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DRONE BALANCE suggestion

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Tryaz Improvised Tactics 95	Posted - 2015.03.23 00:18:10 - [1] - Quote TLDR: Introduce Drone Control Channels which function like Turret/Launcher Hardpoints dictating the number of drones which can be controlled simultaneously. reserved for fleshing out the idea I think the addition of Drone Control Channels has far-reaching and nuanced implications for the weapons system which I hope you will see for yourselves. I will add more to this post shortly but I think just the bare bones suggestion might appeal to some of you. Narrator of Chronicles of New Eden, the EVE audiobook series. Listen at www.soundcloud.com/chroniclesofneweden
joecuster AQUILA INC Verge of Collapse 12	Posted - 2015.03.23 00:29:27 - [2] - Quote I think you meant to post this in the bad idea thread.
Rowells ANZAC ALLIANCE Fidelas Constans 2155	Posted - 2015.03.23 00:35:11 - [3] - Quote It's a very vague limitation. Sounds a lot like bandwidth to me.
Tryaz Improvised Tactics 95	Posted - 2015.03.23 00:41:00 - [4] - Quote Rowells wrote: It's a very vague limitation. Sounds a lot like bandwidth to me. I hope you'll allow me to clarify. Bandwidth functions for Drones like PG&CPU do for Turrets&Launchers. I'm proposing that Drone Control Channels would be like Hardpoints. The lack of an attribute for drones like Hardpoints is akin to having every ship able to fit up to 5 turrets or launchers, it flattens and obscures the tactical landscape and leads to strange fitting choices Narrator of Chronicles of New Eden, the EVE audiobook series. Listen at www.soundcloud.com/chroniclesofneweden
Aeryn Maricadie Periphery Bound 7	Posted - 2015.03.23 00:47:14 - [5] - Quote This would basically destroy most drone boats. Remember Gallente isn't the only faction that uses drones, just because Ishtars are OP doesn't mean drones in general are.
Tryaz Improvised Tactics 95	Posted - 2015.03.23 00:54:13 - [6] - Quote Aeryn Maricadie wrote: This would basically destroy most drone boats. Remember Gallente isn't the only faction that uses drones, just because Ishtars are OP doesn't mean drones in general are. Thanks Aeryn, I wasn't actually aiming for the Ishtar at all. I'm a drone pilot myself so believe me it's not my intention to destroy drone boats. It is my reckoning that if any ship has lots of Drone Control Channels it would be a "drone boat". I don't see that this needs to hurt drone boats at all. What I would hope to see if this change were implemented is a Vexor that can deploy a focused drone loadout, rather than being pushed to deploy the crazy mixed flight of: 2xHeavy, 2xMedium, 1xLight Scout - which has such sketchy damage application to so many targets. After this change the vexors stats could be re-adjusted to perhaps allow it to deploy a smaller flight of bonused Heay drones or a larger flight of bonused Mediums. Narrator of Chronicles of New Eden, the EVE audiobook series. Listen at www.soundcloud.com/chroniclesofneweden
Colette Kassia Kassia Industrial Supply 107	Posted - 2015.03.23 01:28:11 - [7] - Quote I can see where you're going with this. But I don't think it would greatly improve anything. The only situations this would affect are when you have a ship with drone-bay volume and bandwidth for less than a full set of larger drones. A "channels" limit would simply restrict the number of smaller drones you could launch. Has there ever been a problem with people launching excessive numbers of small drones? Not really. The limit for five, from the Drones skill, has always been adequate for keeping swarm sizes manageable. So what you seem to be asking for is the Drones-skill limiting mechanism to be removed and replaced by a hull attribute (which may or may not be Five). -¦0. I don't see any gain or loss from this change, other than requiring another drone boat rebalance from devs who already have a full plate.
