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Enom Gwan
The Raging Chickens
0
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Posted - 2015.03.24 17:29:22 -
[1] - Quote
With the impending release of Dust 514 and with it an amazing display of the latest graphic technology available to the staff at CCP.
Any likelihood of an upgrade to DX12?
Would have a triple whammy of increased performance, improved graphics and also advertising for being one of the first MMO's with a DX12 engine. |
ShahFluffers
Ice Fire Warriors Snuffed Out
7738
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Posted - 2015.03.24 17:44:06 -
[2] - Quote
You are aware that more than half the people who play this game still run on DX9... right?
How did you start?
The SP System
IFW
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Phoenix Jones
Isogen 5
1198
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Posted - 2015.03.24 17:48:49 -
[3] - Quote
ShahFluffers wrote:You are aware that more than half the people who play this game still run on DX9... right?
Doesn't mean they can't push towards dx12. Heck they might have too.
Yes I know this will screw up Linux people a bit (including my own installation).
Yaay!!!!
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joecuster
AQUILA INC Verge of Collapse
27
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Posted - 2015.03.24 18:06:17 -
[4] - Quote
0/10 |
Phoenix Jones
Isogen 5
1198
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Posted - 2015.03.24 18:14:30 -
[5] - Quote
I actually don't see why this is a 0 out of 10. It's a valid question.
Yaay!!!!
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Gosti Kahanid
GANOR Deep Space Explorers GANOR INC.
93
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Posted - 2015.03.24 18:41:33 -
[6] - Quote
At fanfest they answered to this question. As it stands now, there is no reason to upgrade to DX12. DX12 gives a lot of opportunities when you use a lot of different assets, but this is not the case in EvE. It would help to make look astroid-belts better, but thats it, and for that it is to much effort. You can-Št just upgrade your grafik engine with a few clicks. And as ShahFluffers said, a lot of people are still using DX9.
BTW, "impending release of Dust 514" did I miss something? |
ShahFluffers
Ice Fire Warriors Snuffed Out
7740
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Posted - 2015.03.24 19:11:24 -
[7] - Quote
I should also add 2 things...
- yes, eventually EVE (and all the people who play it will have to upgrade). But it a slow process because it costs time and money.
- believe it or not, some people care more about performance than "pretty." Upgrading to the latest "bleeding edge" tech pr software is often frought with problems and instability issues... which does not appeal to someone who just wants things to be stable
How did you start?
The SP System
IFW
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Nariya Kentaya
Ministry of War Amarr Empire
1866
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Posted - 2015.03.24 19:23:14 -
[8] - Quote
ShahFluffers wrote:I should also add 2 things...
- yes, eventually EVE (and all the people who play it will have to upgrade). But it a slow process because it costs time and money.
- believe it or not, some people care more about performance than "pretty." Upgrading to the latest "bleeding edge" tech pr software is often frought with problems and instability issues... which does not appeal to someone who just wants things to be stable eh, pretty is still important, especially in a game that requires alot of travel, if things arent pretty enough that I go "oooh, wonder what it looks like over there", then im liable to alt tab while traveling, and that im told never ends well.
honestly, scenery was the only redeeming feature of Elite Dangerous, made you want to fly around, because some of the things you could see were downright wild. not saying EVE needs that kind of diversity, but hurry up with the HD texture packs CCP |
Zan Shiro
Alternative Enterprises
593
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Posted - 2015.03.24 22:41:43 -
[9] - Quote
Gosti Kahanid wrote: BTW, "impending release of Dust 514" did I miss something?
probably saw a trailer somewhere. Or staged gameplay footage. You know the e-3 kind of stuff advertised to show work being done. Often presented by marketing people not actual techs and engineers. You know...the people who would actually know better when release is more feasible.
The darkside to this stuff being is most times the game is far from done and time actually burned as a diversion for this presentation material rather than actual game.
Insert rant about the false advertising of this stuff as its either CG cutscene work and not based on gameplay. Or if (rarely the case) gameplay its cart on rails gameplay stuff. Go off the rails and head left instead of right as planned there be monsters out there and the code bugs do bite really hard lol.
