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Tibullus
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Posted - 2006.10.17 13:58:00 -
[1]
Edited by: Tibullus on 17/10/2006 14:04:20 Edited by: Tibullus on 17/10/2006 14:02:52 EDIT 1: Made important details bold. Forgot to add the DPS of the Hammerhead IIs to the Tanked Thorax. Also note, these set-ups was made with AWU 3.
I'm having second thoughts with the whole tanking vs. ganking debate, and I can't decide which is more effective. So as a vehicle for debate, critique these two set-ups and hypothesize which one would win.
Anyone that dares mention the platerax will be podded. That set-up is a mediocre abomination at best, and I have never struggled to destroy them with my tanked Rax.
GANK RAX
Thorax
Heavy Neutron Blaster II [74xVoid M] Heavy Neutron Blaster II [74xVoid M] Heavy Neutron Blaster II [74xVoid M] Heavy Neutron Blaster II [74xVoid M] Heavy Neutron Blaster II [74xVoid M]
10MN MicroWarpdrive II Fleeting Warp Scrambler I X5 Prototype I Engine Enervator
Magnetic Field Stabilizer II Magnetic Field Stabilizer II Magnetic Field Stabilizer II Reactor Control Unit II Internal Force Field Array I
Hammerhead II Hammerhead II Hammerhead II Hammerhead II Hammerhead II
1340 shield, 3.94/s, E/T/K/Ex=11/29/46/64 1641 armor, E/T/K/Ex=65/44/44/22 1375.0 cap, +11.43/s, -25.713/s 1421.4705882352941 m/s 439.1 DPS
TANKED THORAX
Thorax
Small 'Knave' I Energy Drain Heavy Electron Blaster II [200xVoid M] Heavy Electron Blaster II [200xVoid M] Heavy Electron Blaster II [200xVoid M] Heavy Electron Blaster II [200xVoid M]
10MN MicroWarpdrive I Warp Disruptor I Medium Capacitor Booster I [1xCap Booster 800]
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II Internal Force Field Array I Medium 'Accommodation' Vestment Reconstructer I Medium 'Accommodation' Vestment Reconstructer I
Hammerhead II Hammerhead II Hammerhead II Hammerhead II Hammerhead II
1340 shield, 3.94/s, E/T/K/Ex=11/29/46/64 1641 armor, E/T/K/Ex=78/65/65/52 1375.0 cap, +11.43/s, -55.009/s 1311.8823529411764 m/s 244.778DPS
So. Which do you think would win? |
inSpirAcy
The Solopwnmobiles
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Posted - 2006.10.17 14:04:00 -
[2]
I haven't read your post in detail, but base your tanked ship around a 1600mm plate. Dual MAR, even with a DC, won't have time to rep a useful amount of armor under that much DPS.
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Shintoko Akahoshi
Omerta Syndicate
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Posted - 2006.10.17 14:09:00 -
[3]
I'm personally a believer in the gank setup, and your dps for the rax is certainly off. I fit a similar gank setup, though with a mix of electron II and ion II to allow me to fit a rep instead of the RCU, and I still get about 500 dps without the drones.
Vote Shin, for great cocktail hours. |
Tibullus
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Posted - 2006.10.17 14:10:00 -
[4]
Originally by: inSpirAcy I haven't read your post in detail, but base your tanked ship around a 1600mm plate. Dual MAR, even with a DC, won't have time to rep a useful amount of armor under that much DPS.
I will respond with a quote from my OP
Originally by: Tibullus Anyone that dares mention the platerax will be podded. That set-up is a mediocre abomination at best, and I have never struggled to destroy them with my tanked Rax.
The platerax makes a similar sacrifice to its DPS as the tankrax, as a result a dual-rep tanked rax can beat a platerax easily, since it can almost continually tank the reduced dps from a platerax, whilst the platerax eventually dies to the tanked rax, unless the platerax cunningly exploits the tankedrax lack of webber.
But I can see your point.
Tankrax > Platerax
But
Platerax > Gankrax? Gankrax > Tankrax?
Something I didn't consider. Could it be a rock/scissors/paper situation? |
inSpirAcy
The Solopwnmobiles
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Posted - 2006.10.17 14:12:00 -
[5]
I'm not going to run the figures here (I did it in a post a couple months ago), but SAR + 1600mm platerax (with Heavy Electron II) absorbs more damage than MAR + 800mm.
And with no plate at all, my intuition says it still absorbs more damage than dual MAR + DC.
Don't get too caught in the belief that 1600mm 'rax is only possible with small blasters. That's a newbie mistake.
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Tibullus
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Posted - 2006.10.17 14:12:00 -
[6]
Originally by: inSpirAcy Edited by: inSpirAcy on 17/10/2006 14:06:52 Edit: Your numbers are well off, too. A HN Thorax with three damage mods and Hammerheads can push 700 DPS, unless these are meant to be post-tank figures?
Edit 2: Heavy Electron + 1600mm 'rax is a valid setup. Of course the small blaster setup is pointless.
