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The final nail in the Minmatar character coffin?

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JForce The Arrow Project The ARR0W Project	Posted - 2006.10.20 09:57:00 - [1] http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=413476 If you were starting a new character tomorrow, would you choose to be a Minnie? The Australasian PvP Championships
RaTTuS BIG R i s e	Posted - 2006.10.20 10:01:00 - [2] How hard for the lazy -- BIG Lottery, BIG Deal \| RaTTuS @ Skills Showroom
Victor Valka Caldari Terra Incognita	Posted - 2006.10.20 10:09:00 - [3] Thread title is wrong. Minmatar don't use nails.
James Lyrus Lyrus Associates Interstellar Starbase Syndicate	Posted - 2006.10.20 10:10:00 - [4] ZOMG THE SKY IS FALLING!!!!11111one To answer your question. Yes. I'm actually currently cross training minmatar frigate/cruiser/BS, although that's on hold ish to get dread/rohk skills in place. My opinion hasn't changed. Alpha strike isn't that important anyway, where no cap use and variable damage types is going to become _even more_ useful. What would you rather have? 1000 dps against a 60% resist, or 600dps against a 10% resist? Not all races are good at everything. The advantage to EVE is that you _can_ cross train to fill in the gaps.
Patch Esquire Di-Tron Light Industries	Posted - 2006.10.20 11:07:00 - [5] I created this minmatar Alt to accompany my Gallente character. Being a same-account Alt I can't actually train it in anything, but if I were to make a second account, I would make it minmatar. Why? I don't like Caldari, and Amarr are a little too similar to Gallente. ----------------------------------------------- If you're reading this, Patch86 was too lazy to select his main. Again.
mama guru Gallente Friendship 7 Corporation YouWhat	Posted - 2006.10.20 11:09:00 - [6] A wise man once said, Just because you are minmatar does not mean you have to fly minmatar. -space reserved for some cool looking non political image-
Jippy Vengeance of the Fallen Imperium Alliance	Posted - 2006.10.20 11:41:00 - [7] Edited by: Jippy on 20/10/2006 11:42:13 The truth of the matter is, and despite the ignorance that people will put in this thread. If your end-game goal is BS/Carrier/Dread, you have no reason not to go with Gallente. End of story. Right now there is no reason to go any other race except for the smaller ships, but even then the Gallente are fine all the way through the game. I personally don't care, but it is the unbiased truth.
Plutoinum German Cyberdome Corp Veritas Immortalis	Posted - 2006.10.20 11:47:00 - [8] Originally by: mama guru A wise man once said, Just because you are minmatar does not mean you have to fly minmatar. Yes, sure I throw my 8.5 mil SP in ships and my millions in tech-2 projectiles away to start with Gallente now. I mean I have already gallente frigates two. Might be worth it. Anyway we are still the coolest. Ok, my Brutor brother is a lot cooler than me, because of his sun-glasses, but still...
Jim McGregor Caldari	Posted - 2006.10.20 11:50:00 - [9] Originally by: Jippy Edited by: Jippy on 20/10/2006 11:42:13 The truth of the matter is, and despite the ignorance that people will put in this thread. If your end-game goal is BS/Carrier/Dread, you have no reason not to go with Gallente. End of story. Right now there is no reason to go any other race except for the smaller ships, but even then the Gallente are fine all the way through the game. I personally don't care, but it is the unbiased truth. The balance in this game is horrible. Replace Tuxford ffs before its too late. I remember back in 2003 when the game actually was pretty balanced and fun. Bring that back please...? --- Eve Wiki \| Eve Tribune \| Eve Pirate

Oveur	Posted - 2006.10.20 11:54:00 - [10] Originally by: Jim McGregor Originally by: Jippy Edited by: Jippy on 20/10/2006 11:42:13 The truth of the matter is, and despite the ignorance that people will put in this thread. If your end-game goal is BS/Carrier/Dread, you have no reason not to go with Gallente. End of story. Right now there is no reason to go any other race except for the smaller ships, but even then the Gallente are fine all the way through the game. I personally don't care, but it is the unbiased truth. The balance in this game is horrible. Replace Tuxford ffs before its too late. I remember back in 2003 when the game actually was pretty balanced and fun. Bring that back please...? Jim. Statements like that, without even having tested the changes don't raise my opinion of you. At least have the decency to test it before you talk about people like that. I show you the same courtesy. Senior Producer EVE Online



Chribba Otherworld Enterprises Otherworld Empire	Posted - 2006.10.20 11:58:00 - [11] Minnie gets no changes coz we are already perfect EVE-Files \| EVE-Search \| Monitor this Thread

Plutoinum German Cyberdome Corp Veritas Immortalis	Posted - 2006.10.20 12:04:00 - [12] Edited by: Plutoinum on 20/10/2006 12:12:22 Originally by: James Lyrus What would you rather have? 1000 dps against a 60% resist, or 600dps against a 10% resist? Wonder how many tanked 1400mm tempests there will be in the future in fleetbattles. How much dps and range will there be left, if I switch to 1200mm and remove damage and tracking mods to tank that ship ? Just a question. Guess I just have to wait and see. /edit don't argue with autocannons, our new BS is meant as a pure artillery platform (which doesn't have much more dps with 8 1400mm, than a tempest with 6 btw., if you have minmatar bs 5.) The grid might be even more tight then, don't know. At least I've got adv. weapon upgrades 5 to fit, what's possible.
