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Easy solution to an exploit

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M4sterm1nd DarkStar 1 Ascendant Frontier	Posted - 2006.10.14 10:31:00 - [31] Edited by: M4sterm1nd on 14/10/2006 10:31:01 Originally by: Miri Tirzan Well, you really are not very bright. Secure cans only work if they are anchored, DUH! Can you see into the can with a scanner? No. next?
F'nog Amarr Celestial Horizon Corp. Ascendant Frontier	Posted - 2006.10.14 10:46:00 - [32] Edited by: F''nog on 14/10/2006 10:48:05 Originally by: M4sterm1nd Edited by: M4sterm1nd on 14/10/2006 10:31:01 Originally by: Miri Tirzan Well, you really are not very bright. Secure cans only work if they are anchored, DUH! Can you see into the can with a scanner? No. next? Um, YES. PWN'd. Next. Edit - I do not in any way agree with the OP's whine. I just like highlighting stupidity when I see it, even if it's from an Alliance mate. Originally by: DB Preacher The only time BoB's backs are to the wall is when backdoor bandit is in local.
M4sterm1nd DarkStar 1 Ascendant Frontier	Posted - 2006.10.14 11:34:00 - [33] You can see into a can while it's in a ship? Thats actually news to me, thanks for the heads up, mate.
Evil RedEye Minmatar Maquis Drakonic	Posted - 2006.10.14 11:46:00 - [34] -sigh- not another thread.... Okay, this is NOT an exploit, why?! Because the person who suicides looses his ship which follows game mechanics. Concord warp in, concord kill you. It really is that simple. Dont want to loose your ship? Get a transport ship and tank it up. They're not particularly easy to suicide when tanked up, or as suggested load your stuff into containers unless things have changed, afaik scanners do NOT show what's in them. Also Risk/Gain factor isn't aslways perfect. I've seen almost 2bill isk worth of morphite blow up in my face. Destroyed items: Morphite, Qty: 86047 (Cargo) But what was carrying it!? Victim: *********** Alliance: None Corp: ******** Destroyed: Badger System: Kisogo Security: 1.0 You also miss the point that once I have UNLAWFULLY killed you via suiciding you will have killrights on me for the next 30days when you can hunt me down kill me etc And finally, There is supposed to be a penalty for killing someone in empire... wait, kill rights, loss of ship and lowered security status ISNT a penalty!?...
Nikla Uthaan	Posted - 2006.10.14 11:51:00 - [35] One tactic i enjoy? Flying expensive loot such as implants, BPs etc in a Condor. What numptee would scan condors instead of cargo ships? One word,, emo,,,
Stephar The High Priest	Posted - 2006.10.14 12:07:00 - [36] I think there's definitely a problem with high security ganking. Get 4 trial accounts, train up for Caracals, pick a gate in high security to camp. Pop anything that is profitable. Considering that the cost of losing 4 caracals + fittings after insurance is like, 10 million(?), and assuming that half of the cargo is destroyed, you'll basically profit on any target with a cargohold value of over 20 million ISK. That's kinda low. Add in the fact that these characters aren't even PAYING for a subscription, and they are griefing actual subscribers... I'm not seeing how this is good for the game. I'd have less of a problem with high security ganking if it was only done by veteran pilots who could be hunted down at a later date. But as it stands, the gankers are often disposable non-paying accounts who disappear from the game after the trial period expires.
Beringe Raptus Regaliter	Posted - 2006.10.14 12:09:00 - [37] CCP implemented kill rights to try and help fix stupidity. It did, but not in the way the whiners thought it would. ------------------------------------------- "Never underestimate the power of language." --Daitan Beringe, honorary director in charge of bottles--
Alski Gallente Di-Tron Heavy Industries	Posted - 2006.10.14 12:31:00 - [38] I'm on the fence as to weather I consider suicide ganking to be…. “acceptable” to some degree, although given I’ve considered doing it with my alt (a mainey kind of alt, not a disposable one) so I guess that puts me in the “its ok” dept. However one argument that’s being made here is that the risk and reward fallacycough I mean risk and reward ‘system’ is still intact because they lose there ship and security status. This is completely wrong. Seriously trying to convince anyone that, for example 500 million isk of minerals, or a T2 BPO, or many decent T1 BPOS…. Or indeed Anything that would be worth doing this for is in any way equal to a ship, a ship which btw is OBVIOUSLEY going to be worth less than the cargo of the ship it is targeting, or equal to a little sec hit which might force you to rat 0.0 for a week which is of course profitable in itself, is just nonsense and quite frankly insulting the intelligence of most of the people here. Maybe it is ok to do this, but the penalty does not anywhere nearly fit the crime, and before anyone starts whining “but its not supposed to be fair”, stuff like logon traps, or copying BM’s to create lag isent fair either, at what point does bending the game mechanics for profit become an exploit exactly? Mabey just maybe there should be harsher penaltys for doing this, or other ways to guard against it besides skilling for an entire MONTH to fly a T2 hauler, for what may be a one time move. --- (.)(.) These are boobs. No need to copy and paste them into your sig, they have already gained world domination. Sorry Bunny.
