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Gan Ning	Posted - 2003.10.31 12:29:00 - [1] A frigate in an EVE battle is rare, they simple have no advantage or point being in an environment where they could get blown up in a split second. I propose a massive overhaul to Frigates which will make them the kings of fast attacks and scouting. All Frigates should have a minimum speed of 500 m/s and very high agility. All Frigates should be impossible to hit with Battleship sized turrets. And near impossible to hit with Cruiser turrets, especially if they are orbiting within 3km of that ship. Frigates should specialise in obselete modules such as ship scanner and some sensor linked modules. I just think winning a battle shouldn't be determined by who has the most battleships but rather who has the best strategy and ships for that purpose. The Frigate needs a purpose other than the next thing after your noobie ship.
Stue	Posted - 2003.10.31 12:39:00 - [2] I agree. As it is now, frigates are the symbol of n00b-hood, which you will wanna get rid of as soon as possible. Frigates deserve a role in massive combat. Though i dont fully agree with your ideas as i find them somehow too drastic. Battleships and cruisers should be able to hit frigates, but have a very hard job doing so, as frigates are quick and agile and it would require some fast-tracking turrets to track their trajectory. Or use drones against them. Frigates should not be too powerful though, as the price to replace them is close to zero. However there must be a valid reason for people to support an armada of battleships and cruisers with frigates
Chai N'Dorr	Posted - 2003.10.31 12:53:00 - [3] Quote: \|Stue:\|I agree. As it is now, frigates are the symbol of n00b-hood, which you will wanna get rid of as soon as possible. Well, my symbol of n00b-hood can kick quite some buttock against NPC's. Though in PvP I don't think it'd last long... we really need an overhaul for those fans of Frigates.
Nerhtal Al'Thali	Posted - 2003.10.31 12:53:00 - [4] I agree to a small extent on the fact that tracking on guns of low tracking should find it nearly impossible to hit close orbiting frigates. But thats about as far as i am willing to go changes required. Elite frigates are going to be marginally good i hear. Then comes tech 2 in 14 years time. "Game Experience And Dev Opinions May Change With The Time Of Day During Online Play" Oveur "First in, last out" Bridgeburner Motto
NajZero	Posted - 2003.10.31 13:14:00 - [5] wait for tech lvl 2 and then Frigates have a special Role in the game. For DeepCore Mining and Scouting you need Frigates. The Deep Core Miner needs aapx. 1500 CPU and only the Mining Frigate can fit this miner because they got bonus -60% cpu usage from deepcore miner. and so on. And BS in near future can¦t hit a Frigate, because the Turret speed is to slow.
Juan Andalusian	Posted - 2003.10.31 13:16:00 - [6] Good ideas... but i find the Large Weapons vs Frigs and Med Weapons vs Frigs suggestions a bit too general. Should be more in the lines of Long range weapons have an extremely hard time hitting fast moving frigs ... and short ranged weapons mediums especially should be able to tackle frigates. Pain is meant to be felt
Andex	Posted - 2003.10.31 13:55:00 - [7] I agree...a wing Frigates should be deadly to unescorted Battleships. Pickets of cruisers, drones, and other frigate(interceptors) should be necessary to take Battleships into battle. The invincible Man-O Wars of the Spanish Armada was destroyed by a numerically lesser force of fast British frigates..forever changing naval warefar. In WW2 torpedo boats, small submarines, and fighters took out Japenese battleships with ease. Why do F-14s carry $2MM antiaicraft missles while F-16s and F-15s carry cheap missles...because they are protecting expensive capital ships.
Andex	Posted - 2003.10.31 14:26:00 - [8] It really isnt a problem of frigates...its a problem of battleships. Battleships should be used for long range(having limited short range defense): tactical targets like other battleships and cruisers, and strategic targets like Titans, stations, sentry guns, jump gates, and mobile refineries. Fleet battles would be fixed if BSs could temporarily kill all jump gates in a system...and once a system has been interdicted anyone choosing to log off and not fight would suffer financial damages to the remaining players (cdts would get a by).
