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Covert ops cynos in highsec

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Arden Elenduil Laurus Manus Concordia Incorporated II 327	Posted - 2015.03.03 23:51:44 - [1] - Quote With the "recent" changes to jump capable ships, I figured it's a good time to revisit this particular suggestion. My proposition is to simply allow people to light, and jump/bridge to, covert cynos in highsec. This would enable a wealth of new tactical options for combat in highsec and give black ops ships a rather significant boost to their possible areas of operation. It's a relatively easy change to implement, and it makes sense in the lore as well (the reason why capital ships can't enter highsec systems is because they're cynojammed. In nullsec, cynojammers do not prevent covops cynos from being lit, which is a particular strength of them. It would also fit in rather well with the current storyline that the capsuleers are gaining in power over the empires. This would be one way that we could "circumvent" the policies of the empires. Naturally, jumping to covert cynos in highsec wouldn't be without consequences. Especially not with the neutral alts that are all over the place. There are already some significant drawbacks involved in blopsing. Namely the requirement for both a Cyno V character (easy enough to have), and more importantly, a Black ops (and bridging capable) character with preferably JDC V (which is NOT easy to have). On top of that, a significant investment of isk (varies) and the proper organization to properly execute black ops maneuvers. This however, is not enough. Some additional rules have to be established. Mainly that every single ship involved in Black Ops operations in highsec will automatically be assigned a suspect flag. This goes for the ship lighting the cyno, the ships bridging, being bridged and jumping. Every single one. Furthermore, I'm halfway partial to having a ship fitted with a covops cyno in highsec that is online be flagged as suspect as default setting. Just to give targets a bit of a heads up about what's going to happen if they stick around. (to prevent too big of an advantage to using neutral alts, even though they'll only be useful against a target once if they're clever). Possible worries (these are arguments against that I've heard before in the past) This change makes transportation too easy. It might've been that way, but jump fatigue and the range jumps handily take care of that problem. It's very likely to be faster to simply use a blockade runner and transport goods that way, unless they're contraband, in which case using blops in highsec will finally give you a way to circumvent the customs scans (it'll still be slower than regular transportation). Our mining ops might get hotdropped without warning during a war now. The suspect flag on the cynoship will give you a heads up, furthermore, you can take steps to protect yourself. And it's not like cynos are "THAT" instantaneous) (on a side note, what are you doing mining during a war...) You could easily bridge highsec to highsec to avoid lowsec between islands and main highsec. Blockade runners have very limited cargo capacity compared to Jump Freighters, some types of goods can't even be carried because their holds are too small. Furthermore, Blockade runners should never even die when traversing lowsec via gates, barring some freak happestance. Thoughts?
Kestral Anneto Umbra-Domini SpaceMonkey's Alliance 56	Posted - 2015.03.04 00:17:19 - [2] - Quote +1 from me, although i don't think that they should get a suspect flag, but i'll take what i can get.
Arya Regnar Darwins Right Hand 680	Posted - 2015.03.04 00:30:13 - [3] - Quote I like the idea of it being done right but if CCP do it they will just catter to carebears and make highsec even safe to traverse for high value goods and to avoid wardecs. +1 to combat -1 to combat avoidance -9001 to ccp messing everything up EvE-Mail me if you need anything.
Lugh Crow-Slave 841	Posted - 2015.03.04 01:53:55 - [4] - Quote -1 suspect flag or not this would give far to big of an advantage to war dec corps against new players who already have very few options. currently a player who has been wardeced and is paying attention can warp to a station so long as they are more than 3 AU away in something smaller than a battle ship and starts the warp once they see the star in local. with this change they now can do almost nothing if someone so much as shows up with a suspect flag and if they can swap to a cov cyno from a mobile depot just off grid they won't have much chance at all. a cyno isn't instant no, but it is far faster then the align time of most ships Fuel block colors? Missiles for Caldari T3?
