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Why dont we do away with jump gates?

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Dr Borgia	Posted - 2006.10.22 00:26:00 - [31] I'd just like to say that I like the idea and the possibilites it presents. I've always thought that the jump gate frame of mind was a weakness in game design put in as a crutch for lazy players. Free the universe, down with jump gates.
Ashira Twilight	Posted - 2006.10.22 01:24:00 - [32] I love the idea, I've thought that this game should have the ability to just ignore gates. You could add fuel usage(make it tied to the mass of the ship), and when jumping into a system, make the spot you warped to totally visible to anyone that is paying attention to the scanner, AND possibly make you helpless/semi-helpless for a short period of time. Make it so that your cap is at ZERO when you come in, and also perhaps have modules go offline for a relatively short time(or just offline period). We could still have the gates for cheap travel. The problem I see with the idea, is that we want it to ignore gatecamps, but it MUST have some risk involved(as well as a material cost) or nobody will use gates, and alliances won't be able to defend their space. I've been playing for 6 months or so, and I have never gone below .3 sec status systems(and let me tell you, those have been some short trips, followed by poddings). 0.0 systems just aren't accessable to the likes of me, because of the gatecamps.
Razin	Posted - 2006.10.22 02:25:00 - [33] Originally by: loony thezoon How could anyone ever intercept anyone? This is not 'system wide combat' its no combat at all. Stupid idea. Yes I read your post, thought about it, and its still a stupid idea. Sounds like a carebear charter. If you don't like eve, why play it? Have you thought about scanning? Ever seen a cynosural field? N00b. ...
M4sterm1nd DarkStar 1 Ascendant Frontier	Posted - 2006.10.22 11:03:00 - [34] Originally by: Splagada super highspeed fights in warp space, where relative velocity has to be adjusted with some real time control on the ship it'd be totally awesome :p Eve as a platform shooter, huh? Let's not and say we did, mkay? Headline one-liners: Suicidal Teen Kills Twin By Mistake! (My sig left after Eldo called her fat)
ThaMa Gebir Gallente Raddick Explorations Myriad Alliance	Posted - 2006.10.22 11:41:00 - [35] Just to add to this; "Constellation sovereignty", Hmm difficult unless you actually control gates. Sooooo.... why not just constellation-constellation gates and then between the solar systems with "normal" jump drives or even "inter-solar-warp drives". Then you have the main chokepoints lost (if you jump into a constellation you land in one of the systems or such) and you also have controlability for the alliances. (Depending on how it is implemented) Also local would be pointless again and system scanning improvements would make it a bit more fun. Like or no? There will be no survivors now that i'm around - Xorus pwnt - Immy
Nev Clavain Wise Guys	Posted - 2006.10.22 11:48:00 - [36] Originally by: DubanFP Edited by: DubanFP on 21/10/2006 15:57:35 Originally by: Marine HK4861 Originally by: Cinnamon Red Originally by: Celeste Coeval like cynosaural fields? This is not what the OP was suggesting. A C-field needs a ship at the destination that is effectively creating a temporary and expensive to fuel stargate that a very limited class of ships can use. I know this is missing the point slightly, but don't titans have the ability to jump other ships without the use of a cynosural field? Or does that ability need a cynosural field as a target as well? 1) Titans do need a cynosural field to use the Jump Gate Generator 2) Titans are soo increadably expensive that the first Titan wasn't built for over 9 months "just a few weeks ago" after they were released in-game. That first titan built by ASCN "an Avatar" is the only one that is known to exist. It's never going to become a common form of travel. Also like it's said before, that would make EVE online into Elite online, not even same game. Elite online would be a better, more interesting game in my opinion :P, At least then you would actually need a military force capable of patrolling your own territory to hold said territory. Rather than the current system of only needing to hold one or two chokepoints to section off massive areas of space. You want to protect a mining op, then you need to protect the system they are in, not some choke 15 jumps away. Would make the political landscape alot more diverse I believe. But still, its never gonna happen is it Sig removed. Please keep sigs to 400x120 pixels and 24000 bytes in size or less. -Kaemonn