Aeryn Maricadie Periphery Bound 8	Posted - 2015.03.23 01:43:34 - [8] - Quote Tryaz wrote: Aeryn Maricadie wrote: This would basically destroy most drone boats. Remember Gallente isn't the only faction that uses drones, just because Ishtars are OP doesn't mean drones in general are. Thanks Aeryn, I wasn't actually aiming for the Ishtar at all. I'm a drone pilot myself so believe me it's not my intention to destroy drone boats. It is my reckoning that if any ship had lots of Drone Control Channels it would be a "drone boat". I don't see that this needs to hurt drone boats at all. What I would hope to see if this change were implemented is a Vexor that can deploy a focused drone loadout, rather than being pushed to deploy the crazy mixed flight of: 2xHeavy, 2xMedium, 1xLight Scout - which has such sketchy damage application to so many targets. After this change the Vexor's stats could be re-adjusted to perhaps allow it to deploy a smaller flight of bonused Heavy drones or a larger flight of bonused Mediums. Again you are forgetting that there are other factions with drones aside from gallente, the weird line-up you are complaining about falls on deaf Amarr ears since it is caused by Gallente getting 25 more bandwidth and hence more tactical options and dps. We Amarr Drone boat pilots like our high slots thank you very much they are good for neuting Gallente active tanks.
Lugh Crow-Slave 942	Posted - 2015.03.23 01:55:26 - [9] - Quote so how is this not bandwith? even your explanation didn't make seance also why do they need a balance they are balanced just some of the ships that use them aren't Fuel block colors? Missiles for Caldari T3?
Rawketsled Generic Corp Name 142	Posted - 2015.03.23 02:51:54 - [10] - Quote Every ship comes with five channels with the exception of carriers, supers, and the Guadian Vexor. I see your proposal as balance drone use by using two levers (channels and bandwidth) instead of one. Really not sure how this actually allows for finer balance. Can you write out a full example for us?

Tryaz Improvised Tactics 95	Posted - 2015.03.23 08:04:41 - [11] - Quote Rawketsled wrote: Every ship comes with five channels with the exception of carriers, supers, and the Guardian Vexor. I see your proposal as balance drone use by using two levers (channels and bandwidth) instead of one. Really not sure how this actually allows for finer balance. Can you write out a full example for us? Thank you, yes I'll write one out this afternoon when I'm home. Narrator of Chronicles of New Eden, the EVE audiobook series. Listen at www.soundcloud.com/chroniclesofneweden
El Creepo Sex Machineguns 12	Posted - 2015.03.23 08:39:27 - [12] - Quote How can people that play Eve be confused by such a simple suggestion?
Tiddle Jr Galvanized Inc. 84	Posted - 2015.03.23 09:19:00 - [13] - Quote I do have both Drone and Gal cruiser trained at level 5 which means i could launch in total 5 small hob's at once. So now i do have drone channel (drone hard point) on my Vexor. Question is what exactly has changed vs i don't have drone channel on my Vexor. Am i able to launch more hob's at once? I don't think so. Am i limited to launch 5 hob's at once? [ put your comments here]
elitatwo Eve Minions Poopstain Removal Team 596	Posted - 2015.03.23 11:03:30 - [14] - Quote Rawketsled wrote: ....and the Guardian Vexor.... ..which come from a time when the Dominix could field 15 heavy drones at once and is a tournament boat. signature
Mournful Conciousness Embers Children TOHA Conglomerate 868	Posted - 2015.03.23 11:18:35 - [15] - Quote Combat drones are not imbalanced. sentry drones are imbalanced, and then only because they can assist a drone bunny. most combat utility drones are not powerful enough to be useful. ecm drones annoy the hell out of everyone, but they're probably on balance ok. Embers Children is recruiting carefully selected pilots who like wormholes, green killboards and the sweet taste of tears. You can convo me in game or join the chat "TOHA Lounge".
El Creepo Sex Machineguns 12	Posted - 2015.03.23 16:50:57 - [16] - Quote Tiddle Jr wrote: I do have both Drone and Gal cruiser trained at level 5 which means i could launch in total 5 small hob's at once. So now i do have drone channel (drone hard point) on my Vexor. Question is what exactly has changed vs i don't have drone channel on my Vexor. Am i able to launch more hob's at once? I don't think so. Am i limited to launch 5 hob's at once? [ put your comments here] Right... he means - a Harbinger might have 50bw, currently that means 2 heavys, 5 meds or less. In his system you could say the Harb has 50bw and 3 drone channels. Which would mean 2 heavys, 3 meds or 3 lights. It could never have more than 3 drones in space. Or a domi might have 125bw and 12 channels. Meaning 5 heavys as usual but going to lower bw drones you could launch 12 meds (totaling 120bw) though it would need a new drone skill for 6+ drones. That would be op yeah, just an example. You could take Ishtars down to 75bw but give them 8 channels to try and drive them away from sentrys and still have a nice dps. Its a fine suggestion which wouldnt really break anything existing and could give more balance option. Technically its already in there and all ships just have 5 drone channels (exept guardian vex) and DCUs add a drone channel. I'm not for it nor am I against it. The only real problem I could see is with multiple ships having more drones in space it increases server load.
