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Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2006.10.25 13:37:00 -
[1]
There is a rather large group of people that feel like the bonuses on the Abaddon are "just not right" (myself included), and that SOMETHING must be done with this ship, as it seems to lack either a clear role on the PvP landscape, or at least it lacks the means to fill its intended (fleetship? gankship? tankship? jack-of-all-trades?) role.
MAX ADVANTAGES:
5% RoF bonus -> +33% DPS (no alpha increase)
5% armor resists -> +33% armor HP "effectiveness" (pre-existing and repaired)
DISADVANTAGE:
No effective means to mitigate large energy turret capacitor consumption, so it runs out of capacitor pretty fast even with heavy boosters running if trying to fit 8 large lasers (of any kind).
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Links to most vocal Abaddon-dedicated discutions around so far (both hailing it as the best thing or worst thing Amarr could get):
Abaddon and rigs
Abaddon test runs
My previous attempt at alternatives
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Please discuss here not so much what it can or can not fit, but rather what this ship is GOOD for, and how good it is compared to other Amarr ships at it... and what it is bad for, why, and what could you do to change that (if anything).
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-sig-
This is my only char. These are my skills
Always question everything, including yourself |
Guurzak
Minmatar
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Posted - 2006.10.25 13:46:00 -
[2]
"no alpha increase"
What do you need alpha for? Your accumulated damage exceeds that of a Maelstrom starting at 6.5 seconds when your second volley lands; by the time the Maelstrom fires a second time, you're already firing your third.
Your DPS is insane for the first 60 seconds of the battle, significantly greater than anything else in the game short of a siege dread. That needs a pretty potent drawback. If you'd rather have less damage with a sustainable cap, you can choose to fire fewer of your guns, or just fly a Geddon instead.
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Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2006.10.25 14:08:00 -
[3]
Wait a second there.
You get +33% DPS average above an Apocalypse and same 3 heavy drones.
You get exactly +14.28% DPS above an Armageddon but 2 less heavy drones (Arma gets 5).
BOTH other Amarr ships use ludicrously lower amounts of capacitor to power their weapons.
So while Abaddon can barely sustain a barrage of fire over more than a couple of minutes (when both others can fire indefinetely), all you have running for you is an equivalent +33% armor HP (and +33% HP repaired), in the form of (max) 25% to armor resists.
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Now, on to the other problem.
Do you honestly believe you can destroy ANY OTHER BS with your weapons in those couple of minutes, before you run out of either gank, tank, or both ?
Remember, you're using lasers. That's a good deal of EM damage. Even with a 1500 raw DPS for 120 seconds, that's a mere 180k worth of *RAW* EM/Thermal damage, most likely more EM than thermal.
Then again, look at how much YOU can tank in those 120 seconds... you'd maybe have been already destroyed twice over yourself by a blaster/rail setup, for instance.
The main idea is that both previous Amarr BSs can fill any role the Abaddon might try to fill, and do it better not in spite of, but especially BECAUSE of the capacitor usage bonus on lasers.
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Well, there's always the alternative of projectiles on it, and quite probably what WILL be happening with it IF it stays in the current form.
Might as well give it a bonus to large projectile weapons instead, so it has two usable bonuses instead on one.
Or just add the third bonus of laser capusage, which is not so much a bonus but a penality reduction.
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-sig-
This is my only char. These are my skills
Always question everything, including yourself |
Udyr Vulpayne
Amarr
PIE Inc.
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Posted - 2006.10.25 16:28:00 -
[4]
 Originally by: Akita T
Please discuss here not so much what it can or can not fit, but rather what this ship is GOOD for, and how good it is compared to other Amarr ships at it...
it seems quiet obvious that this ship can fullfil the current roles of both apoc and geddon nicely. so i would very much like to know what the new role this ship will add to an amarrian fleet is and why we need a ship such a this.
to further clarify: i dont consider a better geddon or better apoc a new role and i dont think that was the original intention behind tier3 bs.