Donnachadh United Allegiance of Undesirables 177	Posted - 2015.03.04 02:36:23 - [5] - Quote I only need the affects of this on newer players as pointed out by Lugh Crow-Slave ito give this one a -1. If you want to use your covert cyno's to hot drop people that is what the nul and low sec regions of space are for, go forth and have fun. If you think high sec is to safe then get out and make it less safe using the reasonably well balanced set of tools that are already in the game. There are hundreds of valid reasons why cyno's and cap ship are not allowed in high sec and it needs to stay that way. So just in case you may have missed it earlier. -1 to another really bad idea on how to change high sec.
Arden Elenduil Laurus Manus Concordia Incorporated II 334	Posted - 2015.03.04 02:47:23 - [6] - Quote To reply to your posts. While I agree that it's something that warrants concern due to the "instant" nature of cynos. I feel that the danger is quite overrated. If a player flies intelligently during a war, one could even remove local and be perfectly safe. One simple reason for this, aligning. Mining or running missions while aligned is very much possible (just swap between different celestials/stations as needed) and the second something, anything hits grid, you're out. People could of course compensate by trying to use a suicide alt to tackle, but then we start going into hypothetical areas, and it still wouldn't help if you warped out straight away at the slightest whiff of anyone in a belt (or when mining in a mission). And cynos can't even be lit inside missions. Or at least not accelleration pockets. So you'd still be quite safe there.
Matsudaira Takuma Dutch East Querious Company Phoebe Freeport Republic 8	Posted - 2015.03.04 02:53:21 - [7] - Quote This isn't actually a bad idea at all. My trading and hauling industry revolves mostly around high value, low volume goods. At the moment I am having to use a completely brick tanked Tengu which I've pumped a lot of isk into. With cov ops cynos I could potentially load up a blockade runner and transport the goods in a far safer way whilst also managing to avoid the obvious and very dangerous pipe systems. While I am effectively already at the end game, ship wise, for my trade. New players would be able to set this up far faster and with less capital than I needed and could finally give me a bit of competition. I'm going to +1 this.
Lugh Crow-Slave 841	Posted - 2015.03.04 03:01:33 - [8] - Quote Arden Elenduil wrote: To reply to your posts. While I agree that it's something that warrants concern due to the "instant" nature of cynos. I feel that the danger is quite overrated. If a player flies intelligently during a war, one could even remove local and be perfectly safe. One simple reason for this, aligning. Mining or running missions while aligned is very much possible (just swap between different celestials/stations as needed) and the second something, anything hits grid, you're out. People could of course compensate by trying to use a suicide alt to tackle, but then we start going into hypothetical areas, and it still wouldn't help if you warped out straight away at the slightest whiff of anyone in a belt (or when mining in a mission). And cynos can't even be lit inside missions. Or at least not accelleration pockets. So you'd still be quite safe there. but we aren't talking about the effect this would have in a game where we all know what we are doing we are talking about wardecs against small to med corps full of players who have been playing less than a year Fuel block colors? Missiles for Caldari T3?
Arden Elenduil Laurus Manus Concordia Incorporated II 334	Posted - 2015.03.04 03:10:16 - [9] - Quote Well, if we're talking along the same lines of thought, then the same argument you make could be made about duels (depending on age of the player), wars in general, awoxes (for as far as they still exist) and suicide ganking. Compared to these things, covops drops would actually be rather rare because of the entry level in terms of skill and isk required. It wouldn't be that common to start with.
