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Purpose of RAVEN in kali

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Frezik Dirty Deeds Done Dirt Cheap	Posted - 2006.10.25 20:06:00 - [1] Originally by: Kamikaaazi T2 rage torps get their flight time decreased (20 sec > 10 sec). Allso they get their damage decreased (675 > 540). Explosion radius was decreased from 1000 to 600. 20% cap recharge penalty. The explosion radius reduction helps a lot: Sig radius of Raven: 460 Sig w/1 Target Painter: 460 * 1.25 = 575 Current ======= Damage mod for sig: 460 / 1000 = 0.46 Damage mod for sig w/TP: 575 / 1000 = 0.57 Normalized damage: 675 * 0.46 = 310 Normalized damage w/TP: 675 * 0.57 = 384.75 Kali ==== Damage mod for sig: 460 / 600 = 0.77 Damage mod for sig w/TP: 575 / 600 = 0.96 Normalized damage: 540 * 0.77 = 415.8 Normalized damage: 675 * 0.96 = 648 The reduction in base damage is more than made up for with the radius reduction when fighting vs. BS. They are nerfed, however, when fighting capital ships. As for range reductions--rubbish. Missiles break the widespread principle in Eve that high damage weapons are short range, and low damage weapons are long range. This just gets the range slightly more within Eve norms. Quote: T2 javelin torps are getting the biggest nerf here. Damage dropped from 450 to 380, explosion radius increased from 300 to 400. Flight time dropped from 25 sec to 12.5 sec. IIRC, their flight speed was significantly increased. Don't missile users complain all the time that missiles take too long to get to their targets? This change means you have about the same range, but don't have to wait as long between firing and hitting. As a class, Javelins should be lower damage, higher range versions of the original unguided missile. Quote: Max range on t1 torp raven is 126,562km, time to get there is 45 seconds. Allso remember that you arent doing full damage to your target unless it has more than 400 signature and isnt moving faster than 375m/s. You need to learn the missile damage formula. Without getting into the specific math, the damage reduction from speed is insignificant until you hit explosion velocity + 1500. In the example above, you won't see any noticeable reduction until the target is moving at least 1875 m/s.
Frezik Dirty Deeds Done Dirt Cheap	Posted - 2006.10.26 02:29:00 - [2] Originally by: Kamikaaazi you are lucky if you break 600 dps with 4 bcs II. Do some math before talking bull***. Since you asked so nicely . . . f(1) = 1 f(2) = 0.8708860 f(3) = 0.5705831 f(4) = 0.2829552 BCS I - 7% dmg, 7.5% ROF BCS II - 10% dmg, 10.5% ROF Siege Launcher II ROF - 19.2 Raven ROF Bonus - 5% Raven Launcher Slots - 6 Caldari BS Skill - lvl4 Raven ROF Bonus - 1-(0.05 4) = 0.8 Rapid Launch - lvl4 Rapid Launch Bonus - 1-(0.03 * 4) = 0.88 Missile Launcher Operation - lvl5 Missile Launcher Operation Bonus - 1-(0.02 * 5) = 0.9 Torpedo Launcher Specialization - lvl4 Torpedo Launcher Specialization Bonus - 1-(0.02 * 4) = 0.92 Siege Launcher II normalized ROF - 19.2 * 0.8 * 0.88 * 0.9 * 0.92 = 11.19 2xBCS I ROF - 0.075 + (0.075 * 0.8708860) = 0.14031645 3xBCS I ROF - 0.14031645 + (0.075 * 0.5705831) = 0.1831101825 4xBCS I ROF - 0.1831101825 + (0.075 * 0.2829552) = 0.2043318225 2xBCS I Dmg - 0.07 + (0.07 * 0.8708860) = 0.13096202 3xBCS I Dmg - 0.13096202 + (0.07 * 0.5705831) = 0.170902837 4xBCS I Dmg - 0.170902837 + (0.07 * 0.2829552) = 0.190709701 2xBCS II ROF - 0.105 + (0.105 * 0.8708860) = 0.19644303 3xBCS II ROF - 0.19644303 + (0.105 * 0.5705831) = 0.2563542555 4xBCS II ROF - 0.2563542555 + (0.105 * 0.2829552) = 0.2860645515 2xBCS II Dmg - 0.1 + (0.1 * 0.8708860) = 0.1870886 3xBCS II Dmg - 0.1870886 + (0.1 * 0.5705831) = 0.24414691 4xBCS II Dmg - 0.2829552 + (0.1 * 0.2829552) = 0.27244243 Warhead Upgrades - lvl4 Warhead Upgrades Bonus - 1+(0.02 * 4) = 1.08 Torpedos - lvl5 Torpedos Bonus - 1+(0.05 * 5) = 1.25 Total Skill Damage Bonus - 1.25 * 1.08 = 1.35 Current ======= Normalized Damage = 310 Damage w/Skills = 310 * 1.35 = 418.5 Burst Damage = 418.5 * 6 = 2511 DPS = 2511 / 11.19 = 166.2 DPS 1xBCS I = (2511 * 1.07) / (11.19 * (1-0.075) = 259.6 DPS 2xBCS I = (2511 * 1.13096202) / (11.19 * (1-0.14031645)) = 295.2 DPS 3xBCS I = (2511 * 1.170902837) / (11.19 * (1-0.1831101825)) = 321.6 DPS 4xBCS I = (2511 * 1.190709701) / (11.19 * (1-0.2043318225)) = 335.8 DPS 1xBCS II = (2511 * 1.1) / (11.19 * (1-0.105)) = 275.8 DPS 2xBCS II = (2511 * 1.1870886) / (11.19 * (1-0.19644303)) = 331.5 DPS 3xBCS II = (2511 * 1.24414691) / (11.19 * (1-0.2563542555)) = 375.4 DPS 4xBCS II = (2511 * 1.27244243) / (11.19 * (1-0.2860645515)) = 399.9 Normalized Damage w/TP = 384.75 Damage w/Skills = 384.75 * 1.35 = 519.4 Burst Damage = 519.4 * 6 = 3116.475 DPS = 3116.475 / 11.19 = 278.5 DPS 1xBCS I = (3116.475 * 1.07) / (11.19 * (1-0.075)) = 322.2 DPS 2xBCS I = (3116.475 * 1.13096202) / (11.19 * (1-0.14031645)) = 366.4 DPS 3xBCS I = (3116.475 * 1.170902837) / (11.19 * (1-0.1831101825)) = 399.2 DPS 4xBCS I = (3116.475 * 1.190709701) / (11.19 * (1-0.2043318225)) = 416.8 DPS 1xBCS II = (3116.475 * 1.1) / (11.19 * (1-0.105)) = 342.3 DPS 2xBCS II = (3116.475 * 1.1870886) / (11.19 * (1-0.19644303)) = 411.4 DPS 3xBCS II = (3116.475 * 1.24414691) / (11.19 * (1-0.2563542555)) = 466.0 DPS 4xBCS II = (3116.475 * 1.27244243) / (11.19 * (1-0.2860645515)) = 496.4 (con't)
Frezik Dirty Deeds Done Dirt Cheap	Posted - 2006.10.26 02:30:00 - [3] Edited by: Frezik on 26/10/2006 02:30:47 Kali ==== Normalized Damage = 415.8 Damage w/Skills = 415.8 * 1.35 = 561.33 Burst Damage = 561.33 * 6 = 3367.98 DPS = 3367.98 / 11.19 = 301.0 DPS 1xBCS I = (3367.98 * 1.07) / (11.19 * (1-0.075)) = 348.2 DPS 2xBCS I = (3367.98 * 1.13096202) / (11.19 * (1-0.14031645)) = 396.0 DPS 3xBCS I = (3367.98 * 1.170902837) / (11.19 * (1-0.1831101825)) = 431.4 DPS 4xBCS I = (3367.98 * 1.190709701) / (11.19 * (1-0.2043318225)) = 450.4 DPS 1xBCS II = (3367.98 * 1.1) / (11.19 * (1-0.105)) = 369.9 DPS 2xBCS II = (3367.98 * 1.1870886) / (11.19 * (1-0.19644303)) = 444.6 DPS 3xBCS II = (3367.98 * 1.24414691) / (11.19 * (1-0.2563542555)) = 503.6 DPS 4xBCS II = (3367.98 * 1.27244243) / (11.19 * (1-0.2860645515)) = 536.4 Normalized Damage w/TP = 648 Damage w/Skills = 648 * 1.35 = 874.8 Burst Damage = 874.8 * 6 = 5248.8 DPS = 5248.8 / 11.19 = 469.1 DPS 1xBCS I = (5248.8 * 1.07) / (11.19 * (1-0.075)) = 542.6 DPS 2xBCS I = (5248.8 * 1.13096202) / (11.19 * (1-0.14031645)) = 617.1 DPS 3xBCS I = (5248.8 * 1.170902837) / (11.19 * (1-0.1831101825)) = 672.3 DPS 4xBCS I = (5248.8 * 1.190709701) / (11.19 * (1-0.2043318225)) = 702.0 DPS 1xBCS II = (5248.8 * 1.1) / (11.19 * (1-0.105)) = 576.5 DPS 2xBCS II = (5248.8 * 1.1870886) / (11.19 * (1-0.19644303)) = 692.9 DPS 3xBCS II = (5248.8 * 1.24414691) / (11.19 * (1-0.2563542555)) = 784.8 DPS 4xBCS II = (5248.8 * 1.27244243) / (11.19 * (1-0.2860645515)) = 836.0