My numbers are not post-tank figures. It's a pity they're off, because I used quick-fit. I'll double-check them. |
Verus Potestas
Caldari Fiat Mort
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Posted - 2006.10.17 14:19:00 -
[7]
I could kill both with a balanced setup So there.
RAWR!111 Sig Hijackz0r!!11 - Immy |
inSpirAcy
The Solopwnmobiles
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Posted - 2006.10.17 14:24:00 -
[8]
Edited by: inSpirAcy on 17/10/2006 14:25:44 What the hell, I'm bored. Let's compare SAR + 1600mm with dual MAR + DC, assume roughly even resistances across armor (and structure on the latter). Let's put it up against a full gank rax, 700 raw DPS, let's call it 350 resisted.
Edit: wait a minute, this is ballsed.
Plate > rep in short, high DPS fights.
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wierchas noobhunter
Caldari Praxiteles Inc.
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Posted - 2006.10.17 14:26:00 -
[9]
Originally by: inSpirAcy Edited by: inSpirAcy on 17/10/2006 14:06:52
I haven't read your post in detail, but base your tanked ship around a 1600mm plate. Dual MAR, even with a DC, won't have time to rep a useful amount of armor under that much DPS.
Edit: Your numbers are well off, too. A HN Thorax with three damage mods and Hammerheads can push 700 DPS, unless these are meant to be post-tank figures?
Edit 2: Heavy Electron + 1600mm 'rax is a valid setup. Of course the small blaster setup is pointless.
i think with best dmg inplant and wery leet mag field stabs thorax goes way over 800 dps not sure tbh need to calculate
join me be cool |
Tibullus
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Posted - 2006.10.17 14:27:00 -
[10]
Edited by: Tibullus on 17/10/2006 14:29:16 EDIT 1: Added content
Originally by: inSpirAcy
And with no plate at all, my intuition says it still absorbs more damage than dual MAR + DC.
Don't get too caught in the belief that 1600mm 'rax is only possible with small blasters. That's a newbie mistake.
Trust me, I'm not making that mistake. I used to fly a platerax pre-RMR. I know that plateraxes can now pack Heavy Electron IIs.
You might be right.
I'll run the numbers for you later on today.
In the meantime could somebody post a cookie-cutter Tech 2 Medium Blaster Platerax set-up so I can run the numbers on that too. |
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inSpirAcy
The Solopwnmobiles
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Posted - 2006.10.17 14:36:00 -
[11]
Use Naughty Boy's spreadsheet for DPS calculations. Quickfit is well known for ballsing up DPS computations.
(it even gave me a negative DPS Raven once )
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Loka
Gallente adeptus gattacus Lotka Volterra
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Posted - 2006.10.17 14:46:00 -
[12]
I know the veterans will hate me, but hey i love been hated. Here a setup you should try.
Thorax - THE DPS Monster
5x Heavy Electron Blaster II [200xVoid M]
Y-T8 Overcharged Hydrocarbon I Microwarpdrive Fleeting Progressive Warp Scrambler I Fleeting Propulsion Inhibitor I
Reactor Control Unit II 1600mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I Small Armor Repairer II 2x Magnetic Field Stabilizer II
5x Med II Drones
5841 armor, E/T/K/Ex=60/35/35/10 540.8 DPS with Drones
What did i win? _________________________ Noob In Action - [NIA]
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Toaster Oven
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Posted - 2006.10.17 15:14:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Tibullus I'm having second thoughts with the whole tanking vs. ganking debate, and I can't decide which is more effective. So as a vehicle for debate, critique these two set-ups and hypothesize which one would win.
Gank Rax 4tw. Because who in their right mind fits 40M isk worth of tanking modules on a T1 cruiser? FFS fit that **** on a BS or something with a bit more survivability!
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Durham Elysion
The Taining corp Knights Of the Southerncross
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Posted - 2006.10.17 15:33:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Loka Edited by: Loka on 17/10/2006 14:47:38
E/T/K/Ex=60/35/35/10
10% Resistance to explosive damage? I present to you; The autocannon!
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Shintoko Akahoshi
Omerta Syndicate
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Posted - 2006.10.17 15:45:00 -
[15]
Well, then you need to get into the whole "gank electron II + 1600mm plate rax versus tanked autocannon Rupture with gyro II's" debate, which prolly boils down to tactics more than anything else.
Vote Shin, for great cocktail hours. |
Loka
Gallente adeptus gattacus Lotka Volterra
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Posted - 2006.10.18 08:19:00 -
[16]
Edited by: Loka on 18/10/2006 08:22:13 Edited by: Loka on 18/10/2006 08:20:59 I havent said that my setup is the omfgBBQ setup for any encounter. I just use my math and my expirience to judge whats best in most situations, not all.
Armor Ges = DPS0 * (1 - Resi) * T
T = Time until Armor is breached DPS0 = RAW DPS Resi = avarage resistances against your DMG type. Example: 60% = 0.6 = Resi
I didnt include the repairer into this calculations. What i search for is the rawdmg a ship can take. Because we searching for the rawDMG which such a ship could absorb we set T = 1.
