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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 17 post(s) |
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CCP Karuck
C C P C C P Alliance
330
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Posted - 2015.03.24 14:56:45 -
[1] - Quote
VR has some specific problems that none of these games have had to deal with. I know some people can get simulation sickness from a normal monitor, but it's rather rare. In VR it's a much harder issue, and you can throw most of traditional game design out the window (not the high level concepts, they can stay).
In general you need to think about how things work in the real world, rather than in previous "normal" games. Resetting views, rotating the player without you rotating your head.. both are huge problems that make you uncomfortable. We manage to get around this mostly by "grounding" a player with a fixed reference which is the cockpit, but spinning and moving sideways and backwards still makes you ill.
I'd say any movement of the view or ship that is not directly initiated by the player himself (by rotating the head or moving the controls) is very bad, and makes you feel ill quite quickly. On top of that are motion-induced issues like vection and acceleration which can make the brain feel motion when there is none or expect motion and feel ill where it isn't there.
VR is tricky, so we have to limit what we do.. just like in the real world :) The air force have had planes for years now that can do maneuvers that can blackout a pilot in a second.
Personally I don't see this as a problem, you just need to approach game design in a different way and not just copy what's been done before. But that also leaves a lot of room for innovation and doing things that haven't been done before.
- Senior Programmer on EVE: Valkyrie / @SiggiGG
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CCP Karuck
C C P C C P Alliance
330
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Posted - 2015.03.24 16:45:40 -
[2] - Quote
1Robert McNamara1 wrote: How about keeping a boosting ship at boost speed until the pilot breaks or starts a turn? maybe other models will do that, but I feel like a space sim should keep top speeds until the player or environment changes that.
In itself not a bad idea, but we're trying to balance the game in a way where you can play it without constantly boosting or braking. If people are always doing one or the other, that can be an indication the normal speed needs to be changed.. and we've gone down that rabbit hole a few times already.
We will be discussing speed control internally in the coming months, and will let you know what we do, but until then.. keep the feedback flowing! :)
- Senior Programmer on EVE: Valkyrie / @SiggiGG
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CCP Karuck
C C P C C P Alliance
332
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Posted - 2015.03.26 16:52:02 -
[3] - Quote
We got the message very clear at Fanfest! A lot of you want more advanced flight mechanics, so I will be looking more into exactly what that could be and how it could possibly tie into the game without countering any of our other objectives.
To do that, I need a bit of help from you guys! Can all write up for me what you consider "advanced flight mechanics"?
1) Is it simply more drift? When you take a turn your momentum carries you in that direction until the forward thrust takes over.
2) Is it the ability to go even further than #1, and do 180-¦ turns and fly backwards? If so, how would you tell the ship to try to counter that velocity with the thrusters (currently the ship applies a constant variable thrust) ?
3) Do you want to remove all caps on both linear and angular velocities?
4) Do you want no drag in space that caps your speed and for example brings you down to normal speed when you stop boosting ?
5) Would you want to force players to use roll more than yaw when making turns, or anything similar?
6) Regarding any of the above, would this be a toggle, part of a fitting, game setting (special servers), or something else?
The more info I get from you all the better, so bring all your ideas!
I'm also considering writing a devblog in the near future on our flight model, both the design choices we've made and a peek into the code running behind the scenes. Would this be something you would be interested in?
- Senior Programmer on EVE: Valkyrie / @SiggiGG
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CCP Karuck
C C P C C P Alliance
333
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Posted - 2015.03.26 20:31:58 -
[4] - Quote
Kynric wrote:Newtonian mechanics would make me happy. By this I mean that pilot input is all about changing the motion rather than selecting a desired speed. It should be like having a gas pedel and brake rather than cruise control.
I agree this is fun for some people, including myself and probably most of you, but it's simply too hard for the majority of players. Imagine teaching people this during a 10 minute test flight at a trade show :) "Wait.. I have to turn the ship around 180-¦ and thrust in the other direction to stop myself?"
