single owner fixed their prices (very doubtful!) something like this wont work, and I doubt the community as a whole would buy if the price started to rise too much again. Sorry I missed the meeting, but that is my thoughts Dumbledore - Eve-I.com
Enraku Reynolt	Posted - 2003.11.02 02:06:00 - [10] need to discuss market prices on EVERYTHING, not just Miner 2s cause the same tank in prices has happened to all, and if this continues, the under cutting is going below manufactering cost we need to set some standerds that allow all to benefit ------------------------------------------------ Do not let the world change you. Change the world Here's everything I know about war: somebody wins, somebody loses, and nothing is ever the sa
Lola	Posted - 2003.11.02 04:56:00 - [11] Quote: dug from the second last page of the forum. Anyone ever solve this great mystery of current posts going to the bone yard on the second last page before being deleted forever? nono, it seems to happen when a post is moved by a forum mod from one section to another. ----------------------------------------- Sig rented by Drethen Nerevitas.
McWatt	Posted - 2003.11.02 06:35:00 - [12] enough money made with m II. prize was supposed to drop finally.
Molly	Posted - 2003.11.02 06:37:00 - [13] Quote: enough money made with m II. prize was supposed to drop finally. Yup. -- Kasha > Mastema, face the reality: All the juicy dots are gone. --
Primer Xenius	Posted - 2003.11.02 06:55:00 - [14] A meeting will not help. Its simple supply and demand. Before, supply was vastly outstripped by demand and hence the nasty prices. Now, with the minmatar agents given out M2 originals after around 250 missions, there is a lot more supply and you guys are undercutting each other. Its only going to get worse as the number of producers keeps increasing. The prices will keep on diving :) "we all know CA planned to attack Xetic "when the time was right" from day1" - Lallante
Zezman	Posted - 2003.11.02 07:59:00 - [15] The market is working perfectly, there are no monopolies on miner 2! NEVER! (»)(») À\Oo/ À=\/= This is Rat. It is a vermin. It has eaten all of Bunny's lettuce.
MrPops	Posted - 2003.11.02 08:17:00 - [16] This is the natural progression of things. As more miner 2 BP's make their way to the market, the price will naturally drop reflecting its true market value. Anyone could have predicted this. "The human species suffers from a dimensional limitation. They are not able to understand that matter and mind are just one aspect of something more fundamental. We must strive to expand our perspective so we can see what our true reality is." Deep toughts by Mr.Pops, while consuming large quantities of Blue Pill and staring at the EVE gate in Genesis.
SwitchBl4d3	Posted - 2003.11.02 09:25:00 - [17] roll on the vampire harvester drone "Teh lord of Nonni"
Enraku Reynolt	Posted - 2003.11.02 10:18:00 - [18] problem is, in this "undercut to sell at any price" we'll kill ourselves off ------------------------------------------------ Do not let the world change you. Change the world Here's everything I know about war: somebody wins, somebody loses, and nothing is ever the sa
Baldour Ngarr	Posted - 2003.11.02 11:10:00 - [19] Quote: need to discuss market prices on EVERYTHING, not just Miner 2s cause the same tank in prices has happened to all, and if this continues, the under cutting is going below manufactering cost we need to set some standerds that allow all to benefit Firstly, you don't need to set standards, and secondly, even if you did, you CAN'T. That's how a market economy works. If the undercutting goes below manufacturing cost, people stop manufacturing them because there's no profit in it; so the supply dries up; so the price goes up; and hey! look! your profit margin is back. Quit worrying. _______ "Soon" is an ancient Icelandic word meaning "some time before the next Ice Age."
Shittake	Posted - 2003.11.02 11:45:00 - [20] WTS Miner II for 2.5mil ISK. Evemail me at My-BP-sucks-Because-Everyone-Now-Has-It How dare you! Price gouging corporations like yours are now whining and complaining when your precious Miner 2s' selling price is so low. I'm crying.
Tassadar Beta	Posted - 2003.11.02 12:01:00 - [21] Quote: Talk about it all you want, it wont change the situation. Proliferation is here to stay. It may be, but we arent talking about ship bps or general ammo bps here. It takes several hundred agent missions to get one or even have a chance at getting one. And while Im not so stupid as to expect the price to hover around 2million isk as that was grossly overpriced as it was. I would like to see a general market stabilisation of prices, constant price drops due to various ppl wanting to make a quick buck by undercutting other ppl does no good to anyone. At one time or another, someone will work hard for a bp of some sort, only to have someone undercut them by such a vast margin, that their profit is either close to 0 or in the red (Blame it on the ppl who need calculators to do math and cant find them). CCP gave us the tools to either kill the market (and make a select few wealthy) or make it a booming success, unfortunately we keep making the same mistakes over and over again. And then expecting CCP to save us. The original prices for miner2s were 2.5 million+, now Im seeing miner2s go for as little as 400k. My corp has a miner2 bp but we can still sell at that price if we have to...sorry ranting a bit here. The market would be alot healthier if people didnt sell originally at extravagent prices and then when an item becomes mass market make it as cheap as chips. The debate may be on miner2s and my arguments may be very wrong when applied to just them. Because well if the current market trend continues throughout eves life, we will have a boom and bust trade that will make everyones gaming a misery.
