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The final nail in the Minmatar character coffin?

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Author	Thread Statistics \| Show CCP posts - 2 post(s)
Ombey	Posted - 2006.10.20 13:14:00 - [31] Originally by: Plutoinum Ok, my Brutor brother is a lot cooler than me, because of his sun-glasses, but still... Why thankyou my brother -- ombeve
The Cosmopolite Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2006.10.20 13:21:00 - [32] Originally by: Oveur And yeah, I'm fine with you having an opinion, whatever that may be, but tux doesn't deserver that, he's very meticulous in how he works and if anything, he's always picking up leads, testing them out and seeing if the concerns are valid. At least, I get boatloads of emails from him with issues and conclusions drawn based on delving into it. Which maybe means my lack of faith, as expressed here is unwarranted but it does appear to many that there is something rotten in the state of Amarr and Minmatar ships and weapons - something that seems to be going relatively unaddressed. (I'm sorry but I really do not think fiddling with EANMs is going to sort Amarr out. It makes bare all odds to the impending total uselessness of the Apoc in a world where the Abbadon exists, as just one f.ex.) Whatever you think of That Amarr Thread (and I think it served its purpose long ago), you have to wonder why there is not a single dev response on it. The Min specialists have got some serious concerns here both on the Alpha Strike and the tactical questions. The base and plate/extender HP increase in near isolation can't seriously be being advanced as a solution to the ills of EVE combat. I hear you on Tux being a worker. I don't think anyone serious is going to bash him unthinkingly (apart from odd outbursts of frustration as quickly repented) but this incomplete picture, for that is what the optimist in me thinks it is, really is not helping us to understand where all this is going. I guess SiSi here I come, for your challenge is fair enough, and I'm not massively upset by all this just a bit puzzled and bemused. Cosmo Jericho Fraction
Ysolde Xen Minmatar Liberal Trading Co Electus Matari	Posted - 2006.10.20 13:49:00 - [33] Well, it'll mean people won't expect to see Matari ships ont he battlefield much. Queue the advantage of surprise (Go underdogs!) ----- It's not a crap ship, you're just flying it all wrong.
Nicocat Caldari New Age Solutions	Posted - 2006.10.20 13:54:00 - [34] Well, you know, Tux could simply... not put in the changes to HP? It seems not only Minmatar, but EVERYONE hates this idea. Soloers will have a hard time now, fleet fighters don't notice when 20 Bships hit the same target at once anyway, Amarr have more armor to chew through, Minny will run out of ammo (I don't like Arty anyway), Gallente will run out of cap booster charges... Hmm. Is this a Caldari stealth/side-effect boost? o.o ---------------------------- Remember, killing a Goon isn't murder. They don't have souls.
Patch86 Di-Tron Heavy Industries	Posted - 2006.10.20 14:04:00 - [35] I love the idea of longer fleet battles, but it'll have to balance every aspect of the game- you can't just slap a 50% HP bonus into the game without expecting it to all go wrong. If everything else is tweaked to keep it all in balance, I love it. If its just a 50% HP boost, then I see bad things. Things to keep it in balance: Cap things need addressing Ammo and Charge sizes need addressin Alpha Strike Drone HP (if they're as easy to kill as they are now, but everyone else is tougher, thats basically a drone HP nerf) etc. -----------------------------------------------
Rutoo Gallente Interstellar eXodus R0ADKILL	Posted - 2006.10.20 14:24:00 - [36] Originally by: Patch86 I love the idea of longer fleet battles, but it'll have to balance every aspect of the game- you can't just slap a 50% HP bonus into the game without expecting it to all go wrong. If everything else is tweaked to keep it all in balance, I love it. If its just a 50% HP boost, then I see bad things. Things to keep it in balance: Cap things need addressing Ammo and Charge sizes need addressin Alpha Strike Drone HP (if they're as easy to kill as they are now, but everyone else is tougher, thats basically a drone HP nerf) etc. Yes Longer Fleet Battles would be good if they can get th nodes stable enough to have them, And i can agree with all your points, as a tempest flyer my alpha strike is gonna be dead, most times i can rip though shields in 1 or 2 volleys depending on the ship, now i may have to worry when i am going to have to re-load my ammo before finishing the ship, This also