Joshua Calvert	Posted - 2003.10.31 15:26:00 - [9] Ummm, battles aren't determined by how many battleships you have, anyway. LEEEEERRRRRRRRRRROOOOOOOOOYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY!
Andex	Posted - 2003.10.31 16:03:00 - [10] what about frigates?...do you ever take them into battle?...and ist that the point?
Acuna Traos	Posted - 2003.10.31 16:38:00 - [11] Due to being lazy I can't be bothered reading all the replies, but I do agree frigates need to be faster, as well as cruisers (but by a lesser degree). The difference in speed between the ships just isn't big enough, especially with new ship classes in the pipe line.
WindWalker	Posted - 2003.10.31 17:19:00 - [12] Couldn't agree with you more Cpt. Ning. To use some analogies, massive damage dealing naval battleship guns would have very little chance of scoring a hit against a PT boat, but are rather effective against their counterparts. Hence the need for smaller caliber weapons onboard naval ships to handle a variety of threats. This should be the case in EVE. If you want to defend against Frigates, you should dedicate a hi-slot to a small weapon type or have your own frigate screening force. We can also consider Star Wars. X-wings had very little difficulty engaging Imperial Capital ships. Sure there were specific laser batteries designed to engage fighters as part of their weapon complement. But overall, large weapons sure NOT be able to hit fast moving frigates except under lucky circumstances. Likewise, frigates do NOT have the firepower to take down a Cruiser or Battleship with ease. There needs to be a balance and Frigates should really be a viable ship to pilot in any engagement. Frigate chasing frigate through fleets of Cruisers and Battleships would be such a treat. Cheers! ____________________ *Keep your hands on your isk and your eyes on your six*
Thesper	Posted - 2003.10.31 18:03:00 - [13] I think we need a sort of mid point ship, something like an expensive cruiser, which has the ability to mount somekind of super-large weaponry. This weaponry would be able to chew battleships to pieces (within reason. One of these on 1 BS would probably result in massive damage but overall victory to the BS). However, this ship would have less other slots than even a level 1 cruiser and would cost more. Also, it's super cannon would be useless against frigates and only good up close against cruisers. Basically, to take an analogy from Homeworld, which has the kind of fleet balance I think EVE should aim towards, we need ion cannon frigates or equivalent. To simplify all that down a bit, we need a ship with one really big gun.
Plasmatique	Posted - 2003.10.31 18:35:00 - [14] Edited by: Plasmatique on 31/10/2003 18:37:10 I fully support ideas such as this. However, I think before we go down this road, a few other things need to be changed. Warp in distances. Right now, you warp to something and you're always 20-30km from it. If you could select a distance, like 60km or higher, we might be able to facilitate a tracking reduction for large turrets. Without this change and slowing them down it even makes battleship to battleship combat difficult at those default ranges. Battleships SHOULD be masters of the battlefield. But, they should also have vulnerabilities to things like small fast ships. Or you could leave them the way they are and give the tracking disruptor modules a buff. Does anybody even use these? Doubt it, because I've tested them alot and they are mostly useless. ..................................... Proud Owner of a Navy Issue Raven
eXaro	Posted - 2003.10.31 19:30:00 - [15] solving this is verry easy. frigs = fly close to bship = bship cant hit ya. or. ccp make "elite frigs" frigs that cose 1mil and up. (super powerfull frig sized ships.. (4+ high slots. but only enough power to fit small guns ;) more armor sheeld speed etc [i]Innocent child how you thought you knew me understood my ways my dark needs the hunt is not the thrill Im after I want the kill the conquest to
