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Promiscuous Medusa
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
3
   |
Posted - 2015.03.15 21:20:15 -
[31] - Quote
Kabark wrote:Promiscuous Medusa wrote:250km, 500km, its all the same when autoprobing lands tackle on you.
Why 500 anyway? Is 200 not safe enough? :/ For the lulz. I've lost a couple snipers to probes but it is tremendous fun to sit 200 off gate and a frig jumps in and doesn't warp off right away. Then realizes he just got locked and poped. But can someone give me a run down on how optimal and falloff work together? Or link the page that explains it. I still don't have a full understanding on how the targeting system works.
Optimal = 100% DPS
Optimal + Falloff = 50% DPS
Optimal + 2xFalloff = 0 DPS
So 500dps, op 10km, falloff 5km
10km - 500dps
15km - 250dps
20km - 0dps
19.9km - like... 1 dps.
Not including all the other factors. |
Lugh Crow-Slave
894
|
Posted - 2015.03.15 21:23:56 -
[32] - Quote
Promiscuous Medusa wrote:Kabark wrote:Promiscuous Medusa wrote:250km, 500km, its all the same when autoprobing lands tackle on you.
Why 500 anyway? Is 200 not safe enough? :/ For the lulz. I've lost a couple snipers to probes but it is tremendous fun to sit 200 off gate and a frig jumps in and doesn't warp off right away. Then realizes he just got locked and poped. But can someone give me a run down on how optimal and falloff work together? Or link the page that explains it. I still don't have a full understanding on how the targeting system works. Optimal = 100% DPS Optimal + Falloff = 50% DPS Optimal + 2xFalloff = 0 DPS So 500dps, op 10km, falloff 5km 10km - 500dps 15km - 250dps 20km - 0dps 19.9km - like... 1 dps. Not including all the other factors.
A bit more info found here if the above didn't help
Fuel block colors? Missiles for Caldari T3?
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Alvatore DiMarco
Capricious Endeavours Ltd
3573
|
Posted - 2015.03.15 23:49:45 -
[33] - Quote
Last I heard anything about the matter, the use of Grid-Fu had been deemed an exploit by CCP. If you encounter it in the future and can supply reasonable evidence that your target is aware of and taking advantage of a manipulated grid, it should be reported.
Perhaps one day CCP will fix the grid so that it cannot be manipulated in this way, but today is not that day. |
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
1949
|
Posted - 2015.03.16 00:09:35 -
[34] - Quote
Alvatore DiMarco wrote:Last I heard anything about the matter, the use of Grid-Fu had been deemed an exploit by CCP. If you encounter it in the future and can supply reasonable evidence that your target is aware of and taking advantage of a manipulated grid, it should be reported.
Perhaps one day CCP will fix the grid so that it cannot be manipulated in this way, but today is not that day.
I believe it's more exactly grid boundary use? To bounce 100m back over a boundary to cause all locks to drop and escape, or lay a massive trap.
Not general grid fu to extend or shape a grid. |
Cardano Firesnake
Section XIII
Tau Ceti Federation
177
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Posted - 2015.03.16 11:48:04 -
[35] - Quote
I know the grid problems since a long time ago. It is not the first time It hapens to me.
But I still don't find it OK.
I don't mind how, but this should be fix.
And the fact is that neither me or my openent did this grid modification on purpose. I don't even understand what happened as I just put a bubble @ 100km from a gate and engaged there.
Posted - 2010.07.01 11:24:00 - [4]
Erase learning skills, remap all SP.
That's all.
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Caphriel Airuta
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
0
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Posted - 2015.03.16 12:22:40 -
[36] - Quote
Mournful Conciousness wrote:LT Alter wrote:Reina Xyaer wrote:What's to stop the "grid" from being the whole system? You lack imagination. Legacy code, hardware limitations, client information intake limitation... lots of other reason that I cannot think of because I am not a developer? That comment has completely shown your ineptitude, and ending it with, "You lack imagination." Makes you look the fool rather than him. Thank you for defending me. I appreciate it. If you look 2 comments below his, you'll see that I provided a complete answer (and a rebuttal of the accusation). The devs read these forums but they ignore people who regularly insult each other, so if we are looking for positive change, that's a counterproductive approach.