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Zan Shiro
Alternative Enterprises
593
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Posted - 2015.03.24 23:50:20 -
[10] - Quote
Phoenix Jones wrote:ShahFluffers wrote:You are aware that more than half the people who play this game still run on DX9... right? Doesn't mean they can't push towards dx12. Heck they might have too. Yes I know this will screw up Linux people a bit (including my own installation).
Years down the road maybe. Assuming like most many plans are based strategically. This usually years out.
ANy PC use of 12 will be way off, besides CCP even. Xbox one will be your first use of it...and that will be months out as if a game is like 75% done they won't be recoding it. A framework can offer lots of enhancements.....after you learn to use them then optimize what your learned to use
xbox one game on the verge of controlled beta testing and release....has a lower dx base and is optimized. You don't want to be changing this recipe with a markedly different framework. Frameworks and even languages upgrade from say 6.9 to 7.0 are not plug and play. Major version number changes are reserved for massive changes. Changes that can deprecate your old tricks...and need a fair amount of time to find new ones.
Much to the chagrin of the 3.x zealots for example I can tell a new and green coder learn in python 2.x (around .6. or .7) and not be steering them in the wrong direction. This will get them paid for python gigs. Several years later many have not implemented code conversion to python 3.x. to include most (if not all, have not installed every flavor to test this so can't be sure) unix/linus/bsd OS makers. I run mac os, cent os and ubuntu....still kicking the 2.x. Ever seen how even basic 2.x python can diaf in version 3, you'd see why lol. |
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Zepheros Naeonis
TinklePee
26
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Posted - 2015.03.25 02:09:44 -
[11] - Quote
DX12 is Windows 10 only. Will still have to wait for newer hardware(GPU's) to even support it. It'll be just as dead in the water as DX11 was for the first couple years. DX11 with EVE is the most pointless thing ever anyways.
Funny thing actually, every time there has been an update to the launcher that reset the options, I would find out while playing because the game would crash on me for no real reason. Check launcher options, oh look, DX11 is selected. Back to DX9, no more crashing. I've never crashed playing EVE on DX9. So take that how you will. |
Enom Gwan
The Raging Chickens
0
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Posted - 2015.03.25 12:24:41 -
[12] - Quote
Great discussion guys, with some decent and very valid arguments/points.
Yes in terms of technology, it will be bleeding edge and will only affect the top 10% or so. But you're missing the point in that going DX12 opens the portal for Xbox One and a much greater/larger market.
One thing I wanted to expand on, the massive space battles (PVP) would the decreased CPU requirements help alleviate server side processing? Or would there still be a requirement to migrate more servers for these battles?
And just a note, I originally bought EVE Online after seeing it at the London game expo many years ago and thinking wow that game looks absolutely amazing. I immediately went home, bought a new computer (read built a new computer) and downloaded the installer. Been hooked as a casual gamer ever since. |
Nariya Kentaya
Ministry of War Amarr Empire
1866
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Posted - 2015.03.25 13:04:03 -
[13] - Quote
Enom Gwan wrote:Great discussion guys, with some decent and very valid arguments/points.
Yes in terms of technology, it will be bleeding edge and will only affect the top 10% or so. But you're missing the point in that going DX12 opens the portal for Xbox One and a much greater/larger market.
One thing I wanted to expand on, the massive space battles (PVP) would the decreased CPU requirements help alleviate server side processing? Or would there still be a requirement to migrate more servers for these battles?