Jenshae Chiroptera The Volition Cult 1042	Posted - 2015.03.04 05:06:58 - [10] - Quote Too many neutrals. CSM Ten movement for change. CCP - Building ant hills and magnifying glasses for fat kids. Status: Rabid carebear Blog

Lugh Crow-Slave 841	Posted - 2015.03.04 05:31:49 - [11] - Quote Arden Elenduil wrote: Well, if we're talking along the same lines of thought, then the same argument you make could be made about duels (depending on age of the player), wars in general, awoxes (for as far as they still exist) and suicide ganking. Compared to these things, covops drops would actually be rather rare because of the entry level in terms of skill and isk required. It wouldn't be that common to start with. except awoxers have been nerfed to a point that they can't do much to the average player in HS duels can be ignored and even week old players can learn to understand the emblem of a war target and dock up when that appears in local. and the "barrier to entry" you have is only about three moths for a bridge capable blops so it's not very high. if you had to be in the same corp to light the cyno then I would not see much of a problem but adding this limitation would poorly affect game play outside of HS and making to a rule that only applies to HS would just get confusing Fuel block colors? Missiles for Caldari T3?
Don Purple Snuggle Society Snuggle Society. 1125	Posted - 2015.03.04 06:50:53 - [12] - Quote I support this idea, the danger to new pilots is pretty low compared to say a cloaky warp in and an interceptor. The arguements agaisnt new players safety is paltry. Who says this doesnt help new players? This would give corps the ability to fight back in a hit and run manner. It does not take long to train into a stealth bomber, and with one capable player a group of low sp guys could fight back in an interesting way. The idea of covops and stealth bombers is usually looked forward to by new players as well. This could be content to keep them interested. I am just here to snuggle.
Daichi Yamato Xero Security and Technologies 2306	Posted - 2015.03.04 08:45:35 - [13] - Quote Liked this in the past, still like it now. 1. You have to be using a ship that can light a covert cyno. These arent the tankiest ships in the game (except OP T3). Go suspect and sit still with a target on their head. 2. You can only jump in with ships that can use a covert cloak. Again, these are not the hardiest of ships in the game. (except OP T3) 3. Its little different than baiting with a drake whilst the vindi/guardian fleet waits one jump out. The main difference being that the types of ships you can use are restricted. (TLDR: nerf OP T3) It doesnt make the war dec system any noob-stompier than it already is. If you wanna stomp noobs, the current system enables that quite well already. EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided" "So it will be up to a pilot to remain vigilant wherever they may be flying and be ready for anything at any time"
Rivr Luzade Coreli Corporation The Kadeshi 1277	Posted - 2015.03.04 09:12:33 - [14] - Quote Arden Elenduil wrote: Thoughts? No. Cynos. In. High sec. Daichi Yamato wrote: 1. You have to be using a ship that can light a covert cyno. These arent the tankiest ships in the game (except OP T3). Go suspect and sit still with a target on their head. 2. You can only jump in with ships that can use a covert cloak. Again, these are not the hardiest of ships in the game. (except OP T3) 3. Its little different than baiting with a drake whilst the vindi/guardian fleet waits one jump out. The main difference being that the types of ships you can use are restricted. You call a Stratios not OP? It has easily more tank, more damage and more utility than any Covert T3. Bombers insta you every sub-cap ship in the game if there are enough of them and they are tanky enough to withstand a lot of damage if flown correctly. Furthermore, you can just have the Covert Cyno offline for travel to avoid the suspect flag and online it quickly once at the target. This is all nice and dandy in Low/Null sec, but High sec ought not to have things that define Low/Null sec. Station Tab :: UI Improvement Collective