You're the hero this forum needs, but doesn't deserve. Would you say that increased server power and efficiency improvements could possibly allow for the fix you postulated with minimal lag at this stage? |
Mournful Conciousness
Embers Children
TOHA Conglomerate
864
|
Posted - 2015.03.16 18:14:40 -
[37] - Quote
Caphriel Airuta wrote:Mournful Conciousness wrote:LT Alter wrote:Reina Xyaer wrote:What's to stop the "grid" from being the whole system? You lack imagination. Legacy code, hardware limitations, client information intake limitation... lots of other reason that I cannot think of because I am not a developer? That comment has completely shown your ineptitude, and ending it with, "You lack imagination." Makes you look the fool rather than him. Thank you for defending me. I appreciate it. If you look 2 comments below his, you'll see that I provided a complete answer (and a rebuttal of the accusation). The devs read these forums but they ignore people who regularly insult each other, so if we are looking for positive change, that's a counterproductive approach. You're the hero this forum needs, but doesn't deserve. Would you say that increased server power and efficiency improvements could possibly allow for the fix you postulated with minimal lag at this stage?
The ability to merge two overlapping grids, or to allow grids (and target locks) at extreme range should have almost no impact on server load, for two reasons:
a) The grid merge is a once-only operation. In effect it would be transferring the contexts of both grids in a third new one and then destroying the two old ones. All players would experience some lag (similar to emerging from a gate) and that would be it. I suspect the vast majority of that pause would be the time it takes to communicate the new grid layout down to all interested clients, and for the client at the end of the slowest connection to confirm that the grid has been received (to keep it fair).
b) Server load is a function of the number of nearby objects being tracked, not their distances. Computing and communicating the co-ordinate set for three spaceships would take the same time whether they were 100km or 100,000 km apart. The nature of floating-point arithmetic is such that the computations take the same time but become less accurate as the scale of the numbers grow (but we're talking some very big numbers for that to begin to matter).
Of course there is a caveat:
If we were to allow grids to grow, and players had sufficient time, we'd also have to allow them to break up at some point - there's always going to be a limit as to how big they can reasonably be allowed to get, otherwise determined players could conceivably zoom off in different directions in overclocked frigates and spend a few weeks making a ridiculously large grid.
Server downtime might be a good time to detect these candidates and compute the breakoff points.
This would probably be a good project for a Summer Intern at CCP, if they have such things.
Embers Children is recruiting carefully selected pilots who like wormholes, green killboards and the sweet taste of tears. You can convo me in game or join the chat "TOHA Lounge".
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Reina Xyaer
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
60
|
Posted - 2015.03.17 00:18:02 -
[38] - Quote
LT Alter wrote:Reina Xyaer wrote:What's to stop the "grid" from being the whole system? You lack imagination. Legacy code, hardware limitations, client information intake limitation... lots of other reason that I cannot think of because I am not a developer? That comment has completely shown your ineptitude, and ending it with, "You lack imagination." Makes you look the fool rather than him.
Completely hollow arguments.
Legacy Code? Again... code can be updated. That is the EXACT definition of making a change to a game.
Hardware limitations? I doubt it. EVE servers running everything they currently do, but then they can't compute "object within X range? yes=ongrid, no=offgrid
Client information intake limitation? Seriously? Do you use made up things like that at work to impress your boss? "Well Sir, as you can see here by the synergetic emergent information protocol..." idiot. The EVE clients get sent the info for 1000vs1000 man fleet battles, and you think it would be impossible to send them the data from objects 1000km away instead of 400km away?
Completely shown my ineptitude, right. This comment completely shows your need to troll the forums and make things up to argue against ideas you don't like for no reason.
Me: "Remove (or make seamless) the grid because it's a silly mechanic that has no place in a 3D space sim."
You: "No that's stupid and you're stupid because that's impossible to do with EVE's current code (which I admittedly have no idea how it works because I'm 'not a developer')"
Don't go calling people "inept" if you're arguments are baseless and almost certainly wrong.
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Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
1951
|
Posted - 2015.03.17 00:25:05 -
[39] - Quote
Actually most of us do have a very good idea how EVE's current grid code works.
Because it works in a logical coherent fashion designed to prevent lag.
And your proposal to remove grids is terrible as it would mean vast amounts more lag.
Could grids be made to be able to merge. Now that is possible in theory, but it certainly isn't a summer intern project. I don't want some new programmer who doesn't care about their long term job hacking out some monkey code on a system which is utterly integral to the base gameplay of everyone no matter what activity they do.
Are the very few edge cases it's likely to deal with worth changing the grid code fundamentally for and the Dev hours involved in that project, most likely not. |
Reina Xyaer
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
61
|
Posted - 2015.03.17 00:48:01 -
[40] - Quote
Nevyn Auscent wrote:Actually most of us do have a very good idea how EVE's current grid code works.
Oh really buddy? Please explain. I'm honestly interested in hearing how you think EVE's code works.
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
Because it works in a logical coherent fashion designed to prevent lag.
And your proposal to remove grids is terrible as it would mean vast amounts more lag.
Oh really? Please explain... seriously, in depth. Tell me why it would mean vast amounts more lag. Utter hogwash.
I say: baseless claims.
You have no idea what you're talking about.