And just a note, I originally bought EVE Online after seeing it at the London game expo many years ago and thinking wow that game looks absolutely amazing. I immediately went home, bought a new computer (read built a new computer) and downloaded the installer. Been hooked as a casual gamer ever since. how in the seven frozen hells does DX12 open up XBone? in case you havent ehard 1) microsoft doesnt allow cross-platform, they would have their own EVE, which is not what EVE is about 2) its a console... trying to play EVE
and how would swapping to DX12 decrease CPU requirements of large space battles? your still operating the same basic engien with the same limitations, and the same amount of data, doesnt matter if your using DX9,10,11, or 12, stackless python is stackless python, and 3000 people is still 3000 people |
Barakach
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
211
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Posted - 2015.03.26 00:40:42 -
[14] - Quote
Gosti Kahanid wrote:At fanfest they answered to this question. As it stands now, there is no reason to upgrade to DX12. DX12 gives a lot of opportunities when you use a lot of different assets, but this is not the case in EvE. It would help to make look astroid-belts better, but thats it, and for that it is to much effort. You can-Št just upgrade your grafik engine with a few clicks. And as ShahFluffers said, a lot of people are still using DX9.
BTW, "impending release of Dust 514" did I miss something?
Bah, cop out. I've been in those big nullsec blobs. 5 FPS, CPU and GPU are both idle. While DX11 has much more support for threading than prior versions, it's still not as good as DX12.
Not a high priority, but they should be looking into updating their engine to handle threads better. It's a many year project, best start early. |
Nardi wally
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
0
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Posted - 2015.05.25 07:39:32 -
[15] - Quote
I think Eve online need a small refresh of its environment ... not really to create cross platform (Xbox) but just for update graphics.
DX11 is a piece of s*** ... no optimizations, etc...
but DX12 boost performance more than 300%. So why not enable DX12 in Eve ? |
Zan Shiro
Alternative Enterprises
647
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Posted - 2015.05.25 11:44:03 -
[16] - Quote
Nardi wally wrote:I think Eve online need a small refresh of its environment ... not really to create cross platform (Xbox) but just for update graphics.
DX11 is a piece of s*** ... no optimizations, etc...
but DX12 boost performance more than 300%. So why not enable DX12 in Eve ?
psst...when software makers put out new tools they will always say 300% or some number boost. They then run very targeted code to prove it.
When you see this stuff ask the vendor for source code and what it was run on. And test yourself.
That takes extensive recoding to get chief. Damn near rebuilds.
Here is what happens when new tools come out.
First...you have to find out what they killed/deprecated. Then you have to find out what replaced it. Then you have to find what that replacement does to play in with the rest of your code if left in place.
This is not type search string, grep with replace and voila you have chance all vars named ima_Var to var_Ima. This is why many have stayed at python 2.x for a while now as a related tangent. Python 3.x does amazing things. Sadly among those amazing things is it breaks even basic 2.x code in seconds flat.
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Arya Regnar
Darwins Right Hand
728
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Posted - 2015.05.25 12:11:01 -
[17] - Quote
I set eve to run on dx9, I can run it on dx11 but it's much slower and LOD on low shaders is terrible. Definitely don't need dx12
EvE-Mail me if you need anything.
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Nardi wally
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
0
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Posted - 2015.05.25 14:02:08 -
[18] - Quote
Zan Shiro wrote:[quote=Nardi wally] psst...when software makers put out new tools they will always say 300% or some number boost. They then run very targeted code to prove it.
This 300% is based on 3DMark and it was tested by a lot of serious High-tech magazines like Tom's Hardware, etc ...
DX12 is based on mantle ... mantle works better than DX11. So why not DX 12 ?
PS: I know synthetic tests (like 3DMark) doesn t give the same results than games tests but they are not quite different. |
Hallvardr
67
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Posted - 2015.05.25 21:44:57 -
[19] - Quote
... and as far as hardware not supporting it ... a $50.00 evga card (picked at random) has DX12 support. No excuse there. |
Shin Katsumoto
Vulcan Industries Alternate Allegiance
6
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Posted - 2015.05.25 22:25:35 -
[20] - Quote
Thumbs up OP! And maybe they can update the UI as well then. One can hope. |
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Zan Shiro
Alternative Enterprises
647
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Posted - 2015.05.26 05:06:32 -
[21] - Quote
Nardi wally wrote:Zan Shiro wrote: psst...when software makers put out new tools they will always say 300% or some number boost. They then run very targeted code to prove it.