Lillith Argent State War Academy	Posted - 2006.10.14 12:52:00 - [39] It's acceptable for just as long as macrominers are. /wave OP.
M4sterm1nd DarkStar 1 Ascendant Frontier	Posted - 2006.10.14 13:10:00 - [40] Originally by: Nikla Uthaan One tactic i enjoy? Flying expensive loot such as implants, BPs etc in a Condor. What numptee would scan condors instead of cargo ships? OMG! Kewl! I use Ibises to move my BPOs

madaluap Gallente Mercenary Forces	Posted - 2006.10.14 13:38:00 - [41] You know this is partly the reason i got a alt after 2 years. Save transport is worth a lot, so thats why my alt is training into transport ships. Just freacking adapt. If i was a industrial char i would have had transport ships trained a looooong time ago. _________________________________________________
madaluap Gallente Mercenary Forces	Posted - 2006.10.14 13:39:00 - [42] Originally by: Evil RedEye Destroyed items: Morphite, Qty: 86047 (Cargo) But what was carrying it!? Victim: *********** Alliance: None Corp: ******** Destroyed: Badger System: Kisogo Security: 1.0 OMFG there is money to be made!! _________________________________________________
thatguyinpc	Posted - 2006.10.14 21:59:00 - [43] Hi gang, First off, neither containers nor escrow/courier packaging blocks the scanner. If CCP will add a cheap high slot mod with low fitting requirements that block scanners then the majority of this problem will go away. Guy
Yggdrassil Amarrian Missionaires	Posted - 2006.10.14 22:14:00 - [44] Originally by: Miri Tirzan stuff 1. You cannot use trial accounts for fighting in high sec empire space. more stuff Quoted for truth. Getting a char with enough damage to insta-pop haulers in a trial account, with a few friends assisting is too easy, and has ZERO downsides as the trial account will be gone after the timeout/all 3 char got -5.1 security standing, whatever comes first. Yggdrassil
Vors	Posted - 2006.10.14 22:39:00 - [45] Thank you, finally some intelligent responces. But many people still just don't get it. The suicide gankers are still gaining far more than they lose. (If you call them really losing anything) It's not whining if you have a solution to the problem: 1. Cargo scanners become an act of aggression. I do not understand why this is not a duh thing, what possible reason would ANYONE have to scan your cargo unless they are planning to kill you? It is standard military policy that anyone who lights you up with targetting radar is hostile and will be killed. Oh, darn, let's not bring anything resembling reality in here. 2. Make Cargo Scan a long enough delay so they die from concord. You can still have these pathetic lil suicide gankers do their thing, just now they would actually share the same risk as the rest of us since they would not know what the cargo is. (Oh, and the little stuff I lost WAS in secure cans, I found out later scanners go right through em) So much for precautions. The suggestion for carrying stuff in a Freighter are so terribly helpful, thanks.
Pestillence Chav-Scum	Posted - 2006.10.14 22:41:00 - [46] Originally by: Vors Oh, darn, let's not bring anything resembling reality in here. It's a game where we fly around in eggs with tubes up our arses. If I want reality I'll go outside.