Jim McGregor Caldari	Posted - 2006.10.20 12:06:00 - [13] Edited by: Jim McGregor on 20/10/2006 12:13:58 Originally by: Oveur Jim. Statements like that, without even having tested the changes don't raise my opinion of you. At least have the decency to test it before you talk about people like that. I show you the same courtesy. Fair enough. I used too strong words there. Im just cranky and frustrated over how hit & run tactics and alpha strike nerfs hit the minmatar hard, and I hate the direction the game balancing is taking. That doesnt mean I should be rude though, so... sorry about that. As for testing, I will help test the changes on the test server. Just get it on there. :) --- Eve Wiki \| Eve Tribune \| Eve Pirate
Eilie Minmatar	Posted - 2006.10.20 12:14:00 - [14] Minmatar FTW! As someone who only flys frigs and cruisers with autocannons I love all the new changes! I accepted long ago that Minmatar ships of BS and larger size will always be useless since the little extra speed for those ships doesn't help at all. (The only stupid thing Tux did is the Inertia Stabilizer change. They will still be useless compared to Nanofibers.)
Jim McGregor Caldari	Posted - 2006.10.20 12:15:00 - [15] Originally by: Chribba Minnie gets no changes coz we are already perfect By the way, I saw you on the sharky killmail... didnt know you had a killer inside.. :) --- Eve Wiki \| Eve Tribune \| Eve Pirate
Druid R Murder of Crows	Posted - 2006.10.20 12:17:00 - [16] whats embarrasing is that if u put 8 1400's on that dirty amarr ship it outdamages a tempest with 6 1400's. i only fly minnie ships cause im a minnie char, just the way it has to be for me. im about to complete torps 5 so i can get citadels and will have full setup for my nag, oh and i might be able to pilot the phoon now as well :P minnie are by far the hardest race to train for, u need t2 in proj's missiles and drones, plus both shield and armour tanking skills. once u get to a decent skill lvl (around 20m+) i would say, u can fly most minnie ships very well and will be a pain in the neck to those amarr scum!
madaluap Gallente Mercenary Forces	Posted - 2006.10.20 12:18:00 - [17] Well i wouldnt mind gallente getting nerfed, kinda anoying to see that from: "the few, the strong, the pridest warriors" .we turned into the wtf ownage race and everyone is training for it. Im considering training into ammar atm, just like a year+ ago when my gankageddon got shot down by a megathron and i knew that a megathron took some skills. trained into gallente right away _________________________________________________
Jim McGregor Caldari	Posted - 2006.10.20 12:19:00 - [18] Edited by: Jim McGregor on 20/10/2006 12:23:26 Originally by: Druid R whats embarrasing is that if u put 8 1400's on that dirty amarr ship it outdamages a tempest with 6 1400's. That cant be true. Tempest with its double damage bonus (im simplifying the rof bonus to mean 25% damage) has the damage of 9 effective turrets. But its close. But the alpha strike with 8 guns with no dmg bonus is still larger than the alpha strike of 6 guns with a dmg bonus (Tempest only gets 7.5 turrets of alpha strike). Maybe thats what you meant. --- Eve Wiki \| Eve Tribune \| Eve Pirate
Aloysius Knight Minmatar Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.10.20 12:25:00 - [19] Originally by: Oveur Originally by: Jim McGregor Originally by: Jippy Edited by: Jippy on 20/10/2006 11:42:13 The truth of the matter is, and despite the ignorance that people will put in this thread. If your end-game goal is BS/Carrier/Dread, you have no reason not to go with Gallente. End of story. Right now there is no reason to go any other race except for the smaller ships, but even then the Gallente are fine all the way through the game. I personally don't care, but it is the unbiased truth. The balance in this game is horrible. Replace Tuxford ffs before its too late. I remember back in 2003 when the game actually was pretty balanced and fun. Bring that back please...? Jim. Statements like that, without even having tested the changes don't raise my opinion of you. At least have the decency to test it before you talk about people like that. I show you the same courtesy. well see thats a nice idea and all oveur but historys shown that when it comes to minmtar and testing, by the time we get to test changes its too late to change them, only by campaning for months do we get a change and even then its not enuff (typhoon anyone?) example minmatar carrier nuff said
Parallax Error Amarr Imperial Dreams Curatores Veritatis Alliance	Posted - 2006.10.20 12:26:00 - [20] Originally by: Jim McGregor Originally by: Jippy Edited by: Jippy on 20/10/2006 11:42:13 The truth of the matter is, and despite the ignorance that people will put in this thread. If your end-game goal is BS/Carrier/Dread, you have no reason not to go with Gallente. End of story. Right now there is no reason to go any other race except for the smaller ships, but even then the Gallente are fine all the way through the game. I personally don't care, but it is the unbiased truth. The balance in this game is horrible. Replace Tuxford ffs before its too late. I remember back in 2003 when the game actually was pretty balanced and fun. Bring that back please...? Say what? So the game was fun and balanced with stacked stamped heatsinks where it was a case of fastest lock wins? 2003 mechanics were so far behind the current ones its not funny, nostalgia isn't the way forward.


