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Miri Tirzan Caldari Reikoku Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.10.26 22:57:00 - [1] The Abaddon is not a better tanker than an Apoc. It can get slightly higher resists but lacks the cap to run the tank and do as much as a stock Apoc. It does not out gank the geddon since it has to load up on CPRs and CRs just to keep from firing itself dry. The bonuses are just wrong for what CCP says this ship should be. And yes I went on to SISI to test them. The RoF bonus ends up nerfing the ship since it eats up all the cap, even with injectors. If you fight close range, the geddons drones more than off set the Abaddon, so there is no advantage there. If you want it to choose between gank or tank, then give it some bonuses that actually make it a better ganker then a geddon or a better tanker than an Apoc. I would suggest that you tie the bonuses to the low slots so that the ship can ether be fitted with damage mods or be fitted with mods. So, I suggest that the bonuses be: 10% per level cap use reduction on Large Energy Turrets* 2% per level improved efficiency of low slot modules That way you can tank, or you can gank but you cannot put enough mod in to do both. *Unless lasers cap usage is made more in line with other races then all Amarr ships need to reduction bonus to use the weapons. Not even going to get into how cap usage should be lowered since lasers were nerfed to do the same damage before resists as all the other races. Anyway my time on SISI has shown me that Abaddon is not a better tanker or ganker than existing Amarr ships. svetlana - "whining gets you stuff. that is why humans got to the top of the food chain and all the other animals got nerfed."
Thud Caldari Mad-Warping-Maniacs	Posted - 2006.10.26 23:07:00 - [2] just switch the rof to a damage bonus. That should reduce the cap neep per damage. ____ ____ My english is bad.
meppa Black Omega Security The OSS	Posted - 2006.10.26 23:38:00 - [3] Lets stop and think about changing rof to damage. Yes yo u fire slower, 25% slower so you use 25% less cap. Current situation is that you kill your cap in little over 1 minute. So with that you kill your cap still in less then 2 minutes. Not good enough i would say unless you combine that with 10% per level cap reduction. But then every non amarrian would whine about how op abaddon is.
Benjamin Olson	Posted - 2006.10.26 23:46:00 - [4] I went on SISI and had no issues running 8x Mega Pulse II's and a LAR II with a few active hardeners at all. I used 1 cap injector with 800 charges and it lasted me about 8.5-9 minutes tanking station sentries. But tbh I like damage bonuses over RoF bonuses...so for the sake of getting the bonus. ITS BROKEN!
meppa Black Omega Security The OSS	Posted - 2006.10.26 23:48:00 - [5] What crystals were you using and what was your exact setup? I find it hard to believe unless you had lots of cap relays and cap chargers and or were using standard crystals (which give -50% to cap use).
starship enginer	Posted - 2006.10.27 00:08:00 - [6] Edited by: starship enginer on 27/10/2006 00:09:11 please ccp i want to gank 1400 dps and tank 750 dps its not fair that i cant do both with my biggest ugns and dual L reps its a fine ship, i have 2 setups for it, one with 1200 dps and 30k armor when in gang, with 2 energized adaptive and the 25% inbuilt bonus and a second setup that tanks 725DPS with STANDARD t2 gear and on top of that does over 790 DPS [btw that is by far the best tank ingame and sustainable for the duration of 99% of pvp situations, and its DPS its pretty dam uber too [btw this is assuming that high dmg t2 crystals still do 60dmg which i have yet to check on kali] edit: for those of u nubs, its the best non faction bs or lower tank
Miri Tirzan Caldari Reikoku Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.10.27 00:10:00 - [7] Originally by: Benjamin Olson I went on SISI and had no issues running 8x Mega Pulse II's and a LAR II with a few active hardeners at all. I used 1 cap injector with 800 charges and it lasted me about 8.5-9 minutes tanking station sentries. But tbh I like damage bonuses over RoF bonuses...so for the sake of getting the bonus. ITS BROKEN! Why use an Injector and charges when an Apoc can run the MP2s and the LAR/MAR without an injector. That is the whole point! geddon would not be using the LAR in gank mode and could have damage mods and CPRs without injector. svetlana - "whining gets you stuff. that is why humans got to the top of the food chain and all the other animals got nerfed."