Samillian Angry Mustellid The Periphery 725	Posted - 2015.03.04 09:19:41 - [15] - Quote If you want to play with the nice toys move to the right space for them. NBSI shall be the whole of the Law
Arden Elenduil Laurus Manus Concordia Incorporated II 337	Posted - 2015.03.04 11:37:10 - [16] - Quote Rivr Luzade wrote: Arden Elenduil wrote: Thoughts? No. Cynos. In. High sec. You call a Stratios not OP? It has easily more tank, more damage and more utility than any Covert T3. Bombers insta you every sub-cap ship in the game if there are enough of them and they are tanky enough to withstand a lot of damage if flown correctly. And another one: Risk-free travel in space to skip Low sec entirely? If you have to cross Low sec to get to an island, it is meant to be a little bit dangerous. You have to bridge into the adjacent Low sec and potentially intercepted with a smartbomber on the High sec gate (Hello Rancer, Hello Hagilur, Hello Amamake, and so on). If you can just skip these contact points, you allow completely risk-free travel through space. Suspect flags mean nothing to you as you can just wait them out or ignore them completely as nearly no player will lock and shoot you anyways, especially not in areas with lower population density or lower gate-traffic a bit off the beaten paths. This is all nice and dandy in Low/Null sec, but High sec ought not to have things that define Low/Null sec. Well, I did mention that it's already easy enough to avoid those systems. Properly flown you should never die to a smartbomber (I always bounce between celestials even in lowsec if the other gate isn't on dscan). Furthermore, don't jump freighters already avoid it completely of flow properly, with a lot more cargo space to their name? Sure, they have to cyno into lowsec, but anyone knows that in all normal circumstances a jump freighter should never, ever die. You cyno in on station and warp directly to the gate. As for the stratios, yes, they're quite strong, this is true. But you can't just judge a system based on 1 part. You need to take everything into account. You not only need the stratioses, but you also need at least 1 black ops ship, 1 cyno ship, fuel (which ain't cheap) on top of your regular amount of ships. Oh, and bombers, they do volley other ships, just the same as every other ship does in sufficient quantities. That quote does make me wonder if you've got extensive experience flying bombers in any case. Torps are known to have terrible damage application on anything smaller than a battlecruiser.
Staigor Umbra-Domini SpaceMonkey's Alliance 0	Posted - 2015.03.04 18:15:35 - [17] - Quote I couldn't agree with this more. It's not like we can use bombs in high sec, so its not really going to affect that, and we can't bring in any capitals, so that's fine too.
Phelane Wolfe Umbra-Domini SpaceMonkey's Alliance 0	Posted - 2015.03.04 18:17:24 - [18] - Quote +1 from me!!
Anhenka The Cult of Personality DARKNESS. 1172	Posted - 2015.03.04 18:26:56 - [19] - Quote -1. While a competent players would not find avoiding this too much of a problem, it would primarily be used to surprise kill people the newer, younger, less knowledgable players that define highsec. If you were restricted in highsec to only bridging to a cyno lit by a member of your corp (and thus a char that would also be in the wardec), then maybe. But staying alert and aligned at all times to avoid surprise cynos lit by neutrals would be an excessive bar for demanding vigilance. Even in null and low and WH space it's possible to pick out the people who are there to kill you (and have freedom to do so without consequences). It's called "anyone not blue". I'd rather not see the next wave of newbies be griefed out of the game by getting constantly dropped on through a method they don't understand and can't predict before they even manage to muster up the courage to leave highsec.