Oveur	Posted - 2006.10.20 12:26:00 - [21] Originally by: Jim McGregor Edited by: Jim McGregor on 20/10/2006 12:13:58 Originally by: Oveur Jim. Statements like that, without even having tested the changes don't raise my opinion of you. At least have the decency to test it before you talk about people like that. I show you the same courtesy. Fair enough. I used too strong words there. Im just cranky and frustrated over how hit & run tactics and alpha strike nerfs hit the minmatar hard, and I hate the direction the game balancing is taking. That doesnt mean I should be rude though, so... sorry about that. As for testing, I will help test the changes on the test server. Just get it on there. :) We're actually quite aware of the alpha-strike effectiveness after the current changes and although we haven't really got anything concrete we feel happy with, we have some changes we want to check out in public testing. And yeah, I'm fine with you having an opinion, whatever that may be, but tux doesn't deserver that, he's very meticulous in how he works and if anything, he's always picking up leads, testing them out and seeing if the concerns are valid. At least, I get boatloads of emails from him with issues and conclusions drawn based on delving into it. See you on Sisi mate Senior Producer EVE Online

Eilie Minmatar	Posted - 2006.10.20 12:32:00 - [22] Originally by: Parallax Error Originally by: Jim McGregor Originally by: Jippy Edited by: Jippy on 20/10/2006 11:42:13 The truth of the matter is, and despite the ignorance that people will put in this thread. If your end-game goal is BS/Carrier/Dread, you have no reason not to go with Gallente. End of story. Right now there is no reason to go any other race except for the smaller ships, but even then the Gallente are fine all the way through the game. I personally don't care, but it is the unbiased truth. The balance in this game is horrible. Replace Tuxford ffs before its too late. I remember back in 2003 when the game actually was pretty balanced and fun. Bring that back please...? Say what? So the game was fun and balanced with stacked stamped heatsinks where it was a case of fastest lock wins? 2003 mechanics were so far behind the current ones its not funny, nostalgia isn't the way forward. Yes the game was balanced in 2003. Shield Hardeners gave 70% resist and had no stacking penatly either. I flew threw the m0o camps in my Blackbird all the time with 90%+ em/thermal resist and 2x MWD. The problem was that 99% of players were too stupid to think about defense and had the gank-only mentality.

Chribba Otherworld Enterprises Otherworld Empire	Posted - 2006.10.20 12:34:00 - [23] Originally by: Jim McGregor Originally by: Chribba Minnie gets no changes coz we are already perfect By the way, I saw you on the sharky killmail... didnt know you had a killer inside.. :) I had to train something after Mining 5 back in the days when there was like 10 skills available, so it's a relic skill from past time that became useful, I was only trying to get some Veldspar when all this big ass jovian bs warped in and started tearing up my can - I had to retaliate you know EVE-Files \| EVE-Search \| Monitor this Thread

Blacklight Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.10.20 12:37:00 - [24] Edited by: Blacklight on 20/10/2006 12:37:35 Originally by: Aloysius Knight well see thats a nice idea and all oveur but historys shown that when it comes to minmtar and testing, by the time we get to test changes its too late to change them, only by campaning for months do we get a change and even then its not enuff (typhoon anyone?) example minmatar carrier nuff said Just make sure you get your Sisi time in when the code is deployed, we'll be doing plenty testing as a corp and providing appropriate feedback. Now go shoot some hobbits please
Druid R Murder of Crows	Posted - 2006.10.20 12:43:00 - [25] Edited by: Druid R on 20/10/2006 12:43:50 im not going to slag tux off, but he has run away from the other thread, and think one of u guys needs to either respond to it in a positive way, or say we are looking into it (as u just have) and then lock it. alpha strikes WILL need looking at, and tbh i would take a lowering in my alpha strike ability if it improved the dps to much more inline with other ships. the thread i was talking about is this one see you on sisi when these changes hit, i really wanna test them and feedback.null one
Mitchman Omniscient Order	Posted - 2006.10.20 13:02:00 - [26] Originally by: Jim McGregor The balance in this game is horrible. Replace Tuxford ffs before its too late. I remember back in 2003 when the game actually was pretty balanced and fun. Bring that back please...? You obviously have no idea what you are talking about. Let me remind you a bit how it was in 2003: - Shield hardeners were 70% resist. Scorps with almost 100% resist to dmg was common. - Cap Power Relay had no shield boost penalty, so apocs with XL shield booster and 7x CPR in lows could tank forever. - Damage mod stacking was so horrible because not only did it stack with small AND medium skills, but it also stacked with surgical strike skill. This caused people to have redicilous dmg mods on any gun and a cruiser could insta pop another cruiser. - MWDs stacked, so you could fit 3x MWD and do 20km/s or more. I can go on, but I think I proved my point that you don't really know what you are doing.