We have tried this way of flying the ships, and like others in the thread have pointed out that kind of gameplay often devolves into too fast flybys and other issues. What I'm getting at is the flight mechanics mustn't be counter-productive to our other gameplay goals.
The current flight model in Valkyrie does use physics for all movements, but we add in extra maneuvering thrusters to stabilize the ship. The force of those stabilization thrusters can be controlled, and is something we're still tuning.
On top of these thrusters there is also drag, which is in the reverse of your velocity/momentum/direction of travel. So even when turning off the stabilization thrusters the ship has a habit of countering the drift forces and stabilizing itself.. otherwise you'd just continue to drift sideways after a 90-¦ turn (and have to counter that with a quick burst to the side to stop lateral movement).
Xindi Kraid wrote:Elite Dangerous also has some neat concepts. Regarding 5. I don't really care for being FORCED to fly by turning mainly with roll and pitch, with yaw just being used for fine corrections, but I do think it should be a viable flight method for players.
On top of gameplay reasons (and wanting to make all ships look cool when moving!) comfort in VR is at the top of our list, and rolling seems to be one of the worst things you can do to trigger simulation sickness for many people. We are still playing around with some ideas though, and I'm hoping we'll be able to find a nice balance there.
Xindi Kraid wrote:Aside from that, their flight model is semi-Newtonian, when you make a turn your ship drifts, but not a lot since lateral thrusters automatically compensate.
As I've explained above, Valkyrie is doing exactly the same :)
I might put up a few videos for you to show the difference between our current level of lateral thruster correction and having those thrusters off. Personally I like flying that way, but you often have to "oversteer" to compensate and that makes aiming the forward guns kind of hard.
Xindi Kraid wrote:First, let us set the ship to always counter a bit of lateral movement, but also give us lateral thrusters.
As I've explained above, both of those are in the current flight model.. they are just automatic (no strafing movements).
Xindi Kraid wrote:A common thread you might see is lateral thrusters. I think the prescence of the ability to thrust in directions other than forward is of paramount importance. We need to be able to thrust up down sideways and even backwards, and this should be a core gameplay mechanic.
Up to a point I do agree (Descent was one of my favorite games!), but so far we've found it to complicate the controls a lot. For example - for people without a proper flightstick or HOTAS setup.. where would you made these?
Keep the feedback coming guys, this is a great start! :)
- Senior Programmer on EVE: Valkyrie / @SiggiGG
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CCP Karuck
C C P C C P Alliance
335
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Posted - 2015.03.27 09:09:34 -
[5] - Quote
Phoenix Jones wrote:Chase cam.
Very very simple.. People want that rear view chasing drone so they can watch their ships awesomeness.
Chase cams are no good in VR, they make you feel like a disembodied head being dragged behind a ship. Only one game has been able to make this work (a title called Lucky's Tale) but with big restrictions that won't work for us.
Bienator II wrote:since you are aiming for competitive multiplayer, why not adding several modes? I am playing a WW2 game atm which has arcade mode, realistic mode, simulator mode and full simulator mode.
Our initial market won't be very big at launch, so anything we do that fractures the player base is bad. This is also the reason we won't ship with loads and loads of different maps and game modes (those will come later).
Xindi Kraid wrote: What controller are you guys currently testy Valkyrie with? If it's something like an XBox controller where you have two thumbsticks and at least one analog trigger, then my suggestion would be one thumbstick controls pitch and yaw , throttle can be on a trigger with the shoulder button above it firing reverse thrusters, and the other thumbstick controls lateral and vertical thrusters.
The "minimum entry" for Valkyrie are gamepads like the Xbox/Windows controllers, and player using those need to be able to have the full range of controls.
Currently the triggers are being used for weapons, and the shoulder buttons for rolling. The right stick is free, but that is to leave your thumb free for the buttons. We have played around with "strafing" controls on it, and if we ever have those in the game that's probably where they'll be.