This 300% is based on 3DMark and it was tested by a lot of serious High-tech magazines like Tom's Hardware, etc ... DX12 is based on mantle (AMD API) ... mantle works better than DX11. So why not DX 12 ? PS: I know synthetic tests (like 3DMark) doesn t give the same results than games tests but they are not quite different.
3d mark tests for extremes a game usually does not reach often. And often times the scores are misleading as they are not real systems. They won't have your download app running in the backbground, mail app open as well. Also remember 3d mark has been used by both nvidia and amd for market spin. Juiced code has been known to be used in the past.
And why not open GL if looking to change the world? It get them off proprietary software for starters. It could be the same amount of work either way, open gl could get them in a better spot to be honest all said and done. Hell valve/steam even offers iirc access to the tools they use for conversions.
DX 12 is not even industry standard and won't be for quite sometime. It actually behoove CCP, and any game maker, to let this sit a good while and let new games who started this core development day 1 find the pitfalls. As mentioned new tools can make for new problems.
And as mentioned before in this thread or others...there is the laptop market. We can't swap out video cards at the drop of a hat. Could say well screw the laptop user base. We are legion though....we are hard to ignore. This for example would be why we have seen a sharp rise in the indy game markets. Their stuff usually runs quite nice on laptops out the box. And well...they try and create innovative content. Something I'd like CCP continue to do...make the content and not retool for dx12 for god knows how long.
Several things still broken or need ing attention for years gone by now.....lets fix them first as well they have seniority and the game being prettier to players like me is not going to satisfy us. Shiny lemon car fresh from the body shop is still a broke ass car. New paint job does not change that. Eve especially, many outstanding issues are not related to graphics in any way. It be spaghetti code from devs long ago no longer working there. This is the code I'd want fixed up, not dx code revisions.
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Nardi wally
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
0
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Posted - 2015.05.26 07:13:29 -
[22] - Quote
Why not openGL ? because 90% of laptops are sold with Windows and using DX ... :p But yeah I hope one day all the game will be coded for DX and openGL. And in this case why not Vulkan ? It s also an API (future of openGL) based on mantle and works like DX12 (low-level API)
I dont understand your post because you can add DX12 without removing DX9 and DX11. What s the problem ?
Bugs must be fix first, I m aware of that but you can t only do that. Why ? Players can t wait for that kind of patch because it s too long for them. And don t really see changes.
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omgdutch2005
FinFleet Northern Coalition.
9
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Posted - 2015.06.26 02:15:49 -
[23] - Quote
so...
what about it?
DX12 will maybe Windows 10 only... does it matter? no..
why? well everyone with Windows 7 and Windows 8.1 is getting a free upgrade to Windows 10 if their Windows version is legit!!!
Plus its a big PR thingy...
https://community.amd.com/community/gaming/blog/2015/05/12/more-mantle-games-are-on-the-way
Jump on the train while its about to leave... heck.... lots of big game companies supporting mantle... (and that is only AMD R9 (and newer) series)
So join in....
+1 for DX12 support please...
@CCP http://developer.amd.com/mantle/ just sign up and have a go at it!!! |
Lugh Crow-Slave
1148
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Posted - 2015.06.26 05:33:03 -
[24] - Quote
Phoenix Jones wrote:I actually don't see why this is a 0 out of 10. It's a valid question.
because there is no need to do it right now the dev time would be better spent else where
Fuel block colors? Missiles for Caldari T3? Corp Stasis
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Barrogh Habalu
Forever Winter Absolute Zero.
885
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Posted - 2015.06.26 06:18:33 -
[25] - Quote
Nariya Kentaya wrote:honestly, scenery was the only redeeming feature of Elite Dangerous, made you want to fly around, because some of the things you could see were downright wild. not saying EVE needs that kind of diversity, but hurry up with the HD texture packs CCP Tbh it requires more "landscape" design than technology, at least when it comes to EVE. Sometimes I feel it needs more stuff near gates. I don't think it's necessary to switch to dx12 in order to make it look better. Updating old scenery pieces would make much more differences.
And yeah, it's been like 2 years since CCP said that they have some assets they can use to make hi res texture pack. Sad to think that it's probably got shelved.
