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Wolfways Minmatar Brutor tribe	Posted - 2006.10.25 14:11:00 - [1] While i've always known that pve is easier (i.e. less risky) than pvp i don't understand why PVE has to be dumbed-down aswell. Obviously AI isn't as clever as players (well most players ), but why do npc's always have to give players an easy time? Why can't npc's have a chance to pod players? It seems unfair to me that pve players have unrestricted ability to use things like implants, while because you get killed more in pvp they are mostly useless. Isn't the point of AI to become as close to being "real" as possible? Warning: May contain traces of sarcasm.
Crumplecorn Gallente Aerial Boundaries Inc. Interstellar Starbase Syndicate	Posted - 2006.10.25 14:14:00 - [2] Originally by: Wolfways Isn't the point of AI to become as close to being "real" as possible? Only in single player games. In Eve, NPCs are just interactive mining. ---------- IBTL \o/
Eskona Runningstar Eve University Ivy League	Posted - 2006.10.25 14:16:00 - [3] Any increase in AI comes along with an increase in needed processing power per NPC, hence more server-side lag. In my opinion thats the primary reason NPCs are more or less "not so bright". Apart from that, there usually are project management objections because marginal improvements in NPC behaviour based on improved AI might not be worth the resources invested from an overall gameplay / financing point of view.
Scoundrelus Unseen Jihad	Posted - 2006.10.25 14:18:00 - [4] Listen dude, there was once a time when they beefed AI intelligence. The problem is they became smarter then player. I jumped into a belt with my AF to kill some NPCs and they scrambled and webbed me and proceeded to pound on me out of my optimal range and all I could do was sit there and die. You don't want that do you? =============================================== We are Watching You.
Irashi Caldari Hunters Agency Firmus Ixion	Posted - 2006.10.25 14:20:00 - [5] It would upset the bears :( Say you've got your brand new Gisti fitted Navy Raven and a head full of uber implants... are you going to do missions in them if the rats have any chance of winning? If you go to motsu and sit outside the caldari navy station there at virtually any time of the day, chances are that you'll see about 10 faction battleships clustered around the dock at any one time. Are you saying you want to make their lives... challenging? By introducing some element of... risk??? Nah, just withdraw all concord protection from all but 1.0 systems and people can sort it out from there Dominix, Nosferatu, ECM, Webber, Tank, Drones, Spare cash, Insurance, No implants, Reckless attitude, Unresolved personal issues: Win
Wolfways Minmatar Brutor tribe	Posted - 2006.10.25 14:21:00 - [6] But wouldn't it make sense, from a gameplay point of view, to give npc's a chance to pod players if they destroy the ship? At least then implants would be of equal value to pvp and pve players. Delusions of invincibility combined with a strong homicidal urge... I have a kick-your-ass fetish
Amantus Murientor Tribe Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2006.10.25 14:24:00 - [7] The reason why they are easy is to compensate for the players being able to lose alot of wealth if they get their ship destroyed. Since losing a ship makes you lose a substantial amount of ISK if you have good fittings, PVE must be easy so that you can gain back that ISK. ----------- Proud member of Ushra'Khan DEATH TO SLAVERY!
Detavi Kade	Posted - 2006.10.25 14:28:00 - [8] I suggested that certain NPC's should be able to pod once, but got no positive responses. Oh wells. I still like the idea of NPC's podding, but I'm afraid that is too much for PVE'ers to accept. If you want AI, you're gonna have to go with PVP. As for webbing/scramming, NPC's still do this. I had a wonderfully setup Rifter doing L2's once, and ran into a webbing/scramming inty. He stayed out of my range, and basically peppered me to death. I could do nothing but sit there and watch my ship go boom. It's definitely something I won't forget. Good times!