Kaylon Syi	Posted - 2003.10.31 20:17:00 - [16] Edited by: Kaylon Syi on 31/10/2003 20:19:46 Edited by: Kaylon Syi on 31/10/2003 20:18:33 I think your all crazy. If you people don't take Frigates into battle then that is their own fault. Sounds more to me like everyone has a bit of Battleship envy. When it comes time to battle some would take out their 50+ million ISK ship and get it destroyed in 10 seconds them come here and boo-hoo about it. Why don't you mine some scordite in a Battleship and Deck out a Cruiser or Frigate at much less the cost and actually learn some tactics ... oh i guess you just get caught in the - "PvP in Eve is mainly one thing - gate camping and warping in and positioned BSs win unless majorly outnumberd." fluff that is all over the forums. Well people I'm here to tell you today that you all need to get a grip and learn some tactics. Frigates have their role in combat but NOONE uses them for it. You just try to use it like a freaking cruiser. I would outline some strategies for using them but then my corps Naval General would courtmarshall me. Instead of Crying about "this class ship is worthless... find some noob-ie pilots in your corp and pay for their clones and build them a rifter or Kestrel and tell them what they need to do after you come up with some real tactics. If you think frigates need more speed you OBVIOUSLY never flew a rifter, incursus or the all mighty Vigil. Those can be darn pesky in numbers. Heck even a Tristan can be used in fleet combat if you have enuff pilots and tell that pilot "Im not gonna bullcrap you but your probably gonna die, but your role in this battle is to fall... just by us time." Geesh... stop the "Eve frigates are unbalanced... drones are 733t and pwn meh" and try to stategize... if all you care about is saving your clone then your not a team player. edit: Josh Calvert... your not crazy... wasn't talking bout you as your were the first one to make a sensible comment to this stupid thread.
Andex	Posted - 2003.10.31 21:03:00 - [17] Yes a noobie with 100 k skill points in a Rifter...now thats a potent fighting machine....why didn't we think of that....
Arud	Posted - 2003.10.31 22:31:00 - [18] dont worry, when megacyte becomes rarer than security fixes from microsoft people wont be able to afford replacing their battleships after a battles so people will be forced to go back to cheap frigates or even reaaly expensive crusiers
MaiLina KaTar	Posted - 2003.11.01 04:08:00 - [19] Edited by: MaiLina KaTar on 01/11/2003 04:08:29 click ->here<- for the real deal... the mother of all threads about frigs Mai's Idealog
Kaylon Syi	Posted - 2003.11.01 04:48:00 - [20] Quote: Yes a noobie with 100 k skill points in a Rifter...now thats a potent fighting machine....why didn't we think of that.... Who said you had to be potent... you obviously think tactics revolve around who has the biggest guns and ship and warping and blast things up. What a great idea... Eve is just built for that kind of thing... keeps the economy up too. Why don't you have frigates to run distraction raids? If your in a system with 2 entrances and have 2 fleets, 1 of frigates and 1 of Battleships and cruisers coming in ... the enemy doesn't know which fleet it is unless they use tactics and have scouts. NOW... once you both jump in they don't know where you are and if each fleet is cordiated correctly... you should either make them run with their tails between their legs or be able to run a multitude of tactics. NO ONE SAID THE FRIGATES WOULD BE USEFULL AS A COMBATANT - though the can be... just that they have a major role in an economic simulator. But sometimes i guess people can't read between the lines and have to have CCP hand everything to them on glass plates.
xeno calligan	Posted - 2003.11.01 05:51:00 - [21] Quote: Edited by: MaiLina KaTar on 01/11/2003 04:08:29 click ->here<- for the real deal... the mother of all threads about frigs I second that emotion ... and please read the entire thread, so we don't have to repeat the same arguments over and over -- I promise it's worth your time to read the entire thing.