Neither do I, but at least I don't claim to. |
Lienzo
Amanuensis
51
|
Posted - 2015.03.17 04:39:13 -
[41] - Quote
I kinda liked how PS2's fog of war system worked. If you sat behind 200 of your allies, you wouldn't see any of the enemy. To do that, you actually had to skirt around to either the side of your own forces, or preferably behind the enemy front. It helped distinguish the marginally competent from the clueless.
EVE does rather benefit from the ability to position your ewar behind your main damage dealers though.
Any mechanic that rewards constant repositioning on the battlefield is good in my opinion.
I'd even accept unlimited locking range if a pre-requisite of that was the farther away something was, the longer it would take to lock, preferably on a non-linear curve. It would be kinda interesting if you had just two frigates on a grid, and because of that the grid naturally reached as far as 5000km. If inties can routinely do 5km/s, that's a couple minutes chase time, rather than the current fifty seconds. Imagine how massive the asteroid belts could be if you are there in just a tiny group.
It would be interesting if it was actually possible to be far enough away that the hud didn't even render, or to have a natural limit on the overview beyond that range. A ship that was actually just a tiny dot moving against the background might actually have a good chance of warping in on a particular roid to pounce on a target. |
Daide Vondrichnov
SnaiLs aNd FroGs
29
|
Posted - 2015.03.17 06:58:05 -
[42] - Quote
Reina Xyaer wrote:Paranoid Loyd wrote:Born 2008, 2700 kills, doesn't know about grid-fu.  His point is still extremely valid you troll Time to remove the "grid" from EVE.
They can't remove those problems, as the devs which have coded this system is gonne and nobody know how it works and are afraid of doing ****. |
Mournful Conciousness
Embers Children
TOHA Conglomerate
865
|
Posted - 2015.03.17 07:11:59 -
[43] - Quote
Reina Xyaer wrote:Nevyn Auscent wrote:Actually most of us do have a very good idea how EVE's current grid code works.
Oh really buddy? Please explain. I'm honestly interested in hearing how you think EVE's code works. Nevyn Auscent wrote:
Because it works in a logical coherent fashion designed to prevent lag.
And your proposal to remove grids is terrible as it would mean vast amounts more lag.
Oh really? Please explain... seriously, in depth. Tell me why it would mean vast amounts more lag. Utter hogwash. I say: baseless claims. You have no idea what you're talking about. Neither do I, but at least I don't claim to.
His claims are expressed in terse terms but they are not baseless. Here's a slightly more verbose treatment:
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=5578438#post5578438
Embers Children is recruiting carefully selected pilots who like wormholes, green killboards and the sweet taste of tears. You can convo me in game or join the chat "TOHA Lounge".
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Reina Xyaer
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
62
|
Posted - 2015.03.17 14:19:45 -
[44] - Quote
Mournful Conciousness wrote:Reina Xyaer wrote:Nevyn Auscent wrote:Actually most of us do have a very good idea how EVE's current grid code works.
Oh really buddy? Please explain. I'm honestly interested in hearing how you think EVE's code works. Nevyn Auscent wrote:
Because it works in a logical coherent fashion designed to prevent lag.
And your proposal to remove grids is terrible as it would mean vast amounts more lag.
Oh really? Please explain... seriously, in depth. Tell me why it would mean vast amounts more lag. Utter hogwash. I say: baseless claims. You have no idea what you're talking about. Neither do I, but at least I don't claim to. His claims are expressed in terse terms but they are not baseless. Here's a slightly more verbose treatment: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=5578438#post5578438
I already read that, and it doesn't convince me for a second that the code can't be changed to handle grids differently.
All we're asking for here... is that when someone flies to the "edge" of the grid, that edge is moved so that there are no invisible walls in space.
Give every ship a "view distance", and anything within that distance is shown on the overview. (ships and objects, of course celestials are always on overview).
Some of you say this can't be done "because of grids", well change the grid system. How or why would you argue against this?
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Mournful Conciousness
Embers Children
TOHA Conglomerate
865
|
Posted - 2015.03.17 14:35:46 -
[45] - Quote
No-one is arguing that what you want is a bad idea. It's obviously a good idea.
Grids already do become very large when they need to, but I think everyone is is agreement that it could be done in a more pleasing way.
Certainly, tactical gameplay would improve if we could target lock, approach etc from beyond 250km.
What I was hoping to point out was the need for a grid in some form for reasons of bandwidth and preventing redundant computation that certainly would hamper people's enjoyment if there were no grids. This was in response to someone saying "why not put everything in the system into one grid?", which is admittedly tangential to the central point of the OP.
Embers Children is recruiting carefully selected pilots who like wormholes, green killboards and the sweet taste of tears. You can convo me in game or join the chat "TOHA Lounge".
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