Pages: 1 [2] 3 :: one page |
|
Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 17 post(s) |
jason hill
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
756
|
Posted - 2015.03.28 13:09:56 -
[31] - Quote
Altirius Saldiaro wrote:CCP Karuck wrote: Personally I think it's a good thing simplifying thrust control, and even if there wasn't a VR comfort issue here I'd probably opt in for something less fine grained.. like let's say 5 different speeds for arguments sake (0, 20, 40, 60, 80, 100%)
Set increments of thrust control is not good. Then this game turns into a space version of HAWX. I should be allowed to alter my thrust from 0-100+% (+) being afterburner speeds of course. Admiral Peacock wrote:
Problem is if you allow ships to do this freely, whenever they want, you'll basically just have a bunch of players acting like turrets in space.
Turrets in space are stationary targets, which means easier to hit. All it would take is a missile lock, and that guy is toast. I think we should have the ability to maneuver our ships freely without having to hold down some button to do it. I want full, absolute control of my ship. Yaw, Pitch and Roll. Each should be controlled via maneuvering thrusters on the ship. Poinsot's ellipsoid is what we should have simulated in Valkyrie. Kinetic energy and angular momentum should be simulated. If I want to stop my ship, rotate it's normal axis(yaw) to fire on a distant target, that should be my choice. Having a set speed in a space game is definitely something I do not want.
this !.......one thousand times over .......its all about giving the player control .. more control ... |
|
CCP Karuck
C C P C C P Alliance
346
|
Posted - 2015.03.28 14:14:37 -
[32] - Quote
Just to be clear, we are not against giving player control of the ship. There are just a lot of other game design goals we need to factor in :)
And Admiral Peacock above is right, Valkyrie isn't going for the realistic space sim market.. we want to end up somewhere in between arcade and sim, probably leaning a bit more towards arcade.
- Senior Programmer on EVE: Valkyrie / @SiggiGG
|
|
Commissar Kate
GoonWaffe
399918
|
Posted - 2015.03.28 18:58:00 -
[33] - Quote
How viable is Valkyrie gonna be with a full HOTAS setup? I have a full TM Warthog setup complete with pedals.
Or is the game more tailored to a game pad like a xbox controller for the pc?
-k8
My Fanclub
|
1Robert McNamara1
The Graduates Forged of Fire
81
|
Posted - 2015.03.30 17:58:37 -
[34] - Quote
I'm fine with speed caps, not only for direction but also for rotation along any axis. I can see ever increasing velocity or rotation making for poor game play.
As it stands I alternated between boost and break every second of a fight. The positional advantage is just too great to rely on the default speed.
1) Is it simply more drift? When you take a turn your momentum carries you in that direction until the forward thrust takes over. - I think this would work if all other options lead to poor game play or sim-sickness.
2) Is it the ability to go even further than #1, and do 180-¦ turns and fly backwards? If so, how would you tell the ship to try to counter that velocity with the thrusters (currently the ship applies a constant variable thrust) ? - This would be excellent. thrusting sideways, up, down and backwards would allow for some tricky flying while maintaining the speed restrictions.
3) Do you want to remove all caps on both linear and angular velocities? - No, caps make sense from a map design and game design perspective.
4) Do you want no drag in space that caps your speed and for example brings you down to normal speed when you stop boosting ? - I'm of a mixed mind about this after the above discussion. I'd almost have to see both options to make a judgment. Given that you guys have that possibility I'll whatever call you make.
5) Would you want to force players to use roll more than yaw when making turns, or anything similar? - I think there should be incentive to go beyond yaw for turns. You have that incentive built in and with more time in game odds are the nuances of that will come out. You may have to tweak how much benefit it provides each model of ship but it's there and we just need to play it more before making a recommendation.
6) Regarding any of the above, would this be a toggle, part of a fitting, game setting (special servers), or something else? - I think whatever the advanced mode is should be a binary toggle on the server, and only 1 flavor of advanced. Guranteed, if you allow players without advanced controls to fly alongside those with advanced controls you will build in a 'noob bashing' mechanic that players will want to take advantage of. Either everyone is in basic mode or everyone is in advanced mode. This will also separate the casuals from the serious e-Sports players and make for some gripping game footage that will attract more players.