Andrue Amarr	Posted - 2006.10.25 14:29:00 - [9] Edited by: Andrue on 25/10/2006 14:31:42 Originally by: Wolfways But wouldn't it make sense, from a gameplay point of view, to give npc's a chance to pod players if they destroy the ship? At least then implants would be of equal value to pvp and pve players. No, I think you're missing the point of PvE in Eve. Eve is supposed to be about PvP (combat or otherwise). PvE is just filler material. A way to earn a little cash, something to do while waiting for buddies to log on and (because CCP know human nature) something safe and predictable for the risk averse players to do. The majority of players (like the majority of humans) don't enjoy risk and they certainly don't enjoy it when playing a game to relax. If PvE became as risky as PvP a lot of the playerbase would up and leave. CCP also don't want to pour too many resources into because they'd rather encourage players to get into PvP. Bottom line:PvE is a time filler and sop to carebears (like me ). It shouldn't be anything more than that. If you want originality, challenge, risk and reward - go do PvP. -- (Battle hardened industrialist) [Brackley, UK] Linux is only free if your time is worthless
Lothena	Posted - 2006.10.25 14:51:00 - [10] Another thing is folks need something relatively easy to acquire wealth to relieve the stress/fear of risking millions of isk going into PVP. I for one wouldn't want to risk all I have in a single PVP fight which is what it would amount to given my current accumulated wealth. Not everyone playing Eve is in a big corp and has 100million isk an hour coming in the door.
Wolfways Minmatar Brutor tribe	Posted - 2006.10.25 14:58:00 - [11] Personally i don't care if i get killed by an npc or a player, it's all the same to me. I like both pvp and pve. What i do hate in games is when items are ingame that can only be used properly by one playstyle Can you use clones for pvp while keeping your implant-fitted main char safe in hisec for training skills? And if so, how does it affect training while you're playing your no-implant clone? Delusions of invincibility combined with a strong homicidal urge... I have a kick-your-ass fetish
D2O HeavyWater Synergy. Imperial Republic Of the North	Posted - 2006.10.25 15:06:00 - [12] I think they balance of PVE/PVP is just right. I PVE to earn isk and PVP to spend it.
Taram Caldar Caldari Acheron Vanguard Armada The Shadow Ascension	Posted - 2006.10.25 15:10:00 - [13] Edited by: Taram Caldar on 25/10/2006 15:10:13 ermmm no thanks. If I want to risk podding I fly in 0.0 (interestingly I spend 90%+ of my time in 0.0 or lowsec). If I just need a way to make safe ISK I do missions in highsec. Sometimes, livin out in the wilderness, you lose a bit more than you would like and need a "safe" way to recoup. Take that away and people will quit in droves... not just the carebears either.
Wolfways Minmatar Brutor tribe	Posted - 2006.10.25 15:15:00 - [14] Originally by: D2O HeavyWater I think they balance of PVE/PVP is just right. I PVE to earn isk and PVP to spend it. Wouldn't perfect balance be earning and losing the same in both pvp and pve? Delusions of invincibility combined with a strong homicidal urge... I have a kick-your-ass fetish
Luke Pubcrawler	Posted - 2006.10.25 15:17:00 - [15] Originally by: Wolfways Can you use clones for pvp while keeping your implant-fitted main char safe in hisec for training skills? And if so, how does it affect training while you're playing your no-implant clone? Yes you can. I ahve 4 clones and what i think of as the real me. Real me sits at an Empire station with available lvl3 and 4 agents (4 gives mostly courier). He has a head full of =3 implants and nver leaves highsec. Clone 1 is identical but in Gallente space as I run missions up there for variety of taeget - there are some I dont get from amarr agents Clone 2 is about 10 jumps from real me in a 0.5 system with first class Kernite, belts with my giant cans placed in them plus an osprey(soon barge) and hauler Clones 3 and 4 are at stations in 0.0 - one near empire, one deep, with ratting BCs. No implants better than +1 This lets me change change routine and playstyle to suit mood or learning needs. It also lets me avoid lowsec completely which is a big bonus.
Death Kill Caldari direkte	Posted - 2006.10.25 15:19:00 - [16] Originally by: Scoundrelus all I could do was sit there and die. You don't want that do you? Yes I do. N=R* x fp x ne x fl x Fi x fc x L
Luke Pubcrawler	Posted - 2006.10.25 15:20:00 - [17] I would like PvE missions to be more challenging, although I would like to aviod podding :) Better AI would be good I actually find 0.0 ratting much more of a challenge. Fighting 2 BS rats and a couple of webbing frigates, whilst watching local and trying to keep at least close to aligned for a jump clear, is more fun than fighting the massed hordes of small stuff in most missions.