Frezik Dirty Deeds Done Dirt Cheap	Posted - 2006.10.26 14:18:00 - [4] Originally by: Zar Dim T2 Rages with 1 TP : 540 * 4001.3/600 = 468 [see how Frezik cheated in his calculations putting old rages damages] T1 Torps 450400/400= 450 Difference is minimal You're right, I did accidentally use the current damage in the Kali + TP calc. Should be: 540 * 0.96 = 518.4 Running with the 400 sig of the 'thron: Sig w/1 TP: 400 * 1.25 = 500 Current ======= Damage mod for sig: 400 / 1000 = 0.4 Damage mod for sig w/TP: 500 / 1000 = 0.5 Normalized damage: 675 * 0.4 = 270 Normalized damage w/TP: 675 * 0.5 = 337.5 Kali ==== Damage mod for sig: 400 / 600 = 0.667 Damage mod for sig w/TP: 500 / 600 = 0.833 Normalized damage: 540 * 0.667 = 360.18 Normalized damage w/TP: 540 * 0.833 = 449.82 This, of course, invalidates my calcs above for dps w/TP. What's wrong with having the Raven be a good small gang ship? Every ship has its niche, and the Raven is teh uberness at PvE, too. Leave fleet and solo work for other ships. (Actually, I don't think any BS should be good solo). This is not a nerf to rage torps, simply a change in role. They are now more effective against BS, and less effective against cap ships.
Frezik Dirty Deeds Done Dirt Cheap	Posted - 2006.10.26 14:22:00 - [5] Originally by: Grim Vandal It's retarded that for any other ship type but interceptors or vagabonds missiles explosion velocity has nearly no to no effect at all. Snake implants and specialized setups (<3 nanophoon) can do it, too.
Frezik Dirty Deeds Done Dirt Cheap	Posted - 2006.10.26 18:14:00 - [6] Originally by: Matyae Edited by: Matyae on 26/10/2006 14:35:20 Originally by: Frezik Kali ==== Normalized damage: 540 * 0.667 = 360.18 Normalized damage w/TP: 540 * 0.833 = 449.82 This is not a nerf to rage torps, simply a change in role. They are now more effective against BS, and less effective against cap ships. ? Your calcs here show that they are less effective against BS than a T1 torp. So how is this a change in role ? That was running against a 'thron w/1TP, which does indeed eek just below T1 torp damage. That damage will go up if the target is using an MWD, if you're using multiple target painters, or against larger BS. Recall, too, that inertia stabs are changed so that they have a viable role in some setups, but they penalize sig. Also, some rigs penalize sig. "Small gang" could be as small as your Raven and a friend in a Stilleto, Bellicose, or Huginn. You can sit ~50km from the target, where you can't get hit by any short range weapon, while your friend tackles in a tight orbit. Your friend can't get hit because of tracking, and you can't get hit because of range. Against long range weapons, come in close and keep your own transversal up. Lastly, when comparing these numbers to turrent BS, remember that these numbers are already corrected for sig, and speed has little effect for missiles against most viable BS setups. Transversal speed and range has a much larger role in bringing down turrent damage than missiles.
Frezik Dirty Deeds Done Dirt Cheap	Posted - 2006.10.26 18:16:00 - [7] Originally by: babylonstew next time you complain about that abbadon runnign out of cap, ill remind you its ok to bring a friend to use cap transfers for you then? as i mean, according to you, a bs needs 1 support pilot right? Sounds good to me. If anything, BS that don't need support should be fixed so that they do. Possible exception is the phoon, which is kinda supposed to be an oversized vaga
Frezik Dirty Deeds Done Dirt Cheap	Posted - 2006.10.28 03:34:00 - [8] Originally by: Leianna Easier to train for guns? spoken like a true noob caldari. Seriously did you even think before you posted? He was speaking of a full missile spec, which is indeed harder than specing for a set of turrents. Missiles allow you to have a skill path that is easier than guns (you don't need to specialize in light missiles before moving on to heavies), but specing in everything is indeed harder than guns.

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