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Glarion Garnier Solar Wind	Posted - 2006.10.24 21:34:00 - [61] The Null nerf is not needed. and Hail needs a boost. Make tech 2 ammo simpler: for all close range guns: longer range less dmg. (orginal null) high dmg less range tracking penalty (orginal void) for all long range guns high dmg short range ammo - simple more dmg than the tech 1 high range ammo (95% range same dmg as iron, etc.) - All this lets make broken ammo types makes no sense.
ArtemisEntreri Art of War Cult of War	Posted - 2006.10.24 21:42:00 - [62] Originally by: Butter Dog Originally by: webkert Why blasters got a longranged ammo in the first place is beyond me. Mega with null outdamages apoc using scorch at up to 25km. closerange my ass. Since when was under 25km long range? Amarr = kings of medium range and btw why compare apoc the worst of the worst bs?
Butter Dog The Dead Miners Society	Posted - 2006.10.24 21:44:00 - [63] Edited by: Butter Dog on 24/10/2006 21:44:01 Originally by: ArtemisEntreri Amarr = kings of medium range and btw why compare apoc the worst of the worst bs? lol, exactly... should really be comparing it to the gankageddon for DPS output
webkert Amarr Cutting Edge Incorporated RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2006.10.24 22:12:00 - [64] Originally by: Butter Dog Edited by: Butter Dog on 24/10/2006 21:44:01 Originally by: ArtemisEntreri Amarr = kings of medium range and btw why compare apoc the worst of the worst bs? lol, exactly... should really be comparing it to the gankageddon for DPS output No it shouldn't, because an apoc is so much more similar to a mega then a geddon is. Same slot layout, same tier, somewhat similar fitting reqs etc. read my post about geddon vs mega fitting and you'll see why. Its not just the apoc either, a tempest will have the same problem.
webkert Amarr Cutting Edge Incorporated RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2006.10.24 22:13:00 - [65] Originally by: Adamantium Beam Originally by: Hllaxiu Right, the geddon is a dedicated dps ship, it sacrifices alot of versatility for it. 8 lows looks pretty awesome for tanking too does it not. Until you actually start fitting it and realize how low it is on cpu and powergrid. With maxed skills a geddon using 7 mega pulse t2: 3300 pg left, 284.25 cpu megat has 4488 PG and 367.25 cpu left with 7 neutron t2s fitted. If you haven't tried a plated neutron mega yet you might want to, they are pretty awesome. Yeah more PG left on the meg but you need to put a mwd and a cap injector soo .... So does a geddon if its going to use its range advantage in any meaningful way.
Jin Entres Sharks With Frickin' Laser Beams Mercenary Coalition	Posted - 2006.10.24 22:21:00 - [66] In what kind of situations is it beneficial to use either Void or Null after these changes? Void - When you have a large target webbed, and transversal is close to zero. If you have Void pre-loaded, you are taking a big chance. If you don't, the damage increase will be negated by the reloading time. If the conditions are not optimal, the tracking will be so awful it will instead negate the damage increase on paper. Add to this the decrease in it's base damage and the uncertainty is just not worth it. Null - Since antimatter will now be the standard ammo, Null offers range at the expense of tracking and damage. Extra range and tracking (as opposed to Void) were useful against smaller ships. Without sufficient tracking, it's range advantage will do little good. Yes, under marginal conditions where you want to shoot at something big that can stay out of your antimatter range, it may be useful. The tracking decrease may be enough for Iridium to be better for that purpose, though. All in all, I think both T2 blaster ammos are nigh unuseable post Kali. It's a shame. I used to like them both. ---
doctorstupid2 Dirty Deeds Corp. Axiom Empire	Posted - 2006.10.24 22:25:00 - [67] Originally by: webkert Why blasters got a longranged ammo in the first place is beyond me. Mega with null outdamages apoc using scorch at up to 25km. closerange my ass. Null gave blasterships some much needed versatility, in my opinion. Being able to hit things at a modest range without having to get right up in their face (not always possible, leaving you dead in the water) is pretty freaking nice, but the damage of null charges is pretty high given the range boni, I will admit. If people are concerned about the damage output at longer ranges than antimatter allows, simply lower the damage, don't entirely cripple the ammo. I love my blasters, almost as much as I love my drones, and I would not be at all opposed to a decrease in damage to null, just don't kill its tracking and range