The rear camera ship idea may not work for VR, but the idea of a camera ship for spectator or 'camera-man' view is a good one. You'd be able to show off the clutch moves of excellent pilots and display those to attract a larger audience.
|
jason hill
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
756
|
Posted - 2015.04.01 18:25:49 -
[35] - Quote
I absolutely will NOT play EV on a bloody game pad . I`m not spending all that cash on a bloody VR headset only to find I have to use a crappy game pad
its all or nothing for me .....im following the original EVE mantra ...accept no compramises |
Cade Windstalker
Donohue Enterprises Ad-Astra
320
|
Posted - 2015.04.01 19:38:56 -
[36] - Quote
jason hill wrote:I absolutely will NOT play EV on a bloody game pad . I`m not spending all that cash on a bloody VR headset only to find I have to use a crappy game pad
its all or nothing for me .....im following the original EVE mantra ...accept no compramises
Putting aside the fact that no one has said anything about Valkyrie being game-pad only (just that having one is the minimum required control scheme), since when is Eve "accept no compromises"? Eve is all about cost/benefit, risk/reward, and making trade-offs to achieve what you want, and like any Game no one has ever been entirely happy with everything in the game. |
|
CCP Karuck
C C P C C P Alliance
358
|
Posted - 2015.04.01 19:55:40 -
[37] - Quote
jason hill wrote:I absolutely will NOT play EV on a bloody game pad . I`m not spending all that cash on a bloody VR headset only to find I have to use a crappy game pad
its all or nothing for me .....im following the original EVE mantra ...accept no compramises
If you'd follow the news or multiple forums posts here, then you'd now we also support flight joysticks.
- Senior Programmer on EVE: Valkyrie / @SiggiGG
|
|
jason hill
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
756
|
Posted - 2015.04.01 20:44:48 -
[38] - Quote
CCP Karuck wrote:jason hill wrote:I absolutely will NOT play EV on a bloody game pad . I`m not spending all that cash on a bloody VR headset only to find I have to use a crappy game pad
its all or nothing for me .....im following the original EVE mantra ...accept no compramises If you'd follow the news or multiple forums posts here, then you'd now we also support flight joysticks.
just trying to make a point .......ive already invested a considerable amount of money already into the little endeavour of yours... so don't scrimp on it ...please |
1Robert McNamara1
The Graduates Forged of Fire
81
|
Posted - 2015.04.01 20:51:03 -
[39] - Quote
jason hill wrote:CCP Karuck wrote:jason hill wrote:I absolutely will NOT play EV on a bloody game pad . I`m not spending all that cash on a bloody VR headset only to find I have to use a crappy game pad
its all or nothing for me .....im following the original EVE mantra ...accept no compramises If you'd follow the news or multiple forums posts here, then you'd now we also support flight joysticks. just trying to make a point .......ive already invested a considerable amount of money already into the little endeavour of yours... so don't scrimp on it ...please
We all want joysticks, you're among friends. |
MidnightWyvern
Night Theifs
80
|
Posted - 2015.04.03 04:32:41 -
[40] - Quote
CCP Karuck wrote:Just to be clear, we are not against giving player control of the ship. There are just a lot of other game design goals we need to factor in :)
And Admiral Peacock above is right, Valkyrie isn't going for the realistic space sim market.. we want to end up somewhere in between arcade and sim, probably leaning a bit more towards arcade.
Have you guys considered the Ace Combat model?
Ace Combat has you fly at 50% throttle until you use either R1 to accelerate or L1 to decelerate, and they make uses of the pressure sensitivity to allow you to fine tune your speed if you want, but "boosting" and "braking" is very easy to engage by just applying full pressure.
A similar model could allow for granular throttle control on the PC. Sure you may not need it all the time, but on the rare occasions that something other than 100% or 0% would be appropriate, your players will appreciate having that option.
Besides, using a throttle and pulling it all the way back or shoving it all the way forward and hurtling through space is REALLY fun.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=eaUaJUhTZfw#t=148s
An excellent example of why pod killmails are the best feature to be implemented in EVE Online since warping at zero.
|
|
|
CCP Karuck
C C P C C P Alliance
369
|
Posted - 2015.04.07 09:48:04 -
[41] - Quote
Hi everyone,
I will be summarizing feedback and presenting internally soon. But before I do that I wanted to share with you an example of what our "flight assist" or drift correction does.
As I've explained somewhere above, the flight assist is a tunable thruster that pushes against the "drift direction" and allows our designers to control how much drift the game has.
Here is a video that shows the current level of drift correction (as presented at Fanfest 2015) vs what it looks like with no drift correction.