- Senior Programmer on EVE: Valkyrie / @SiggiGG
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CCP Karuck
C C P C C P Alliance
335
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Posted - 2015.03.27 09:49:31 -
[6] - Quote
Xindi Kraid wrote:and the throttle? Where's that, presumably the left stick is being used for pitch and yaw.
Care to share the default controller mapping?
There is no direct throttle control. The ships travel at a set speed which you can briefly modify by boosting or braking (or using things like the MWD).
This was an early discovery for us and a key element in making people feel comfortable in VR.
Current controls are: Left/right triggers = Weapons and abilities. Wraith is missiles/guns, Spectre is MWD/flak. Shoulder buttons = roll Left stick = pitch and yaw A = Boost B = Brake Y = Select target X = Ship ability (Wraith countermeasures, Spectre EMS shield) D-pad only used for drone deployment atm
- Senior Programmer on EVE: Valkyrie / @SiggiGG
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CCP Karuck
C C P C C P Alliance
337
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Posted - 2015.03.27 15:11:48 -
[7] - Quote
I'm curious to know, why exactly do some people want fine thrust control? Does it make a difference that you are travelling at 10%, 15% or 28.95% speed?
As I remember the sims I've played, usually I wanted to travel at top or minimum speed, unless there was a gameplay mechanic forcing me not to. Overheating engines at top speed or something like Elite Dangerous where there is a sweet spot for fastest turning speeds at certain velocities. Managing speeds during dogfights is fun yes, but I think we already cover that with boost+brake.
Personally I think it's a good thing simplifying thrust control, and even if there wasn't a VR comfort issue here I'd probably opt in for something less fine grained.. like let's say 5 different speeds for arguments sake (0, 20, 40, 60, 80, 100%)
- Senior Programmer on EVE: Valkyrie / @SiggiGG
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CCP Karuck
C C P C C P Alliance
337
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Posted - 2015.03.27 15:35:02 -
[8] - Quote
Altirius Saldiaro wrote:I love drifting around asteroids while shooting at the asteroid while doing a tail slide. I like being able flip my ship around mid flight, hit a target, then flip back, fire my afterburner and book it. .
I too am a big fan of drifting like that! There's just something about the feeling when you execute a successful drift and your mind accurately predicted the path... it's like hitting a hole in one in golf or something.
Flipping is trickier because of comfort reasons. I really hope Star Citizen will be a good game (I was a very early backer, got one of the Golden Tickets!), but I have doubts it will be comfortable in VR.
Altirius Saldiaro wrote:Ace Combat vs LOMAC, ill take LOMAC every time. Battlefield flying vs ARMA 3 flying, ill take ARMA 3 every single time.
I quite liked flying in the original BF1942 Battlefield, and BF Vietnam choppers felt good! Can't say I liked flying as much in the later games.
- Senior Programmer on EVE: Valkyrie / @SiggiGG
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CCP Karuck
C C P C C P Alliance
346
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Posted - 2015.03.28 14:14:37 -
[9] - Quote
Just to be clear, we are not against giving player control of the ship. There are just a lot of other game design goals we need to factor in :)
And Admiral Peacock above is right, Valkyrie isn't going for the realistic space sim market.. we want to end up somewhere in between arcade and sim, probably leaning a bit more towards arcade.
- Senior Programmer on EVE: Valkyrie / @SiggiGG
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CCP Karuck
C C P C C P Alliance
358
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Posted - 2015.04.01 19:55:40 -
[10] - Quote
jason hill wrote:I absolutely will NOT play EV on a bloody game pad . I`m not spending all that cash on a bloody VR headset only to find I have to use a crappy game pad
its all or nothing for me .....im following the original EVE mantra ...accept no compramises
If you'd follow the news or multiple forums posts here, then you'd now we also support flight joysticks.