Miri Tirzan Caldari Reikoku Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.10.27 00:17:00 - [8] Originally by: starship enginer Edited by: starship enginer on 27/10/2006 00:09:11 please ccp i want to gank 1400 dps and tank 750 dps its not fair that i cant do both with my biggest ugns and dual L reps its a fine ship, i have 2 setups for it, one with 1200 dps and 30k armor when in gang, with 2 energized adaptive and the 25% inbuilt bonus and a second setup that tanks 725DPS with STANDARD t2 gear and on top of that does over 790 DPS [btw that is by far the best tank ingame and sustainable for the duration of 99% of pvp situations, and its DPS its pretty dam uber too [btw this is assuming that high dmg t2 crystals still do 60dmg which i have yet to check on kali Well, for you noobs, if you go for full on tank the bonus only gets you 3-4 percent more resist over the Apoc and it cannot sustain weapons and LARs. The Apoc can, so the abaddon is not a better tanker than the Apoc. The abaddon has more damage for the first two minutes but even with injectors, it shoots itself dry after that. The geddon on does slightly less damage at range and at close range does more due to drones. The DoT of the geddon is higher than the abaddon once the abaddon has killed his cap. The abaddon is not a better ganker or a better tanker than the existing Amarr ships. Yeah, you can come up with a fitting that is great for the first 1-2 minutes of a fight but after that your nothing but a target. svetlana - "whining gets you stuff. that is why humans got to the top of the food chain and all the other animals got nerfed."
Nyphur Pillowsoft Interstellar Starbase Syndicate	Posted - 2006.10.27 00:58:00 - [9] Edited by: Nyphur on 27/10/2006 01:00:37 Cap injectors. No really, that's the ship's niche. When there is a supply of cap boosters around, the Abbadon should really shine. If lasers really do deal the same damage as, say, hybrids, they do indeed need their energy usage looked at. EDIT: The fact is, the Abbadon has cap problems by design but can make better use of capacitor than any other BS. It's the most efficient tank/gank ship there is and if you can keep its cap up with boosters or logistics, it'll outperform the existing BS. Eve-Tanking.com - For tanking spreadsheet and resources.
Ruze No Applicable Corporation	Posted - 2006.10.27 01:56:00 - [10] Personally, I see the Rate-of-Fire bonus as being the WORST bonus for any Amarr ship. Period. I do understand that a this bonus actually produces MORE damage per second. But I also have this little quirk in the back on my concience, telling me it's stupid. Damned 'common sense.' Common sense dictates that, if you are an Amarr and are using the standard Amarr weaponry, you do not have ammo. Instead, you consume capacitor, just like other ships consume ammo. This capacitor consumption is added onto whatever else you may be trying to operate. Capacitor is consumed with each shot from a laser weapon. If you fire faster, YOU CONSUME CAP AT A FASTER RATE. Bam. Out of ammo. Problem is, out of everything else, too, including the ability to use ECM, repair or warp away. Extended range bonus = Awesome. Damage per shot bonus = Awesome. Reduced cap use = Awesome. But Rate-of-Fire? Stupid. Of course, I'm an idiot ... Genesis Project
Siakel	Posted - 2006.10.27 03:17:00 - [11] Originally by: Nyphur Edited by: Nyphur on 27/10/2006 01:00:37 Cap injectors. No really, that's the ship's niche. When there is a supply of cap boosters around, the Abbadon should really shine. If lasers really do deal the same damage as, say, hybrids, they do indeed need their energy usage looked at. EDIT: The fact is, the Abbadon has cap problems by design but can make better use of capacitor than any other BS. It's the most efficient tank/gank ship there is and if you can keep its cap up with boosters or logistics, it'll outperform the existing BS. How is it the most efficient tank/gank ship in the game? Its cap/damage ratio is the worst in the game. That would make it the least efficient tank/gank ship, and it can only do one at the time, and does neither significantly better than its lower-tier bretheren. As for keeping its cap up with boosters, it'll use them faster than every other BS in existance while having a small cargo bay. Logistics ship? All that means is you drop the injector to fit something else, and maybe a repper or two. And... shock, horror.. every other BS in the game can do the exact same thing, if supported by a Logistics ship. The difference? The Abaddon needs more cap transfers than any other BS to do the same thing. Once again, not seeing how it outperforms. The only thing the Abaddon does better is sniping, and even then I'm not convinced it's worth paying triple the cost to get a ship with a tiny bit more DPS.