Aloysius Knight Minmatar Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.10.20 13:04:00 - [27] Originally by: Blacklight Edited by: Blacklight on 20/10/2006 12:37:35 Originally by: Aloysius Knight well see thats a nice idea and all oveur but historys shown that when it comes to minmtar and testing, by the time we get to test changes its too late to change them, only by campaning for months do we get a change and even then its not enuff (typhoon anyone?) example minmatar carrier nuff said Just make sure you get your Sisi time in when the code is deployed, we'll be doing plenty testing as a corp and providing appropriate feedback. Now go shoot some hobbits please ohhhh ok dad
Hysenthlay Minmatar The Merchant Marines Miners With Attitude	Posted - 2006.10.20 13:08:00 - [28] Rolled a Minmatar first and would roll another again. Why? A real Minmatar will find a way to make it work like we always have. The rest will just go fly a Raven. On the plus side ships will cost less for us now!! ____________________________ Silflay Hraka U Embleer Rah
Jim McGregor Caldari	Posted - 2006.10.20 13:08:00 - [29] Originally by: Mitchman Originally by: Jim McGregor The balance in this game is horrible. Replace Tuxford ffs before its too late. I remember back in 2003 when the game actually was pretty balanced and fun. Bring that back please...? You obviously have no idea what you are talking about. Let me remind you a bit how it was in 2003: - Shield hardeners were 70% resist. Scorps with almost 100% resist to dmg was common. - Cap Power Relay had no shield boost penalty, so apocs with XL shield booster and 7x CPR in lows could tank forever. - Damage mod stacking was so horrible because not only did it stack with small AND medium skills, but it also stacked with surgical strike skill. This caused people to have redicilous dmg mods on any gun and a cruiser could insta pop another cruiser. - MWDs stacked, so you could fit 3x MWD and do 20km/s or more. I can go on, but I think I proved my point that you don't really know what you are doing. Yeah yeah, Ive already apologized...and besides, I was talking about balance between the races. But never mind that now. I was kind of upset when I wrote that, so just let it be. :) --- Eve Wiki \| Eve Tribune \| Eve Pirate
darklegionca	Posted - 2006.10.20 13:10:00 - [30] didnt you get the memo they use duct tape not nails darklegionca - One name. One legend.

Ombey	Posted - 2006.10.20 13:14:00 - [31] Originally by: Plutoinum Ok, my Brutor brother is a lot cooler than me, because of his sun-glasses, but still... Why thankyou my brother -- ombeve
The Cosmopolite Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2006.10.20 13:21:00 - [32] Originally by: Oveur And yeah, I'm fine with you having an opinion, whatever that may be, but tux doesn't deserver that, he's very meticulous in how he works and if anything, he's always picking up leads, testing them out and seeing if the concerns are valid. At least, I get boatloads of emails from him with issues and conclusions drawn based on delving into it. Which maybe means my lack of faith, as expressed here is unwarranted but it does appear to many that there is something rotten in the state of Amarr and Minmatar ships and weapons - something that seems to be going relatively unaddressed. (I'm sorry but I really do not think fiddling with EANMs is going to sort Amarr out. It makes bare all odds to the impending total uselessness of the Apoc in a world where the Abbadon exists, as just one f.ex.) Whatever you think of That Amarr Thread (and I think it served its purpose long ago), you have to wonder why there is not a single dev response on it. The Min specialists have got some serious concerns here both on the Alpha Strike and the tactical questions. The base and plate/extender HP increase in near isolation can't seriously be being advanced as a solution to the ills of EVE combat. I hear you on Tux being a worker. I don't think anyone serious is going to bash him unthinkingly (apart from odd outbursts of frustration as quickly repented) but this incomplete picture, for that is what the optimist in me thinks it is, really is not helping us to understand where all this is going. I guess SiSi here I come, for your challenge is fair enough, and I'm not massively upset by all this just a bit puzzled and bemused. Cosmo Jericho Fraction
Ysolde Xen Minmatar Liberal Trading Co Electus Matari	Posted - 2006.10.20 13:49:00 - [33] Well, it'll mean people won't expect to see Matari ships ont he battlefield much. Queue the advantage of surprise (Go underdogs!) ----- It's not a crap ship, you're just flying it all wrong.