allows the ship, more time to get away, or tank better, With the increases to plates and stuff also we are going to see ships that have 30K armor. :S And if you increase shield extenders anymore, it makes the Vagabond more of a Solo PWN ship. (which most fits now already have 1 or 2 shield extenders II's, Large at that) The End result is going to be a less total kills overall, Small Roaming interceptor/frig/cruiser gangs will become less effective, I mean my corp alright has our CEO yelling at us "why isn't he dead yet!" this is gonna make it worse. But if you must also increase the Drone HP like he said above, they die so easy and Tech II drones are getting expensive. _________________________________________________________ My First EvE Video Club Seals Not Sandwichs
Lord Sid Minmatar Lordless	Posted - 2006.10.20 14:39:00 - [37] What kind of ***** are you guys smoking? The OP specifically. I see nothing in that post that does anything bad to minmatars. -=Lucy in the Sky with Diamonds=-
Jali Prince Minmatar	Posted - 2006.10.20 14:44:00 - [38] I am Minmatar, I can fly any frigate cos I learned all the skills, There is only caldari at level 1 on those, I can fly a battlecruiser, destroyer and an interceptor, and I have trained the minnie cruiser and industrial, ok the ships look ugly, I can fly a gun(Rupture), a 3 pin plug(scythe), a fork(Rifter), a barge effect(Hoarder) and some square tube shaped thing which is huge!(Cyclone). I have flown a flying wing and a train. If I have a preference on looks I would fly amarr, but would not be that as a character.... I would always choose the underdog! Life is chocolate
Verus Potestas Caldari The I-Win Button	Posted - 2006.10.20 14:55:00 - [39] You know, I think the biggest issue is that Tux sounds clueless in dev chats. All the devs sounded a bit question-dodgy, but Tux just doesn't quite seem very good at communicating his ideas with an air of competence. He could have come up with the best balance system the internet had ever seen, but his general manner of communicating it would probably make a lot of the balance-police start a riot. I'm not going into specifics about what feels wrong about it (OK, I admit it. I don't really know what's wrong), but he just exudes an aura of clueless. This wasn't intended to be insulting, but rather what I think is wrong. Oveur's posts in this thread filled me with far confidence than Tux has managed over the last few months... RAWR!111 Sig Hijackz0r!!11 - Immy
Loftur sterki Rampage Eternal	Posted - 2006.10.20 15:10:00 - [40] Strange to see plp complain about Mini carrs you should try to be amarr. After 2 yers of training lasers i do less dmg than after my 1lvl of L guns. One can expect 2k ish dmg from Tempest even killin a bs in 1-2 volleys and you complain. Btw its no way to kill a bs in amarr battleships anymore, they only function as a pile in fleet ops, wick are nearly out of game nowadays. I'd be happy to be minmatar. Grumpy old Viking

Verus Potestas Caldari The I-Win Button	Posted - 2006.10.20 15:16:00 - [41] Originally by: Loftur sterki Strange to see plp complain about Mini carrs you should try to be amarr. After 2 yers of training lasers i do less dmg than after my 1lvl of L guns. One can expect 2k ish dmg from Tempest even killin a bs in 1-2 volleys and you complain. Btw its no way to kill a bs in amarr battleships anymore, they only function as a pile in fleet ops, wick are nearly out of game nowadays. I'd be happy to be minmatar. You have no idea what you are talking about. Though for solo, the amarr BSs aren't too hot, I'll give you that. Still, not everything is solo, is it? Ask anyone Caldari (Who have ONE ship which is good for solo PvP, the crow). RAWR!111 Sig Hijackz0r!!11 - Immy
Serapis Aote TBC	Posted - 2006.10.20 15:29:00 - [42] If the problem is blobbing in fleet fights, i dont see how the increase is going to make much of a difference. People want to pop a BS in one or two volleys, they will just bring enough ships to do it. What if you enabled the warp to option to warp to snipers on the same grid. And then increase the damage and range of smartbombs. I could see some people warping some tanked up apocs right into the blob to break it up that way. Then you could have frigs and cursiers warping in and out in hit and runs on the blob as well. Maybe give apoc a smartbomb bonus to range and damage. I dont know what a good solution would be, but I dont see HP increase doing the trick. It will make small gang fights longer, and a bit of nerf to gate snipers and such but overall i dont see it hurting anything but small to medium sized gangs. And maybe the viability of medium v. large blobs.