Aeaus Tabula Rasa Systems The Star Fraction	Posted - 2006.10.27 03:21:00 - [12] That and NPCing. Sniping Great, the Armageddon is good for sniping, and the Apocalypse is good for sniping with a lower dps but a higher alpha-strike. Do we really need annother ship for sniping? NPCing The tank this thing can sustain is huge, so that's what people will be going for while kitting out with low-capacitor usage lasers or projectiles. A good Abaddon pilot could tank upwards of 1000 DPS, half that if you go for a more sustainable single-rep tank.
meppa Black Omega Security The OSS	Posted - 2006.10.27 05:28:00 - [13] But the thing is, apocalypse can also sustain a monster tank and on top of that it can deal damage at the same. Apocalypse is also far more superior sniper then abaddon as you are out of cap too quickly. What comes to being forced to use cap injectors why do we still have just 4 mids? Sure we can fit double cap injectors, megapulses and tank, but then we don't have mid slots left for anything else needed in megapulse range. It might work with a nice mix of 4 heavy nosses and 4 megapulses. But thenagain, we have just 75m3 drone bay so it won't be great at that role. And anyone that doesn't need cap to fire would be serious weakness as once enemy is out of cap you lose your cap gain from nossing and then run out of cap. I just simply can't find a role where abaddon would be better then apocalypse or armageddon.
Kuolematon Space Perverts and Forum Warriors United	Posted - 2006.10.27 06:17:00 - [14] Originally by: starship enginer please ccp i want to gank 1400 dps and tank 750 dps its not fair that i cant do both with my biggest ugns and dual L reps You Caldari? Because we all know that CALDARI people keeps saying this because THEY CAN DO IT! TANK AND GANK NP! Caldari ftw! Part of forum movement known as "It's great being Amarr, ain't it?Ö" To be Kali, or not to be Lagi
Deathbarrage	Posted - 2006.10.27 06:20:00 - [15] people should stop arguementing it's not broken by giving setups that involve a cap injector and 4 additional cap mods... I honestly don't know any ship in this game that has to use cap mods additional to its cap injector to be functional... let alone 4-5
LWMaverick Quam Singulari Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2006.10.27 06:22:00 - [16] Originally by: starship enginer Edited by: starship enginer on 27/10/2006 00:09:11 please ccp i want to gank 1400 dps and tank 750 dps its not fair that i cant do both with my biggest ugns and dual L reps its a fine ship, i have 2 setups for it, one with 1200 dps and 30k armor when in gang, with 2 energized adaptive and the 25% inbuilt bonus and a second setup that tanks 725DPS with STANDARD t2 gear and on top of that does over 790 DPS [btw that is by far the best tank ingame and sustainable for the duration of 99% of pvp situations, and its DPS its pretty dam uber too [btw this is assuming that high dmg t2 crystals still do 60dmg which i have yet to check on kali] edit: for those of u nubs, its the best non faction bs or lower tank Another clueless nub tbh. Dps isnt everything.. Go ahead, keep being a math-smartass, the fact is, that this ship is broken, and that you have absolutly no damn clue what your talking about. Have you even flown the ship? Do you even fly amarr ships at all? /Mav <3
LWMaverick Quam Singulari Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2006.10.27 06:24:00 - [17] Originally by: Deathbarrage people should stop arguementing it's not broken by giving setups that involve a cap injector and 4 additional cap mods... I honestly don't know any ship in this game that has to use cap mods additional to its cap injector to be functional... let alone 4-5 Amen. <3
Elve Sorrow Amarr Shinra Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2006.10.27 06:29:00 - [18] I suppose im the only one that finds it ironic that the whole point of lasers is they dont use ammo, and that using Cap Charges to fire our bloody guns for a minute is pretty much a slap in the face to that advantage? It's great being Amarr, aint it?