Rivr Luzade Coreli Corporation The Kadeshi 1277	Posted - 2015.03.04 18:36:37 - [20] - Quote Arden Elenduil wrote: [As for the stratios, yes, they're quite strong, this is true. But you can't just judge a system based on 1 part. You need to take everything into account. You not only need the stratioses, but you also need at least 1 black ops ship, 1 cyno ship, fuel (which ain't cheap) on top of your regular amount of ships. Oh, and bombers, they do volley other ships, just the same as every other ship does in sufficient quantities. That quote does make me wonder if you've got extensive experience flying bombers in any case. Torps are known to have terrible damage application on anything smaller than a battlecruiser. We already have taken 4 parts of the Covert gameplay into account: Cloaky T3 are too powerful, Stratios/Astero are too powerful, Bombers are too powerful, Bridging cloaky haulers from system to system without Low sec danger potential is too powerful. What's left? Cover Ops frigates. I also recommend to check my killboard first before you question my Bomber experience (Fortunately, you have to do that on your own as we are not allowed to link killmails in this forum. Just a hint, go back to the time from Oct 2013 to Dec 2013). Quite in contrast, I can question your experience with bombers after your statement that torp damage application is terrible on smaller ships. You clearly do not take the huge Ewar utility of bombers into account. Your justification that any ship in sufficient numbers can alpha a target is also a very questionable straw man argument as these ships cannot be bridged in High sec onto other people and have to take gates/warp around and can thus be spotted early by gate scouts. All in all: My -1 remains and cynos ought to remain a Low/Null sec exclusive. Station Tab :: UI Improvement Collective

Daichi Yamato Xero Security and Technologies 2310	Posted - 2015.03.04 19:00:06 - [21] - Quote Whilst i had forgotten the stratios, it is not tankier than a covert T3. The covert subsystem comes with absolutely no sacrifice to tank or fitting. Rivr Luzade wrote: Bombers insta you every sub-cap ship in the game if there are enough of them and they are tanky enough to withstand a lot of damage if flown correctly. can you think of a ship that doesnt alpha any subcap in the game if there is enough of them? Velators alpha any ship in the game, including titans, if there are enough of them. No, bombers are not tanky enough to withstand a lot of damage. They are the fattest, slowest frigs in the game with about as much EHP as an attack frig. If you claim bombers are tanky when properly flown, then so are inties, covert ops frigs and shuttles. and when it comes to skipping low sec to get to a high sec island: its not like people have trouble getting their covert ops ships through low sec anyways...i mean they have to get another covert ops ship over there by gate to light the cyno in the first place... Honestly Rivr, you ****** up here. EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided" "So it will be up to a pilot to remain vigilant wherever they may be flying and be ready for anything at any time"
Arden Elenduil Laurus Manus Concordia Incorporated II 344	Posted - 2015.03.04 19:34:13 - [22] - Quote Rivr Luzade wrote: I also recommend to check my killboard first before you question my Bomber experience (Fortunately, you have to do that on your own as we are not allowed to link killmails in this forum. Just a hint, go back to the time from Oct 2013 to Dec 2013). Quite in contrast, I can question your experience with bombers after your statement that torp damage application is terrible on smaller ships. You clearly do not take the huge Ewar utility of bombers into account. . I went to have a look and see if I could find any bomber based kills. I'm sorry to say that I didn't find any. Granted, it was a rather large amount so I may have missed them. However, I'm curious as to what size of bomber gang you are talking about. You do have to take into account that 99% of all highsec PvP based corporations field no more than 10 to 15 people at maximum during operations. Notable exceptions are of course RvB and Eve University. However, outside of those you'd be hard pressed to find anyone really capable of reliably fielding 20+ man gangs. And most of those will fly something else than bombers I reckon. What I'm foreseeing is highsec blops drops being something that is done by groups of about 10 people at maximum, and this rather rarely. Comparing combat in highsec to the gangs in low/null is something that won't really work. And concerning the ability for someone in low/null (mainly null) to be able to see who to watch out for. Well, there's enough instances of alts set to blue standing being used as cynos. Once burned, a character should be easily recognizable, even in highsec local (standings).