Raquel Smith Caldari Ferengi Commerce Authority	Posted - 2006.10.25 15:21:00 - [18] Let's see how well you hold up in World's Collide (any level) when the entire stage jumps you (25 vs 1 is better than 6 vs 1).
D2O HeavyWater Synergy. Imperial Republic Of the North	Posted - 2006.10.25 15:28:00 - [19] Originally by: Wolfways Originally by: D2O HeavyWater I think they balance of PVE/PVP is just right. I PVE to earn isk and PVP to spend it. Wouldn't perfect balance be earning and losing the same in both pvp and pve? Erm........No. Otherwise there would be no point to pve i would just pvp all the time and earn a lot less iskies.
Luke Pubcrawler	Posted - 2006.10.25 15:28:00 - [20] Originally by: Raquel Smith Let's see how well you hold up in World's Collide (any level) when the entire stage jumps you (25 vs 1 is better than 6 vs 1). Worlds collide is the most fun level 1 mission. Never seen it at 2-3 and I am still careful with 4s. It is fun because you can do it with a little more thought than the average mission - as I am sure you know you need speed and a decent tank not firepower. WC 1 taught me more about tanking than most players on this forum could (and yes it killed me the first time but it would have made no difference if it podded me as I had no implants then).
Taram Caldar Caldari Acheron Vanguard Armada The Shadow Ascension	Posted - 2006.10.25 15:30:00 - [21] Originally by: Raquel Smith Let's see how well you hold up in World's Collide (any level) when the entire stage jumps you (25 vs 1 is better than 6 vs 1). World's collide is easy because you can just warp away if things get too hot. ;) (hint: Kill the scrammers first if you're in the level 3/4 version). When you come out it's even easier because they'll now be spread all over the grid from chasing you the first time and you can pick them off a couple at a time.
Godar Marak Amarr Return Of Red Dawn	Posted - 2006.10.25 15:35:00 - [22] Edited by: Godar Marak on 25/10/2006 15:34:55 Its about time NPC's were made harder. They are simplt too easy to kill. Atleast introduce capitol ships with the best officer spawns. -------------------- Tuxford you broke my beloved EVE
Insidi Us Amarr The Imperial Commonwealth Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2006.10.25 15:41:00 - [23] Edited by: Insidi Us on 25/10/2006 15:41:58 Originally by: D2O HeavyWater Erm........No. Otherwise there would be no point to pve i would just pvp all the time and earn a lot less iskies. Uhh....from what you're saying there IS still a point to PvE, which is that you would make more money. -----------
D2O HeavyWater Synergy. Imperial Republic Of the North	Posted - 2006.10.25 15:52:00 - [24] Originally by: Insidi Us Edited by: Insidi Us on 25/10/2006 15:41:58 Originally by: D2O HeavyWater Erm........No. Otherwise there would be no point to pve i would just pvp all the time and earn a lot less iskies. Uhh....from what you're saying there IS still a point to PvE, which is that you would make more money. Really??? If your running a high risk of losing your pod doing PvE same as u are in PvP then I would take my chances on PvP as the loot is a lot better than PvE. The only reason I do PvE is because its low risk/moderate reward. PvP is high risk with varying rewards from crap loot to t2/faction fittings. I doubt many people will do PvE if they make it as high risk as PvP. It will be intersting to see how factional warfare evolves, as I interpret it I think it will be a mixture of PvP & PvE, now that sounds good.
