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Cardano Firesnake Section XIII Tau Ceti Federation 176	Posted - 2015.03.13 15:40:26 - [1] - Quote I was fighting when my ennemy disapeared. Then he came back again. I was just at 5km of the end of the grid. I don't know why the grid work like that but it is really awful. Isn't it possible to change that now? The grid couldn't simply be 500km around each ship? Posted - 2010.07.01 11:24:00 - [4] Erase learning skills, remap all SP. That's all.
Paranoid Loyd 4145	Posted - 2015.03.13 15:44:20 - [2] - Quote Born 2008, 2700 kills, doesn't know about grid-fu. "Gankers are just other players, not supernatural monsters who will get you if you don't follow some arbitrary superstition. Haul responsibly and without irrational fear." Masao Kurata Fix the Prospect!!!
Reina Xyaer Native Freshfood Minmatar Republic 41	Posted - 2015.03.13 16:00:25 - [3] - Quote Paranoid Loyd wrote: Born 2008, 2700 kills, doesn't know about grid-fu. His point is still extremely valid you troll Time to remove the "grid" from EVE.
Agondray Avenger Mercenaries VOID Intergalactic Forces 234	Posted - 2015.03.13 16:05:44 - [4] - Quote Reina Xyaer wrote: Paranoid Loyd wrote: Born 2008, 2700 kills, doesn't know about grid-fu. His point is still extremely valid you troll Time to remove the "grid" from EVE. and with the capability to snipe even longer ranges ranges because my tempest is stuck at 249.99kms for range no matter how many sensor boosters are on it "Sarcasm is the Recourse of a weak mind." -Dr. Smith
Mournful Conciousness Embers Children TOHA Conglomerate 844	Posted - 2015.03.13 16:07:38 - [5] - Quote As a software developer, if I was asked to remove the localisation of object management in a massively multiplayer distributed system (a.k.a. the grid) I would struggle to imagine how I was going to track the millions of individual objects in eve space in anything like real time. If I were asked to improve the grid proximity and merging code... that would be simple. Embers Children is recruiting carefully selected pilots who like wormholes, green killboards and the sweet taste of tears. You can convo me in game or join the chat "TOHA Lounge".
Paranoid Loyd 4146	Posted - 2015.03.13 16:16:22 - [6] - Quote Reina Xyaer wrote: Paranoid Loyd wrote: Born 2008, 2700 kills, doesn't know about grid-fu. His point is still extremely valid you troll Time to remove the "grid" from EVE. Just because you don't agree with me doesn't mean I'm a troll. If you know anything about how idiotic saying "time to remove the grid" is you would be perceived as the troll. But I'm gonna go with you don't. "Gankers are just other players, not supernatural monsters who will get you if you don't follow some arbitrary superstition. Haul responsibly and without irrational fear." Masao Kurata Fix the Prospect!!!
xttz GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation 510	Posted - 2015.03.13 16:19:47 - [7] - Quote Reina Xyaer wrote: Paranoid Loyd wrote: Born 2008, 2700 kills, doesn't know about grid-fu. His point is still extremely valid you troll Time to remove the "grid" from EVE. Remove all grids, walk in stations forever! Wait, why won't this door open...?
Reina Xyaer Native Freshfood Minmatar Republic 42	Posted - 2015.03.13 16:36:07 - [8] - Quote Paranoid Loyd wrote: Reina Xyaer wrote: Paranoid Loyd wrote: Born 2008, 2700 kills, doesn't know about grid-fu. His point is still extremely valid you troll Time to remove the "grid" from EVE. Just because you don't agree with me doesn't mean I'm a troll. If you know anything about how idiotic saying "time to remove the grid" is you would be perceived as the troll. But I'm gonna go with you don't. You're not a troll because I disagree, you're a troll because your comment is just trying to be snarky and condescending, instead of actually responding to the concept. It's not idiotic, it's what we should be striving for. Quote: and with the capability to snipe even longer ranges ranges because my tempest is stuck at 249.99kms for range no matter how many sensor boosters are on it. but in reality the grid being centered around each ship isn't feasible as you would have lots of grids overlap on things like undocks and massive fights. im sure that would cause a massive server problem. in reality all games have a grid because you can only see something for so far rather its people on a land based mmorpg or a ship in space Quote: As a software developer, if I was asked to remove the localisation of object management in a massively multiplayer distributed system (a.k.a. the grid) I would struggle to imagine how I was going to track the millions of individual objects in eve space in anything like real time. If I were asked to improve the grid proximity and merging code... that would be simple. What's to stop the "grid" from being the whole system? You lack imagination.
