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To Exploit or not to Exploit!???

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Noggy	Posted - 2003.10.30 13:58:00 - [1] O.K I am sorry but I need to vent off a bit here. I usually don't post much to this forum as I use it to learn about the game and progress as I am relativly new. I have been an avid gamer for eons and have had my fair share of experience in Mmporgs. The thing I need to vent on is the attitude of some of you guys and the people who make this game, this including our helpful GM's on the acceptance of exploits. Now I already know from the previous posts what kind of replies I am going to get here and thats exactly why I need to vent. Let me just start off by saying that I agree that this game needs pirates, I am no care bare and have no problems in people being pirates or blasting ships away, I agree that this is needed to make this game a bit more interesting and the politics always bring a sense of community. What I do not agree with is the communites acceptance of exploiting in this game: Last night after reading my post on how to progress in the factories section on the fact that you can progress in this game without needing to mine for bistot. I decided to actually buy my megacyte and zydrine to build my first ship. Guess what? I had to go to a 0.4 system to get it, because even after 4 days I had none in my system. Now I understood the dangers of going into 0.0 space and know that you can get ganked in 0,4 too so I insured my ship and clone. Now here I am zoning into a system next to Torrinos and all I see after a bout a few seconds of loading is my pod just floating about in space!! I hear a smartass comment about, " Was that enough lag? Hehehehe" Yes thats right, some loser players decided that they would use the good ol Drone exploit again! Now before you start lecturing me on security zones and comming out with comments like " oh well thats your fault for being in 0.4 space" or " Well thats the game, stop whining about it" let me tell you that using drones to slow the game down IS AN EXPLOIT. YES Look up exploit Exploit = A vulnerability in software that can be used for breaking security or code bugs to benefit oneself to have an advantage of another person. I am sorry, but there is no argument here. Lagging up a system so badly on purpose and then bragging about it is indeed a griefer and indeed exploiting. The thing is I actually was prepared for a battle and prepared for the consequences but I am not prepared to just lie back and take it when someones clearly expoloiting the game mechanics. Then they had the cheek to turn around to me and start *****ing and moaning about the fact that "well you guys have sentry guns in 1.0 areas and I think thats an exploit". I was also told to contact any GM in game as this was considered acceptable and part of the Game by the Gm's!!!??? WTF?? No wonder people leave this game in droves when they get that kinda attitude. So what is basically being said is this: If you are a newbie then you can't do anything but mine veldspar in your own zone because if you try and do anything else we will use an exploit to kill you instantly and we can get away with it because thats the way the game is. So what do you think?? Bring on the flames :) Noggy
Fausto	Posted - 2003.10.30 14:50:00 - [2] Edited by: Fausto on 30/10/2003 14:50:02 There is something you can do. Arm your ship and join a group that is hunting pirates. and then you get to camp jump points and wait for pirates And you get them to scream: Exploit!!! Try it, will make you feel much better. ______ <brainpodder>
Zeldania	Posted - 2003.10.30 14:54:00 - [3] Noggy, Drones are a integral part of the game. Depending on the types of drones used, I see no exploit involved. If they were mining drones, then indeed it is a bit of a shady tactic but not classified as an exploit per se. You say the persons involved were bragging about it in local. Therefor you could copy the chatlog and send it in asan exploit. I doubt you will have success though as chat logs can be falsified. In any event, good luck in the future. You can console yourself in the knowledge that you had a good clone and insurance so your losses should be minimal.
Viceroy	Posted - 2003.10.30 15:11:00 - [4] Its not an exploit, have a cookie -
Avon	Posted - 2003.10.30 15:17:00 - [5] Quote: If they were mining drones, then indeed it is a bit of a shady tactic but not classified as an exploit per se. Actually, it is. ______________________________________________ Never argue with idiots. They will just drag it down to their level, and then beat you through experience.
Darrin Tobruk	Posted - 2003.10.30 15:44:00 - [6] i wouldn't mind hearing from a GM on this. or someone from ccp. i would like to hear their reasoning as to how this is not an exploit. _______________________________________________ Eris Discordia: On the scale of funny and constructive it scores low, real low.
Zarquon Beeblebrox	Posted - 2003.10.30 15:55:00 - [7] Quote: Noggy, I doubt you will have success though as chat logs can be falsified. Rest a sure that the chat logs are loged server side aswell =) -- Lady Beeblebrox Teddybears movies
Bexxly	Posted - 2003.10.30 16:06:00 - [8] [13yo mentality] Noggy stop being a whiney little ****head who needs to learn to STFU, so you were ganked, big deal, who cares, get over it, how can deploying drones be an exploit fool! [/13yo mentality]
SuicideFred	Posted - 2003.10.30 16:10:00 - [9] Quote: [13yo mentality] Noggy stop being a whiney little ****head who needs to learn to STFU, so you were ganked, big deal, who cares, get over it, how can deploying drones be an exploit fool! [/13yo mentality] Noggy is right. It's an exploit and everybody knows it. You're the one that needs to STFU.