thatguyinpc	Posted - 2006.10.15 02:21:00 - [47] Edited by: thatguyinpc on 15/10/2006 02:22:56 Vors, If we were to implement your idea the logical conclusion for the pirates would be to merely have one of their members (read: alts) scan you from a velator (starter ship). Then gank as normal. IÆve spent a lot of time thinking about this problem (despite the fact that I havenÆt been a victim yet). Everyone (but the pirates themselves) agree that disposable alts are a problem. However, the very nature of a disposable alt makes it to hard for the players or CCP to track and ban. Restricting new players (in an effort to stop alts) would seem to be a solution that CCP doesnÆt want to pursue, as itÆs a great way to introduce new players to the game. It also would do nothing to restrict this very lucrative business for vets. Restricting PVP in High Sec is never gonna happen, nuff said. So, I come back to my earlier idea. Introduce a high slot mod that blocks scanning. ItÆs in the best tradition of EVE in that every tactic has a counter, for other examples consider ECM vs ECCM & Warp Core Scramblers vs Warp Core Stabilizers DoesnÆt prevent suicide gankers from conducting business if they so choose. DoesnÆt prevent anyone from getting revenge in high sec if they so choose. Does allow new players to enjoy the same level of game play they currently have. Puts the risk back into the risk/reward ratio for pirates/suicide gankers. It doesnÆt give an I-win button to haulers or anyone else for that matter, the are just as vulnerable as ever, only now pirates have to gamble on whether or not they are a worthwhile target. (Makes a spies job all the more important). Think it through, the implementation of this single mod would largely make this problem go away. Guy
Malicious Wraith The Dark Side of the Moon	Posted - 2006.10.15 03:14:00 - [48] Scanner's should not be hostile... its not a hostile offense... concord guys use passive targetters and scan you for drugs. ----------------------------------------
DeODokktor Caldari Dark Templars The Fonz Presidium	Posted - 2006.10.15 04:23:00 - [49] Edited by: DeODokktor on 15/10/2006 04:24:34 ccp just need to remove insurance on concord kill they say they want because "mistakes happen" but most of those "mistakes" get petiton'd and who knows how many of those get refunded (gank's dont get refunded) concord kill = no insurance and Sentry guns sensor jam ;)
Reckless Eddie	Posted - 2006.10.15 05:02:00 - [50] Originally by: Vors 1. Cargo scanners become an act of aggression. I do not understand why this is not a duh thing, what possible reason would ANYONE have to scan your cargo unless they are planning to kill you? It is standard military policy that anyone who lights you up with targetting radar is hostile and will be killed. Oh, darn, let's not bring anything resembling reality in here. this is a bad idea because many people gang with others who will haul their mission loot for them they sometimes fit scanners so that they can keep the hauler honest it's bad enough that people can't share loot through cans any more because of the paranoia around can flagging more mod nerfs are not the answer nerf insurance for criminal actions resulting in ship death watched you cry, watched you fly, watched you die

Caleb Paine ISS Navy Task Force	Posted - 2006.10.15 05:24:00 - [51] How about walking through New York at day time with a couple of $100 bills hanging half from your pockets, all alone. Guess what happens... There IS a way to make your cargo unscannable, there IS a way to make your ship survive an alpha strike and there IS a way to have a scout ahead to check for trouble. I don't see the problem really, you refused to put in effort, you refused to even think for a second about how you could secure your valuable cargo, therefore you chose to be blown up. -------------------------------- Death smiles at us all, all a man can do is smile back
thatguyinpc	Posted - 2006.10.15 08:52:00 - [52] Originally by: Caleb Paine There IS a way to make your cargo unscannable, there IS a way to make your ship survive an alpha strike and there IS a way to have a scout ahead to check for trouble. I don't see the problem really, you refused to put in effort, you refused to even think for a second about how you could secure your valuable cargo, therefore you chose to be blown up. How do you make your cargo unscannable? Guy
M4sterm1nd DarkStar 1 Ascendant Frontier	Posted - 2006.10.15 11:44:00 - [53] Okay, can anyone get a final word on this? Can someone otherwise just get out there and test a few things? 1. Can you scan a cargo can in space? [ ] YES [ ] NO 2. Can you scan a secure can in space? unanchored, no password..........[ ] YES [ ] NO anchored, no password..............[ ] YES [ ] NO unanchored, with password........[ ] YES [ ] NO anchored, with password............[ ] YES [ ] NO 3. Can u scan a cargo can in a ship? [ ] YES [ ] NO 4. Can you scan a secure can in a ship? with password...........................[ ] YES [ ] NO without password.......................[ ] YES [ ] NO 5. If you load a secure can into your cargo hold and password it, does it stay passworded if you eject it to save it from your ship's destruction? [ ] YES [ ] NO tyvm
Xenofur Di-Tron Heavy Industries	Posted - 2006.10.15 12:35:00 - [54] 1. Can you scan a cargo can in space? [X] YES [ ] NO 2. Can you scan a secure can in space? unanchored, no password..........[X] YES [ ] NO anchored, no password..............[X] YES [ ] NO unanchored, with password........[X] YES [ ] NO anchored, with password............[X] YES [ ] NO 3. Can u scan a cargo can in a ship? [X] YES [ ] NO 4. Can you scan a secure can in a ship? with password...........................[X] YES [ ] NO without password.......................[X] YES [ ] NO 5. If you load a secure can into your cargo hold and password it, does it stay passworded if you eject it to save it from your ship's destruction? [ ] YES [X] NO Addendum: I use a Small secure Audit-Log Container for testing. There is a way to make yourself unscannable. It requires the use of something that borders on lagsploit: Put a few hundred BMs into a small can and carry that around too.