Wild Rho	Posted - 2003.11.02 14:40:00 - [22] This is a normal process with any new technology. It will take a while until there are plenty of items on the market before the prices stabilise. What some people see as a huge overpricing of them compared to production costs only encourages them to sell alot cheaper and undercut the suppliers themsleves. I have the body of a supermodel. I just can't remember where I left it...
Veruna Caseti	Posted - 2003.11.02 18:26:00 - [23] Edited by: Veruna Caseti on 02/11/2003 18:29:09 Sorry Tassadar, but no matter how well you explain it, you can't make a difference. For some people, 500k ISK now is better than 1.5-2.5M ISK sometime in the future. Problem is people are too impatient; they're afraid that if they sell at the same price as everyone else, that the demand won't be there and they will never actually make a sale. Who knows, maybe they're right - Miners aren't an oft recycled resource so once people buy them once they won't be coming back to the same trough for awhile. I realize it took hundreds of Agent missions to get a Blueprint - but you had other options available. Suddenly that Shield Boost Amplifier doesn't seem so paltry or "worthless" does it? People ***ed when Miner IIs were too rare/expensive. People *ed when only one faction gave out Miner II blueprints because they were so "valuable." People * now that Miner IIs are "not expensive enough." People *** that they worked for a Miner II blueprint and now it's "not valuable enough." See a pattern? Veruna Caseti Ishukone
Veruna Caseti	Posted - 2003.11.02 18:35:00 - [24] Besides, even at 400k they still show a 10x profit, which is better than most items out there. Sorry you can't pull the same crap market tactics as Techell, but this just goes to show what a joke their price was in the first place. Every time someone flames Techell someone else says "an item is worth what people will pay." Well there's another side to that coin - "an item is worth what a manufacturer is willing to charge." 1) It's reasonable profit. 2) This makes it accessible to newer players. 3) Nobody's going to support an entire corporation just on Miner II sales. All good things in my eyes. If you don't like it sell your blueprint. Veruna Caseti Ishukone
Attica	Posted - 2003.11.02 18:58:00 - [25] Well CCP and a few gaming magazines did claim EvE to be extremely realistic....this just goes to further their point. What is happening is very true to RL.
Gurthang	Posted - 2003.11.03 02:38:00 - [26] talking wont fix prices...but if u care enough to blow the hell out of anyone who undercuts you, that might...
Danton Marcellus	Posted - 2003.11.03 03:04:00 - [27] With orders going from 2 weeks to 3 months there's really no need to be worried it won't sell eventually. I price my goods high and they usually sell in the first two weeks but then again I don't have my whole existance based on sales. Impatient sellers is the bad and good thing about the market currently. Convert Stations
Conrad	Posted - 2003.11.03 15:00:00 - [28] This debate is not to drive the price through the roof again, just to make it resonable for the producer and for the buyer. 150k per unit is simply not resonable for the producers. The time invested into getting a miner 2 bp takes a long time, and a lot of busy work. Personally, I didn't like Techell selling miner 2s at 2.5+ mill each, I hope that never happens again. But 150k per miner 2 is the opposite extremem. I hope this will be a fun debate. I hope to see many producers and sellers of rare miner 1s at the meeting as well :) Draaven will be covering the event and posting in the news later that day.