Mournful Conciousness Embers Children TOHA Conglomerate 870	Posted - 2015.03.23 16:55:12 - [17] - Quote elitatwo wrote: Rawketsled wrote: ....and the Guardian Vexor.... ..which come from a time when the Dominix could field 15 heavy drones at once and is a tournament boat. And at last count there was only one in existence. Embers Children is recruiting carefully selected pilots who like wormholes, green killboards and the sweet taste of tears. You can convo me in game or join the chat "TOHA Lounge".
CompleteFailure DAWGS Corp. Phoebe Freeport Republic 224	Posted - 2015.03.23 17:15:45 - [18] - Quote Unnecessarily complicated. I think what you're basically proposing is to allow any number of drones, up to the ships maximum bandwidth, and then tweak individual drone bandwidth usages and ship bandwidth capacities to keep things balanced. Interesting idea, I don't hate it. It would have to be balanced really well to work though. I think it would mean a LOT of changes to the numbers for a lot of ships. I don't know that the amount of effort required would really be all that beneficial. Plus, the one huge downside would be adding objects in space, which CCP have gone to great lengths to reduce in the last few years to ease server load.
Agondray Avenger Mercenaries VOID Intergalactic Forces 260	Posted - 2015.03.23 17:48:54 - [19] - Quote Aeryn Maricadie wrote: Tryaz wrote: Aeryn Maricadie wrote: This would basically destroy most drone boats. Remember Gallente isn't the only faction that uses drones, just because Ishtars are OP doesn't mean drones in general are. Thanks Aeryn, I wasn't actually aiming for the Ishtar at all. I'm a drone pilot myself so believe me it's not my intention to destroy drone boats. It is my reckoning that if any ship had lots of Drone Control Channels it would be a "drone boat". I don't see that this needs to hurt drone boats at all. What I would hope to see if this change were implemented is a Vexor that can deploy a focused drone loadout, rather than being pushed to deploy the crazy mixed flight of: 2xHeavy, 2xMedium, 1xLight Scout - which has such sketchy damage application to so many targets. After this change the Vexor's stats could be re-adjusted to perhaps allow it to deploy a smaller flight of bonused Heavy drones or a larger flight of bonused Mediums. Again you are forgetting that there are other factions with drones aside from gallente, the weird line-up you are complaining about falls on deaf Amarr ears since it is caused by Gallente getting 25 more bandwidth and hence more tactical options and dps. We Amarr Drone boat pilots like our high slots thank you very much they are good for neuting Gallente active tanks. We should also add Navy Vexors to the OP list since they also get the bandwidth as a BS, there is a reason it is called the poor man's Ishtar. I know what your talking about here with the bandwidth of a battleship but for those not so inclined its the bandwidth to deploy 5 heavies, because some battleships only have the bandwidth to deploy 5 lights. I know bandwidth was made to limit ships and the drones that they can use, but it needs to die. I lived in a time wo where if you had the skills (which were also added at a later date) to control 5 drones and you had 5 drones of any size in your bay, you can deploy those 5 rather small, mid, or large. As for Completefailure regarding deployable, CCP as only added more over the years with our deployable hangers and other devices.....that's not exactly easing server load when you warp into a system and see them used as billboards every where or giant space phalics "Sarcasm is the Recourse of a weak mind." -Dr. Smith
Mournful Conciousness Embers Children TOHA Conglomerate 870	Posted - 2015.03.23 18:21:28 - [20] - Quote The "server load" argument is a red herring. It can be solved with some re-engineering of code to increase parallelism. It's a lazy answer by CCP. Embers Children is recruiting carefully selected pilots who like wormholes, green killboards and the sweet taste of tears. You can convo me in game or join the chat "TOHA Lounge".