Paranoid Loyd 4146	Posted - 2015.03.13 16:42:15 - [9] - Quote You lack understanding of bandwidth and processing power. "Gankers are just other players, not supernatural monsters who will get you if you don't follow some arbitrary superstition. Haul responsibly and without irrational fear." Masao Kurata Fix the Prospect!!!
Reina Xyaer Native Freshfood Minmatar Republic 43	Posted - 2015.03.13 17:05:22 - [10] - Quote Paranoid Loyd wrote: Reina Xyaer wrote: You lack imagination. You lack understanding of bandwidth and processing power. Not to mention legacy code. I must, because I fail to see how just changing the game to X,Y coordinates over the entire system would be any harder than having the system divided up into "grids". Currently, the server still records where you are in system. All the grid does is determine if you can see something on your overview. Why can we not just do away with the grids and have each ship have a max "view distance" that lets them either see something a certain distance away, or not see it. "Legacy code"... yes, the code that I'm suggesting be CHANGED. "Omg that code can't be changed because it is already the way it is" - You
Mournful Conciousness Embers Children TOHA Conglomerate 845	Posted - 2015.03.13 17:11:38 - [11] - Quote Reina Xyaer wrote: What's to stop the "grid" from being the whole system? You lack imagination. I have to admit that in my 30-year career as a software developer you are the first person to accuse me of "lacking imagination". I'm usually accused of "trying to push the boundaries of computing too far", and the high points of that career have been proving these naysayers wrong. However, to answer the specific question. Every single object you see (and don't see) in space in an eve system has to be tracked. Every asteroid, jet can, wreck, drone, missile group, smart bomb... you get the picture. If it has the remotest chance of interacting with another object then this relationship must be tested for. In order to reduce the number of interactions checked (e.g. collisions) the logical thing to do is to reduce the number of tests that must be performed. By logically placing each object in its own little sphere of influence (grid) it means that the server code is freed from the burden of dynamically determining which interactions have occurred, which ones may occur and which ones never will. If all objects were on one mega-grid then (for example) every ship would need to be tested for collision against every other, every frame. The vast majority of these collision checks would be redundant. In addition, the position, orientation, velocity etc of every single ship would need to be communicated to your client, every tick. And then your client would need to figure out which ships to show you. It could discount (say) every ship that was beyond the horizon of your vision, but it would have to perform a calculation (involving taking the square root of squares) every frame refresh. All of this unnecessary work can be completely eliminated by splitting up the system into 'volumes of interaction' (grids) and each grid can then be computed separately (and in parallel!). Only information about items in your grid need be communicated to your client - saving bandwidth and preventing lag, whinging and crying players. The only complication with this system is when two adjacent grids grow to the point where events in one could influence events in another (smart bombs, ships moving from one to the other, etc). Relative positions of grids is simply a matter of computing the intersection of bounding spheres (simple maths). When two grids collide the contents of both could be dumped into a new bigger grid. There would be a moment of lag while it all figured itself out, but not too big a deal - it only happens rarely. So rarely in fact that I suspect the dev team figure that it's a problem that does not need a solution. Embers Children is recruiting carefully selected pilots who like wormholes, green killboards and the sweet taste of tears. You can convo me in game or join the chat "TOHA Lounge".