Nicocat Caldari New Age Solutions	Posted - 2006.10.20 13:54:00 - [34] Well, you know, Tux could simply... not put in the changes to HP? It seems not only Minmatar, but EVERYONE hates this idea. Soloers will have a hard time now, fleet fighters don't notice when 20 Bships hit the same target at once anyway, Amarr have more armor to chew through, Minny will run out of ammo (I don't like Arty anyway), Gallente will run out of cap booster charges... Hmm. Is this a Caldari stealth/side-effect boost? o.o ---------------------------- Remember, killing a Goon isn't murder. They don't have souls.
Patch86 Di-Tron Heavy Industries	Posted - 2006.10.20 14:04:00 - [35] I love the idea of longer fleet battles, but it'll have to balance every aspect of the game- you can't just slap a 50% HP bonus into the game without expecting it to all go wrong. If everything else is tweaked to keep it all in balance, I love it. If its just a 50% HP boost, then I see bad things. Things to keep it in balance: Cap things need addressing Ammo and Charge sizes need addressin Alpha Strike Drone HP (if they're as easy to kill as they are now, but everyone else is tougher, thats basically a drone HP nerf) etc. -----------------------------------------------
Rutoo Gallente Interstellar eXodus R0ADKILL	Posted - 2006.10.20 14:24:00 - [36] Originally by: Patch86 I love the idea of longer fleet battles, but it'll have to balance every aspect of the game- you can't just slap a 50% HP bonus into the game without expecting it to all go wrong. If everything else is tweaked to keep it all in balance, I love it. If its just a 50% HP boost, then I see bad things. Things to keep it in balance: Cap things need addressing Ammo and Charge sizes need addressin Alpha Strike Drone HP (if they're as easy to kill as they are now, but everyone else is tougher, thats basically a drone HP nerf) etc. Yes Longer Fleet Battles would be good if they can get th nodes stable enough to have them, And i can agree with all your points, as a tempest flyer my alpha strike is gonna be dead, most times i can rip though shields in 1 or 2 volleys depending on the ship, now i may have to worry when i am going to have to re-load my ammo before finishing the ship, This also allows the ship, more time to get away, or tank better, With the increases to plates and stuff also we are going to see ships that have 30K armor. :S And if you increase shield extenders anymore, it makes the Vagabond more of a Solo PWN ship. (which most fits now already have 1 or 2 shield extenders II's, Large at that) The End result is going to be a less total kills overall, Small Roaming interceptor/frig/cruiser gangs will become less effective, I mean my corp alright has our CEO yelling at us "why isn't he dead yet!" this is gonna make it worse. But if you must also increase the Drone HP like he said above, they die so easy and Tech II drones are getting expensive. _________________________________________________________ My First EvE Video Club Seals Not Sandwichs
Lord Sid Minmatar Lordless	Posted - 2006.10.20 14:39:00 - [37] What kind of ***** are you guys smoking? The OP specifically. I see nothing in that post that does anything bad to minmatars. -=Lucy in the Sky with Diamonds=-
Jali Prince Minmatar	Posted - 2006.10.20 14:44:00 - [38] I am Minmatar, I can fly any frigate cos I learned all the skills, There is only caldari at level 1 on those, I can fly a battlecruiser, destroyer and an interceptor, and I have trained the minnie cruiser and industrial, ok the ships look ugly, I can fly a gun(Rupture), a 3 pin plug(scythe), a fork(Rifter), a barge effect(Hoarder) and some square tube shaped thing which is huge!(Cyclone). I have flown a flying wing and a train. If I have a preference on looks I would fly amarr, but would not be that as a character.... I would always choose the underdog! Life is chocolate
Verus Potestas Caldari The I-Win Button	Posted - 2006.10.20 14:55:00 - [39] You know, I think the biggest issue is that Tux sounds clueless in dev chats. All the devs sounded a bit question-dodgy, but Tux just doesn't quite seem very good at communicating his ideas with an air of competence. He could have come up with the best balance system the internet had ever seen, but his general manner of communicating it would probably make a lot of the balance-police start a riot. I'm not going into specifics about what feels wrong about it (OK, I admit it. I don't really know what's wrong), but he just exudes an aura of clueless. This wasn't intended to be insulting, but rather what I think is wrong. Oveur's posts in this thread filled me with far confidence than Tux has managed over the last few months... RAWR!111 Sig Hijackz0r!!11 - Immy