Steppa Musana Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic 34	Posted - 2015.03.23 18:27:29 - [21] - Quote Nvm...
Tiddle Jr Galvanized Inc. 84	Posted - 2015.03.23 22:15:09 - [22] - Quote 12 drones at once sounds very cool and over powered. The author promised more detailed proposal of this feature, still waiting.
Aeryn Maricadie Periphery Bound 10	Posted - 2015.03.23 22:21:11 - [23] - Quote I'm still wondering why drones need rebalancing, aside from Ishtars/Navy Vexors they seem fine to me. A drone launch hotkey would be awesome though.
Kitty Bear Disturbed Friends Of Diazepam Disturbed Acquaintance 1435	Posted - 2015.03.23 23:01:36 - [24] - Quote Tryaz wrote: Rowells wrote: It's a very vague limitation. Sounds a lot like bandwidth to me. I hope you'll allow me to clarify. Bandwidth functions for Drones like PG&CPU do for Turrets&Launchers. I'm proposing that Drone Control Channels would be like Hardpoints. The lack of an attribute for drones like Hardpoints is akin to having every ship able to fit up to 5 turrets or launchers, it flattens and obscures the tactical landscape and leads to strange fitting choices train drones level 1, you can control 1 drone train drones level 2, you can control 2 drones etc etc etc duplication/redundancy does not improve game play
Tryaz Improvised Tactics 95	Posted - 2015.03.24 00:15:37 - [25] - Quote Thank you to all respondents and contributors. I will expand upon my OP and attempt to answer all posts up to now over the next hour. Narrator of Chronicles of New Eden, the EVE audiobook series. Listen at www.soundcloud.com/chroniclesofneweden
Tusker Crazinski Delta vane Corp. Mordus Angels 48	Posted - 2015.03.24 01:04:57 - [26] - Quote Aeryn Maricadie wrote: This would basically destroy most drone boats. Remember Gallente isn't the only faction that uses drones, just because Ishtars are OP doesn't mean drones in general are. they are, if not ishtar's it'll be domies and VNI, if not domies then guristas.... all of them, if not guristas than. Now I know the alliance tourney is not a good metric for game balance, but the fact that last year theres was all but 4-5 setups that didn't use drones for DPS speaks volumes about how strong they are in the current state of the game. and It was not just ishtars and seturies. VNIs, Gilas, Dominii, Eosii, were all just as bad.
Aeryn Maricadie Periphery Bound 10	Posted - 2015.03.24 01:07:10 - [27] - Quote Tusker Crazinski wrote: Aeryn Maricadie wrote: This would basically destroy most drone boats. Remember Gallente isn't the only faction that uses drones, just because Ishtars are OP doesn't mean drones in general are. they are, if not ishtar's it'll be domies and VNI, if not domies then guristas.... all of them, if not guristas than. Now I know the alliance tourney is not a good metric for game balance, but the fact that last year theres was all but 4-5 setups that didn't use drones for DPS speaks volumes about how strong they are in the current state of the game. and It was not just ishtars and seturies. VNIs, Gilas, Dominii, Eosii, were all just as bad. There's a bunch of Amarr boats that would be messed up real bad by this proposal.