Paranoid Loyd 4148	Posted - 2015.03.13 17:15:58 - [12] - Quote Reina Xyaer wrote: "Omg that code can't be changed because it is already the way it is" - You I never said this, I am simply pointing out you are arguing it is a simple change when the reality it is far from that. "Gankers are just other players, not supernatural monsters who will get you if you don't follow some arbitrary superstition. Haul responsibly and without irrational fear." Masao Kurata Fix the Prospect!!!
Bronson Hughes The Knights of the Blessed Mother of Acceleration 1490	Posted - 2015.03.13 17:51:45 - [13] - Quote Reina Xyaer wrote: What's to stop the "grid" from being the whole system? You lack imagination. Imagine, if you will, any large scale battle in sov nullsec where the grid slows to a grinding halt under heavy TiDi. Now, imagine that the grid was the entire system and the server had to deal with every ship, collider, missile, NPC, POS shield, smartbomb, stealth bomber bomb in that system at the same time. If the existing hardware and network bandwidth can't handle packed grids, how precisely do you propose that they handle entire systems without subdividing them into unique grids? I will concede that "grid-fu" is a thing, and that it could likely be reduced by using more creative grid boundary definitions, but doing away with grids entirely is simply not realistic given current hardware and bandwidth limitations. My Many Misadventures Reading Comprehension: so important it deserves it's own skillbook. I seek to create content, not become content.
Colette Kassia Kassia Industrial Supply 96	Posted - 2015.03.13 17:52:43 - [14] - Quote I think that some kind of "working grid" will always exist under the hood. What we want is to not see any evidence of its existence. This mean identifying the maximum range that two ships can be relevant to each other and growing the grid as needed. It also means checking if two nearby grids (in global coordinate-space terms) are starting to approach each other and, if needed, merging them. You just only inform the client about things that are within their visual range.
Reina Xyaer Native Freshfood Minmatar Republic 43	Posted - 2015.03.13 17:59:00 - [15] - Quote Colette Kassia wrote: I think that some kind of "working grid" will always exist under the hood. What we want is to not see any evidence of its existence. This mean identifying the maximum range that two ships can be relevant to each other and growing the grid as needed. It also means checking if two nearby grids (in global coordinate-space terms) are starting to approach each other and, if needed, merging them. You just only inform the client about things that are within their visual range. This.
Lienzo Amanuensis 50	Posted - 2015.03.13 18:27:30 - [16] - Quote I like having a fog of war. If the grid was restricted to a certain number of objects, then you could still have a massive fleet fight, but you would all be fighting different groups of targets unless you actually reposition yourself across the field. If you were in an anomaly, or a vast belt, it would shrink down the field of awareness of both hunter and hunted. How to allow the player to see both the stars and have a limited draw range of objects is an aesthetically challenging task. Other games can get away with using the landscape. Perhaps EVE could get away with having a more limited HUD overlay range, and then have objects continually shrink over distance until the single point winks out of the differentiable resolution limit of our sensors.
Lugh Crow-Slave 868	Posted - 2015.03.13 19:03:43 - [17] - Quote i feel the current grid system is fine(not perfict but about as good as they can get with current tech) however i would like the max targeting range to lose its hard cap so i can lock past 250km Fuel block colors? Missiles for Caldari T3?
Kabark Schilden 47	Posted - 2015.03.13 21:26:51 - [18] - Quote Agondray wrote: Reina Xyaer wrote: Paranoid Loyd wrote: Born 2008, 2700 kills, doesn't know about grid-fu. His point is still extremely valid you troll Time to remove the "grid" from EVE. and with the capability to snipe even longer ranges ranges because my tempest is stuck at 249.99kms for range no matter how many sensor boosters are on it. but in reality the grid being centered around each ship isn't feasible as you would have lots of grids overlap on things like undocks and massive fights. im sure that would cause a massive server problem. in reality all games have a grid because you can only see something for so far rather its people on a land based mmorpg or a ship in space I'm just here to support expanding the grid. I love my Rokh. I would love my Rokh even more if I could snipe from 250km to 500km. 1000km grid. Oh please give me a max range of 500km! Oh the sniping potential!
