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Kaarous Aldurald
Glorious Revolutionary Armed Forces of Highsec
CODE.
12180
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Posted - 2015.03.20 02:01:01 -
[31] - Quote
Rowells wrote:the server recognizes ships only as spheres with mass, agility, and a velocity (including direction). It doesn't matter which direction the ship model is facing if it is at 0m/s. If you are movin at any velocity counter to your warp direction, this increases the time since it has to move to proper angle.
For example:
My rifter is standing still facing the opposite direction for warp. It has the exact same align time as a rifter facing the proper direction.
If my rifter is moving at any velocity away from the warp angle, the time to warp increases.
This is completely correct.
I will add that it is entirely possible to have ships entering warp while their alignment animation is still sideways compared to their direction of warp travel. This is most easily noticed in freighters when they are webbed into warp.
"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
One of ours, ten of theirs.
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Anhenka
Infinite Point
Nulli Secunda
1274
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Posted - 2015.03.20 02:01:32 -
[32] - Quote
Drez Arthie wrote:Anhenka wrote:
If the formula you stated earlier does not fit the situations I have explained, then you are not using the right model to try and explain it.
You're right, the model of "75% max velocity in the direction of warp" does not fit what actually happens in the game. There must be another model under the hood.
Feel free to go find it then, if you think it's incorrect.
The rest of us will use it as a perfectly functional model for most situations, since neither we nor the server apparently think 10k m/s SpaceEast == 7.1k m/s SpaceNorthEast as a suitable criteria for entering warp towards a point directly SpaceNorthEast. |
Misty Allure
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
10
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Posted - 2015.03.20 02:26:41 -
[33] - Quote
Drez Arthie wrote:
10k m/sec SpaceEast is 7.1k m/sec SpaceNorthEast. Source: PhD Physics, but even high school physics would tell you
Wait, what? Can you break that down for us scrubs that didn't go to 'high school' |
Drez Arthie
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
33
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Posted - 2015.03.20 02:48:52 -
[34] - Quote
Misty Allure wrote:Drez Arthie wrote:
10k m/sec SpaceEast is 7.1k m/sec SpaceNorthEast. Source: PhD Physics, but even high school physics would tell you
Wait, what? Can you break that down for us scrubs that didn't go to 'high school'
NorthEast = North/sqrt(2) + East/sqrt(2), not that complicated |
Khergit Deserters
Crom's Angels
3888
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Posted - 2015.03.20 03:45:29 -
[35] - Quote
Wut?
A) Sit in a Tornado aligned to, say, Hek 8-8, and shooting suspects.
B) Or the same Tornado in Hek, but aligned to a safe spot.
Do you want to be in that A) Tornado bulldozer spending seconds turning, aligning to a warp spot, and getting up to the minimum speed to initiate warp?
Or do you want to be the B) Tornado, that is already aligned, already has some momentum going toward the align point at the time of firing, just in case?
I don't think 'stay aligned' is some old wives' tale handed down from FC to FC. Turning your ship around and getting velocity up to warp take some time. Knowing how long your ship takes, and how long the other guy's ship takes-- that's the edge EVE players are looking for
'I beta tested this game 10 yrs ago. I saw back then it was going to be a carnival of degenerates....'
-HarleyDavidson Nightrain
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Gallowmere Rorschach
Enlightened Industries
Goonswarm Federation
957
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Posted - 2015.03.20 03:49:58 -
[36] - Quote
Gully Alex Foyle wrote:Yw.
To warp you need 75% max speed (after all modifiers, e.g. webs) and direction within a few '3D degrees' (whatever that is) of the destination. Again, you notice this 'within a few degrees' thing with fat capitals, they enter warp before being perfectly aligned. They complete the alignment while already in warp (it's kinda funny to see).
It's more like watching a powerslide played in reverse, when capitals enter warp. |
Anhenka
Infinite Point
Nulli Secunda
1274
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Posted - 2015.03.20 03:56:56 -
[37] - Quote
Khergit Deserters wrote:Wut?
A) Sit in a Tornado aligned to, say, Hek 8-8, and shooting suspects.
B) Or the same Tornado in Hek, but aligned to a safe spot.
Do you want to be in that A) Tornado bulldozer spending seconds turning, aligning to a warp spot, and getting up to the minimum speed to initiate warp?
Or do you want to be the B) Tornado, that is already aligned, already has some momentum going toward the align point at the time of firing, just in case?
I don't think 'stay aligned' is some old wives' tale handed down from FC to FC. Turning your ship around and getting velocity up to warp take some time. Knowing how long your ship takes, and how long the other guy's ship takes-- that's the edge EVE players are looking for
The subject is referring to the so called "passive align", which means sitting still after aligning to a target. This is a myth.
Of course if you are already aligned and moving towards the warp point you will get out faster. |
Justin Zaine
211
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Posted - 2015.03.20 06:12:35 -
[38] - Quote
I can't count the number of times i've killed wartarget industrials because someone in their corp told them "If you mine aligned, you'll be safe hurr durr."