Rivr Luzade Coreli Corporation The Kadeshi 1278	Posted - 2015.03.04 19:41:07 - [23] - Quote You could not bridge 1k Velators onto a target and then vanish into thin air. There is no damage landing on your bombers at all if you land on your target, headshot them and leave. We've done this countless times in Curse in 2013, no ship had a chance if it was solo and even in groups they died. We even managed to murder ships like RLM Cerberus with enough bombers while the bombers were able to tank the Cerb's missiles long enough. The tank of a Stratios is more than sufficient to tank any incoming damage while it can stay at a suitable range and let it's sentries or Heavy Drones do the work. I trust you have noticed Marmite's, POH's and the like's recent focus on Stratioses with Geckos to kill any opposition? Have 5 of these drop on you and any damage you can field is removed in short order. It is the point of "going through" low sec to begin with to induce the potential danger. It is also the point of having traffic in Low sec to begin with. People constantly complain about lack of people in Low sec, yet at the same time people want to remove even more of the traffic from there. This potential danger is 100% removed if you can bridge from High to High. Bringing a bridger and a suitable cyno is no hurdle at all. I can do that with my alts already. If you are in a proper corp, you can do it as well. I do not even care about Newbies, in fact, I couldn't care less about the current most prevalent type of Angry Bird newbies. What I care about are wardecs against all the other entities; what I care about is removed risk and added convenience; what I care about are unique things taken away from Low/Null that removes even more reasons to ever leave High; what I care about is sparing High of a completely ridiculous mechanic that causes constant complaints when it's used in Low/Null; what I care about is this constant hypocrisy of people here. @Arden Elenduil Read the mail. You really have to check the months I told you to check. Station Tab :: UI Improvement Collective
Sisohiv Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation 289	Posted - 2015.03.04 19:47:53 - [24] - Quote I weighed in on the GD one and still think the whole HS hot drop thing is a red herring. War Dec is circumvented by assets like me. Additional accounts kept in NPC corporations. That has been the way of EVE since 2003. Anybody that is undocked during a war dec is looking for a fight. If you want to bring T2 hulls, through a gate or through a cyno, they just make better killmails. I won't play the cloak and dagger game. I have 4 accounts, 12 characters. All 12 can fly either a Prorator or a Viator. 4 can fly, bridge and Cyno black Ops. I know the mechanics inside and out. I would be a liar if I didn't say I was heavily invested and with all that said? I'm still indifferent to this. I can bridge in from High to null now. Bridging out requires a pit stop in low sec. Remove that pit stop, I won't stop paying attention when I am running the Ops. The bridge in to Null is still the most dangerous aspect. it's not a game changer.
Uriel Paradisi Anteovnuecci Jovian Labs Jovian Enterprises 17389	Posted - 2015.03.04 21:13:46 - [25] - Quote +1 on this for sure: I really don't see much that can be said against it that doesn't have a counterpoint (But -1 on the timer: it's a method of transportation, not an illegal act) Again, +1: I'd like to see this eventually A City made of Wood is built in the forest A City made of Stone is built in the mountains But a City made of Dreams...is built in heaven. Jovian Proverb GÖâ
Daichi Yamato Xero Security and Technologies 2311	Posted - 2015.03.04 22:16:17 - [26] - Quote The only traffic lost from low sec is covert ops traffic, the least engaging traffic for low sec inhabitants. and even then, Cyno'ing to avoid low sec will still require a ship to travel through low sec first. there is still traffic. And that is of course assuming the covert ops pilot can be bothered to go through all the mess of setting it up when, he could just travel through gates with the same covert ops and almost guaranteed safety anyways. EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided" "So it will be up to a pilot to remain vigilant wherever they may be flying and be ready for anything at any time"
Zepheros Naeonis TinklePee 22	Posted - 2015.03.05 01:43:42 - [27] - Quote I like the idea, but there do not seem to be enough negatives to outweigh the positives. Some have made a good point that it would remove the low sec traffic, but lets be honest, most cov ops travelling in low don't get caught anyways unless they are careless. Cov ops is my pride and joy in the game, but I can't +1 this without more fleshing out. An automatic suspect flag isn't enough for me to say "sounds fair!".
Arden Elenduil Laurus Manus Concordia Incorporated II 351	Posted - 2015.03.05 02:55:37 - [28] - Quote Zepheros Naeonis wrote: I like the idea, but there do not seem to be enough negatives to outweigh the positives. Some have made a good point that it would remove the low sec traffic, but lets be honest, most cov ops travelling in low don't get caught anyways unless they are careless. Cov ops is my pride and joy in the game, but I can't +1 this without more fleshing out. An automatic suspect flag isn't enough for me to say "sounds fair!". What would you advise as more of an additional "downside"?


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