Leandro Salazar Aeon Industries	Posted - 2006.10.24 22:31:00 - [68] Well I am so glad that gallente share my pain, but where is the nerf to Barrage? Or is Minmatar now FOTM? (Yes I am quite bitter about the death of my favorite EVE pastime, instapopping NPC BCs with Jav torps) Nerf em all! --------- ZOMG my sig was concordokkened! Link removed due to bad language on remote site. -wystler
Butter Dog The Dead Miners Society	Posted - 2006.10.24 22:34:00 - [69] Originally by: webkert No it shouldn't, because an apoc is so much more similar to a mega then a geddon is. Same slot layout, same tier, somewhat similar fitting reqs etc. read my post about geddon vs mega fitting and you'll see why. Its not just the apoc either, a tempest will have the same problem. Well, you are comparing the DPS of a ship without a damage bonus, to a ship with one... then complaining about DPS to me that makes so sense... and also, you still have better DPS over 25km, and if you change to conflag you have better dps at closer range
Ozzie Asrail FATAL REVELATIONS Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2006.10.24 22:37:00 - [70] Originally by: Leandro Salazar Well I am so glad that gallente share my pain, but where is the nerf to Barrage? Or is Minmatar now FOTM? (Yes I am quite bitter about the death of my favorite EVE pastime, instapopping NPC BCs with Jav torps) Nerf em all! tbh i think it's a little sad, is your **** that small? forget ballance - your just happy other people got nerfed too regardless. btw i can use t2 torps and t2 hybrids -----
webkert Amarr Cutting Edge Incorporated RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2006.10.24 22:48:00 - [71] Originally by: Butter Dog Originally by: webkert No it shouldn't, because an apoc is so much more similar to a mega then a geddon is. Same slot layout, same tier, somewhat similar fitting reqs etc. read my post about geddon vs mega fitting and you'll see why. Its not just the apoc either, a tempest will have the same problem. Well, you are comparing the DPS of a ship without a damage bonus, to a ship with one... then complaining about DPS to me that makes so sense... and also, you still have better DPS over 25km, and if you change to conflag you have better dps at closer range To make lasers different from other weapon systems ccp gave them a built in damage bonus, increased cap usage by 50% and gave amarr ships a cap reduction bonus instead. Null thron outdamages conflag apoc at all ranges. But I must admit that giving null a tracking penalty is not the way to go. In a way its abit like conflagration, tracking penalty for an ammo that is supposed to be used just outside webrange is ****.
Leandro Salazar Aeon Industries	Posted - 2006.10.24 22:52:00 - [72] Originally by: Ozzie Asrail Originally by: Leandro Salazar Well I am so glad that gallente share my pain, but where is the nerf to Barrage? Or is Minmatar now FOTM? (Yes I am quite bitter about the death of my favorite EVE pastime, instapopping NPC BCs with Jav torps) Nerf em all! tbh i think it's a little sad, is your **** that small? forget ballance - your just happy other people got nerfed too regardless. btw i can use t2 torps and t2 hybrids Oh yeah I forgot that sarcasm isn't being taught to kids anymore these days. My heartfelt apologies. --------- ZOMG my sig was concordokkened! Link removed due to bad language on remote site. -wystler
Ozzie Asrail FATAL REVELATIONS Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2006.10.24 23:03:00 - [73] Sorry - sarcasm doesnt work on the net without using the standard <omgitsscarcasmyounoob> tag. Plus i just got moved from a stuck sytem into another frigging stuck system! -----
Leandro Salazar Aeon Industries	Posted - 2006.10.24 23:14:00 - [74] Well I just moved from #405 in queue to #400 so I feel your pain lol As for the topic, the Null nerf seems to be just as dumb as the Javelin torp nerf. A barely scratching hit by the nerfbat was needed in both cases (and is in the case of Barrage as well imho), but we got two wrecking hits... --------- ZOMG my sig was concordokkened! Link removed due to bad language on remote site. -wystler
Xori Ruscuv The Scope	Posted - 2006.10.24 23:16:00 - [75] Edited by: Xori Ruscuv on 24/10/2006 23:18:25 <whine> Ugh, they nerfed (unfairly) everything I've been training for over the last couple months. WTF. I guess I'll spend a couple more months training Minmatar. Minmatar is the new FOTM if you want to fly a gunship :( Guns need to be brought up to speed with drones and missiles. </whine> Nah, that wasn't sarcasm, I'm serious. I'm not done whining either. WTF is CCP doing to this game? PS. Oh yeah there was some guy yesterday who told me to stop saying that blasters wouldn't be possible to kill with without cap problems before killing the enemy. OK. Come again? Megathron with plate, ions, and antimatter? Hullo?
