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Indigo Seqi
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Posted - 2003.11.03 18:25:00 -
[31]
I don't know if this attitude has worked well for you to achieve results in the past Hellmar but I can assure you it's not helping your cause here.
More people will start leaving shortly.
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Jessica Logan
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Posted - 2003.11.03 18:38:00 -
[32]
 Quote:
... I think to some extent you have the cause and the effect backwards here -- people are getting angry and demanding because they are feeling ignored and left in the dark with lil' to no explanation.
You could also say that certain peoples' attitude on these boards, irregardless of what CCP do, has lead to the lack of communication.
Goes in circles.
Interesting to note that quite a few egotists in these thread are condemning Hellmar for coming across as a little stuffy. oO
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Tentimes
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Posted - 2003.11.03 18:50:00 -
[33]
The vacuum that they created has led to a hell of a lot of good people leaving.
All it would take is 5 minutes a day from someone to keep us informed, or even Pann doing her job and acting as community rep.
Right now they are killing their own game by this stinking attitude they have.
I agree people lose the rag and we get more and more agressive and sometimes OTT, but that's because we are being largely ignored. It's infuriating. Have you ever stood in a shop looking for assistance while the assistants are just sitting chatting to each other and ignoring you?
They will regret this attitude.
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j0sephine
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Posted - 2003.11.03 18:54:00 -
[34]
"You could also say that certain peoples' attitude on these boards, irregardless of what CCP do, has lead to the lack of communication.
Goes in circles.
"
Indeed; thing is, it's in the developers' interest to ignore the inevitable whining and try to maintain communication at least with sensible part of the userbase... rather than withdraw, since withdrawal only increases amount of complaints.
The players have no control over what other players post, so you cannot really expect situation where no one ever whines about the developers, game and everything... the devs do have control over their own posting though, and it's almost entirely up to them if they try to communicate or not. o.O
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Jash Illian
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Posted - 2003.11.03 19:01:00 -
[35]
Quote:
Quote:
... I think to some extent you have the cause and the effect backwards here -- people are getting angry and demanding because they are feeling ignored and left in the dark with lil' to no explanation.
You could also say that certain peoples' attitude on these boards, irregardless of what CCP do, has lead to the lack of communication.
Goes in circles.
Interesting to note that quite a few egotists in these thread are condemning Hellmar for coming across as a little stuffy. oO
No you can't. They have a job to do. That job involves communicating with the playerbase. "But they're mean to me!" is a childish excuse suitable for a 16 year old.
I mean its like you want corporations to oblige each other like its sex or something. Pffft I would rather **** my enemy.- Rohann
Be careful out there. That other guy waiting in the queue for the gate MIGHT be a baby-munching frock-burner, YOU JUST DON'T KNOW!- Lallante |
Molly
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Posted - 2003.11.03 19:05:00 -
[36]
Basic concept of communication:
Don't give promises you can't fulfill.
****es off even your gf/bf at some point  .
--
Kasha > Mastema, face the reality: All the juicy dots are gone.
-- |
Zagum Darkfin
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Posted - 2003.11.03 19:06:00 -
[37]
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Edited by: Hellmar on 03/11/2003 16:53:48
I don't know if this attitude has worked well for you to achieve results in the past Jash Illian but I can assure you it's not helping your cause here.
The answers will arrive shortly.
I totally agree with Hellmar here. There's a way of asking questions to the people responsible for giving you game that you play, and the means with which to deploy it.
Kudos.
1) Nobody is giving me anything. I'm paying to play this game.
2) I asked last Wednesday. This is now Monday. For all intents and purposes given the amount of communication on the subject, despire others asking between Wednesday and today, the issue had been ignored.
Go Josh!! Just remember we are PAYING BETA TESTERS, not players who deserve everything promised in the F****** box. I agree with the attitude, it is appropriate considering the homeland interview and the LACK OF CONTENT 5 MONTHS AFTER RELEASE.
Some Issues in conclusion:
1. Pann should be fired or replaced.
2. DO you know the Legal term "False Advertising"??
3. Most people are forgiving to a certain point to where the ridiculous becomes obvious and will turn hostile on you. You are at this point.
4. Dont make promises you never intend to keep.
5. The customer is always right even if they are F***tards and totally clueless. You want their money, you kiss their ass. Simple as that.
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Locuila
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Posted - 2003.11.03 19:07:00 -
[38]
See, the thing is this:
yes, I agree there should be more communication between the people representing CCP and the customerbase, in whatever method.
However, that being said, whenever we do get communcation from them, we tend to jump all over their backs for not implementing what they promised they would in the time that they said.