Polinus	Posted - 2006.10.20 16:28:00 - [43] HP boost will have NONE positive effects. Fleet battle will take same time. Fleets usually have farmore than enough FP to pop a ship. So they will styill be poped. But other types of combat will be extremely prejudiced. Specially small fleet. When Minmatar had the single important advantage of their art weapons, being able to pop a ship in first voley with less ships concerntrating firepower. TO keep large battles longger.. limit the number os ships that can lock on same ship at same time.
Zarch AlDain Friends of Everyone	Posted - 2006.10.20 16:29:00 - [44] Devs have said several times that they want fights to last longer as they can then add more options and tactics. I guess those options and tactics might make them shorter again...but you never know :) Zarch AlDain
Polinus	Posted - 2006.10.20 16:34:00 - [45] As I said, fight wont take longer. Just because fights will take just larger groups to kill ships in same time. And people that likes small parties will be prejudiced. Want fights to take longer? reduce Rof And shield regeneration and armor repair (so that tanks can still be broken).
Soraya Silvermoon Never'where	Posted - 2006.10.20 16:35:00 - [46] What about halving the range of all turrets.. let EW play a role in fleets again.. Nerfing damage output or alpha isnt going to solve anything.. 20 bses will wtfpwn any bs their locking even you halved their damage and doubled the tank.. I`m pretty sure tall the probs would be gone if TII ammo were removed/nerfed and ew boosted. I dont personally think micromanaging making changes to a few ships and such will alter the way battles are fought right now wich is "lock and activate guns and pray"
Serapis Aote TBC	Posted - 2006.10.20 16:40:00 - [47] Originally by: Soraya Silvermoon What about halving the range of all turrets.. let EW play a role in fleets again.. Nerfing damage output or alpha isnt going to solve anything.. 20 bses will wtfpwn any bs their locking even you halved their damage and doubled the tank.. I`m pretty sure tall the probs would be gone if TII ammo were removed/nerfed and ew boosted. I dont personally think micromanaging making changes to a few ships and such will alter the way battles are fought right now wich is "lock and activate guns and pray" Very good points... The one thing i think everyone can agree on is, doing this really hurts the alpha strike of matari for small gangs, which to the best of my recollection was not a huge problem compared to other snipers (a bit of a problem but not huge). But does nothing to effect the fleet battle problem which is what they were looking to effect.
Plutoinum German Cyberdome Corp Veritas Immortalis	Posted - 2006.10.20 16:56:00 - [48] Edited by: Plutoinum on 20/10/2006 16:58:48 Originally by: Loftur sterki Strange to see plp complain about Mini carrs you should try to be amarr. After 2 yers of training lasers i do less dmg than after my 1lvl of L guns. One can expect 2k ish dmg from Tempest even killin a bs in 1-2 volleys and you complain. Btw its no way to kill a bs in amarr battleships anymore, they only function as a pile in fleet ops, wick are nearly out of game nowadays. I'd be happy to be minmatar. I'd say the limit for a damage modded tempest with skill at level 5 and large projectiles at lvl.5 is maybe 2300 on zero resistances with closerange t1 ammo and a bit over 3100 with close-range t1 ammo ? The tempest has only 6 guns and get 25% plus on damage from the BS skill. The rate of fire of artilleries is low of course. If I look into my log, how often a wrecking hit's occurs, then it will most likely never happen that someone manages a 6-times wrecking salve. E.g if every 20th shot is a wrecking hit, then the chance for a complete wrecking salve is 1/(2020202020*20) with a tempest. Not likely to insta-popp a BS. I can't comment about amarr, can only use t1-amarr stuff, so I stick with minmatar anyway until I die/leave I guess or accumulate 50 mil SP
VulkanXx Minmatar Original Black Plague Blood of the Innocents	Posted - 2006.10.20 17:13:00 - [49] I agree, the HP boosts are pointless and will not solve ANYTHING!
Soraya Silvermoon Never'where	Posted - 2006.10.20 17:18:00 - [50] Edited by: Soraya Silvermoon on 20/10/2006 17:21:53 Originally by: VulkanXx I agree, the HP boosts are pointless and will not solve ANYTHING! I disagree when it comes to capital ships. they could do with a 4 time increase in hp (tank but not sustainable tank) right now its to easy for a small fleet to warp in and "gank" em before support arrives or anything else gets a lock.. a lot of the times the cap ship pilot cant even activate shield/armour rep with the lag before he is dead.. OMG just realized.. when we got that problems on capital ships even I definetly dont see how 50% more hp to bses are going to solve anything.. But tbh more hp is probably good. But might have to up the dps by upping the alpha on the tempests not sure..