Nyphur Pillowsoft Interstellar Starbase Syndicate	Posted - 2006.10.27 06:32:00 - [19] Originally by: Siakel How is it the most efficient tank/gank ship in the game? Its cap/damage ratio is the worst in the game. That would make it the least efficient tank/gank ship, and it can only do one at the time, and does neither significantly better than its lower-tier bretheren. As for keeping its cap up with boosters, it'll use them faster than every other BS in existance while having a small cargo bay. Logistics ship? All that means is you drop the injector to fit something else, and maybe a repper or two. And... shock, horror.. every other BS in the game can do the exact same thing, if supported by a Logistics ship. The difference? The Abaddon needs more cap transfers than any other BS to do the same thing. Once again, not seeing how it outperforms. The only thing the Abaddon does better is sniping, and even then I'm not convinced it's worth paying triple the cost to get a ship with a tiny bit more DPS. Fair point, the abbadon has a greater cap efficiency on its tank but an incredibly lower cap efficiency on its weapons. It makes better use of capacitor in tanking is what I meant. And when cap assisted, it can outdamage its counterparts at the same time. The abbadon gets more damage per second and more tanked damage per second than any other BS, but it needs cap support to do so. This argument that every other ship in the game is missing the point. Of course other ships can tank but they simply can't tank as well as the abbadon or deal as much damage. Assuming both ships have plenty of cap, the abbadon will come out on top against any other BS, so when cap-assisted by boosters or logisics, it's BETTER than every other ship in the same position. To be honest, the Abbadon might just end up being another Amarr projectile ship :/. Eve-Tanking.com - For tanking spreadsheet and resources.
Olavane Riftsnake The Caravan Guards Sylph Alliance	Posted - 2006.10.27 07:13:00 - [20] Sad... we need crystal to be reducend in size and make them be our ammunition, the cap is builtin the crystal. Any Jove engingering would help us to do that? I dont want to fit projecticle on abandon, it's very worse than do that on an apoc cause we lose the RoF bonus instead of th cap bonus this time
Red Horseman Dark Knights of Deneb Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2006.10.27 07:26:00 - [21] I wonder if they just threw 6-7 bonuses into a hat and drew two to put on the abaddon. This ship obviously doesn't have the capacitor cajones to run tachyons for more than 2 minutes; with artillery the only real drain on cap is the armor rep, and if you put a cap injector on it you could probably get away with a dual-rep tank second to none. In order to be a good snipe ship, you MUST fit artillery atm. But if you're going to do that, you would be better off flying a maelstrom. And it's all moot when the rokh's fly in and wtfpwn you from 50km outside your range. I think the only real possiblities for this ship are as a close-range autocannon boat. With the increase in armor plate hp bonuses, a couple 1600mm rolled tungsten will go a long way. Something like: ---8x 800mm repeating arty 2 --scram, web, sensor booster, tracking comp (maybe ecm/cap injector, whatever gets you hard) -1x LAR, dmg control, 2x 1600mm, 1x eanmII, 2x gyrostabII With a full slave set, this becomes a BEAST. It also renders the ROF bonus moot, but hey, amarr have always flown with one non-bonus, so it's nothing new to me :P /me goes out and buys small projectile turret skill Let the training begin.
Marcus Alkhaar Exotic Dancers Club	Posted - 2006.10.27 07:36:00 - [22] Red horse - armor reps are soooooo 2005 try this instead 8x Megapulse II 1x heavy injector 1x sensor booster II 1x ECCM 1x 20km scram 3x 1600mm rolled tungsten 3x Heat sink II 1x damage control with a slave set, gang skill, 3% armor implant and a RIG that gives you 15% armor you'll get a stunning.... 63000 ARMOR HITPOINTS !!! - with good resistance you are able to keep your guns + other modules online for +4 minutes dealing 1100 DPS with guns only... add 3 heavy webber drones and you'll have your enemy lose 75% of his speed too ...... either its stupidly overpowered or stupidly underpowered... it depends on the pilot and which setup he prefer to use cheers Originally by: darth solo I dont blame XS, tbh if i was in there shoes i wouldnt fight us either, its like bringing a caldari mountain sheep to fight a gallante war wolf(u like how i kept that in character
meppa Black Omega Security The OSS	Posted - 2006.10.27 07:45:00 - [23] And why wouldn't apoc do this better without cap injector? Atleast it can function after first skirmish as it hasn't runned out of booster charges.