Skid Pants	Posted - 2006.10.24 23:51:00 - [76] iirc, barrage has lost a little of it's falloff bonus. Means those nasty little minny ships picking away at you from their falloff will have to get a little bit closer to do the same damage meaning more chance of getting webbed... And well, we all know what happens when minny ships get webbed then! Tbh, i think t2 ammo conception was a bad idea in the first place. Pretty much made t1 ammo worthless and faction ammo seem like a hanger novelty or an insult after blowing up a faction spawn and being rewarded with 1k rounds and a tag
Hex'Caliber Gallente	Posted - 2006.10.25 00:08:00 - [77] Now I would settle for dropping all t2 ammo and instead have a reasonable rof increase above the best named t1 variant for every t2 weapon. Would stop all this mess and would still make t2 weapons desirable. What the hell is the point of wasting time training for a weapon and ammo that now gimps our blaster setups? Great idea for the race that specialises in close quarters combat. Regards HexCaliber
Solusar Amarr Auctoritan Syndicate Curatores Veritatis Alliance	Posted - 2006.10.25 00:32:00 - [78] Time to sell the null and void stocks and go back to Antimatter.
Makaera Koshito Einherjar Rising Dusk and Dawn	Posted - 2006.10.25 03:02:00 - [79] Looks to me that the JavRailRokh will be the new Blasterthron.
MOS DEF E X O D U S Imperial Republic Of the North	Posted - 2006.10.25 09:39:00 - [80] Edited by: MOS DEF on 25/10/2006 09:40:56 Tuxford flies Vagabonds i swear! Tech 2 Blaster Ammo basically just got crushed. Barrage stays the same and extenders are boosted. You can boost the vaga even more with rigs on expense of armor too now! I forsee the vaga prioces will go up even more. Great job in boosting the allready overpowered ships. And no the stab nerf wont affect the vaga because it is fricken awesome without em. Funny is that noone ever had a problem with Null. I didn't read a single complaint. Why does he think he has to mess up stuff every now and then. Don't fix what's not broken! I do see the need to change Spike and Javelin since they simply were out of the line. Basically Blasters are the best tracking weapon in game but if you want to have the range to actually hit something or want to do serious damage you have to cut your tracking down. Blasters with AM ain't that great especially when i look at pulses + scorch.
webkert Amarr Cutting Edge Incorporated RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2006.10.25 10:15:00 - [81] How hard can it be to understand that null aint supposed to be an anti everything ammo with AM dps at conflagration range. The damn thing has "brokes" written on the side of it yet so many people fail to see it.
Butter Dog The Dead Miners Society	Posted - 2006.10.25 10:20:00 - [82] Originally by: webkert How hard can it be to understand that null aint supposed to be an anti everything ammo with AM dps at conflagration range. The damn thing has "brokes" written on the side of it yet so many people fail to see it. Firstly, Null didnt have antimatter DPS. Secondly, It was still utterly crappy on anything that was moving (in large blasters). It wasnt like Jav Torps which really were 'anti-everything'. Thirdly, it was useful on small ships like the Taranis and Thorax which rely on transversal to stay alive in many fights. What this change has done is not balance it, it has made Null not worth using. Seriously, why would anyone bother? Myabe if you had an officer web.
webkert Amarr Cutting Edge Incorporated RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2006.10.25 11:18:00 - [83] Edited by: webkert on 25/10/2006 11:20:20 Originally by: Butter Dog Firstly, Null didnt have antimatter DPS. Nope, but close to it. Originally by: Butter Dog Secondly, It was still utterly crappy on anything that was moving (in large blasters). It wasnt like Jav Torps which really were 'anti-everything'. Blasters have great tracking to begin with, and with the megathrons tracking bonus it can hit frigates inside webrange without to much trouble(try that with L pulses). Nope not quite as good as javelins, but then again javelins did have a speed reduction penalty. Null doesn't have any penaltys at all. But anyway it will still be useful against minne/amarr ships that try to kite.