Loftur sterki Rampage Eternal	Posted - 2006.10.20 15:10:00 - [40] Strange to see plp complain about Mini carrs you should try to be amarr. After 2 yers of training lasers i do less dmg than after my 1lvl of L guns. One can expect 2k ish dmg from Tempest even killin a bs in 1-2 volleys and you complain. Btw its no way to kill a bs in amarr battleships anymore, they only function as a pile in fleet ops, wick are nearly out of game nowadays. I'd be happy to be minmatar. Grumpy old Viking

Verus Potestas Caldari The I-Win Button	Posted - 2006.10.20 15:16:00 - [41] Originally by: Loftur sterki Strange to see plp complain about Mini carrs you should try to be amarr. After 2 yers of training lasers i do less dmg than after my 1lvl of L guns. One can expect 2k ish dmg from Tempest even killin a bs in 1-2 volleys and you complain. Btw its no way to kill a bs in amarr battleships anymore, they only function as a pile in fleet ops, wick are nearly out of game nowadays. I'd be happy to be minmatar. You have no idea what you are talking about. Though for solo, the amarr BSs aren't too hot, I'll give you that. Still, not everything is solo, is it? Ask anyone Caldari (Who have ONE ship which is good for solo PvP, the crow). RAWR!111 Sig Hijackz0r!!11 - Immy
Serapis Aote TBC	Posted - 2006.10.20 15:29:00 - [42] If the problem is blobbing in fleet fights, i dont see how the increase is going to make much of a difference. People want to pop a BS in one or two volleys, they will just bring enough ships to do it. What if you enabled the warp to option to warp to snipers on the same grid. And then increase the damage and range of smartbombs. I could see some people warping some tanked up apocs right into the blob to break it up that way. Then you could have frigs and cursiers warping in and out in hit and runs on the blob as well. Maybe give apoc a smartbomb bonus to range and damage. I dont know what a good solution would be, but I dont see HP increase doing the trick. It will make small gang fights longer, and a bit of nerf to gate snipers and such but overall i dont see it hurting anything but small to medium sized gangs. And maybe the viability of medium v. large blobs.
Polinus	Posted - 2006.10.20 16:28:00 - [43] HP boost will have NONE positive effects. Fleet battle will take same time. Fleets usually have farmore than enough FP to pop a ship. So they will styill be poped. But other types of combat will be extremely prejudiced. Specially small fleet. When Minmatar had the single important advantage of their art weapons, being able to pop a ship in first voley with less ships concerntrating firepower. TO keep large battles longger.. limit the number os ships that can lock on same ship at same time.
Zarch AlDain Friends of Everyone	Posted - 2006.10.20 16:29:00 - [44] Devs have said several times that they want fights to last longer as they can then add more options and tactics. I guess those options and tactics might make them shorter again...but you never know :) Zarch AlDain
Polinus	Posted - 2006.10.20 16:34:00 - [45] As I said, fight wont take longer. Just because fights will take just larger groups to kill ships in same time. And people that likes small parties will be prejudiced. Want fights to take longer? reduce Rof And shield regeneration and armor repair (so that tanks can still be broken).
Soraya Silvermoon Never'where	Posted - 2006.10.20 16:35:00 - [46] What about halving the range of all turrets.. let EW play a role in fleets again.. Nerfing damage output or alpha isnt going to solve anything.. 20 bses will wtfpwn any bs their locking even you halved their damage and doubled the tank.. I`m pretty sure tall the probs would be gone if TII ammo were removed/nerfed and ew boosted. I dont personally think micromanaging making changes to a few ships and such will alter the way battles are fought right now wich is "lock and activate guns and pray"
Serapis Aote TBC	Posted - 2006.10.20 16:40:00 - [47] Originally by: Soraya Silvermoon What about halving the range of all turrets.. let EW play a role in fleets again.. Nerfing damage output or alpha isnt going to solve anything.. 20 bses will wtfpwn any bs their locking even you halved their damage and doubled the tank.. I`m pretty sure tall the probs would be gone if TII ammo were removed/nerfed and ew boosted. I dont personally think micromanaging making changes to a few ships and such will alter the way battles are fought right now wich is "lock and activate guns and pray" Very good points... The one thing i think everyone can agree on is, doing this really hurts the alpha strike of matari for small gangs, which to the best of my recollection was not a huge problem compared to other snipers (a bit of a problem but not huge). But does nothing to effect the fleet battle problem which is what they were looking to effect.