When they actually DO release something that's on-time, it tends to be buggy, and then we jump all over their backs for not releasing a quality product. In a perfect world things would be released on-time and bug-free. We all know the world isn't perfect and in the end, the human factor is more often than not the most overwhelming one. So it's a double-edged sword for both parties.
I would suggest that the people that represent CCP and it's dealings, refrain from giving any sort of timeframe in the future (even in an off-the-cuff remark) for any plans they have concerning EVE, because things do happen, and deadlines get pushed back. (I see this everyday at work)
Anyway, a little patience on our part wouldn't hurt. Coming off as abrasive never really got anybody anywhere.
___________________________________
I love being podded. - Hampstah |
McWatt
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Posted - 2003.11.03 19:13:00 -
[39]
Quote:
Edited by: Hellmar on 03/11/2003 16:53:48
I don't know if this attitude has worked well for you to achieve results in the past Jash Illian but I can assure you it's not helping your cause here.
The answers will arrive shortly.
*****ing about jash s attitude, you might not want to find out about mine
and it worked in the past
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Skaz
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Posted - 2003.11.03 19:17:00 -
[40]
Quote:
I would suggest that the people that represent CCP and it's dealings, refrain from giving any sort of timeframe in the future (even in an off-the-cuff remark) for any plans they have concerning EVE, because things do happen, and deadlines get pushed back. (I see this everyday at work)
just an observation......isn't this what they've been doing the last couple of weeks?
look at where that got them.....up against the wall facing a firing squad 
"No, I'm not alt.....even if I have been in Pator Tech School for 2 years..." |
Locuila
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Posted - 2003.11.03 19:25:00 -
[41]
Quote:
Quote:
I would suggest that the people that represent CCP and it's dealings, refrain from giving any sort of timeframe in the future (even in an off-the-cuff remark) for any plans they have concerning EVE, because things do happen, and deadlines get pushed back. (I see this everyday at work)
just an observation......isn't this what they've been doing the last couple of weeks?
look at where that got them.....up against the wall facing a firing squad
I haven't heard any timeframe given out these past couple of weeks (other than that friday CSM thing...which is a good example to refrain from in the future). The common timeframe given in the gaming industry is "Soon" or "When it's done...", you see it in magazines all the time, i don't know why it's any different in an actual game.
___________________________________
I love being podded. - Hampstah |
Jessica Logan
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Posted - 2003.11.03 19:26:00 -
[42]
Quote:
No you can't. They have a job to do. That job involves communicating with the playerbase. "But they're mean to me!" is a childish excuse suitable for a 16 year old.
"I pay for this!" is also a crappy excuse.
Would _you_ communicate with an egotistical, rant-filled playerbase like this one for 0.33p a day?
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Jash Illian
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Posted - 2003.11.03 19:37:00 -
[43]
Quote:
Quote:
No you can't. They have a job to do. That job involves communicating with the playerbase. "But they're mean to me!" is a childish excuse suitable for a 16 year old.
"I pay for this!" is also a crappy excuse.
Would _you_ communicate with an egotistical, rant-filled playerbase like this one for 0.33p a day?
If it was my job, yes.
I mean its like you want corporations to oblige each other like its sex or something. Pffft I would rather **** my enemy.- Rohann
Be careful out there. That other guy waiting in the queue for the gate MIGHT be a baby-munching frock-burner, YOU JUST DON'T KNOW!- Lallante |
Locuila
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Posted - 2003.11.03 19:40:00 -
[44]
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
No you can't. They have a job to do. That job involves communicating with the playerbase. "But they're mean to me!" is a childish excuse suitable for a 16 year old.
"I pay for this!" is also a crappy excuse.
Would _you_ communicate with an egotistical, rant-filled playerbase like this one for 0.33p a day?
If it was my job, yes.
Of course you're going to say that, because it's the easiest thing to say.
The real answer to that question, (if you were actually in his shoes) would be most definately no.
___________________________________
I love being podded. - Hampstah |
Jessica Logan
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Posted - 2003.11.03 19:43:00 -
[45]
Quote:
If it was my job, yes.
Given your, often violent, reactions to people who have a slightly different opinion to you.....that comment would have to be taken with an entire Iteron full of salt.
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Cranky Steve
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Posted - 2003.11.03 19:51:00 -
[46]
I work in customer support (for real)
If I get someone on the phone that's plain rude to me and makes hurtful comments, I will tell them off, using as many veiled expletives as the dutch language allowes, tell them to sit on the bench, cool down and call back in half an hour. I warn my vccollegues about this person and if I see his phone-number again before his 30 mins are up, I will refuse to help him for an hour.
I am not payed to take abuse.