As you can see, even without drift correction the ship doesn't drift forever sideways. This is because of a combination of velocity friction and a constant forward thrust.
Hope you enjoy this example. I'm hoping to do more in the future.. possibly in a slightly different format.
https://youtu.be/X2XiNB0XkDg
- Senior Programmer on EVE: Valkyrie / @SiggiGG
|
|
1Robert McNamara1
The Graduates Forged of Fire
81
|
Posted - 2015.04.07 13:56:35 -
[42] - Quote
One thing I've taken to heart in these discussions is that the headset experience is very different than on a monitor. The second half, with zero flight assist, looked good. Who knows if I'd hate it with the headset on but right there it looks like an improvement to remove the flight assist. |
|
CCP Karuck
C C P C C P Alliance
369
|
Posted - 2015.04.07 14:14:31 -
[43] - Quote
It's an ongoing discussion how much assist there should be, and it's even different between ship types.
But you can see that even with this off, the friction alone is enough to prevent you from flying sideways and backwards. To be able to do that you'd have to shut off the engine (which presumably will also turn off the "engine space friction" factor).
If players had the option to turn just this "drift correction" force on and off, do you still think the benefit for advanced users would be too large that we'd have to split people into two different types of servers?
- Senior Programmer on EVE: Valkyrie / @SiggiGG
|
|
MidnightWyvern
Night Theifs
83
|
Posted - 2015.04.07 14:30:34 -
[44] - Quote
CCP Karuck wrote:It's an ongoing discussion how much assist there should be, and it's even different between ship types.
But you can see that even with this off, the friction alone is enough to prevent you from flying sideways and backwards. To be able to do that you'd have to shut off the engine (which presumably will also turn off the "engine space friction" factor).
If players had the option to turn just this "drift correction" force on and off, do you still think the benefit for advanced users would be too large that we'd have to split people into two different types of servers?
I guess the only issue would be that the game doesn't have any means to recreate that drift manually.
As an example of what I mean, turning off Flight Assist in Elite: Dangerous means that any action on the controls will act on the ship as it would in reality, and that action will continue until countered by an equally opposite action.
However, even with Flight Assist on, you can still use the manual thruster control to make yourself drift in a similar manner if you wish.
I realize you guys are going for a more arcade-style approach, but in the current Valkyrie builds what is the "non-joystick" thumbstick on the controller used for?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=eaUaJUhTZfw#t=148s
An excellent example of why pod killmails are the best feature to be implemented in EVE Online since warping at zero.
|
|
CCP Karuck
C C P C C P Alliance
369
|
Posted - 2015.04.07 16:32:36 -
[45] - Quote
MidnightWyvern wrote: I guess the only issue would be that the game doesn't have any means to recreate that drift manually.
As an example of what I mean, turning off Flight Assist in Elite: Dangerous means that any action on the controls will act on the ship as it would in reality, and that action will continue until countered by an equally opposite action.
As I've explained before, we are doing things different to Elite. There are two components to "drift correction" in Valkyrie: One being the flight assist force I was demonstrating in the video and the other being velocity drag/friction. Even with the drift correction force turned off, the drag naturally counters any drift.
- Senior Programmer on EVE: Valkyrie / @SiggiGG
|
|
MidnightWyvern
Night Theifs
84
|
Posted - 2015.04.07 16:46:49 -
[46] - Quote
CCP Karuck wrote:MidnightWyvern wrote: I guess the only issue would be that the game doesn't have any means to recreate that drift manually.
As an example of what I mean, turning off Flight Assist in Elite: Dangerous means that any action on the controls will act on the ship as it would in reality, and that action will continue until countered by an equally opposite action.
As I've explained before, we are doing things different to Elite. There are two components to "drift correction" in Valkyrie: One being the flight assist force I was demonstrating in the video and the other being velocity drag/friction. Even with the drift correction force turned off, the drag naturally counters any drift. Well I meant what you were saying from the standpoint of whether the Drift Compensation option would have a significant un-balancing effect on the game, and that having that option might require segregating players based on what option they select.