Plutoinum German Cyberdome Corp Veritas Immortalis	Posted - 2006.10.20 16:56:00 - [48] Edited by: Plutoinum on 20/10/2006 16:58:48 Originally by: Loftur sterki Strange to see plp complain about Mini carrs you should try to be amarr. After 2 yers of training lasers i do less dmg than after my 1lvl of L guns. One can expect 2k ish dmg from Tempest even killin a bs in 1-2 volleys and you complain. Btw its no way to kill a bs in amarr battleships anymore, they only function as a pile in fleet ops, wick are nearly out of game nowadays. I'd be happy to be minmatar. I'd say the limit for a damage modded tempest with skill at level 5 and large projectiles at lvl.5 is maybe 2300 on zero resistances with closerange t1 ammo and a bit over 3100 with close-range t1 ammo ? The tempest has only 6 guns and get 25% plus on damage from the BS skill. The rate of fire of artilleries is low of course. If I look into my log, how often a wrecking hit's occurs, then it will most likely never happen that someone manages a 6-times wrecking salve. E.g if every 20th shot is a wrecking hit, then the chance for a complete wrecking salve is 1/(2020202020*20) with a tempest. Not likely to insta-popp a BS. I can't comment about amarr, can only use t1-amarr stuff, so I stick with minmatar anyway until I die/leave I guess or accumulate 50 mil SP
VulkanXx Minmatar Original Black Plague Blood of the Innocents	Posted - 2006.10.20 17:13:00 - [49] I agree, the HP boosts are pointless and will not solve ANYTHING!
Soraya Silvermoon Never'where	Posted - 2006.10.20 17:18:00 - [50] Edited by: Soraya Silvermoon on 20/10/2006 17:21:53 Originally by: VulkanXx I agree, the HP boosts are pointless and will not solve ANYTHING! I disagree when it comes to capital ships. they could do with a 4 time increase in hp (tank but not sustainable tank) right now its to easy for a small fleet to warp in and "gank" em before support arrives or anything else gets a lock.. a lot of the times the cap ship pilot cant even activate shield/armour rep with the lag before he is dead.. OMG just realized.. when we got that problems on capital ships even I definetly dont see how 50% more hp to bses are going to solve anything.. But tbh more hp is probably good. But might have to up the dps by upping the alpha on the tempests not sure..

Vladic Ka Sniggerdly	Posted - 2006.10.20 19:20:00 - [51] LOL Just something one of my corp m8's found. Quidquid latine dictum sit, altum viditur.
Jim McGregor Caldari	Posted - 2006.10.20 19:23:00 - [52] Originally by: Vladic Ka LOL Just something one of my corp m8's found. Yeah, there is a thread in Ships & Modules with that movie... :) --- Eve Wiki \| Eve Tribune \| Eve Pirate
Vladic Ka Sniggerdly	Posted - 2006.10.20 19:25:00 - [53] Originally by: Jim McGregor Originally by: Vladic Ka LOL Just something one of my corp m8's found. Yeah, there is a thread in Ships & Modules with that movie... :) Backdoor Bandit wins this thread. Quidquid latine dictum sit, altum viditur.
Parallax Error Amarr Imperial Dreams Curatores Veritatis Alliance	Posted - 2006.10.20 19:47:00 - [54] Originally by: Eilie Yes the game was balanced in 2003. Shield Hardeners gave 70% resist and had no stacking penatly either. I flew threw the m0o camps in my Blackbird all the time with 90%+ em/thermal resist and 2x MWD. The problem was that 99% of players were too stupid to think about defense and had the gank-only mentality. Are you actually serious or is that an ironic attempt to point out some of the obvious flaws of 2003 PVP in EVE?
Hakera Anari Higard	Posted - 2006.10.20 19:56:00 - [55] Originally by: Parallax Error Originally by: Eilie Yes the game was balanced in 2003. Shield Hardeners gave 70% resist and had no stacking penatly either. I flew threw the m0o camps in my Blackbird all the time with 90%+ em/thermal resist and 2x MWD. The problem was that 99% of players were too stupid to think about defense and had the gank-only mentality. Are you actually serious or is that an ironic attempt to point out some of the obvious flaws of 2003 PVP in EVE? he was being sarcastic in reply to some comments made earlier that eve was more balanced back then. i find this thread amusing really + the 20 other threads in ships & modules, and that is indeed where the debate should be kept, in tux's thread.