Killgorde	Posted - 2003.11.03 15:23:00 - [29] Traders X, Y & Z agree a cartel price on Miner2's Trader X finds his stock isnt shifting Trader X cuts price Traders Y and Z follow suit and undercut Trader X so their product shifts. Traders A to W suddenly acquire bpc and join the fray... Repeat and rinse until price bottoms out. Welcome to the real world (Apart from the EU where price fixing is illegal unless you are a designer clothing label and have the EC Commissioners in your back pocket). Maybe if Miner 2's took 200 megacyte to make the 2.5 mill mark would be justified with good margin for those who have the initiative to source the production materials more cheaply - and maybe the Devs should look at mineral content before dropping any more "uber" bpc on the market... Killgorde CEO - Cutting Edge Incorporated "I thought I saw a light at the end of the tunnel but it turned out to be some bastard with a torch in one hand and a ****load more work for me in the other"
dalman	Posted - 2003.11.03 16:13:00 - [30] Still WTS Miner 2's for 5M each M.I.A. since 2004-07-30
GlimmerMan	Posted - 2003.11.03 16:58:00 - [31] WTS Miner 2's for 4,999,999M each __________________ - GlimmerMan
2526	Posted - 2003.11.03 17:15:00 - [32] Quote: This debate is not to drive the price through the roof again, just to make it resonable for the producer and for the buyer. 150k per unit is simply not resonable for the producers. The time invested into getting a miner 2 bp takes a long time, and a lot of busy work. Personally, I didn't like Techell selling miner 2s at 2.5+ mill each, I hope that never happens again. But 150k per miner 2 is the opposite extremem. I hope this will be a fun debate. I hope to see many producers and sellers of rare miner 1s at the meeting as well :) Draaven will be covering the event and posting in the news later that day. I think your argument is flawed because whilst doing the 300+ missions you've been compensated already, the BP's are just a BONUS, and shouldn't be the sole reason for doing missions. Also you'll be one of the first to get lvl4 agents who will pay much more and give you much more gameplaying options. The issue should be about how difficult it was to get the BP it should be about what people are willing to pay, and I don't see why it should be any different to other manufacturing processes. Take for example battleship building, its bloody hard work to get the cash to buy a BP for that as well. monopolies are just plain wrong, if person A wants to sell for 150k, when he's also done the same amount of work as you then whats your problem? greed?
Rickenbacker	Posted - 2003.11.03 17:50:00 - [33] Selling something that costs 40k to make for 150k? Sounds perfectly reasonable to me. All I see in the first post is "Waaaahh! We can't make big bucks for nothing anymore!".
dalman	Posted - 2003.11.03 18:12:00 - [34] Quote: Selling something that costs 40k to make for 150k? Sounds perfectly reasonable to me. All I see in the first post is "Waaaahh! We can't make big bucks for nothing anymore!". And how much do you value the time it took to get to 300 missions for a lvl 3 agent? M.I.A. since 2004-07-30
2526	Posted - 2003.11.03 18:22:00 - [35] Quote: And how much do you value the time it took to get to 300 missions for a lvl 3 agent? You've already been paid for those 300+ missions, the BP is just a BONUS.
j0sephine	Posted - 2003.11.03 18:32:00 - [36] "You've already been paid for those 300+ missions, the BP is just a BONUS." ... There's something called "missed opportunity" i think, and which is considered a valid cost. In a nutshell, if you dedicate time to some activity while you could spend the same time doing something else and earn more, the difference between that potential income and what you actually made, is your cost... an investment, if you will. You can make much more money mining or hunting NPCs for the time it takes to run 300 missions... therefore the blueprint and other 'loot' you receive from agents ain't really bonus -- their value should ideally be high enough to make the agent missions over time nearly as profitable as mining/hunting. ... Obviously, with everyone dropping prices of the goods manufactured from those blueprints, the value of the reward drops as well, making the missions less preferable career. (unless you're in it mainly for the agent services, but that's another story)
Harisdrop	Posted - 2003.11.03 18:55:00 - [37] With Tech II and Tech III coming, I dont see an all purpose player anymore. Mining refine manufacture and fighter. Those skills will take forever. By the time you get the skills you want more stuff comes out and and your further behind the specialized player. Pick one objective and be happy. Trade skills and social skills will be here. Alts will become less also with training costs being in months instead of days. Multi box players will see also that thier players are not equal so one will be in 0.0 and the other in .9 soo I dont see the advantage in that. -------------------------- Garsh ma it soo cool killing people in there space thingies
2526	Posted - 2003.11.03 19:16:00 - [38] I kind of agree and disagree with you j0sephine, but your 'missed oportunity' is a risk, and a risk is a risk however you put it. I must say, after seeing all the past item production reduced to 'at cost' sales, its really sort sighted of people to not think this is going to happen again. I think the big mistake was on CCP's part releasing information on where to get the BP's from, this is something the player base should have found out for themselves, that way you wouldn't get a large proportion of players immediately doing missions just for a BP, and the price instantly falling 200% profit is still bloody good, I think how you obtained the BP is largely irrelevant.
Danton Marcellus	Posted - 2003.11.03 19:18:00 - [39] Which is a good thing I guess, by that time the core players would have had ample time to make their decisions on what to specialize in. Myself I never did expect to gain as much money back as I would've made with equal time mining but I also have no need to sell cheap. I'll just stick yet another item on the market and wait. My sell orders should be lagging the server just about now... Convert Stations
Kennian	Posted - 2003.11.03 20:24:00 - [40] just for a little perspective.. Tristan heavy frigite, average price. 155000 isk. construction price 144k isk, profit 11k per unit or under 10% miner 2, current average price 540k, construction cost 48000 isk, profit ONE THOUSAND PERCENT jeasu.. i'd kill for those kind of profit margins ]

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