Tryaz Improvised Tactics 95	Posted - 2015.03.24 01:16:07 - [28] - Quote Here is a case study so that you can see in real terms what I am proposing. I would appreciate your feedback. I've also added this to the OP. -CLARIFICATION- I don't want to begin a discussion about the stats or relative power of individual drones. (yet) Case Study: some of you have been asking for an example of exactly what I might mean so I will attempt to oblige you. Let's compare the Vexor against the Thorax using the All Level V character on EFT [v2.27]. A naked Thorax equipped with 5x Heavy Neutron Blaster II with Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M outputs 318dps A naked Vexor with a drone flight consisting of 2x Ogre II, 2x Hammerhead II and 1x Hobgoblin II outputs 315dps - a fair comparison of the max damage brawling loadout of the turrets on a Hybrid ship against the drones on a Drone ship I trust you'll agree. My reason for suggesting the aforementioned changes is because of the following: The engagement envelope of the Neutron Thorax looks like this: -Signature Resolution: 125m -Tracking: 0.206 -Optimal Range: 2250m + 6250m Falloff As long as the Thorax pilot can fit and fly to engage targets that fall within these parameters he/she can reasonably expect to consistently apply most of their damage. The engagement envelope of the Vexor looks like this: -Signature Resolution: 400m OR 125m OR 25m -Tracking: 0.54 OR 0.696 OR 2.178 -Optimal Range: 5250m+5000m OR 5250m+3000m OR 2625m+2000m The Vexor pilot has an (imo) unnecessarily messy job fitting and flying, and choosing engagements to reliably and consistently apply most of his/her damage and is likely, much of the time, to be losing most of the damage from one or more drone size After the inclusion of Drone Control Channels I would prefer to see a Vexor whose high-damage drone flight consists of Hammerhead IIs only - this does not prevent the Vexor pilot from fielding other drones as his/her fitting fancy finds. (as it happens a flight of Hammerhead IIs able to output 315dps from the current Vexor would consist of 6.5 drones - see 'clarification' above) I wish for drone pilots to be able to achieve the same elegance and focus of engagement envelope and fitting philosophy that pilots of other weapons are allowed. Narrator of Chronicles of New Eden, the EVE audiobook series. Listen at www.soundcloud.com/chroniclesofneweden
Aeryn Maricadie Periphery Bound 10	Posted - 2015.03.24 01:38:16 - [29] - Quote Tryaz wrote: Here is a case study so that you can see in real terms what I am proposing. I would appreciate your feedback. I've also added this to the OP. -CLARIFICATION- I don't want to begin a discussion about the stats or relative power of individual drones. (yet) Case Study: some of you have been asking for an example of exactly what I might mean so I will attempt to oblige you. Let's compare the Vexor against the Thorax using the All Level V character on EFT [v2.27]. A naked Thorax equipped with 5x Heavy Neutron Blaster II with Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M outputs 318dps A naked Vexor with a drone flight consisting of 2x Ogre II, 2x Hammerhead II and 1x Hobgoblin II outputs 315dps - a fair comparison of the max damage brawling loadout of the turrets on a Hybrid ship against the drones on a Drone ship I trust you'll agree. My reason for suggesting the aforementioned changes is because of the following: The engagement envelope of the Neutron Thorax looks like this: -Signature Resolution: 125m -Tracking: 0.206 -Optimal Range: 2250m + 6250m Falloff As long as the Thorax pilot can fit and fly to engage targets that fall within these parameters he/she can reasonably expect to consistently apply most of their damage. The engagement envelope of the Vexor looks like this: -Signature Resolution: 400m OR 125m OR 25m -Tracking: 0.54 OR 0.696 OR 2.178 -Optimal Range: 5250m+5000m OR 5250m+3000m OR 2625m+2000m The Vexor pilot has an (imo) unnecessarily messy job fitting and flying, and choosing engagements to reliably and consistently apply most of his/her damage and is likely, much of the time, to be losing most of the damage from one or more drone size After the inclusion of Drone Control Channels I would prefer to see a Vexor whose high-damage drone flight consists of Hammerhead IIs only - this does not prevent the Vexor pilot from fielding other drones as his/her fitting fancy finds. (as it happens a flight of Hammerhead IIs able to output 315dps from the current Vexor would consist of 6.5 drones - see 'clarification' above) I wish for drone pilots to be able to achieve the same elegance and focus of engagement envelope and fitting philosophy that pilots of other weapons are allowed. Wait, wait, wait. You started this thread because you think Gallente drone boats need a buff? Because asking for the same dps with better application is a buff. If you don't like launching multiple drone types no one is stopping you from launching five hammerheads. You certainly can't just compare raw dps between drones and turrets like that, that's like apples to potatoes man. As far as drone balance in general, when there is a whole race of drone boats that is fairly well balanced, I don't think it is correct to say that drones are the problem because of an imbalance in another race or pirate faction ships. Drone launch hotkey is needed too.
Rawketsled Generic Corp Name 148	Posted - 2015.03.24 01:41:03 - [30] - Quote Give us an example where you choose 3x Ogre IIs. Nothing is currently stopping you from fitting that. And from my understanding, nothing will prevent you from doing so with channels.



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