Securion Wolfheart Caldari Semper Fidelis Industries	Posted - 2006.10.22 12:29:00 - [37] Originally by: Nev Clavain Originally by: DubanFP Edited by: DubanFP on 21/10/2006 15:57:35 Originally by: Marine HK4861 Originally by: Cinnamon Red Originally by: Celeste Coeval like cynosaural fields? This is not what the OP was suggesting. A C-field needs a ship at the destination that is effectively creating a temporary and expensive to fuel stargate that a very limited class of ships can use. I know this is missing the point slightly, but don't titans have the ability to jump other ships without the use of a cynosural field? Or does that ability need a cynosural field as a target as well? 1) Titans do need a cynosural field to use the Jump Gate Generator 2) Titans are soo increadably expensive that the first Titan wasn't built for over 9 months "just a few weeks ago" after they were released in-game. That first titan built by ASCN "an Avatar" is the only one that is known to exist. It's never going to become a common form of travel. Also like it's said before, that would make EVE online into Elite online, not even same game. Elite online would be a better, more interesting game in my opinion :P, At least then you would actually need a military force capable of patrolling your own territory to hold said territory. Rather than the current system of only needing to hold one or two chokepoints to section off massive areas of space. You want to protect a mining op, then you need to protect the system they are in, not some choke 15 jumps away. Would make the political landscape alot more diverse I believe. But still, its never gonna happen is it I wouldnt be too sure about that it will never happen. Many of the stuff ppl find anoying right now is due to the gates; Traffic control, gatecampers, enormous lagg and node deaths, forced to pass high traffic systems (increasing lagg even more), blobs at gates, no belt patroling, no recon, no true exploring, etc. Its not even hard to do; Elite had it in the 80:s, run by a commodore 64, programmed by one guy, in 64k memory. And it would free up ALOT of hardware to do other stuff with. -----====----- "When you come slam bang up against trouble, it never looks half as bad if you face up to it." - John Wayne
Viktor Fyretracker Caldari Worms Corp	Posted - 2006.10.22 13:46:00 - [38] loss of gates would not make defense of space impossible it would just mean corps would have to work for it rather then play whack-a-mole at the nearest chokepoints.
MrTriggerHappy Caldari Priory Of The Lemon R0ADKILL	Posted - 2006.10.23 00:54:00 - [39] Basically the idea deserves some merit, however of course flawed and would require a whole rewrite in the whole mechanics of eve. The best approach (imo) would be to introduce a new class of ships, that have the ability to jump. A new form of fleet support that wont be dependent upon using stargates, handy for jumping in along side capships for support. Be it that the ship is frig sized, cruiser sized or BS sized, at least creating a new class of ships would help make use of those jump drive skills (because lets admit it, they are pretty useless, unless you happen to use your cap ship on a daily basis)
Bohoba Caldari The Dark Angles	Posted - 2006.10.23 01:45:00 - [40] Funny I was just working on this as a proposal  JoveÆs: release new technology While The Jove are not well know to the major populate The Caldaria Navy Has acquired breaking technology that will change how we travel. At this time The Cald navy is not saying how and what was traded to get the technology but is is a know fact that the joves have a great need for knowlage, and and all Testing on new ship class has all paste with flying colors this is not to say no lives were lost as a few brave solders will never be know if alive or where they are. Some are saying they pilots were traded to the joves as it was 1 of each race mal and female and some say they were not well trained but rather came from strong bloodlines. Class: Wormhole Jumpers Frigate class Cruiser class Battleship class Carrier Class Dread Class Mother ship class Titian Class Have all past final stages of testing. Patens and Tech rights are in the works with the ammar, Gall, mimm, what is known at this time is they will be skilled to wormhole jump gang members to any location that they have been trained for with limits on the numbers and how far each ship class can wormhole others. This new technology will open doors for elite forces to show up instantly but not without warning the wormhole ring when active can be picked up in local, and if appropriate forces are in system they can destroy the ring sending the wormhole travelers back to the original location and in some cases ships have had damage Frigs get lost and end up in the cloning factory. While Jump drive does exsit it is limited to the need of a cynofield to be in system that you are jumping to this new technology is in the ship itself they ship is capable of projecting a wormhole ring and activating it then either sending a group through or tagging along for the ride. More information is coming in atm and will try to update.. This is somthing to think about Get Into the Game it makes it fun for all
MrTriggerHappy Caldari Priory Of The Lemon R0ADKILL	Posted - 2006.10.23 14:51:00 - [41] IIRC there was a storyline a while back about 1 of the npc empire factions trying to develop a prototype jump drive for battleships? Perhaps when and if Tech 2 bs's get entered into the game they could have the ability to use jump drives?