Armor Ges = DPS0 * (1 - Resi) DPS0 = ArmorGes / (1-Resi)
DPS0 is not anymore the Damage Per Second, but the raw DMG needed to kill the Armor in one salvo.
The raw DMG my Armor can take, Expl only -> 6490
Quote: 1641 armor, E/T/K/Ex=65/44/44/22
against Explosve only -> 2930,357143
Quote: 1641 armor, E/T/K/Ex=78/65/65/52
against Explosve only -> 4688,571429
Besides that my thorax not only has almost 2k more armor, than any of the Tanksetups above and can absorb more DMG, but also i have almost same DPS as his best DMG setup with double his armor.
I would imagine that still my setup would perform better against my strongest encounter, than their and even much better against non Explosive using enemys.
Yes his 2nd setup includes 2 med Accos and mine only 1 smal T2 Repper, which could depending on the length of the fight give him roughly same armor, but for sure not more than mine. Also with only 300dps, his fights will last longer and mabye he even wont be able to kill several tanked enemys at all.
I have lost so many thoraxes and killed so many enemys in my Thorax, that i can say for me, that Plates are the best way to improve the overall combatability of a Cruiser sized ship.
Iam not here to convince you, just to suggest setups. Its up to you to choose your best setups. _________________________ Noob In Action - [NIA]
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Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2006.10.18 09:53:00 -
[17]
Meh, and I thought this will be a mathematical exercise about what's more useful (gank or tank), and when (rather said, in which situations). I was expecting setups mentioned mostly by DPS, RPS and HP/resists (and not necessarily full setups), then RPS/DPS ratios, survival/destruction times, calculations for 1vs1 and then 2vs2 and so on. Oh well... __ Always question everything. Including yourself. |
Simariliia
Die Gestrandeten
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Posted - 2006.10.18 12:02:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Loka Edited by: Loka on 17/10/2006 14:47:38 I know the veterans will hate me, but hey i love been hated. Here a setup you should try.
Thorax - THE DPS Monster
5x Heavy Electron Blaster II [200xVoid M]
Y-T8 Overcharged Hydrocarbon I Microwarpdrive Fleeting Progressive Warp Scrambler I Fleeting Propulsion Inhibitor I
Reactor Control Unit II 1600mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I Small Armor Repairer II 2x Magnetic Field Stabilizer II
5x Med II Drones
5841 armor, E/T/K/Ex=60/35/35/10 540.8 DPS with Drones
What did i win? I know my setups allways sexy, so go away bother someone else.
gonna test it out...my problem isnt usally the tank..but killig g the enemey before he sux me out of cap..so Im unable to kill him/do anything at all. so ofteen I have to not run the med t2 repper at all..cause I need all the cap i got to be able to fire the guns as long as I can.
just think about ure setup..why not have a med repper in ure cargohold to..refit/repp, and use a nano apd t2 or dmg control in that slot...1 small t2 repp isnt gonna make u surivie for muchlonger than a nano adpt t2 would do...higing ure res on that beefy plate. -------------------------------
Norwegian Bastard! (-ASS-)
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Loka
Gallente adeptus gattacus Lotka Volterra
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Posted - 2006.10.18 12:58:00 -
[19]
Originally by: Simariliia just think about ure setup..why not have a med repper in ure cargohold to..refit/repp, and use a nano apd t2 or dmg control in that slot...1 small t2 repp isnt gonna make u surivie for muchlonger than a nano adpt t2 would do...higing ure res on that beefy plate.
Valide point. I just not doing lot of Empire Wars recently. Most time iam in 0.0 fighting. So i end up miles away from a station i could even dock. Or iam in smaller gangs searching for ganks. Warping in, kill a target and retreat is a very often used tactic.
Ofc if you have a wingmane with remote repper or repair drones, you can switch your repairer. I just try not to depend on others too much. ;) _________________________ Noob In Action - [NIA]
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Nicocat
Caldari New Age Solutions
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Posted - 2006.10.18 15:43:00 -
[20]
Originally by: Loka Edited by: Loka on 17/10/2006 14:47:38 I know the veterans will hate me, but hey i love been hated. Here a setup you should try.
Thorax - THE DPS Monster
5x Heavy Electron Blaster II [200xVoid M]
Y-T8 Overcharged Hydrocarbon I Microwarpdrive Fleeting Progressive Warp Scrambler I Fleeting Propulsion Inhibitor I
Reactor Control Unit II 1600mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I Small Armor Repairer II 2x Magnetic Field Stabilizer II
5x Med II Drones
5841 armor, E/T/K/Ex=60/35/35/10 540.8 DPS with Drones
What did i win? I know my setups allways sexy, so go away bother someone else.
I wonder if a duel against this could be won in my ruppy. Considerably lighter tank and, obviously, lower DPS with T1 autos, but it comes with nos specifically to fight Gallente ships. It would be an interesting challenge to see if it would stop the shooty quickly enough. ---------------------------- Remember, killing a Goon isn't murder. They don't have souls. |
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