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Eclipsen413
KNIGHTS OF THE ROUND
Novus Ordos Seclorum
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Posted - 2006.10.25 16:37:00 -
[5]
just give it the geddons bonus'
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you're slower than Stephen Hawking in a snow storm |
Luric Vizjier
The Legion of Spoon
Curatores Veritatis Alliance
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Posted - 2006.10.25 17:08:00 -
[6]
Edited by: Luric Vizjier on 25/10/2006 17:08:26
Originally by: Udyr Vulpayne
Originally by: Akita T
Please discuss here not so much what it can or can not fit, but rather what this ship is GOOD for, and how good it is compared to other Amarr ships at it...
it seems quiet obvious that this ship can fullfil the current roles of both apoc and geddon nicely. so i would very much like to know what the new role this ship will add to an amarrian fleet is and why we need a ship such a this.
to further clarify: i dont consider a better geddon or better apoc a new role and i dont think that was the original intention behind tier3 bs.
It is a better Armageddon, but it is in no way a better Apoc. An Apoc can actually support a tank if using for example dual heavy beams, an Abaddon cannot.
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Udyr Vulpayne
Amarr
PIE Inc.
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Posted - 2006.10.25 18:28:00 -
[7]
Originally by: Luric Vizjier
It is a better Armageddon, but it is in no way a better Apoc. An Apoc can actually support a tank if using for example dual heavy beams, an Abaddon cannot.
oh the abaddon can also support a tank. you may just want to use projectile weapons instead of lasers. looking at its bonuses i think thats what tux had in mind for the ship.
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Nyxus
GALAXIAN
Rule of Three
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Posted - 2006.10.25 19:04:00 -
[8]
Some comparisons w/ 3 damage mods TachyIIs/452IIs and Aurora/spike. For comparisons sake, a 2 LAR II w/max skills is 71 cap/s. A heavy cap injector is 800cap/15sec= 53 cap/s not including reloading.
Abaddon: 110 cap/s
Armageddon: 48 cap/s
Apocalypse: 41 cap/s
Rokh: 34cap/s
Megathron: 30cap/s
3 damage mods, Megapulse/Neutrons, and Void/Conflag
Abaddon: 55 cap/s
Armageddon: 24 cap/s
Apocalypse: 21 cap/s
Hyperion: 19 cap/s
Megathron: 17 cap/s
The Armageddon matches the Abaddon damage at close range for less cost (build+guns) and HALF the cap use.
You *can't* tank the Abaddon with Lasers effectively because of cap use. You just don't have the cap to run anything else very effectively. Sure you can put ACs on it. But why should I put projectiles on the ship with no bonuses for them?
Even close range it only matches the Geddon in damage, and it suffers from TWICE the cap cost. You rarely see geddons now, how is the Abaddon adding anything to the Amarrian fleet?
Rokh and Hyperion really round out their racial ships. Cal and Gall BS are very different, and all have useful niches.
Amarr need the same thing.
Nyxus
It's great being Amarr, ain't it?Ö
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murder one
Gallente
CRICE Corporation
Lotka Volterra
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Posted - 2006.10.25 19:14:00 -
[9]
Originally by: Nyxus
Some comparisons w/ 3 damage mods TachyIIs/452IIs and Aurora/spike. For comparisons sake, a 2 LAR II w/max skills is 71 cap/s. A heavy cap injector is 800cap/15sec= 53 cap/s not including reloading.
Abaddon: 110 cap/s
Armageddon: 48 cap/s
Apocalypse: 41 cap/s
Rokh: 34cap/s
Megathron: 30cap/s
3 damage mods, Megapulse/Neutrons, and Void/Conflag
Abaddon: 55 cap/s
Armageddon: 24 cap/s
Apocalypse: 21 cap/s
Hyperion: 19 cap/s
Megathron: 17 cap/s
The Armageddon matches the Abaddon damage at close range for less cost (build+guns) and HALF the cap use.
You *can't* tank the Abaddon with Lasers effectively because of cap use. You just don't have the cap to run anything else very effectively. Sure you can put ACs on it. But why should I put projectiles on the ship with no bonuses for them?
Even close range it only matches the Geddon in damage, and it suffers from TWICE the cap cost. You rarely see geddons now, how is the Abaddon adding anything to the Amarrian fleet?
Rokh and Hyperion really round out their racial ships. Cal and Gall BS are very different, and all have useful niches.