DJ Xod Minmatar	Posted - 2006.10.23 15:02:00 - [42] Originally by: MrTriggerHappy IIRC there was a storyline a while back about 1 of the npc empire factions trying to develop a prototype jump drive for battleships? Perhaps when and if Tech 2 bs's get entered into the game they could have the ability to use jump drives? How about it has a 1 in 10 chance of your ship getting destroyed if used? Oh and hi Trigger EveTV is coming!! Join us in IRC!! irc://irc.coldfront.net - #evetv
Dave White Beagle Corp	Posted - 2006.10.23 15:09:00 - [43] To sum it up: Yes please --------------------------
TOGAKURE Daisuke	Posted - 2006.10.24 09:25:00 - [44] Great idea, been thinking about it myself a lot lately too. Have between system jumps always target the Sun, you would enter the Sun's orbit of course from the direction you came from. This should cause a gravity effect that's a valid warp target. Bigger (more visible radius on overview) if there's lots of traffic. Dissipate as needed over time. Now if we think about the vast distances between the systems, you realize that people jumping from wherever from system x to system y, they'll almost end up in the same spot of the Sun's orbit. Then make some intelligent decisions about max jump ranges. This will cause natural highways to form since the autopilot is going to plot your route taking account your max jump distance. You could even introduce some instability in the interstellar medium so that the travel paths could be 'shaped' a little bit. Keep some gates, 30-40, in the empire for trade routes. No gates between factions or only locked gates :P
Mecinia Lua Galactic Express The Guardian Coalition	Posted - 2006.10.24 09:27:00 - [45] Oddly enough originally in alpha I think it was there weren't any stargates. They were added to increase combat opportunities because the devs noticed how hard it was to find and attack other players. I'm not sure I'd do entirely away with them, but I do believe they need to relieve congestion by putting more stargates and thus creating more paths to 0.0. Galactic Express Recruitment Post
Fark Gallente Soul Collectors	Posted - 2006.10.24 09:36:00 - [46] Originally by: Tetani Iradani Originally by: Darksaber64x Without gates it'd be IMPOSSIBLE to defend your territory, with people juming into your system from every direction :/ It wouldnt be impossible at all! You'd just have to go into the system, and find whoever invades! Instead of lazily waiting at a stargate for hours :P I think going out looking for your invaders will be more common place in Kali with system-wide asteroid belts, But they have to get past the bored gate campers first - - - - - - - - - Lister: The red, green and blue alert signs are all flashing. What the smeg does that mean? Kryten: Well either we're under attack sir, or we're having a disco.
Roshan longshot Gallente Order of the Arrow	Posted - 2006.10.24 10:46:00 - [47] First "I said it was a pipe dream" I know its way too late for this to be done. Second, if your a "!" your beneath my feet, I hold you below the level of a **ant. Third, You all know that we used to jump into system away from the gates right? You camped gates to keep people in system, not out of it.... Fourth, I am by no means a "Carebear" I am a loyal player of a game called "Eve-online" Fifth...oh what the heck...to many gankers in this thread... I remember chaseing sombody in a apoc, we had two blackbirds and a Thorax. We chased this guy from one end of the system to the other. We finally got him pined and podded. He started smack talking, so he died. An hour later GM White is there saying we were accused of griefing the apoc pilot..... Free-form Professions, ensure no limetations on professions. Be a trader, fighter, industialist, researcher, hunter pirate** or mixture of them all. [i]As read from the original box.
Durvaul Caldari SAS Strike Team SMASH Alliance	Posted - 2006.10.24 10:48:00 - [48] I think its a very good idea to be honest Could open up the game abit
Heroldyn	Posted - 2006.10.24 10:51:00 - [49] every change that would make insta bookmarks useless would be bad, since soo many people invested so much time or isk into them.