Corpsicle	Posted - 2003.10.30 16:11:00 - [10] The reason this isnt clasified as an exploit is because CCP would be flooded with claims and they would not be able to verify most of them. So for the time being they're turning a blind eye to this. Once they change the way that spawn points are handled and add in the new code for preventing lagging then this will be a thing of the past. The reason that so many folk spawn camp is because its just about the only way to ensure a kill. Before they put gate guns everywhere there was very little spawn point camping.
Lord Guerdo	Posted - 2003.10.30 16:32:00 - [11] here we go again. USING OGRES WASPS OR ANY KIND OF ATTACK DRONES / SCOUT DRONES IS NOT AN EXPLOIT!!! USING HARVESTER / BASIC MINING DRONES IS!! that clear enough for yah??????? Few of us in Biomass have spoken to GM's ingame regarding this issue and they confirm that using those types of drones is not an exploit so please shut this **in thread up!!!! Lord Guerdo Biomass Cartel I mean c'mon, just think about it. What would make more sense then the 3 most hated alliances teaming up to lay waste to the people they all hate anyways? CA is already allied with PA, and TPS lies between the two alliances. Natural allies to be sure. But it's not just that, all but PA (and even some of them) have adopted a "stfu and die, or come and fight us, we don't give a ** what you think or do" philosophy, as well as a PvP Kill everyone not friend kind of mentality. These are the people in eve that kill or convert, the ones dedicated to the death of others, because history, circumstance, and the rest of eve have driven then to do so (except TPS, who are just cool ass pirates ).
XpoHoc	Posted - 2003.10.30 16:45:00 - [12] Using drones is no exploit => Drones need to be in space before the fight begins, because you have other things to do during a fight => deploying drones out of your bay before battle is no exploit => camping jump ins is no exploit. Even that you "exploit" a bad designed aspect of the game you still need your drone out before the fight begins.
Noggy	Posted - 2003.10.30 16:48:00 - [13] Strange how the guilty party considers this to not be an exploit eh? Though everyone else does? Also strange how you got so defensive and aggro about this. Maybe feeling a bit guilty? Where do GM's say this is not an exploit? Its so obviously an exploit it has exploit written all over it in bold neon lighting!! How can you say that lagging the server down so much that the person has absolutley NO way of doing jack about it is fair and part of the game? Thats BULL man! And you know it. Oh and besides, I am not 13 and I do not have a 13year old mentality. I am not crying cause I got ganked I am complaining about the fact that some people here are doing these deeds by cheating and they blimming well know it. Noggy
Noggy	Posted - 2003.10.30 16:51:00 - [14] Quote: Using drones is no exploit => Drones need to be in space before the fight begins, because you have other things to do during a fight => deploying drones out of your bay before battle is no exploit => camping jump ins is no exploit. Even that you "exploit" a bad designed aspect of the game you still need your drone out before the fight begins. \| TunDraGon \| Huh??? Tell me on what planet does this logic make sense?? I never said deploying your drones before battle is an exploit you fool! I am saying deploying many many many drones and leaving cargo lieng around by the masses specifically to cause LAG is an Exploit!
Bexxly	Posted - 2003.10.30 16:58:00 - [15] Quote: Quote: [13yo mentality] Noggy stop being a whiney little **head who needs to learn to STFU, so you were ganked, big deal, who cares, get over it, how can deploying drones be an exploit fool! [/13yo mentality] Noggy is right. It's an exploit and everybody knows it. You're the one that needs to STFU. no you are, moaning **
Avast Ye	Posted - 2003.10.30 17:47:00 - [16] Edited by: Avast Ye on 30/10/2003 17:55:21 Edited by: Avast Ye on 30/10/2003 17:49:08 Quote: Strange how the guilty party considers this to not be an exploit eh? Though everyone else does? The GM's are the guilty party? Quote: Also strange how you got so defensive and aggro about this. Maybe feeling a bit guilty? Probably sick of hearing carebears whining about it Quote: Where do GM's say this is not an exploit? Its so obviously an exploit it has exploit written all over it in bold neon lighting!! Read Lord Gueardo's post, he told you Quote: How can you say that lagging the server down so much that the person has absolutley NO way of doing jack about it is fair and part of the game? Thats BULL man! And you know it. If you don't want killed don't got to dangerous places, if you autopilot through them you are usually ok though Quote: Oh and besides, I am not 13 and I do not have a 13year old mentality. I am not crying cause I got ganked I am complaining about the fact that some people here are doing these deeds by cheating and they blimming well know it. Noggy IT ISN'T CHEATING Just a tip - if you are going to a system that may be unsafe then check the number of ship kills in the last 24 hours on the map, then decide whether to go or not.