Nariya Kentaya wrote:1) microsoft doesnt allow cross-platform... Can you elaborate on that one? AFAIK KI is going to be cross-platform (between xbone and PC), as in: cross play and cross buy. In fact, it's not even real cross-platform, just different rigs that both run Win10.
More on topic: what exactly do you people want to change visually and why do you need DX12 for that, that's the question. |
Amarisen Gream
Divine Demise
83
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Posted - 2015.06.26 07:08:43 -
[26] - Quote
Personally I wanna see a move toward more open source options.
Mac user here and I won't buy a windows machine or install that virus on my overpriced desktop made of laptop parts, that has a great visual looks on the exterior and a much better OS (still needs some help on the gaming end, but getting better). ;)
xoxo
Amarisen Gream
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Zan Shiro
Alternative Enterprises
680
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Posted - 2015.06.26 08:44:46 -
[27] - Quote
omgdutch2005 wrote:so...
what about it?
DX12 will maybe Windows 10 only... does it matter? no..
why? well everyone with Windows 7 and Windows 8.1 is getting a free upgrade to Windows 10 if their Windows version is legit!!!
!
When a company takes this kind of stance it better have a few things in place.
1. A product that has no replacement option or one that will be missed enough by clients to have them say okay we will upgrade 2. It should have a (projected) market that makes this a wise business move to cover those who do leave.
lets talk about 1. I only see this stuff in high end(read high priced) server based software. Much as I would love to go linux servers for some of my network windows servers functions that is not happening. So various vendors can say make it this this and this spec or pound sand and we say sir yes sir. Eve tries this trick...I am not stuck with it in anyway. It is not essential like say my enterprise wide AV/AS management solution.
lets talk about 2: You are assuming because the upgrade will be free all will take it. Very bad assumption. even apple with its switch to free OS upgrades cannot get 100% upgrade success. Its a smaller market, should be easier to reach 100, or even 90 which it hasn't (last numbers I saw it never even broke 90%).
Linux as well. I stll run earlier Ubuntu LTS versions now halfway into their 5 year cycle at home. No new features added of importance to me (good stuff added...I just have no use for it). Many years in IT has taught if it ain't broke, don't fix it.
M$ and CCP know full well not all legit owners will upgrade. Many for valid reasons. "legacy apps" issue usually a top 1. You'd like to maybe upgrade. But you have the apps that aren't compatible. can be some time for that to happen. Break 5 go to apps to run eve...not the smart move for many. Not all also want to run compatibility tool to bypass either.
These are the clients ccp needs to factor in. Not all rush on every OS. Want the largest base possible to make sales from you need to accommodate them as well. |
Osaka Takawaki
Order and Prosperity
1
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Posted - 2015.07.30 15:13:56 -
[28] - Quote
Now that I'm on Windows 10 and seeing how well DX12 performs compared to DX11, I think there's no reason not to implement it. It's not that hard and it ends up giving players better graphics and better performance. |
Haatakan Reppola
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
70
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Posted - 2015.07.30 15:43:07 -
[29] - Quote
Osaka Takawaki wrote:Now that I'm on Windows 10 and seeing how well DX12 performs compared to DX11, I think there's no reason not to implement it. It's not that hard and it ends up giving players better graphics and better performance.
Not that hard, then please give us a link to the game you upgraded from DX9 or 11 to 12 Performance boost would only be for people with DX12 ready machines/OS, while a large part of EVE players barely have DX11 ready machines |
Osaka Takawaki
Order and Prosperity
1
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Posted - 2015.07.31 03:58:23 -
[30] - Quote
Haatakan Reppola wrote:Osaka Takawaki wrote:Now that I'm on Windows 10 and seeing how well DX12 performs compared to DX11, I think there's no reason not to implement it. It's not that hard and it ends up giving players better graphics and better performance. Not that hard, then please give us a link to the game you upgraded from DX9 or 11 to 12 Performance boost would only be for people with DX12 ready machines/OS, while a large part of EVE players barely have DX11 ready machines
Do you have any source for that statistic? |
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