The frumious Talkasmack! |
Twisted Valentine
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Posted - 2003.11.03 19:53:00 -
[47]
Well, honestly, Hellmar .. what to you expect?
You ask us to submit questions and promise answers on Friday.
You don't deliver on that promise, so we call you on your failure to deliver on the promise.
You don't respond.
We call you on your failure to respond to our calling you on your failure to deliver on the promise regarding the CSM questions.
You don't respond (again).
Bearing the above in mind, Hellmar, you can hardly be offended when we lose our tempers at being lied to and repeatedly ignored.
We are, after all, customers.
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Skaz
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Posted - 2003.11.03 19:57:00 -
[48]
Quote:
I work in customer support (for real)
If I get someone on the phone that's plain rude to me and makes hurtful comments, I will tell them off, using as many veiled expletives as the dutch language allowes, tell them to sit on the bench, cool down and call back in half an hour. I warn my vccollegues about this person and if I see his phone-number again before his 30 mins are up, I will refuse to help him for an hour.
I am not payed to take abuse.
hmmm but you are payed to provide a service for a product that works 99%? right?
Eve does not fullfill that standard......
"No, I'm not alt.....even if I have been in Pator Tech School for 2 years..." |
Pirindolo
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Posted - 2003.11.03 19:58:00 -
[49]
Jash, go ahead. You are right.
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McWatt
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Posted - 2003.11.03 20:00:00 -
[50]
well, looks like "shortly" means more than 3 hours
fact is, that the last csm-chat should have transported the message that patience is slowly running out over here.
i was extremly shocked by the link TomB made between changing the jump in point back to gates and solving the lag-issue, which Hellmar just confirmed on the dev-blog. (well, i was even more shocked by TomB having forgotten that he had done a similar "stupid" link between roid-spawn and deep-core mining)
as much as i d like the lag issues to be fixed, i seriously doubt that ccp can do this in reasonable time.
their lack of understanding for the frustration this issue is causing among players shows that they are in deep need of more communication with us, not less!
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Jash Illian
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Posted - 2003.11.03 20:13:00 -
[51]
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
No you can't. They have a job to do. That job involves communicating with the playerbase. "But they're mean to me!" is a childish excuse suitable for a 16 year old.
"I pay for this!" is also a crappy excuse.
Would _you_ communicate with an egotistical, rant-filled playerbase like this one for 0.33p a day?
If it was my job, yes.
Of course you're going to say that, because it's the easiest thing to say.
The real answer to that question, (if you were actually in his shoes) would be most definately no.
Whatever work ethic you want to believe in is your business. What you're saying is utter nonsense and offering a feeble excuse on CCP's part.
If your job is to do X task, you do X task to receive Y paycheck. Expecting people to hold you in awe because you have the ability to do X task is moronic. Expecting people to say nothing when you do not do X task is ludicrous.
If that's your particular work ethic, pray you never work for me. You'd be fired faster than I could tell my secretary to get you out of my damn building. And I'd enjoy personally writing the letter to the labor department denying any claims for unemployment. Terminated for Cause.
I mean its like you want corporations to oblige each other like its sex or something. Pffft I would rather **** my enemy.- Rohann
Be careful out there. That other guy waiting in the queue for the gate MIGHT be a baby-munching frock-burner, YOU JUST DON'T KNOW!- Lallante |
Locuila
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Posted - 2003.11.03 20:20:00 -
[52]
If that's your particular work ethic, pray you never work for me.
LOL! Too easy.
And who said that they haven't done it yet? It's not like they said they've scrapped it, it's been delayed further than their initial estimates.
I actually prefer it this way. I prefer to have something show up and be fully tested before being released to the public (and extending the deadline in the process), rather than get something pushed out the door to meet some customer's "deadline" and have it be totally unstable and buggy, and spend even MORE time trying to fix the fix.
___________________________________
I love being podded. - Hampstah |
Locuila
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Posted - 2003.11.03 20:25:00 -
[53]
Anyway, i've said my peace.
take it or leave it
___________________________________
I love being podded. - Hampstah |
Joshua Calvert
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Posted - 2003.11.03 20:53:00 -
[54]
I'd rather have a considered response than one rushed out in response to Jash and His Escort of Whiners and Complainers.
Whining and Complaining acheive nothing.
If you wish to make a statement, cancel your subscriptions.
LEEEEERRRRRRRRRRROOOOOOOOOYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY! |
Mojo JoJo
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Posted - 2003.11.03 20:59:00 -
[55]
thank you jash
im not sure how hard it would be for pann to have posted here saying it would be delayed |
Pirindolo
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Posted - 2003.11.03 21:04:00 -
[56]
Quote:
I'd rather have a considered response than one rushed out in response to Jash and His Escort of Whiners and Complainers.