Insidi Us Amarr The Imperial Commonwealth Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2006.10.25 16:02:00 - [25] Edited by: Insidi Us on 25/10/2006 16:03:46 Okay now you're saying you'd make more money in PvP...which is it? And you act like you're going to get podded on every single mission. The chances of podding wouldn't be 100% (I'd hope it was something like scrambler rats, who have specific names you can shoot first), and most missions have set strategies and aggro order, which is something you'll never get in PvP, unless you come across a Dominix. Is there an eveinfo site for players, like there is for missions? Belt ratting is even easier, because you can choose your warp in distance. So yes, your risk is inherently lower just by attacking AI players, and eventually the podding rat names will be known, and you'll kill those first, and you'll go on like you always have. You can't accurately say the risk will be the same for both PvE and PvP, with the podding proposal, and the only thing that differentiates the two are the ISK rewards. -----------
Wolfways Minmatar Brutor tribe	Posted - 2006.10.25 16:08:00 - [26] Originally by: D2O HeavyWater Originally by: Wolfways Originally by: D2O HeavyWater I think they balance of PVE/PVP is just right. I PVE to earn isk and PVP to spend it. Wouldn't perfect balance be earning and losing the same in both pvp and pve? Erm........No. Otherwise there would be no point to pve i would just pvp all the time and earn a lot less iskies. My point about perfect balance means same risk for the same reward. In that case there'd still be a reason for pve...opponents who are always online. Delusions of invincibility combined with a strong homicidal urge... I have a kick-your-ass fetish
D2O HeavyWater Synergy. Imperial Republic Of the North	Posted - 2006.10.25 16:15:00 - [27] Originally by: Wolfways Originally by: D2O HeavyWater Originally by: Wolfways Originally by: D2O HeavyWater I think they balance of PVE/PVP is just right. I PVE to earn isk and PVP to spend it. Wouldn't perfect balance be earning and losing the same in both pvp and pve? Erm........No. Otherwise there would be no point to pve i would just pvp all the time and earn a lot less iskies. My point about perfect balance means same risk for the same reward. In that case there'd still be a reason for pve...opponents who are always online. If you have same risk/reward in pve as pvp then why not just scrap concord and have a free for all??? If you want risk/reward do PVP it doesnt make any sense to try and make make PvE the same as PvP???? With what your asking why not just scrap pve altogether and all just pvp its a lot more thrilling knowing your going 1v1 with another person and its not like your short of players to fight.
ElCoCo KIA Corp	Posted - 2006.10.25 16:17:00 - [28] Before engaging in PvP.... you have to have earned some money somehow. Exciting isn't it... we're all a bunch of PvE'ers
Wolfways Minmatar Brutor tribe	Posted - 2006.10.25 16:24:00 - [29] Originally by: D2O HeavyWater Originally by: Wolfways Originally by: D2O HeavyWater Originally by: Wolfways Originally by: D2O HeavyWater I think they balance of PVE/PVP is just right. I PVE to earn isk and PVP to spend it. Wouldn't perfect balance be earning and losing the same in both pvp and pve? Erm........No. Otherwise there would be no point to pve i would just pvp all the time and earn a lot less iskies. My point about perfect balance means same risk for the same reward. In that case there'd still be a reason for pve...opponents who are always online. If you have same risk/reward in pve as pvp then why not just scrap concord and have a free for all??? If you want risk/reward do PVP it doesnt make any sense to try and make make PvE the same as PvP???? With what your asking why not just scrap pve altogether and all just pvp its a lot more thrilling knowing your going 1v1 with another person and its not like your short of players to fight. There's always a reason to keep pve. For example, for all its faults at least the AI doesn't smacktalk And some players just don't like to fight other players for some reason. Delusions of invincibility combined with a strong homicidal urge... I have a kick-your-ass fetish
Wolfways Minmatar Brutor tribe	Posted - 2006.10.25 16:32:00 - [30] Originally by: Kim Chee Originally by: Wolfways But wouldn't it make sense, from a gameplay point of view, to give npc's a chance to pod players if they destroy the ship? At least then implants would be of equal value to pvp and pve players. Yeah, but if they start making the NPC's realistic.. they'll have to force them to carry cargo holds full of ammo and actually RUN OUT during a long fight. Then some smart-arse player will build an uber-tank and just sit there until all the rats are adrift with empty caps and no ammo, and launch a handful of missiles to collect the loot. That's realistic? So if you run out of ammo you just sit there waiting to die? But the point of my OP was that it's unfair that things like implants are very helpful to pve players, but almost useless to those who pvp. Delusions of invincibility combined with a strong homicidal urge... I have a kick-your-ass fetish

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