Venkul Mul Gallente	Posted - 2006.10.15 12:46:00 - [55] Originally by: Evil RedEye -sigh- not another thread.... Okay, this is NOT an exploit, why?! Because the person who suicides looses his ship which follows game mechanics. Concord warp in, concord kill you. It really is that simple. Dont want to loose your ship? Get a transport ship and tank it up. They're not particularly easy to suicide when tanked up, or as suggested load your stuff into containers unless things have changed, afaik scanners do NOT show what's in them. Also Risk/Gain factor isn't aslways perfect. I've seen almost 2bill isk worth of morphite blow up in my face. Destroyed items: Morphite, Qty: 86047 (Cargo) But what was carrying it!? Victim: *********** Alliance: None Corp: ******** Destroyed: Badger System: Kisogo Security: 1.0 You also miss the point that once I have UNLAWFULLY killed you via suiciding you will have killrights on me for the next 30days when you can hunt me down kill me etc And finally, There is supposed to be a penalty for killing someone in empire... wait, kill rights, loss of ship and lowered security status ISNT a penalty!?... All the above is valid only if you do it with your main. If that is true my hat to you, but most of those doing it use disposable alt, then the effect is zero (remember the insurance).
Argenton Sayvers	Posted - 2006.10.15 12:48:00 - [56] Edited by: Argenton Sayvers on 15/10/2006 12:54:01 Ban people who define exploit as "something i dont like". Problem solved. Your "arguments" are a mockery to facts, logic and reason. Better researched ones have been refuted a thousand times. The problem is that some people believe that hauling expensive items - or even hauling in general - should just be a mindless afk timesink instead of an adventure. Originally by: Venkul Mul All the above is valid only if you do it with your main. If that is true my hat to you, but most of those doing it use disposable alt, then the effect is zero (remember the insurance). I have 21 mains spread over 7 accounts. Alts are a totall different topic that affects EVERY aspect of eve. And alts are here to stay. And the fun part? You cannot even suicide anyone unless you spend skill points. Guess what, i have "lab rats", meaning an account where all 3 slots are filled with characters that have trained the research skills. So thats an exploit as well? Please stop this "disposable" nonsense. If you actually get ganked by a truely disposable alt (on a trial account), you deserve to be named and shamed.