Of course, the only way that mining aligned would actually help is if you were maintaining speed instead of sitting at 0m/s pointing in the right direction, but who wants to worry about constantly moving outside of mining laser range during something that most people do afk.
Silly miners 
He will win who knows when to fight and when not to fight.
He will win who, prepared himself, waits to take the enemy unprepared.
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Omar Alharazaad
Lords.Of.Midnight
The Devil's Warrior Alliance
1409
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Posted - 2015.03.20 07:31:13 -
[39] - Quote
I've heard that Chaotic Evil ships warp fastest. Can anyone confirm?
I keep a thoughtgun next to the bed, fully loaded with nerdshot. Just in case.
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Drez Arthie
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
36
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Posted - 2015.03.20 07:40:47 -
[40] - Quote
Justin Zaine wrote:I can't count the number of times i've killed wartarget industrials because someone in their corp told them "If you mine aligned, you'll be safe hurr durr."
"aligned" means your last command was "align to", and you have reached the minimum speed to enter warp (see earlier tedious argument about what direction you should be moving). Stopping your ship means you are no longer aligned. It's even more obvious if your destination is up or down, since our ships think they are submarines and settle into an imaginary horizontal position, which does not point toward up or down destinations.
Then again, you can mine while aligned for warp, but to do it continuously requires going back and forth between destinations in opposite directions from the mining site. It makes mining mildly more interesting to keep that up. |
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Jacob Holland
Weyland-Vulcan Industries
387
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Posted - 2015.03.20 08:42:24 -
[41] - Quote
Cecilla Rui wrote:
But what if you take a ship which is alligned to the warp to location with 0 m/s. It will take the time to get to 3/4 of the maxspeed and then the ship will get into warp.
If the ship's speed is actually zero (not rounded to zero) then its vector has zero magnitude and is therefore a point. A point has no direction and therefore the ship is not aligned to anything (or is equally aligned to everything).
So no, so-called "passive align" (where a ship is graphically pointed at a warpable but at a full stop) has no benefit at all. |
BoBoZoBo
Paragon Fury
Tactical Narcotics Team
545
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Posted - 2015.03.20 14:39:20 -
[42] - Quote
Rowells wrote:
For example:
My rifter is standing still facing the opposite direction for warp. It has the exact same align time as a rifter facing the proper direction.
If my rifter is moving at any velocity away from the warp angle, the time to warp increases.
Honestly, the term "align time" should probably change to "warp calculation time" or something similar, as the current term just causes confusion.
Primary Test Subject GÇó SmackTalker Elite
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Aralyn Cormallen
Wildly Inappropriate
Goonswarm Federation
900
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Posted - 2015.03.20 15:56:49 -
[43] - Quote
Drez Arthie wrote:Anhenka wrote:
If the formula you stated earlier does not fit the situations I have explained, then you are not using the right model to try and explain it.
You're right, the model of "75% max velocity in the direction of warp" does not fit what actually happens in the game. There must be another model under the hood.
The obvious "other model" is "and not moving faster in another direction".
It's probably a hard thing to get as a subcap pilot, since ships warp pretty quickly regardless of which way they are facing, you don't see the extremes. The mechanics become obvious once you start dealing with capital ships. Yesterday, my Aeon was bumped on jump-in by an alliance mate, such that my ship was skating at about 45 degrees from the direction I wanted to go at 8-10 times my normal max velocity.
Had I just pressed warp, in all likelihood my ship would have cruised for several minutes, as it tried to "right" my angle of velocity (despite, due to my high speed, under your simplistic model, I probably had plenty of velocity in the "right" direction, my vector was wrong, so I wasn't going anywhere). Believe me, this can take forever in these fat-assed ships; I've tried it on smaller bumps, and the bitches just wont warp if momentum is carrying them in even a shallow angle off your warp direction. Instead, I had to take time cancelling my velocity (supercap pilots often carry an MWD for this purpose, and activate it while giving a move order directly counter to the bump direction in order to reduce speed faster than just a stop command does). Once you have shrugged off the excess momentum, you can then attempt to warp. |
Cara Forelli
Green Skull LLC
996
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Posted - 2015.03.20 15:58:06 -
[44] - Quote
Gully Alex Foyle wrote: direction within a few '3D degrees' (whatever that is) of the destination
See steradian
Adventures
New player with questions? Join my public channel in game: House Forelli
Titan's Lament
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Justin Zaine
214
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Posted - 2015.03.22 00:10:36 -
[45] - Quote
Drez Arthie wrote:Justin Zaine wrote:I can't count the number of times i've killed wartarget industrials because someone in their corp told them "If you mine aligned, you'll be safe hurr durr."