Kunming	Posted - 2003.11.02 10:17:00 - [22] @Najzero: Hmm are u sure about that? I was in Chaos and haven't seen anything about that, except the cloaking device, the mobile refinery, the player station... Well BSs were actually made to destroy stations and not be the ubership-class. But I dont agree on the point that cruisers shouldnt be able to hit frigates, they should be the escort of BSs. It should be triangle like this: -Battleships can destoy stations and cruisers but not frigates -Cruisers can kill frigates easyly but have a hard time with stations and BSs -Frigates can take out BSs with their fast attacks, and missile frigates should be a danger for cruisers Intercepting since BETA
Caldfyr Reynolds	Posted - 2003.11.02 11:20:00 - [23] The problem with battleships is that the only thing close to an actual battleship are the small ones. Everything else is so large as to be a juggernaut, entirely out of proportion. Historically, battleships and cruisers didn't have such a disparity in size. A Witchita Class Heavy Cruiser was 185M long and had nine 8" guns and eight 5" guns. A King George V class battleship was 227M long with ten 14", sixteen 5.25", and thirty-two of a smaller gun. The mighty Bismarck was only 248M long. So, one of the biggest cruisers of WW2 was 2/3 the size of the biggest battleship to sail the Atlantic. Anyone ever take a look at a Moa next to an Apocalypse? Battleships were a little bit bigger in both length and beam to accommodate a few more guns. By all rights, 3 Moas, Mallers, or Thoraxes should be able to put a serious beating on, if not destroy, your typical non-apoc battleship. A frigate really isn't much of a ship. Any modern day frigate taking 1 or 2 salvos from a WW2 battleship would be decorating the sea floor. But that's okay, because frigates are support vessels. They could be tweaked a bit in speed, especially with the soon to be introduced destroyers. I think that if the frigates managed between 350 and 420M/s then the destroyers could be in the 250-350 range. 500M/s is simply too fast for a frigate not running with burners on. It's a frigate, not a fighter. Heck, it's not even a bomber. The point of a frigate group is to apply concentrated firepower in support of heavier ships, like cruisers and battleships. TomB's idea of targetting speed being determined by ship size is ludicrous. If a sensor can pick out an object, then it can target that object. Simple as that. Targetting speed should be based on skill and quality of equipment. Against a battleship, frigates are already viable if you have enough of them, it just takes a whole lot of frigates, with enough EW to keep the battleship from running away. But it should take that many. The fact that large weapons can barely hit a moving frigate inside of 8-10KM (my tachs average 1 in every 6 shots successful) sounds like sufficiently slow weapon tracking to me. So I guess the only tweaking that needs to be done to frigates is a little bit more speed and agility. Enough to be able to distinguish between destroyers and frigates, but without making frigates into fighters. What frigates need more than anything is a cruiser to protect. They're a support ship with nothing to support. Eve's cruisers are more destroyer than anything, and that's being nice about it. A battleship should be able to dispatch a cruiser without much difficulty, but it shouldn't be able to ignore one for as long as they currently can. Battleships should be for cruiser commanders that get size envy and can't stand not having just a few more guns to play with. I just think winning a battle shouldn't be determined by who has the most battleships but rather who has the best strategy and ships for that purpose -- Gan Ning I agree, but your suggestions for frigates would be an incredible nerf to battleships instead of needed balancing. In truth, battleships are fine as they are. Cruisers need a boost to bring them up to the strength their class type deserves. Frigate commanders need to realize that they were never intended to dish out massive damage on their own, or survive more than a couple shots from a cruiser or battleship's biggest guns. Frigates support by concentrating fire in a group effort. If TomB is going to balance the ships he first needs to understand the logistics of navy fleets and battles.
Jasmyn	Posted - 2003.11.03 00:28:00 - [24] good call. i agree with your post 100%. though i dont know about BS weapons compleatly missing..id say if the bs can actually hit the frigate at the opt. range then ..well .. thats to bad for the frig! Someone once told me they loved me.
Zyrla Bladestorm	Posted - 2003.11.03 01:32:00 - [25] nice post caldfyr .. but I'm going to have to disagree .. they dont have to adhere to naval logistics in any shape or form .. being as its a game set in space, a long time in the future .. in a galaxy far far away they can basically do what they want that said frigates and cruisers both need a reason to be . ----- Apologys for any rambling that may have just occurred.