Madd Adda 36	Posted - 2015.03.13 22:16:22 - [19] - Quote I think they limited it partly due to the what the server can handle, but there is the balance issue too. there is what people say above me saying "i want to snipe from 250km+" which is scary enough as is. Carebear extraordinaire
Kabark Schilden 47	Posted - 2015.03.14 00:46:54 - [20] - Quote Madd Adda wrote: I think they limited it partly due to the what the server can handle, but there is the balance issue too. there is what people say above me saying "i want to snipe from 250km+" which is scary enough as is. I can effectively apply around 300 dps at 250km which is good for rail guns at that distance. I barely have the tracking to hit a cruiser at transverse of 500m/s which is about the limit for rail gun at that range. At 500km you should be able to apply around 100 dps on a battleship sized target moving. Anything smaller and you just couldn't hit. I don't think there is any balance issue with extending the range, only a programming issue.
Lugh Crow-Slave 869	Posted - 2015.03.14 01:20:49 - [21] - Quote Kabark wrote: Agondray wrote: Reina Xyaer wrote: Paranoid Loyd wrote: Born 2008, 2700 kills, doesn't know about grid-fu. His point is still extremely valid you troll Time to remove the "grid" from EVE. and with the capability to snipe even longer ranges ranges because my tempest is stuck at 249.99kms for range no matter how many sensor boosters are on it. but in reality the grid being centered around each ship isn't feasible as you would have lots of grids overlap on things like undocks and massive fights. im sure that would cause a massive server problem. in reality all games have a grid because you can only see something for so far rather its people on a land based mmorpg or a ship in space I'm just here to support expanding the grid. I love my Rokh. I would love my Rokh even more if I could snipe from 250km to 500km. 1000km grid. Oh please give me a max range of 500km! Oh the sniping potential! this has nothing to do with the current grid its a hard lock limit you can get grids out over 2000km Fuel block colors? Missiles for Caldari T3?
Gaan Cathal Angry Mustellid The Periphery 39	Posted - 2015.03.14 02:05:34 - [22] - Quote Kabark wrote: Madd Adda wrote: I think they limited it partly due to the what the server can handle, but there is the balance issue too. there is what people say above me saying "i want to snipe from 250km+" which is scary enough as is. I can effectively apply around 300 dps at 250km which is good for rail guns at that distance. I barely have the tracking to hit a cruiser at transverse of 500m/s which is about the limit for rail gun at that range. At 500km you should be able to apply around 100 dps on a battleship sized target moving. Anything smaller and you just couldn't hit. I don't think there is any balance issue with extending the range, only a programming issue. This is completely the reverse of the actual mechanics. The further an object of a given velocity the lower it's transverse velocity and ergo the easier it is to track.
Kabark Schilden 47	Posted - 2015.03.14 03:13:36 - [23] - Quote Gaan Cathal wrote: Kabark wrote: Madd Adda wrote: I think they limited it partly due to the what the server can handle, but there is the balance issue too. there is what people say above me saying "i want to snipe from 250km+" which is scary enough as is. I can effectively apply around 300 dps at 250km which is good for rail guns at that distance. I barely have the tracking to hit a cruiser at transverse of 500m/s which is about the limit for rail gun at that range. At 500km you should be able to apply around 100 dps on a battleship sized target moving. Anything smaller and you just couldn't hit. I don't think there is any balance issue with extending the range, only a programming issue. This is completely the reverse of the actual mechanics. The further an object of a given velocity the lower it's transverse velocity and ergo the easier it is to track. Explain that to my tracking computers. 247km optimal, can hit a cruiser moving at 500m/s at 200km but miss half the shots same senario at 250km.