Viceroy	Posted - 2003.10.30 18:02:00 - [17] GMs have confirmed it is not an exploit: using drones is not an exploit using mining drones is not an exploit CCP says so, so have a cookie -
Dolemite2K	Posted - 2003.10.30 18:14:00 - [18] can I have a cookie too? ----------------------------------------------- Life is like a long poo that you have to take a bite of every day
pooti	Posted - 2003.10.30 18:14:00 - [19] It may not be an exploit, but it's a pretty lame tactic.
Elmar Solderi	Posted - 2003.10.30 18:22:00 - [20] Edited by: Elmar Solderi on 30/10/2003 18:39:05 hey moron, try fighting in drone ships whit out useing drones, what did you say you cant? oh then stfu If it aint nailed down its mine. --------- kil list: 3 thorax's 1 moa 2 pod's 1 repunter ------- 1 death
Scragg	Posted - 2003.10.30 18:27:00 - [21] "When a player jumps into a system, he is loaded into the system before he sees space and his options load on-screen. This is how the gameplay is implemented. The spawnpoints, where the ships re-appear in the jumped-to-system, are few and that makes it easy for soulless pirates to target and kill defenseless pilots before they can do anything. Some pirates have used numerous battle drones, causing even more lag, which can make your spawntime even longer and thus easier for the pirates to kill you. Since it has been decreed by CCP that this is a gameplay issue and the lag is player created, we are not able to reimburse players that get hit this way." So basically... player created lag is perfectly within the rules. My opinion... CCP made a hosed up game and can't fix this exploit nor can they prove after the fact that people do it. So, they just say it's a player created situation well within acceptable play guidelines. LAME............ They just need to fix this feature and be done with it. I'm ok with gate camping nad even spawn point camping but when you do things to create lag on purpose to trap people thats just wrong. Scragg, Tyrell Corporation Vice-Director Military Operations
Clintus McGintus	Posted - 2003.10.30 18:39:00 - [22] This is the first time I have heard of this, but it makes sence. I flew through some heavy pirate space the other day and 4 systems in a row I had pirates at my jump in points. But I had it on auto pilot and was out before they had time lock onto me. However only once did they have drones deployed. I didn't see any lag. We shall see what CCP will do. Until then there is nothing any of us can do. So just deal. ________________________________________________ May the Force be with you.
RazorDreamz	Posted - 2003.10.30 18:55:00 - [23] Boo hoo. If people didn't whine about pirates at gates then they wouldn't need to camp spawn points, they would still be sitting at gates. Blame yourself. --------------------------------------- CSM Chat Log September 25, 2003: Fuhry> Some things we simply cannot test, and therefore we just put it on Tranq. cross our fingers and then get into panic m
Shamis Orzoz	Posted - 2003.10.30 19:18:00 - [24] Edited by: Shamis Orzoz on 30/10/2003 19:22:18 CCP needs to change this. Call it whatever you want, the people that jump into the system don't have a chance. Granted, the map can be used to protect yourself against most of this, but if you're in a dangerous area, anytime you see a pilot in the next system you have to wonder if you will get killed when you jump. What CCP needs to do is figure out a way to make sure your ship does not appear until you are finished loading. Then you will have as much time to get away as they have to target you. Along with this, they should apply the same principle for people coming out of warp. You should not appear until you finish loading, but they should get rid of the 10 second delay on locking so that once you do load, people can lock you immediately. This would promote more fighting, which is good, but everyone would be on equal footing. I was happy about the jump in point exploit/whatever at first because it is so hard to kill people due to the 10 second delays after warp. Finally there was a way to actually kill people that weren't asleep at the wheel. But it is just too easy to kill people with this. You could be the best fighter pilot in the world, but if you jump into a system by yourself, and there are 2 guys there you could be webbed, warp scrambled, and jammed before you load the screen. This is lame.
Torik	Posted - 2003.10.30 19:42:00 - [25] Just because this tactic is not illegal it does not make it right. There is a basic assumption in a game like this that the outcome of PvP combat is to be determined by the skill and preparation of the participants. Anything else makes the PvP a farce. As a matter of fact jump-in camping is not really an exploit. Exploiting involves abusing small flaws and loopholes in an otherwise working system. This system is such a failure that you can't really say what is a flaw and what is intended.