Amarr need the same thing.
Nyxus
just had to lol at that last part about the Hyperion.
Because I said so...
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Nyxus
GALAXIAN
Rule of Three
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Posted - 2006.10.25 20:11:00 -
[10]
Originally by: murder one
just had to lol at that last part about the Hyperion.
I said it rounded out the ships. I never said that it did so effectively. 
Caldari: Missile boat, Turret boat, ECM boat
Gall: Rail boat, Drone boat, blaster boat
Minnie: Mixed weapon boat, AC/Artie flexible boat, Artie Platform (maybe AC)
Amarr: Ganker, Tanker, Ganker/Tanker
Amarr desperately need some variety in thier ships. We have a missile frig, a drone cruiser/recons, and need something for our BS sized too.
Add 7 launchers for 8turrets/7highs Tux. It's the only thing that makes sense. But if you won't do that......do SOMETHING for the Abaddon.
Nyxus
It's great being Amarr, ain't it?Ö
Sig remmoved, please email [email protected] if you have any questions - Xorus |
Aberash
eXceed Inc.
Ascendant Frontier
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Posted - 2006.10.25 22:36:00 -
[11]
/signed
Looking at the stats for cap usage thats ridiculous
I doubt this ship will be getting a dual rep tank o.O single rep + plates etc to try and sustain the fight most likely - *sigh*
Like the sig? PM me for personalised sig - 10mil each
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Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2006.10.26 09:00:00 -
[12]
Well, 8 missile launchers, that would certainly be "unique" (as in weird) for Amarr.
With T2 torpedos being somewhat nerfed, even changing the weapon bonus to a launcher RoF or (?EM?) damage bonus, you would still have a ship that is both lacking in the DPS department and uncharacteristic of Amarr.
The fact remains, as long as Tier 3 Battleships are supposed to be (*****ble as) 8-(racial-)turret ships, the Amarr ship NEEDS the laser cap usage bonus in some form of other, period.
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-sig-
This is my only char. These are my skills
Always question everything, including yourself |
meppa
Black Omega Security
The OSS
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Posted - 2006.10.26 12:08:00 -
[13]
Quote:
For instance, you could increase the base maxcap on ship by 33% and lower cap recharge time by 33%, that would result in EXACTLY double effective cap recharge, and all worries are gone.
But that would make apocalypse totally obsolete. And abaddon would burn trough that cap also, much better is to change the rof bonus into energy turret cap use bonus and nothing else.
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Udyr Vulpayne
Amarr
PIE Inc.
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Posted - 2006.10.26 12:16:00 -
[14]
Originally by: meppa
But that would make apocalypse totally obsolete. And abaddon would burn trough that cap also, much better is to change the rof bonus into energy turret cap use bonus and nothing else.
so according to your idea we would have:
apoce: energy turret cap use / cap bonus
abaddon: energy turret cap use / 5% resists
both with he same slot layout but the abaddon having overal better stats as its a higher tier ship.
yeah that doesnt sound like just a better apoc at all 
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meppa
Black Omega Security
The OSS
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Posted - 2006.10.26 12:27:00 -
[15]
What other choises there are? Fitting autocannons? Changing our rof bonus from energy to projectile? Atm we have resitance bonus and rof bonus. Out of those we can't use rof bonus because we don't have capasitor to run guns. True, getting totally back to drawing board would be ideal and get a truly unique role ship but in current situation where kali is wanted out as soon as possible that might not be possible. Henche making it useful with as tiny changes as possible or in other words changing rof to cap use of energy turrets. Apoc would still have better cap, so it would function better in close combat encounters while abbadon would take fleet sniper role with better buffer type armour (higher resists and thicker armour plates).
Assuming we won't get total overhaul of whole ship but something needs to be done. What is your suggestion then?
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Udyr Vulpayne
Amarr
PIE Inc.