Pesadel0 Vagabundos	Posted - 2006.10.20 20:16:00 - [56] Originally by: Hakera Originally by: Parallax Error Originally by: Eilie Yes the game was balanced in 2003. Shield Hardeners gave 70% resist and had no stacking penatly either. I flew threw the m0o camps in my Blackbird all the time with 90%+ em/thermal resist and 2x MWD. The problem was that 99% of players were too stupid to think about defense and had the gank-only mentality. Are you actually serious or is that an ironic attempt to point out some of the obvious flaws of 2003 PVP in EVE? he was being sarcastic in reply to some comments made earlier that eve was more balanced back then. i find this thread amusing really + the 20 other threads in ships & modules, and that is indeed where the debate should be kept, in tux's thread. The irony is that we received the answer here in this thread
Jim McGregor Caldari	Posted - 2006.10.20 20:19:00 - [57] Originally by: Pesadel0 The irony is that we received the answer here in this thread Well, only because I was acting like a idiot... --- Eve Wiki \| Eve Tribune \| Eve Pirate
Verus Potestas Caldari The I-Win Button	Posted - 2006.10.20 20:21:00 - [58] Originally by: Jim McGregor Originally by: Pesadel0 The irony is that we received the answer here in this thread Well, only because I was acting like a idiot... Hmm, I have a plan. Let's drop Jim on his head and then tie him to his PC to elicit more dev responses! RAWR!111 Sig Hijackz0r!!11 - Immy
Jim McGregor Caldari	Posted - 2006.10.20 20:24:00 - [59] Originally by: Verus Potestas Let's drop Jim on his head and then tie him to his PC to elicit more dev responses! Wont I be unconscious? --- Eve Wiki \| Eve Tribune \| Eve Pirate
Jim McGregor Caldari	Posted - 2006.10.20 20:29:00 - [60] Originally by: Verus Potestas Originally by: Jim McGregor Originally by: Verus Potestas Let's drop Jim on his head and then tie him to his PC to elicit more dev responses! Wont I be unconscious? No, I mean drop you on your head to elicit more idiotness when you wake up. Also, while you're unconcious, it's easier to both tie you to the PC and have our way with you. To have your way with me, all you have to be is female. --- Eve Wiki \| Eve Tribune \| Eve Pirate

Verus Potestas Caldari The I-Win Button	Posted - 2006.10.20 20:36:00 - [61] I hear it's a difficult operation. If it's all the same to you, I'll stick to unconcious RAWR!111 Sig Hijackz0r!!11 - Immy
Magunus The Forsakened Few The ARR0W Project	Posted - 2006.10.20 20:36:00 - [62] Originally by: Jim McGregor Originally by: Verus Potestas Originally by: Jim McGregor Originally by: Verus Potestas Let's drop Jim on his head and then tie him to his PC to elicit more dev responses! Wont I be unconscious? No, I mean drop you on your head to elicit more idiotness when you wake up. Also, while you're unconcious, it's easier to both tie you to the PC and have our way with you. To have your way with me, all you have to be is female. The pulse is optional now? --- In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move. -- Douglas Adams, 'The Restaurant at the End of the Universe'
karrak Ruffians	Posted - 2006.10.20 20:38:00 - [63] Pfft it will never happen. They tryed it once before under Tomb and it was quickly taken away. Once Tux also realise the amount of work direcly linked to such a change they will sc***the idea again However if Tux is more stubborn than Tomb and they actually continue work on this they better bee prepared to redo every gun, ship, cargo hold, drone bay, mission, npc spawn, etc etc Allot of weapons and setup will virtually bee useless over night, require'ng huge reworks. Who inn they'r right mind would use blaster setups or artillery setups after this? The list just goes on and on. Oh and Oveur has it ever ocurred to you that people have tested this inn the past? Actually giving people something to base their "harsh" words from.. Tanking concord for 9 minuttes with a crap setup is all fun i agree, but it really isnt that hot for game balance. Im all for prolonged combat but i doupt this is a solution that you can actualy pull however IF you are prepared to basically rework everything** inn this game all over again the idea might actually bee good, doing so without it would lead to a dissaster without proportions.
gobergin Minmatar Sebiestor tribe	Posted - 2006.10.20 20:47:00 - [64] Originally by: Jippy Edited by: Jippy on 20/10/2006 11:42:13 The truth of the matter is, and despite the ignorance that people will put in this thread. If your end-game goal is BS/Carrier/Dread, you have no reason not to go with Gallente. End of story. Right now there is no reason to go any other race except for the smaller ships, but even then the Gallente are fine all the way through the game. I personally don't care, but it is the unbiased truth. Bah. I chose Minmatar because of their backstory, not because I thought they would be the 'l33test' nation. I thought they sounded a lot like the guys in Alien Nation (which seem to have inspired the race in Babylon5).... and I never DID like slavery. Of COURSE they're underdogs, but we'll never give up, never surrender and DEFINITELY never make peace with those arrogant Godkissing Slavers of the Amarr Empire and their lackeys.


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