Saffin	Posted - 2006.10.15 12:56:00 - [57] Originally by: Xenofur 1. Can you scan a cargo can in space? [X] YES [ ] NO 2. Can you scan a secure can in space? unanchored, no password..........[X] YES [ ] NO anchored, no password..............[X] YES [ ] NO unanchored, with password........[X] YES [ ] NO anchored, with password............[X] YES [ ] NO 3. Can u scan a cargo can in a ship? [X] YES [ ] NO 4. Can you scan a secure can in a ship? with password...........................[X] YES [ ] NO without password.......................[X] YES [ ] NO 5. If you load a secure can into your cargo hold and password it, does it stay passworded if you eject it to save it from your ship's destruction? [ ] YES [X] NO Addendum: I use a Small secure Audit-Log Container for testing. There is a way to make yourself unscannable. It requires the use of something that borders on lagsploit: Put a few hundred BMs into a small can and carry that around too. I haven't tried this but i have heard that escrow packages are un scannable. So if you put stuff on escrow for 1 day to a person and they dont claim it is returned to you in a escrow package. Then transport the escrow package. As for this being a expliot i have heard this MANY times before, mostly from newer players because they think secure space is supposed to be safe. It isn't concord are not police they do not stop crime they just enact retribution. You can do what you want to anyone (without consent) in secure space, however the price you MUST pay is your ship. Saf
Xenofur Di-Tron Heavy Industries	Posted - 2006.10.15 13:12:00 - [58] argenton, we're talking about throwaway trial alts, not fulltime running paid alts. ;)

Eldo Davip Forum Moderator Interstellar Services Department	Posted - 2006.10.15 13:29:00 - [59] Vors: Here's a tip, when your post content is really large, its useful to break up the post into chunks so people can easily reply and contribute to the thread. Without doing that some people will just start unneccesarily flaming and trolling. When there's too much of flaming and trolling we will lock a thread. Due to that your voice/opinion will get lost, and you dont want that to happen do ya? I'm not the grammer police, but I'm trying to make my job easier and your point heard. Anyways, here's a simple example of how your post would look formatted. __ There are many people unhappy over the fact that some people are using suicide gankers in high sec. (A cheap fitted BS and frigate with scanner killing haulers before concorded) Now this is an exploit for several reasons: 1. To gain is to risk in EVE. EVERY form of serious moneymaking in EVE involves risk or is very time consuming, be it mining in low sec or doing missions, there is NOT supposed to be a way to make large amounts of money quick and easy. These guys KNOW they will lose the BS and don't care, because they are gaining more than they lose. I've heard of 500+ million cargoes lost to this. 2. EVERY form of pvp in EVE gives you a chance. If you are in low sec, you KNOW you are risking yourself, so getting jumped is fine. Going to war, you KNOW there are war targets, and you can avoid them. This exploit gives you NO chance, you can be popped ANYWHERE ANYTIME by ANYONE with no warning. That is ridiculous. 3. Even after you are popped and lose your valuable cargo, the ones who popped you are in an npc corp, so there is nothing you can do back to them, so they get away free. That to is total bull. Even in war, you can strike back. Pirates in .4 or less in npc corps are one thing, you can avoid em or are warned, but in a system with 100+ people, where anyone can pop you with impunity, THAT is an exploit. Now, just so I'm not your typical whiner I can offer a solution that is simple and involves minimum effort to do without changing the game much: 1. Make using a cargo scanner a Concordable offense. I do not see why it isn't already, it's obviously a hostile act. 2. Make a cargo scanner have a delay that is long enough for Concord to kill the user. There. Simple, and you can STILL attack people in empire, just this way, you don't automaticly get far more than you lose, the element of risk is back as it should be. To those who say use a shuttle for bpos, or a BS, I ask, why the hell should I be inconvenienced because of losers who abuse the rules? It DOES NOT matter how I carry my stuff in empire, what matters is that this act is wrong and against the spirit of the rules. There is supposed to be a penalty for killing someone in empire. PERIOD! ___ Email Us (Report a bad post) \| Forum Rules - Read 'em! \| Website

Evil RedEye Minmatar Maquis Drakonic	Posted - 2006.10.15 13:30:00 - [60] Originally by: Venkul Mul Originally by: Evil RedEye -sigh- not another thread.... Okay, this is NOT an exploit, why?! Because the person who suicides looses his ship which follows game mechanics. Concord warp in, concord kill you. It really is that simple. Dont want to loose your ship? Get a transport ship and tank it up. They're not particularly easy to suicide when tanked up, or as suggested load your stuff into containers unless things have changed, afaik scanners do NOT show what's in them. Also Risk/Gain factor isn't aslways perfect. I've seen almost 2bill isk worth of morphite blow up in my face. Destroyed items: Morphite, Qty: 86047 (Cargo) But what was carrying it!? Victim: *********** Alliance: None Corp: ******** Destroyed: Badger System: Kisogo Security: 1.0 You also miss the point that once I have UNLAWFULLY killed you via suiciding you will have killrights on me for the next 30days when you can hunt me down kill me etc And finally, There is supposed to be a penalty for killing someone in empire... wait, kill rights, loss of ship and lowered security status ISNT a penalty!?... All the above is valid only if you do it with your main. If that is true my hat to you, but most of those doing it use disposable alt, then the effect is zero (remember the insurance). Yup always use my main, but using disposable alt/trial accounts needs to be stopped if people really are using them =(



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