Ithildin Gallente The Corporation	Posted - 2006.10.25 11:22:00 - [84] Originally by: webkert Originally by: Butter Dog Originally by: webkert How hard can it be to understand that null aint supposed to be an anti everything ammo with AM dps at conflagration range. The damn thing has "brokes" written on the side of it yet so many people fail to see it. Firstly, Null didnt have antimatter DPS. Nope, but close to it. Quote: Secondly, It was still utterly crappy on anything that was moving (in large blasters). It wasnt like Jav Torps which really were 'anti-everything'. Blasters have great tracking to begin with, and with the megathrons tracking bonus it can hit frigates inside webrange without to much trouble(try that with L pulses). Nope not quite as good as javelins, but then again javelins did have a speed reduction penalty. Null doesn't have any penaltys at all. But anyway it will still be useful against minne/amarr ships that try to kite. No, it couldn't hit frigates in web range. You're overexaggregating. It might've been able to hit a webbed cruiser if you didn't move. - What am I listening to?
murder one Gallente CRICE Corporation Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2006.10.25 11:23:00 - [85] Originally by: webkert Edited by: webkert on 25/10/2006 11:20:20 Originally by: Butter Dog Firstly, Null didnt have antimatter DPS. Nope, but close to it. Originally by: Butter Dog Secondly, It was still utterly crappy on anything that was moving (in large blasters). It wasnt like Jav Torps which really were 'anti-everything'. Blasters have great tracking to begin with, and with the megathrons tracking bonus it can hit frigates inside webrange without to much trouble(try that with L pulses). Nope not quite as good as javelins, but then again javelins did have a speed reduction penalty. Null doesn't have any penaltys at all. But anyway it will still be useful against minne/amarr ships that try to kite. You don't know what you're talking about. Plz stop talking. Because I said so...
Samirol Ore Mongers	Posted - 2006.10.25 11:26:00 - [86] noooo I dont like tux making this game blobby with more hp and lowering damages. This corp is recruiting. Billboard Project
Altai Saker Omniscient Order	Posted - 2006.10.25 11:27:00 - [87] This was put in because blasters were never meant to hit things well at 10-20 km, you want to hit something in a blaster boat? Web it. In a Rokh with Neutrons on you would get silly range, this is a clear counter to that. Good change imo gives the pulse geddon a good niche in combat.
Butter Dog The Dead Miners Society	Posted - 2006.10.25 11:30:00 - [88] Originally by: webkert Edited by: webkert on 25/10/2006 11:20:20 Originally by: Butter Dog Firstly, Null didnt have antimatter DPS. Nope, but close to it. Originally by: Butter Dog Secondly, It was still utterly crappy on anything that was moving (in large blasters). It wasnt like Jav Torps which really were 'anti-everything'. Blasters have great tracking to begin with, and with the megathrons tracking bonus it can hit frigates inside webrange without to much trouble(try that with L pulses). Nope not quite as good as javelins, but then again javelins did have a speed reduction penalty. Null doesn't have any penaltys at all. But anyway it will still be useful against minne/amarr ships that try to kite. I guess you don't fly a blasterthon. 'Good tracking'.... lol
migwar Viziam	Posted - 2006.10.25 11:39:00 - [89] my experience of t2 blaster is soley based on the s version in a ranis Using void against anything smaller that a BC resulted in more misses than hits, I only really used void against BS and BC, Against all other targets antimatter was usually a better option, seems now it will be worse, ah well at least AM is cheap
Mr Fringle	Posted - 2006.10.25 11:45:00 - [90] I agree that NULL ammo give blasters range that was really the main advantage of using projectile turrets, but I dont think that NULL should be nerfed this much, maybe just have it as a less damaging ammo but with tracking speed bonuses?

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