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Posted - 2006.10.26 13:07:00 -
[16]
Originally by: meppa
Assuming we won't get total overhaul of whole ship but something needs to be done. What is your suggestion then?
in the 2+ months since this terrrible design first came to light there have been numerous other ideas on what to do with the ship to make it somewhat different.
one thats rather easy to implement and sounds pretty nice would be from nyxus:
bonuses:
laser rof -> laser damage to help with the cap use
5% resistances stays
same slots but 8 turrets and 6 or 7 launchers.
you can still use it to outgank the geddon with lasers as per tux-devblog but now it also has a viable tankmode that does not include projectile weapons. as the launchers dont have any bonus attached to them its nowhere near as effective as a raven when in tankmode.
in addition to that it actually brings something new to the table as it allows amarrian battleships to deal some damage of a different type and without our easy to counter turrets.
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Nero Winger
Destructive Influence
Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2006.10.26 13:11:00 -
[17]
hmm.. ill wait another year and see how the seccond tier3 bs (like in frigclass and cruserclass allways exist 2 tier3 ships) will be like. in the meantime ill eather be a nice target or will skill another race. guess what ill do..
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Hansoloo
Supero Omnia
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Posted - 2006.10.26 13:13:00 -
[18]
amarr needs a missle boat. Maybe make this it?
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Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2006.10.26 13:23:00 -
[19]
8 hislots, 8 turrets, even up to 8 launchers (with no bonus to launchers)
-10% laser cap use, 5% armor resists
Compared to a Raven, it has exact same DPS with same ammo consumption (at L5 on Raven), but a LOWER range (same total flight time, so really useful only in point-blank-range combat)... and a much better ARMOR tank.
Meh, that would be a bit overpowered then, wouldn't it ?
_____
-sig-
This is my only char. These are my skills
Always question everything, including yourself |
meppa
Black Omega Security
The OSS
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Posted - 2006.10.26 13:40:00 -
[20]
Why not keep it amarr themed and make it pure missile, change rof to 5% em missile damage and give 8 missile slots then?
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Sniser
4S Corporation
Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2006.10.26 13:44:00 -
[21]
Edited by: Sniser on 26/10/2006 13:45:01
Now Amarr has learned some Tech from Minmatar ... and they developed:
Abaddon
- 5% rof laser each level
- 5% dmg laser each level
i would be happy with it 
It's great being Amarr, ain't it? |
meppa
Black Omega Security
The OSS
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Posted - 2006.10.26 13:50:00 -
[22]
I wouldn't be happy with rof and damage as still no cap to use them
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Kaiu
Hinkledolph and K Associates
The SUdden Death Squad
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Posted - 2006.10.26 14:27:00 -
[23]
How about...
+5% to Armor repair effectiveness
+15% to Drone Damage and HP
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MOGarmy
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Nyxus
GALAXIAN
Rule of Three
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Posted - 2006.10.26 14:32:00 -
[24]
Uldyr linked my original post from 2 months back on how to make the Abaddon at least fufill the 2 roles that Tux said it had.
I would like to point out something else that NEEDS to change on the Abaddon. The PG was actually nerfed from its previously too low amount that was listed 3 months ago (or so).
Original Base PG: 22000
Base PG on Sisi: 21000 = 26250 w/skills.
8 Tachy base grid = 29700
With AWU 5 the Abaddon should be able to *JUST* fit a full rack of Tachys, just like the Temp/Maelstrom/Mega can fit a full rack of Arties/Rails.
Abaddon New Base PG = 24000pg
New Base PG with Skills: 30000pg
Total PG left after 8 Tachys = 300pg
300pg @ AWU 5 is fair since it will require an RCU II for anything else just like all the other long range ships.
Nyxus
It's great being Amarr, ain't it?Ö
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Kaiu
Hinkledolph and K Associates
The SUdden Death Squad
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Posted - 2006.10.26 14:32:00 -
[25]
Obviously increase the Drone bay drasticly
Drop a turret slot
Anyone else think it 'looks' like a giant Drone Carrier ship?
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MOGarmy
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Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2006.10.26 14:34:00 -
[26]
5% armor resists is equal (at L5) with +33% armor HP and +33% repairer effectiveness
7.5% repairer effectiveness is slightly better as a resists bonus for repair rate, but far worse in HP buffer
5% to repaierer effectiveness is a worthless bonus in comparison to a 5% armor resist bonus
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-sig-
This is my only char. These are my skills
Always question everything, including yourself |
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