Whining and Complaining acheive nothing.
If you wish to make a statement, cancel your subscriptions.
I go to a bank, open an account and put 100$ there, because the bank promises a 10% interest rate.
7 months later, I check the account and I see there are only 50$. The bank says it is a temporal problem, they have not more money now, but they could get more soon(TM).
Calvert's solution: Cancel your account.
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Joshua Calvert
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Posted - 2003.11.03 21:07:00 -
[57]
Quote:
Quote:
I'd rather have a considered response than one rushed out in response to Jash and His Escort of Whiners and Complainers.
Whining and Complaining acheive nothing.
If you wish to make a statement, cancel your subscriptions.
I go to a bank, open an account and put 100$ there, because the bank promises a 10% interest rate.
7 months later, I check the account and I see there are only 50$. The bank says it is a temporal problem, they have not more money now, but they could get more soon(TM).
Calvert's solution: Cancel your account.
No, my solution is to walk the walk instead of talking the talk.
If you're staying, shut up.
If you're not, cancel your account.
CCP have shown, more than once, that they will not be swayed from whatever decisions they have taken by whiners and if it means the answers take a few more days then a few more days it will be.
LEEEEERRRRRRRRRRROOOOOOOOOYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY! |
Jash Illian
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Posted - 2003.11.03 21:08:00 -
[58]
Quote:
If that's your particular work ethic, pray you never work for me.
LOL! Too easy.
And who said that they haven't done it yet? It's not like they said they've scrapped it, it's been delayed further than their initial estimates.
I actually prefer it this way. I prefer to have something show up and be fully tested before being released to the public (and extending the deadline in the process), rather than get something pushed out the door to meet some customer's "deadline" and have it be totally unstable and buggy, and spend even MORE time trying to fix the fix.
I'm sorry. I didn't realize it required programming to answer a question.
My last question had nothing to do with current or upcoming features. It had to do with these forums and their moderation. Snitz notwithstanding, I was unaware that required programming as well.
There's a quote I like. It's semi-fitting under these circumstances:
Quote:
The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable man persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore, all progress depends on the unreasonable man.
- George Bernard Shaw
It doesn't quite fit as I don't find it unreasonable to be a bit miffed when someone says "by the end of the month" and 2-3 months later there isn't the slightest sign of it. I don't find it unreasonable that people are fed up with issues which require no programming.
If CCP had until people like yourself and Jessica Logan finally get fed up with the rate of progress, Battlecruiser Millenium Online would be going gold. Well they don't have that type of time. The outstanding issues are causing people to leave and they're taking their opinions with them.
Development studios do have a reputation in the business. It's formed by the people talking about the game and what goes on in it. SOE/Verant had a reputation for arrogance. Microsoft/Turbine had a reputation for naivette. Funcom had a reputation for incompetence. All had those reputations formed not by people like you or Jessica Logan. Those reputations were formed by the regular people who have some sense of standards and self worth.
CCP is building a reputation for apathy right now. It took major changes and a lot of time for Microsoft/Turbine, SOE/Verant and Funcom overcome the negative aspects of their reputations. But even Funcom had a larger playerbase at release than CCP has. Which means they had more time and money to survive the fallout of their reputations.
I mean its like you want corporations to oblige each other like its sex or something. Pffft I would rather **** my enemy.- Rohann
Be careful out there. That other guy waiting in the queue for the gate MIGHT be a baby-munching frock-burner, YOU JUST DON'T KNOW!- Lallante |
Jessica Logan
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Posted - 2003.11.03 21:09:00 -
[59]
Quote:
Quote:
I'd rather have a considered response than one rushed out in response to Jash and His Escort of Whiners and Complainers.
Whining and Complaining acheive nothing.
If you wish to make a statement, cancel your subscriptions.
I go to a bank, open an account and put 100$ there, because the bank promises a 10% interest rate.
7 months later, I check the account and I see there are only 50$. The bank says it is a temporal problem, they have not more money now, but they could get more soon(TM).
Calvert's solution: Cancel your account.
Illian's solution: Make a mockery of himself as he continues to use the service that he and his Merry Moaners complain about at every chance they get.
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McWatt
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Posted - 2003.11.03 21:13:00 -
[60]
Quote:
I actually prefer it this way. I prefer to have something show up and be fully tested before being released to the public (and extending the deadline in the process), rather than get something pushed out the door to meet some customer's "deadline" and have it be totally unstable and buggy, and spend even MORE time trying to fix the fix.
erm and what game are you playing? not eve, methinks.
slow but buggy is their way of doing things.
using the word "rushed" for a non-delivery 3 days past the date, as joshua does feels a little weird to me. but well..
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