Colette Kassia Kassia Industrial Supply 97	Posted - 2015.03.14 05:18:00 - [24] - Quote I've noticed that some posters are talking about the 'common simulation volume' and others about 'visual range'. Currently these are synonymous. You can see anything (no cloaked) that is in the same "room' as you, regardless of distance. The talk of removing grids in the thread is really just a suggestion to decouple the two. I support that idea. The maximum distance that you can detect another ship and see them on Overview should be determined by your ships sensor strength (or resolution) and the signature size of the other ship. You should be able to detect a titan from further out than a frigate. And it's fine if some ships can see an object from greater distances than others. It makes some sense that the placement of jet cans, or other objects, may affect the size of the simulation volume. But this increasing your visual range just feels like something in the game design is broken. The technical details of how the server creates the illusion that is simulating a whole solar-system should be totally transparent to the players; and poking at it should not be a component of battle strategy. (This is the vision I had in my mind when I wrote my previous post).
Gaan Cathal Angry Mustellid The Periphery 41	Posted - 2015.03.14 12:50:18 - [25] - Quote Kabark wrote: Explain that to my tracking computers. 247km optimal, can hit a cruiser moving at 500m/s at 200km but miss half the shots same senario at 250km. If you've got an optimal of 247km then that doesn't surprise me, a target at 250km is in falloff and if you don't have much falloff (say, railguns) then it can have a dramatic effect very quickly. That will be what's increasing your miss rate.
Lugh Crow-Slave 869	Posted - 2015.03.14 13:06:33 - [26] - Quote Gaan Cathal wrote: Kabark wrote: Madd Adda wrote: I think they limited it partly due to the what the server can handle, but there is the balance issue too. there is what people say above me saying "i want to snipe from 250km+" which is scary enough as is. I can effectively apply around 300 dps at 250km which is good for rail guns at that distance. I barely have the tracking to hit a cruiser at transverse of 500m/s which is about the limit for rail gun at that range. At 500km you should be able to apply around 100 dps on a battleship sized target moving. Anything smaller and you just couldn't hit. I don't think there is any balance issue with extending the range, only a programming issue. This is completely the reverse of the actual mechanics. The further an object of a given velocity the lower it's transverse velocity and ergo the easier it is to track. not once you realize you are dealing with fall off Fuel block colors? Missiles for Caldari T3?
Promiscuous Medusa Republic Military School Minmatar Republic 2	Posted - 2015.03.14 13:31:47 - [27] - Quote 250km, 500km, its all the same when autoprobing lands tackle on you. Why 500 anyway? Is 200 not safe enough? :/
Kabark Schilden 47	Posted - 2015.03.14 17:08:14 - [28] - Quote Promiscuous Medusa wrote: 250km, 500km, its all the same when autoprobing lands tackle on you. Why 500 anyway? Is 200 not safe enough? :/ For the lulz. I've lost a couple snipers to probes but it is tremendous fun to sit 200 off gate and a frig jumps in and doesn't warp off right away. Then realizes he just got locked and poped. But can someone give me a run down on how optimal and falloff work together? Or link the page that explains it. I still don't have a full understanding on how the targeting system works.
LT Alter Dodixie Undock Is Camped 148	Posted - 2015.03.14 17:47:51 - [29] - Quote Reina Xyaer wrote: What's to stop the "grid" from being the whole system? You lack imagination. Legacy code, hardware limitations, client information intake limitation... lots of other reason that I cannot think of because I am not a developer? That comment has completely shown your ineptitude, and ending it with, "You lack imagination." Makes you look the fool rather than him.
Mournful Conciousness Embers Children TOHA Conglomerate 858	Posted - 2015.03.14 18:55:57 - [30] - Quote LT Alter wrote: Reina Xyaer wrote: What's to stop the "grid" from being the whole system? You lack imagination. Legacy code, hardware limitations, client information intake limitation... lots of other reason that I cannot think of because I am not a developer? That comment has completely shown your ineptitude, and ending it with, "You lack imagination." Makes you look the fool rather than him. Thank you for defending me. I appreciate it. If you look 2 comments below his, you'll see that I provided a complete answer (and a rebuttal of the accusation). The devs read these forums but they ignore people who regularly insult each other, so if we are looking for positive change, that's a counterproductive approach. Embers Children is recruiting carefully selected pilots who like wormholes, green killboards and the sweet taste of tears. You can convo me in game or join the chat "TOHA Lounge".

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