Is there any way to allow someone with Drift Compensation to manually emulate the effects of having it turned off if necessary?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=eaUaJUhTZfw#t=148s
An excellent example of why pod killmails are the best feature to be implemented in EVE Online since warping at zero.
|
Bienator II
madmen of the skies
3232
|
Posted - 2015.04.07 17:42:29 -
[47] - Quote
just an idea: what if the sideways drift compensation would be weaker than the pull up/down compensation.
how to fix eve: 1) remove ECM 2) rename dampeners to ECM 3) add new anti-drone ewar for caldari 4) give offgrid boosters ongrid combat value
|
1Robert McNamara1
The Graduates Forged of Fire
81
|
Posted - 2015.04.09 13:24:59 -
[48] - Quote
CCP Karuck wrote:
If players had the option to turn just this "drift correction" force on and off, do you still think the benefit for advanced users would be too large that we'd have to split people into two different types of servers?
In my experience, yes. The ability to drift or end engine friction for a few seconds can give a position advantage over a basic pilot and change the balance between ship types. At first, it would be the reverse as people have to learn the flight controls. So if you teat the balance try to test after several hours of pracice.
I understand that I'm asking for a split in the player base, effectively, but I think it's the best way to keep it fun and fair. |
|
CCP Karuck
C C P C C P Alliance
371
|
Posted - 2015.04.09 13:31:32 -
[49] - Quote
To be clear here, I'm not talking about the ability to turn the engine friction off (which does counter some of the drift and prevents you from flying backwards for long).. only the corrective force I showed in the video.
We will not be able to split the user base. We are a semi-niche game genre within a market that doesn't exist yet :) I'm hoping to find some middle ground for everyone.
- Senior Programmer on EVE: Valkyrie / @SiggiGG
|
|
Xindi Kraid
Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries Ltd.
928
|
Posted - 2015.04.09 13:45:37 -
[50] - Quote
That's a lot of space friction. Quite a bit more than I was expecting (possibly even too much). I can't say more without being able to fly it myself, but I'd say even with correction off (or on but turned really low) it still appears to be reasonable to be able to handle flying without being an expert pilot.
I definitely don't think with that difference, the playerbase needs split, but the ability to tune the drift correction might be good. Being able to drift a bit may be useful to more experienced players, but with that much base speed reduction already that limits lateral movements, I don't see the potential to gain a huge advantage.
Regarding the earlier thing on throttle: For crossing the map, you do want to fly at full speed, and would probably already be using your booster, but once in combat, the ability to vary throttle can help you gain a positional advantage, and being able to close at less than max speed lets you better choose when and where to engage which is useful. Again, I don't think we need a proper throttle per-se. My thought was, the engine, at idle produces enough thrust to keep you at a base speed, you can temporarily increase thrust to accelerate without boosting or brake slightly, speeds will decay to the base speed once you've stopped thrusting.
It's the same essentially as it is now where you travel a default speed and can boost or brake to alter it, but it's finer grained control over how much speed you gain or lose. |
|
|
CCP Karuck
C C P C C P Alliance
371
|
Posted - 2015.04.09 14:18:52 -
[51] - Quote
Xindi Kraid wrote:My thought was, the engine, at idle produces enough thrust to keep you at a base speed, you can temporarily increase thrust to accelerate without boosting or brake slightly, speeds will decay to the base speed once you've stopped thrusting.
That's exactly how the booster is implemented ;) It temporarily increases the output of the main thruster and once that and the (exponentially increasing) friction reach equilibrium that's your new max speed.
The booster button basically sets a new max speed for you, and the code figures out for you what power the thruster has to be set to reach (and stop at) that speed.
- Senior Programmer on EVE: Valkyrie / @SiggiGG
|
|
Xindi Kraid
Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries Ltd.
928
|
Posted - 2015.04.09 14:20:38 -
[52] - Quote
I'd rather it be less binary (go fast or go not fast) |
Gemini Tordanis
Elysian. Orderly Misconduct
0
|
Posted - 2015.04.09 18:37:05 -
[53] - Quote
Firstly, you guys are doing great work with this production for such a niche market. There are tons of flight-sims out there, and it's quite the challenge finding the balance between game-design goals and the various flight preferences of the user base.
I have a passion for flight sims, and I also prefer full control of my craft with no 'easy-mode' assistance. But that certainly isn't the case for your entire target demographic.
My 2 cents:
-Will VR be required for this? I am extremely interested in Valkyrie and would love to own a VR headset, but I am not sure I would be able to afford one personally. It would be nice if users could opt in or out of VR. Not sure if that is even on the table. What about technology like TrackIR (no clunky face mask but still uses your head as a POV tracker)
Considering you aren't going for space sim (Read: Star Citizen), and you prefer to lean towards arcade, I don't see why VR could be mandated, (although it is pretty cool). Perhaps the POV hat on joysticks could be used for non-VR users. You could also consider implementing a feature that allows the pilot to focus on their target.