1FSTCAT	Posted - 2003.11.03 12:10:00 - [26] I think It should all do with the big guns on the big huge weapons on the battle ships should,nt be able to hit a frigate but if they mount small fast fireing turrets they should be able to hit the frigates but the frigate should be in range at that stage and be able to hit the battle ship as well saying that 4-6 small frigates should be able to overwelm the battle ship small anti-frigate turret unless they owner filled all his turret slots with them now if the battle ship had huge guns only and a couple of thorax escorts with 5 anti frigate guns each then the frigates would have to call on a battle ship to take out the cruiser escort before the frigates could be sent in to jam and disable the battleship and the frigates Rolls I would like to see Battleships = take out other Battle ships and slow moving cruisers Cruisers protect battle ships from frigates and drones or be mobile missile launchers while the battle ships big guns deal with the big targets Frigates protect battle ships from drones missiles and other frigates maybe bring in manuvering thrusters that allow ship to zig zag the faster the ship the harder to hit
Nervar	Posted - 2003.11.03 13:50:00 - [27] How is a griffin Useless inn a navy batlle, with its 4 med slots and 3 launchers.. Off course they are gonna die at some point, But hey they are cheap... -------------------------------------------------> What I look forward to is continued immaturity followed by death.
Zyrla Bladestorm	Posted - 2003.11.03 15:18:00 - [28] useless mostly because the osprey and moa can both do that and carry bigger turrets/launchers with a lot more toughness and a blackbird can do 50% more in both categorys .. the battleships only do it even better with very little downsides right now . ----- Apologys for any rambling that may have just occurred.
Outlaw	Posted - 2003.11.03 20:05:00 - [29] The question I have is: Are Frigates really obsolete or is the way two sides meet in PVP that makes Frigates obsolete? My answer to this is yes. CCP has made the Frigate obsolete. CCP needs to fix how two sides engage in PVP. ATM the two sides usually meet at some jump in point, one side defending the jumping in and the other jumping in. Of course a Frigate or Cruiser will not stand a chance with this type of PVP game mechanism. Now say that there was ways to have two sides engage one another and close from a far distance. The Frigate would have great roles to play. You could have you fast attack wings, missile wings and other types of wings. Now does the Battleship forget about the Frigates or attack them. Well forget them, as his side would also have Frigates to fend off approaching Frigates. Leaving the Battleships to engage the bigger ships. Frigates now have a viable role within fleet action. Conclusion CCP has made the Frigate Obsolete do to the game mechanics of how two sides engage in PVP. Without a Fix, the Frigate will stay obsolete.
Archemedes	Posted - 2003.11.03 20:37:00 - [30] Frigates do have a few advantages. They are: 1) Cheap 2) Fast 3) Hard to hit (possibly going to be harder to hit next patch) 4) Easy to fly (most frigate combat skills are rank 1-2) Unfortunately, these advantages look better on paper than in the game, since: 1) You are more likely to get podded in a frigate, and replacing implants can cost more than replacing an insured battleship. If I'm going to be out 20 million ISK either way, I'd rather fly a Scorpion than a Kestral! Also, cruisers are so cheap that they ALSO make good disposable ships and are far safer to fly. 2) Speed doesn't help enough in combat, especially against missiles (unless you are VERY fast). Plus MWD equipped battleships can outrun even speed frigates... 3) Being hard to hit ends as soon as you get in web range, and you usually have to get in web range to do much damage unless you fly a missile frigate. And by the time you can fit a missile frigate with cruise missiles, you can fit a missile CRUISER with torps... 4) Great if you have noobs who like PVP, but if people wait until they have the skills to be good at it they're probably goint to be in a cruiser or battleship. And of course the biggest reason that no one uses frigates in PVP is that... no one uses frigates in PVP! Frigates are best at fighting other frigates and light cruisers. If most fleets are made up of battleships, tier 3 combat cruisers, and Blackbirds, what exactly is a frigate supposed to do? The only real jobs in a battle are dishing out damage and EW, neither of which a frigate is very good at. It's only scouting that frigates are potentially better at, and even there a good cruiser with an MWD or two is more likely to reach the target since the fighting happens at blockades... Maybe we need new TYPES of combat modules that are best suited to frigates. For instance, let them mount a "targeter" in a high slot that can be activated on an enemy ship to increase its signature, making it easier to hit. Or let frigates mount a "sensor relay" that allows an allied ship to target something the frigate locks on to even if it is jammed or out of range. Frigates are excellent scout ships... they should be able to act as such in a battle. Let their primary function be to enhance the abilities of cruisers and battleships and fight other frigates, rather than trying to make them just another type of gunship.

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