Vladic Ka Sniggerdly	Posted - 2006.10.20 19:20:00 - [51] LOL Just something one of my corp m8's found. Quidquid latine dictum sit, altum viditur.
Jim McGregor Caldari	Posted - 2006.10.20 19:23:00 - [52] Originally by: Vladic Ka LOL Just something one of my corp m8's found. Yeah, there is a thread in Ships & Modules with that movie... :) --- Eve Wiki \| Eve Tribune \| Eve Pirate
Vladic Ka Sniggerdly	Posted - 2006.10.20 19:25:00 - [53] Originally by: Jim McGregor Originally by: Vladic Ka LOL Just something one of my corp m8's found. Yeah, there is a thread in Ships & Modules with that movie... :) Backdoor Bandit wins this thread. Quidquid latine dictum sit, altum viditur.
Parallax Error Amarr Imperial Dreams Curatores Veritatis Alliance	Posted - 2006.10.20 19:47:00 - [54] Originally by: Eilie Yes the game was balanced in 2003. Shield Hardeners gave 70% resist and had no stacking penatly either. I flew threw the m0o camps in my Blackbird all the time with 90%+ em/thermal resist and 2x MWD. The problem was that 99% of players were too stupid to think about defense and had the gank-only mentality. Are you actually serious or is that an ironic attempt to point out some of the obvious flaws of 2003 PVP in EVE?
Hakera Anari Higard	Posted - 2006.10.20 19:56:00 - [55] Originally by: Parallax Error Originally by: Eilie Yes the game was balanced in 2003. Shield Hardeners gave 70% resist and had no stacking penatly either. I flew threw the m0o camps in my Blackbird all the time with 90%+ em/thermal resist and 2x MWD. The problem was that 99% of players were too stupid to think about defense and had the gank-only mentality. Are you actually serious or is that an ironic attempt to point out some of the obvious flaws of 2003 PVP in EVE? he was being sarcastic in reply to some comments made earlier that eve was more balanced back then. i find this thread amusing really + the 20 other threads in ships & modules, and that is indeed where the debate should be kept, in tux's thread.
Pesadel0 Vagabundos	Posted - 2006.10.20 20:16:00 - [56] Originally by: Hakera Originally by: Parallax Error Originally by: Eilie Yes the game was balanced in 2003. Shield Hardeners gave 70% resist and had no stacking penatly either. I flew threw the m0o camps in my Blackbird all the time with 90%+ em/thermal resist and 2x MWD. The problem was that 99% of players were too stupid to think about defense and had the gank-only mentality. Are you actually serious or is that an ironic attempt to point out some of the obvious flaws of 2003 PVP in EVE? he was being sarcastic in reply to some comments made earlier that eve was more balanced back then. i find this thread amusing really + the 20 other threads in ships & modules, and that is indeed where the debate should be kept, in tux's thread. The irony is that we received the answer here in this thread
Jim McGregor Caldari	Posted - 2006.10.20 20:19:00 - [57] Originally by: Pesadel0 The irony is that we received the answer here in this thread Well, only because I was acting like a idiot... --- Eve Wiki \| Eve Tribune \| Eve Pirate
Verus Potestas Caldari The I-Win Button	Posted - 2006.10.20 20:21:00 - [58] Originally by: Jim McGregor Originally by: Pesadel0 The irony is that we received the answer here in this thread Well, only because I was acting like a idiot... Hmm, I have a plan. Let's drop Jim on his head and then tie him to his PC to elicit more dev responses! RAWR!111 Sig Hijackz0r!!11 - Immy
Jim McGregor Caldari	Posted - 2006.10.20 20:24:00 - [59] Originally by: Verus Potestas Let's drop Jim on his head and then tie him to his PC to elicit more dev responses! Wont I be unconscious? --- Eve Wiki \| Eve Tribune \| Eve Pirate
Jim McGregor Caldari	Posted - 2006.10.20 20:29:00 - [60] Originally by: Verus Potestas Originally by: Jim McGregor Originally by: Verus Potestas Let's drop Jim on his head and then tie him to his PC to elicit more dev responses! Wont I be unconscious? No, I mean drop you on your head to elicit more idiotness when you wake up. Also, while you're unconcious, it's easier to both tie you to the PC and have our way with you. To have your way with me, all you have to be is female. --- Eve Wiki \| Eve Tribune \| Eve Pirate



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