Noggy	Posted - 2003.10.30 20:07:00 - [26] Edited by: Noggy on 30/10/2003 20:09:38 Quote: The GM's are the guilty party? No the person that was acting up was the guilty party. Sheesh Quote: Probably sick of hearing carebears whining about it Look pal, this isnt a carebears issue, its not a blimming blue rinse brigade issue and its not a dog farms issue, its EVERYONES issue mate! This could happen to YOU next time you warp into a 0.4 zone. Quote: Read Lord Gueardo's post, he told you Yeah well whoever said that was not necesarrily CCP and besides as someone mentioned. It is SO obvious that its some bollox ramble that some guy has said to keep people from flooding them with complaints until they fix the problem. What do the goverment do when theres a problem? Yepp, they deny knowledge. Trust me, they will admit theres a problem when they fix it. Also TomB said in his Dev talks that this is a problem they intend to fix. Do you think they would need to fix the warp in time if it wasn't a problem? Do the maths.. Quote: If you don't want killed don't got to dangerous places, if you autopilot through them you are usually ok though Man, this was a .4 system!! Am I supposed to stay in 1.0 space all my life? I have no fear of getting killed I told you that, I even anticipated it. Though not through cheating and exploits!! Besides, I had my autopilot on but you know the bit when you just warp in and it needs to realign?? Well I was doing that in a pod! Quote: IT ISN'T CHEATING errrm.. YES IT IS!!!! Look people. Those of you that get all defensive about this are obviously a guilty party doing this and dont like getting backed up against the wall. This isnt about pirates this is about people using exploits!! OK? Oh and trust me, I got a super fast pc and internet connection. This is no client side lag, its the game mechanics like it or not. I have played other mmporgs in rooms with over 2000 people and not had this lag, this is in a game where there are 6 people using ways to create lag.. IE a Game flaw Anyway.. The GM is currently investigating this case so they havent dissmissed it as you all suggested. Thanks Noggy
Ruce	Posted - 2003.10.30 20:13:00 - [27] Is it an exploit? Yes per the definition of the word absolutely. Is it bannable or punishable? Apparently not. Arguing the letter of the law will just be an exercise in frustration as those who use the tactic know full well what their intentions are however because of their cowardly nature will never cop to it. You will get similar attitude from all online games. Ever since BBSs were the main online arenas there were individuals who felt empowered by the anonymity. They act like true adam henrys because there is a severe lack of reprucussion for their actions / attitude. It's actually mathematical. The less able a person is in RL physically weak or ugly, dimwitted etc... The bigger jerk he is online. This is a proven fact. I will get a link to the study that was done. The choice then becomes yours. Do you want to be part of that environment or no? Because you certainly aren't going to change it anytime soon.
Osash	Posted - 2003.10.30 20:40:00 - [28] It's simple really. I got sick of this tactic as well. So, I picked a pirate infested area (Obe), and now camp the warp in spot and kill Biomass. My buddy and I killed 3 of them yesterday, although we had no drones deployed :), but I plan on using drones in the future, because they can help in combat, not because they cause lag. It is quite refreshing hearing the pirates yell explote, while I'm picking up their loot. Of note, this path of mine was chosen because the pirates chased my out of my mining area. Thus, my recommendation to you; go get some drones and lets kill some pirates!!!
SuicideFred	Posted - 2003.10.30 20:43:00 - [29] Exploit. It's an exploit. People use this exploit to kill players before they have a chance to respond. There's no skills, modules, guns, tactics, or anything else the victim can use to fight back. And don't even consider calling it anything that touches on game play. It's not game play. One side sure as hell ain't playing when this exploit is used. Nobody can tell me CCP had this type of thing planned for jump in points when they wrote the code for Eve. Some players have found the flaw in the jump in logic and are exploiting it to rack up kills they wouldn't otherwise get. It's an exploit.
Dolemite2K	Posted - 2003.10.31 01:42:00 - [30] Quote: It's simple really. I got sick of this tactic as well. So, I picked a pirate infested area (Obe), and now camp the warp in spot and kill Biomass. My buddy and I killed 3 of them yesterday, although we had no drones deployed :), but I plan on using drones in the future, because they can help in combat, not because they cause lag. It is quite refreshing hearing the pirates yell explote, while I'm picking up their loot. Of note, this path of mine was chosen because the pirates chased my out of my mining area. Thus, my recommendation to you; go get some drones and lets kill some pirates!!! An inocent miner forced to leav his profesion, cause of evil pirats is on a quest for revenge. wow this story has made for tv movie written all over it ----------------------------------------------- Life is like a long poo that you have to take a bite of every day

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