-Even though I prefer no drift correction, I do see why it would be useful for game design and VR stabilization. I would agree that given the option of drift correction on or off to players would give unfair advantage to pilots who elect off. This would allow the ship to effectively have a greater firing arc, thus providing more opportunities for damage output.
- Again, while I prefer full control of the throttle, I understand you have a constant throttle with boost/brake capabilities in this design. Given that directive, I liked the user suggestion of having the throttle similar to Ace Combat play style (50% with boost/brake capability). Can/Will there be an option to cut engines and stop the fighter? It could be useful for squadrons to be able to hold position. You could integrate the drift correction thrusters to keep the fighter from over-drifting beyond your arcade-style intentions. The moment the engine fires back up, the fighter can go back to minimum speed.
Thanks for your hard work. |
1Robert McNamara1
The Graduates Forged of Fire
81
|
Posted - 2015.04.09 20:57:31 -
[54] - Quote
CCP Karuck wrote:We will not be able to split the user base. We are a semi-niche game genre within a market that doesn't exist yet :) I'm hoping to find some middle ground for everyone.
I read you. loud and clear. I like working within a box :)
So the drift setting could be another slider like the stick sensitivity bar. By default both are at 5, hypothetically and can be dialed up or down to player preference. I can get over my belief that pilot modes harm balance by remembering that 'look sensitivity' has long been a player controlled variable in FPS's. Clearly the highest setting is best for those with sharp reflexes and they likely dominate the competitive scene. So too could the drift setting.
Making it a slider means you can keep the populations blended and there'd be less of a binary difference between pilots as some are going to settle on middle ground settings (7 or 8).
For throttle, yeah I used the boost just the same as if I wanted to go faster for just a second. that works on the agile craft or those with boosts but wont work for the specter. Maybe that's an intention that the specter and other non-boosting ships only get 2 speeds instead of 3 (or more with fast fingers). |
|
CCP Karuck
C C P C C P Alliance
373
|
Posted - 2015.04.10 10:45:56 -
[55] - Quote
The Spectre is indeed supposed to be slower and not as nimble as the fighter. It also currently has more drift to give more sense of mass.
Spectre is more about area control, and can then use the MWD to travel between parts of the map.
- Senior Programmer on EVE: Valkyrie / @SiggiGG
|
|
Gemini Tordanis
No.Mercy Triumvirate.
0
|
Posted - 2015.04.10 15:07:06 -
[56] - Quote
Will the controls allow for full roll + pitch up for turning? (i.e. roll is independent to yaw)
When pitching up, can you continue to pitch up and fly beyond the vertical 90? (i.e. Immelmann Turn) |
1Robert McNamara1
The Graduates Forged of Fire
81
|
Posted - 2015.04.10 15:16:32 -
[57] - Quote
Gemini Tordanis wrote:Will the controls allow for full roll + pitch up for turning? (i.e. roll is independent to yaw)
They do that today, you can do a full 360 by going 'up' or 'down'. (air quotes for space travel) |
Gemini Tordanis
No.Mercy Triumvirate.
0
|
Posted - 2015.04.10 15:37:41 -
[58] - Quote
1Robert McNamara1 wrote:Gemini Tordanis wrote:Will the controls allow for full roll + pitch up for turning? (i.e. roll is independent to yaw) They do that today, you can do a full 360 by going 'up' or 'down'. (air quotes for space travel)
Thanks! I'm trying to keep up with all the information, perhaps I need more coffee. |
|
CCP Karuck
C C P C C P Alliance
374
|
Posted - 2015.04.10 16:14:51 -
[59] - Quote
Yes, all axis are independent of each other and there are no gimbal lock issues.
- Senior Programmer on EVE: Valkyrie / @SiggiGG
|
|
Bienator II
madmen of the skies
3237
|
Posted - 2015.04.10 17:28:01 -
[60] - Quote
CCP Karuck wrote:Yes, all axis are independent of each other and there are no gimbal lock issues. can you remove the gimbal lock form the eve ships and cameras too? :P
how to fix eve: 1) remove ECM 2) rename dampeners to ECM 3) add new anti-drone ewar for caldari 4) give offgrid boosters ongrid combat value
|
|
|
|
|
Pages: 1 [2] 3 :: one page |
First page | Previous page | Next page | Last page |