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Switch projection bonus from Damnation to Absolution

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Serendipity Lost Repo Industries 932	Posted - 2015.04.09 13:07:42 - [31] - Quote Baali Tekitsu wrote: Rivr Luzade wrote: Baali Tekitsu wrote: A meta doesnt have a purpose, it reflects what strategies/tactics work and which dont. Not every ship has to fit into that MOTM/Y. There is no need to tailor ships to a current flavor and remove any possibility to change that flavor or, if the flavor change, require a roll-back of the previous changes favoring one meta that is now useless in the new meta. The key is variety and the Absolution's current application adds to that variety in a successful manner despite the trends. So what youre saying is "have a ship be worse just because". The Absolution is out of line with the other turret CS and in fact does not add as much to the variety as the other ones because it has a wasted bonus. It's not a wasted bonus. High cap use and the need to have a cap bonus built into the hull was a required balance move by CCP. If you start taking cap usage bonus away and giving back the range/ROF/damage bonus to laser platforms then they will again be OP. We'll go from ishtars online to lazors online. You want a range bonus on an abso, swap to the long range crystals and you have it. BTW, what are the optimal and fall off for pulse lasers fitted w/ the long range T2 ammo? I think you may have 'conflag only' on your brain which forces you to rationalise a need for a range bonus. Try the other crystals and you'll be fine. I'll contract you 500 slightly used T2 med crystals of both flavors for free. We've collected a ton of them over the years and they make hangar scrolling quite tedious. What is the range of the T2 long range pulse ammo on a standard abso? (calling EFT nerds for a save here... please) EDIT: also the numbers on the beam abso using long range T2 ammo would be nice. (put a Roger Rabbit ppppwwweeeze here)
Frostys Virpio The Mjolnir Bloc The Bloc 1676	Posted - 2015.04.09 13:14:05 - [32] - Quote Baali Tekitsu wrote: Rivr Luzade wrote: Baali Tekitsu wrote: A meta doesnt have a purpose, it reflects what strategies/tactics work and which dont. Not every ship has to fit into that MOTM/Y. There is no need to tailor ships to a current flavor and remove any possibility to change that flavor or, if the flavor change, require a roll-back of the previous changes favoring one meta that is now useless in the new meta. The key is variety and the Absolution's current application adds to that variety in a successful manner despite the trends. So what youre saying is "have a ship be worse just because". The Absolution is out of line with the other turret CS and in fact does not add as much to the variety as the other ones because it has a wasted bonus. Then you are willing to scrap the damage bonus for your opti since that too does not bring any variety? Or the ROF one? The cap one is actually bring more to the table as you can bring higher cap usage crystals to capitalise on it or use low cap usage crystals and end up with much longer cap life. The 3 bonus you want to keep are the 3 that actually bring nothing in variety.
Baali Tekitsu AQUILA INC Verge of Collapse 729	Posted - 2015.04.09 13:18:05 - [33] - Quote It is 22k optimal range on heavy pulse lasers. If you tell me that is competitive range on a Command ship then Im sorry youre ********. With short range ammo it is out of optimal before scram range. Double damage and range bonuses are also perfectly balanced on the other Command ships and they would be on the Absolution aswell. RATE LIKE SUBSCRIBE
Baali Tekitsu AQUILA INC Verge of Collapse 729	Posted - 2015.04.09 13:21:02 - [34] - Quote Frostys Virpio wrote: Baali Tekitsu wrote: Rivr Luzade wrote: Baali Tekitsu wrote: A meta doesnt have a purpose, it reflects what strategies/tactics work and which dont. Not every ship has to fit into that MOTM/Y. There is no need to tailor ships to a current flavor and remove any possibility to change that flavor or, if the flavor change, require a roll-back of the previous changes favoring one meta that is now useless in the new meta. The key is variety and the Absolution's current application adds to that variety in a successful manner despite the trends. So what youre saying is "have a ship be worse just because". The Absolution is out of line with the other turret CS and in fact does not add as much to the variety as the other ones because it has a wasted bonus. Then you are willing to scrap the damage bonus for your opti since that too does not bring any variety? Or the ROF one? The cap one is actually bring more to the table as you can bring higher cap usage crystals to capitalise on it or use low cap usage crystals and end up with much longer cap life. The 3 bonus you want to keep are the 3 that actually bring nothing in variety. Having a special bonus doesnt always add to variety, like in this case. It takes away from variety instead. RATE LIKE SUBSCRIBE
joecuster AQUILA INC Verge of Collapse 33	Posted - 2015.04.09 13:59:37 - [35] - Quote XAXAXAXAXA absolution hit out to 5k with scorch. Atron can kill absolution just by fear alone xaxaxa.