Wild Rho Amarr Black Omega Security	Posted - 2006.10.24 11:32:00 - [50] Edited by: Wild Rho on 24/10/2006 11:35:14 When I first read the idea I just thought NO straight away because I figured it would ruin several aspects of Eve but reading through some of the replies and modifications to the idea that other players have posted I realised this actually has allot of potential to make things much more interesting (IF it is implemented and balanced correctly). Anywho, my take on it (yes this post is inspired by other playersÆ ideas and I don't pretend it isn't)... - Stargate network remains pretty much as it is with no real modifications. - Different sized jump drive modules can be bought for the different classes of ship (much like Abs and MWDs). Unlike capital jump drives these can be used in Empire space. However to prevent abuse (i.e. fitting one on a capital ship to access Empire) there are penalties for fitting the wrong sized mod to a ship. Fitting oversized mods are extremely tough/impossible due to fitting requirements. Fitting undersized mods mean the ships effective jump range is drastically reduced (as an example fitting even a BS jump drive to a capital ship means that the ship doesn't have the jump range to reach even the edge of the system it is in). - These jump drives have a lower jump range than the capital ship jump drives but have the advantage of not requiring cyno field generators. Instead when the ship jumps into a system it arrives at the sun or a random planet (not moons or any other celestial object). The ship is also cloaked for a minute like when jumping through the stargate (allowing the jumping in pilot time to load the system). - The small jump drives consume fuel like capital jump drives, they are also fairly inefficient compared to capital ship drives meaning more fuel per jump for their size. - The module requires 90% cap to be activated and cannot be used again until the ship recharges this amount. - Jump drive does not work when warp scrambled or trapped in a warp bubble. - A tech 2 version could now exist for the final frigate classes that havenÆt yet been given a tech 2 niche role (deep recon) whereby the frigate is able to jump much further, using less cap and less fuel. However it cannot warp cloaked like Covert ops frigates but can be useful for gathering some quick intel via scans and so on. - A possible additional module could be added that allows you to specify what planet you wish to come out of jump at, with a further command ship related one that lets everyone in the gang jump to the same planet. Ok, now with any idea it's more or less impossible to work out what WILL happen but lets take a look at some of the possibilities. Travel... This will have an impact on travelling; there is no doubt about it. The level of impact however is extremely debatable. - The stargate network will still be intact and so you can still get from A to B without having to compromise fittings, pay for fuel or any of the other fuss associated with using a jump drive. However travel will generally take longer and you are restricted in what routes you can take. - Choke points become much less of an issue now because if one area is constantly camped, people can simply use jump drives to bypass it (at a cost in fuel and fittings). However due to the limited range of the jump drives and possible limits of fuel (capacity and cost) they cannot simply jump from A to B in complete safety and back again. I think this will encourage more roaming forms of piracy as well as distribute camps more as they now need to cover planets as well as gates. In fleet battles as well it also may eliminate or reduce the stand offs where neither side can jump through into a system due to being killed while loading. It may also shift the locations of battles for a nice change of pace. It may also create more concentrated hotspots in any rare areas where the jump drives lack range to bypass a system; whether or not this is a good thing is a matter of opinion. I have the body of a supermodel. I just can't remember where I left it.
Wild Rho Amarr Black Omega Security	Posted - 2006.10.24 11:32:00 - [51] Edited by: Wild Rho on 24/10/2006 11:35:50 Combat... Allot of pvp in Eve occurs at stargates and stations with some (to a much lesser degree) occurring at asteroid belts (primarily through piracy actions). It's obvious why, considering that EVERYONE has to use stargates and sooner or later you have to dock at a station for something. Jump drives will clearly change this situation as ships can now enter a system with the sun or a planet as their origin instead of a stargate. This has both good and bad aspects... - The standoff many fleets on opposite sides of a stargate face because of jump in issues with fleet combat would be reduced and while there risk is not gone (enemy stationing tacklers at the planets etc) this opens up more tactical ways of entering the system (i.e. through diversion, making the enemy think your fleet is jumping in from one direction and then coming in from another. This also has the added effect of making it very hard to lock a system down for the defender; again this being good or bad really comes down to which side you're on at the time. The choke point issue also affects piracy type actions. Personally I think it will more shift what gates are camped on a much more frequent basis than the same ones over and over again (a gate that is notorious for being pirated will be skipped by any half intelligent pilot who can afford it). Overall I think jump drive modules for lower end ships COULD make moving about in Eve more tactical and more interesting as long as such a method has proper limits (i.e. being fairly costly in terms of isk, ship fittings, fuel capacity and capacity usage). As long as these limits are set harsh enough, stargate travel should still remain the norm making jump drives a more tactical module suited to specific situations and needs. Adding such a mod would be very much a gamble in terms of getting the balance right as well as trigger a constant battle between those who think the mod should be fairly cheap and easy to use (basically fast and safe travel) and those who don't like the module at all (people who want to keep combat primarily around the stargates). Edit: Just tidying up the post. I have the body of a supermodel. I just can't remember where I left it.
TOGAKURE Daisuke	Posted - 2006.10.24 12:17:00 - [52] Hmm actually, now that we're getting up to speed on this idea, I'd suggest that the module would be integrated, still needing fuel, but them mass/size of planets and your POS network should have a role too. Frigs/Cruisers could easily use a planet/moon as a target for jumping, when BS's or bigger would have to use the Sun. Planets for the ships in between. Then your sovereignty and POS network should work for the defender. POSes could have 'detection arrays' for mass jumps and keep the FC's informed of enemy movements. Let's say, you have small POSes in few moons with detectors, you could see the jump-ins on your new seamless map and could then direct your fleets to challenge the invader. Then put some guns which get their power from your POS network to the commong jump-in poins...