Miri Tirzan Caldari Reikoku Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.10.27 09:47:00 - [24] Originally by: Marcus Alkhaar Red horse - armor reps are soooooo 2005 try this instead 8x Megapulse II 1x heavy injector 1x sensor booster II 1x ECCM 1x 20km scram 3x 1600mm rolled tungsten 3x Heat sink II 1x damage control with a slave set, gang skill, 3% armor implant and a RIG that gives you 15% armor you'll get a stunning.... 63000 ARMOR HITPOINTS !!! - with good resistance you are able to keep your guns + other modules online for +4 minutes dealing 1100 DPS with guns only... add 3 heavy webber drones and you'll have your enemy lose 75% of his speed too ...... either its stupidly overpowered or stupidly underpowered... it depends on the pilot and which setup he prefer to use cheers And you cannot do this just as well on EVERY OTHER SHIP? The Apoc is the better tanker, it can sustain the tank and only be a few percent less resist than an Abaddon. The geddon is a better ganker, it can sustain itself longer and has more drones. The point is that the Abaddon as it stands now is not a better tanker or ganker since it runs out of cap so fast. And no, I dont see having to dedicate rigs to cap reduction just so the ship can work is better when the other ships get a working damage bonus for thier weapons and can use rigs for something other than the minimum to make the ship functional. svetlana - "whining gets you stuff. that is why humans got to the top of the food chain and all the other animals got nerfed."
Ms Freak Amarr NCN Corp	Posted - 2006.10.27 10:19:00 - [25] Edited by: Ms Freak on 27/10/2006 10:19:52 I was on Sisi for quite some time the other day using the Abaddon and i must say i'm only impressed with the way it looks. I would fly an apoc over one of these everytime. It has the same fitting's as an Apoc but with more grid/cpu. I can see it being a very good sniper as you could fit more damage mods and tachs than an apoc would be able to but otherwise it's basicly rubbish. It won't tank lvl 4 missions as well as an apoc and it won't PvP as well as a geddon. Sniper Yes. Missions No. PvP No. Depending on how CCP release blueprints and player based prices theres nothing that would make we want to pay the inevitable 200mil price tag when i would better off in an Apoc unless i have T2 guns and want a -10?
Udyr Vulpayne Amarr PIE Inc.	Posted - 2006.10.27 10:51:00 - [26] Originally by: Nyphur Assuming both ships have plenty of cap, the abbadon will come out on top against any other BS, so when cap-assisted by boosters or logisics, it's BETTER than every other ship in the same position. or you know you could just use 2 geddons instead of 1 abaddon and 1 logistics ship.
Sonorra Baki	Posted - 2006.10.27 11:45:00 - [27] Originally by: starship enginer Edited by: starship enginer on 27/10/2006 00:09:11 its a fine ship, i have 2 setups for it, one with 1200 dps and 30k armor when in gang, with 2 energized adaptive and the 25% inbuilt bonus and a second setup that tanks 725DPS with STANDARD t2 gear and on top of that does over 790 DPS [btw that is by far the best tank ingame and sustainable for the duration of 99% of pvp situations, and its DPS its pretty dam uber too [btw this is assuming that high dmg t2 crystals still do 60dmg which i have yet to check on kali] edit: for those of u nubs, its the best non faction bs or lower tank Notice how this clueless nub apparently have nber setups for abaddon already, but is clueless about crystal stats in kali. yes yes you are a right genious .
King Dave Shinra Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2006.10.27 11:49:00 - [28] no the abbadon way outclasses the poc, as it can fit all this easily... apoc cant fit 8 mega pulse IIs and dual large armor rep and cap injector, abbadon basically can... stop whinign, i thought bob members knew more than this. ------------------------------- don't speak english... f1, f2, alt-q!
Elve Sorrow Amarr Shinra Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2006.10.27 11:52:00 - [29] Originally by: King Dave no the abbadon way outclasses the poc, as it can fit all this easily... apoc cant fit 8 mega pulse IIs and dual large armor rep and cap injector, abbadon basically can... stop whinign, i thought bob members knew more than this. Get lost you fcking idiot, the Abbadon sucks. It's great being Amarr, aint it?
Sonorra Baki	Posted - 2006.10.27 11:56:00 - [30] What I fail to comprehend though, is how the Minmatar BS gets the same PG and more CPU than our new lovely Don. This is out of order, and seems to me like Don has a big neon sign on its side saying: Ofizialy Sh4fted - lolzor.

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