"aligned" means your last command was "align to", and you have reached the minimum speed to enter warp (see earlier tedious argument about what direction you should be moving). Stopping your ship means you are no longer aligned. It's even more obvious if your destination is up or down, since our ships think they are submarines and settle into an imaginary horizontal position, which does not point toward up or down destinations. Then again, you can mine while aligned for warp, but to do it continuously requires going back and forth between destinations in opposite directions from the mining site. It makes mining mildly more interesting to keep that up.
Yes, I know that.
The problem is that most people don't explain the mechanic properly to noobs and/or believe that "Keeping your ships pointed in the direction you're warping is enough and will help you get out faster..."
Obviously this is a common misconception.
Hell, i've even had arguments about this on corp comms before with pvp'ers who've had years of experience.
He will win who knows when to fight and when not to fight.
He will win who, prepared himself, waits to take the enemy unprepared.
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Trevor Dalech
Dalechar Pest Control
99
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Posted - 2015.03.22 05:05:17 -
[46] - Quote
Drez Arthie wrote:One would think that you warp when the velocity component in the intended direction of travel reaches the required fraction of max speed (dot product of your velocity vector with unit vector pointing to warp destination). Maybe that is too physics-y though, who knows what the code actually does.
Combined with an afterburner or mwd, this would allow some very strange warps.
Imagine I'm moving with mwd at a 60 degree angle to my intended warp target. I shut off my mwd, I'm now moving at over twice my max velocity and the component of my velocity vector in the direction of my warp target is over 75% max, so I make an instant 60 degree turn and warp.
This is of course not the case, there is also a requirement that your direction of travel lies within 5 degrees of the direction of your warp target. |
Nikolai Lachance
Happy Wheels Logistics
149
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Posted - 2015.03.22 05:36:11 -
[47] - Quote
It is correct that the direction your ship model appears to be facing is purely cosmetic. The direction your ship's apparent thrusters are facing is ultimately meaningless. Your ship can apply a thrust force in any direction at a moment's notice.
To enter warp, the component of your ship's velocity that is moving directly toward your warp destination must be at least 75% of your ship's current maximum speed, and your velocity vector must point within about 8.1 degrees of that direction (it is likely to be the arccosine of 0.99).
I developed graphs that show what your align time would be based on the angle your current velocity vector is away from your destination, and what percentage of your max speed that you're moving. The graphs can be viewed here: http://imgur.com/a/jkRCq
The align time multiplier is what you multiply by your ship's mass in kilotons and then by your ship's inertia modifier to get actual align time in seconds.
The graphs show how align time is the same regardless of what direction you're pointing if you have 0 speed. It also shows that your worst case align when moving at 100% speed is if you're moving 98.1 degrees relative to your destination, with moving directly away from it being a very close second. The source of that local minimum between the two is where it starts to take longer to accelerate to 75% of your max toward the destination than it does to turn your ship within 8.1 degrees of it.
The second graph shows that, in some cases, it can actually make your align take longer if you shut off your afterburner just as you start to align to a target. Generally prop mods make you less agile while online due to their mass increase, thus making them bad for your align times. However, having a lot of excess speed as a result of turning one off is also bad for alignment, as it can take much longer to turn toward the destination, or move your speed where it needs to be. This effect is much more pronounced for MWDs since they add so much more speed. Generally speaking, if you're flying with an MWD on and you need to warp to something right now, you're better off leaving it on while you align. |
ShahFluffers
Ice Fire Warriors
Snuffed Out
7712
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Posted - 2015.03.22 06:03:36 -
[48] - Quote
Just gonna throw this in...
There are two requirements for warp:
- being aligned (see: your velocity vector is pointing) within a few degrees of your intended destination.
- your ship speed has to be within 75% to ~125% of max speed.
This means:
- you can warp with a little extra speed (more than your max velocity allows)... only so much.
Example: your frigate has a max speed of 500 m/sec... it is flying at 1000 m/sec... it will not warp until its speed is ~625 m/sec (even if its velocity vector is pointing in the right direction).
- you can manipulate the variables to allow for "instawarping"
Examples: freighter webbing trick, cloak-MWD trick, insta-undocks.
Also... anything you see on your end (client end) is PURELY graphical. The server is doing all the calculations and the client is merely sending-receiving inputs and trying to keep up.
How did you start?
The SP System
IFW
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Primary This Rifter
4S Corporation
Goonswarm Federation
748
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Posted - 2015.03.22 06:58:53 -
[49] - Quote
I'm pretty sure you can warp just fine at much higher than 125% max speed.
Reminder: CCP thinks you have no right to your alliance logos.
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Gully Alex Foyle
Black Fox Marauders
Spaceship Bebop
3750
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Posted - 2015.03.22 08:47:15 -
[50] - Quote
Primary This Rifter wrote:I'm pretty sure you can warp just fine at much higher than 125% max speed. Yes, just tested it.
Aligned, turned on MWD, turned off MWD, waited for speed to drop a little to confirm MWD off, hit warp --> warped instantly, even though the last speed shown on the gauge was around 300% of max base speed.
Make space glamorous!
Is EVE dying or not? Ask the EVE-O Death-o-meter!
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