- Senior Programmer on EVE: Valkyrie / @SiggiGG
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CCP Karuck
C C P C C P Alliance
369
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Posted - 2015.04.07 09:48:04 -
[11] - Quote
Hi everyone,
I will be summarizing feedback and presenting internally soon. But before I do that I wanted to share with you an example of what our "flight assist" or drift correction does.
As I've explained somewhere above, the flight assist is a tunable thruster that pushes against the "drift direction" and allows our designers to control how much drift the game has.
Here is a video that shows the current level of drift correction (as presented at Fanfest 2015) vs what it looks like with no drift correction.
As you can see, even without drift correction the ship doesn't drift forever sideways. This is because of a combination of velocity friction and a constant forward thrust.
Hope you enjoy this example. I'm hoping to do more in the future.. possibly in a slightly different format.
https://youtu.be/X2XiNB0XkDg
- Senior Programmer on EVE: Valkyrie / @SiggiGG
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CCP Karuck
C C P C C P Alliance
369
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Posted - 2015.04.07 14:14:31 -
[12] - Quote
It's an ongoing discussion how much assist there should be, and it's even different between ship types.
But you can see that even with this off, the friction alone is enough to prevent you from flying sideways and backwards. To be able to do that you'd have to shut off the engine (which presumably will also turn off the "engine space friction" factor).
If players had the option to turn just this "drift correction" force on and off, do you still think the benefit for advanced users would be too large that we'd have to split people into two different types of servers?
- Senior Programmer on EVE: Valkyrie / @SiggiGG
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CCP Karuck
C C P C C P Alliance
369
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Posted - 2015.04.07 16:32:36 -
[13] - Quote
MidnightWyvern wrote: I guess the only issue would be that the game doesn't have any means to recreate that drift manually.
As an example of what I mean, turning off Flight Assist in Elite: Dangerous means that any action on the controls will act on the ship as it would in reality, and that action will continue until countered by an equally opposite action.
As I've explained before, we are doing things different to Elite. There are two components to "drift correction" in Valkyrie: One being the flight assist force I was demonstrating in the video and the other being velocity drag/friction. Even with the drift correction force turned off, the drag naturally counters any drift.
- Senior Programmer on EVE: Valkyrie / @SiggiGG
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CCP Karuck
C C P C C P Alliance
371
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Posted - 2015.04.09 13:31:32 -
[14] - Quote
To be clear here, I'm not talking about the ability to turn the engine friction off (which does counter some of the drift and prevents you from flying backwards for long).. only the corrective force I showed in the video.
We will not be able to split the user base. We are a semi-niche game genre within a market that doesn't exist yet :) I'm hoping to find some middle ground for everyone.
- Senior Programmer on EVE: Valkyrie / @SiggiGG
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CCP Karuck
C C P C C P Alliance
371
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Posted - 2015.04.09 14:18:52 -
[15] - Quote
Xindi Kraid wrote:My thought was, the engine, at idle produces enough thrust to keep you at a base speed, you can temporarily increase thrust to accelerate without boosting or brake slightly, speeds will decay to the base speed once you've stopped thrusting.
That's exactly how the booster is implemented ;) It temporarily increases the output of the main thruster and once that and the (exponentially increasing) friction reach equilibrium that's your new max speed.
The booster button basically sets a new max speed for you, and the code figures out for you what power the thruster has to be set to reach (and stop at) that speed.
- Senior Programmer on EVE: Valkyrie / @SiggiGG
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CCP Karuck
C C P C C P Alliance
373
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Posted - 2015.04.10 10:45:56 -
[16] - Quote
The Spectre is indeed supposed to be slower and not as nimble as the fighter. It also currently has more drift to give more sense of mass.
Spectre is more about area control, and can then use the MWD to travel between parts of the map.
- Senior Programmer on EVE: Valkyrie / @SiggiGG
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CCP Karuck
C C P C C P Alliance
374
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Posted - 2015.04.10 16:14:51 -
[17] - Quote
Yes, all axis are independent of each other and there are no gimbal lock issues.
- Senior Programmer on EVE: Valkyrie / @SiggiGG
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