Miss Overlord Gallente EUROPEANS	Posted - 2006.10.24 12:19:00 - [53] camp POSes u must, camp planets u must, build titans u must
Kage Getsu Lordless Unbrella Alliance	Posted - 2006.10.24 13:00:00 - [54] Originally by: Cinnamon Red Originally by: Celeste Coeval like cynosaural fields? This is not what the OP was suggesting. A C-field needs a ship at the destination that is effectively creating a temporary and expensive to fuel stargate that a very limited class of ships can use. Don't hold your breath waiting for a frigate to be able to do this without an external help. Actually, do hold your breath while you wait. I'll have your stuff. Maybe I misread what you were trying to say, but a Kestrel works great as a cynosural field user. _________________________________________________________
MrTriggerHappy Caldari Priory Of The Lemon R0ADKILL	Posted - 2006.10.24 19:42:00 - [55] I believe, the main problem with using planetary objects is actually using "in game mechanics" to be able to do this, would be nice if a dev could comment on this, or probably move it into the right section of the forum since the ball is running on idea's now heh
Taram Caldar Caldari Acheron Vanguard Armada The Shadow Ascension	Posted - 2006.10.24 19:52:00 - [56] Originally by: Securion Wolfheart It worked fin in the game Elite, back in the 80:s, on a Commodore 64. I think CCPs staff of 200ppl can make it work on their super computer. infact, it would solve ALOT of problems like gatecamping, only battles at gates, traffic advisory, etc. There would be scanning equip ofcourse to find ships in systems. Will make recon more interesting. single player non-PVP non-empire building non-defense necessary game does NOT compare to an MMO involving PVP, Empire Building, System Defense, etc. You could make this work but you'd need to introduce the ability to detect ships coming out of jump and a way to quickly intercept them at their point of arrival. Otherwise fleets can just ignore soveriegn territory and waltz right into your home systems. No matter how well defended your 'borders' are. You can't compare Elite to EVE in a meaningful way. Elite was a single player game. EVE is not. It's just as simple as that.
Sphit Ker	Posted - 2006.10.24 20:08:00 - [57] I am a fervent supporter of this concept. I humbly believe this is the way of the future as It may solve most nodes problems: Current travel ways (jumpgates) render server nodes management quite a challenge, if not totally impossible, since the server stuffs cannot predict who will jump and when and how many ships will use the gate at once. With jump drives (hyperdrives?), which need some plotting time, the destination system is already know by the server and can then adjust the nodes accordingly and BEFORE the player(s) enter the new solar system. See what I mean? Its awesome
Sever Aldaria Agony Unleashed	Posted - 2006.10.24 20:36:00 - [58] Seems interesting. I don't much fancy the idea of entering another system just by flying x distance away from the sun, but I do like the idea of having to travel a small distance where ambush is possible. Jump Holes With EXPLORATION being added, perhaps they could add something to the effect of "jump holes" (remember Freelancer?) that lead to other systems and that do not show up on overview but rather must be "discovered". One could use these jump holes as a short cut to get to a destination quicker or around a gatecamp. As the vacinity around the "jump-hole" is unstable, there is a pocket of deadspace around the "jump-hole". Pilots are dumped out on a nearby beacon where they must slow-boat it to jump range durring which they could be ambushed. I can't see star gates being eliminated altogether, but perhaps the addition of these hidden, natural deadspace star gates in SOME systems would be fun/useful/interesting and more easily/reasonably implemented? Thoughts about that? [green]Please resize image to a maximum of 400 x 120, not exceeding 24000 bytes, ty. If you would like further d
Too Kind	Posted - 2006.10.24 21:16:00 - [59] Edited by: Too Kind on 24/10/2006 21:19:29 Edited by: Too Kind on 24/10/2006 21:18:18 Originally by: Securion Wolfheart It worked fin in the game Elite, back in the 80:s, on a Commodore 64. I think CCPs staff of 200ppl can make it work on their super computer. infact, it would solve ALOT of problems like gatecamping, only battles at gates, traffic advisory, etc. There would be scanning equip ofcourse to find ships in systems. Will make recon more interesting. Currently pvp is consentual, if somebody doesn't force a fight upon you at a gate. Evading pvp everywhere else is currently a no-brainer. As long as that isn't been solved, you can't allow people to travel freely between different systems from position to positions that we call safespots now. If you can't hinder people moving and force a fight on them, then forget pvp and territory control in eve. You are not meant to be immune to pvp, nowhere, especially not, if you enter claimed hostile territory. edit corrected, shouldn't post too fast -------------------------- Post with your main !!!111

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