Serendipity Lost Repo Industries 935	Posted - 2015.04.09 14:09:39 - [36] - Quote Baali Tekitsu wrote: It is 22k optimal range on heavy pulse lasers. If you tell me that is competitive range on a Command ship then Im sorry youre ********. With short range ammo it is out of optimal before scram range. Double damage and range bonuses are also perfectly balanced on the other Command ships and they would be on the Absolution aswell. Is the 22km optimal pulse w/ long range ammo or beam w/ long range ammo? (sorry, at work so there is only so much I can do here)
Baali Tekitsu AQUILA INC Verge of Collapse 738	Posted - 2015.04.09 14:11:43 - [37] - Quote Serendipity Lost wrote: Baali Tekitsu wrote: It is 22k optimal range on heavy pulse lasers. If you tell me that is competitive range on a Command ship then Im sorry youre ********. With short range ammo it is out of optimal before scram range. Double damage and range bonuses are also perfectly balanced on the other Command ships and they would be on the Absolution aswell. Is the 22km optimal pulse w/ long range ammo or beam w/ long range ammo? (sorry, at work so there is only so much I can do here) With heavy pulse lasers. RATE LIKE SUBSCRIBE
Serendipity Lost Repo Industries 935	Posted - 2015.04.09 14:13:05 - [38] - Quote Baali Tekitsu wrote: Serendipity Lost wrote: Baali Tekitsu wrote: It is 22k optimal range on heavy pulse lasers. If you tell me that is competitive range on a Command ship then Im sorry youre ********. With short range ammo it is out of optimal before scram range. Double damage and range bonuses are also perfectly balanced on the other Command ships and they would be on the Absolution aswell. Is the 22km optimal pulse w/ long range ammo or beam w/ long range ammo? (sorry, at work so there is only so much I can do here) With heavy pulse lasers. What's the optimal w/ beam and long range ammo?
Baali Tekitsu AQUILA INC Verge of Collapse 740	Posted - 2015.04.09 15:28:29 - [39] - Quote 77k but Aurora is terrishit. RATE LIKE SUBSCRIBE
Serendipity Lost Repo Industries 936	Posted - 2015.04.09 15:57:03 - [40] - Quote Ah, I see now. You want blaster damage out of rail guns.... er I mean you want pulse laser damage at beam laser ranges. Couldn't you have just said T2 beam ammo sux and ask for a buff instead of trying to reconfigure a command ship??
Baali Tekitsu AQUILA INC Verge of Collapse 740	Posted - 2015.04.09 16:04:38 - [41] - Quote I need to correct myself: Heavy beam laser range with just long range ammo is 54k. Serendipity Lost wrote: Ah, I see now. You want blaster damage out of rail guns.... er I mean you want pulse laser damage at beam laser ranges. Couldn't you have just said T2 beam ammo sux and ask for a buff instead of trying to reconfigure a command ship?? I dont want either of both. In fact t2 ammo is very well balanced, might even be overpowered. But thats not the topic of this thread. I want the Absolution to be in line with the other turret command ships. Optimal range bonuses on Laser ships can be perfectly balanced as the Omen Navy issue and the Zealot prove. RATE LIKE SUBSCRIBE
God's Apples Genos Occidere Warlords of the Deep 590	Posted - 2015.04.09 16:06:51 - [42] - Quote @Serendipity Lost: Judging by your inability to comprehend a simple sentence I don't think you are qualified to make any suggestions on ship balancing. @That Kadeshi Guy with Cretinism (Rivr): First you say not having the cap bonus will make the abso garbage because you can't shoot your guns for more than 5 seconds which is clearly wrong. Then you go on to say that if the abso didn't waste a bonus on cap it would be super OP and everyone would use it over the ishtar. You're clearly a clueless moron and need to stop posting immediately. A range bonus on the abso would make it competitive in the current meta. Being about to hit out to 40km+ with pulses will make it an excellent nano cruiser killer in small gangs, and the range bonus with beams combined with the resist bonus and massive buffer will make it competitive for fleet warfare. "Hydra Reloaded are just jealous / butthurt on me / us because we can get tons of PVP action in empire while they aren't good enough to get that." - NightmareX
Stitch Kaneland Tribal Liberation Force Minmatar Republic 176	Posted - 2015.04.09 16:30:49 - [43] - Quote I agree with Baali. The abso is a CS. The cap bonus should be baked into the hull itself, not as a per level bonus. This would give the abso the option for an optimal bonus in its place but still keep good cap sustainability. This would keep it similar to amarr design philosophy (zealot), like the vagabond is to the slep. The abso is slow as hell, i dont see it kiting anytime soon. With optimal bonus it can force off long range cancer tackle (garm/orthrus etc) without having to diaf. On the flip side CS can fit MMJD. But, still doesnt change the issue. It would just be good at running away, which is no fun. Not to mention it has limited mids. Not sure if you can fit MWD+MJD and tackle. Edit: correct me if im wrong, but i thought CCP changed some other amarr ships with cap bonus to something useful, and just upped recharge rate on the hull. Cant remember the hull they did this to though..
Rivr Luzade Exclusion Cartel The Kadeshi 1317	Posted - 2015.04.09 16:31:02 - [44] - Quote God's Apples wrote: @That Kadeshi Guy with Cretinism (Rivr): First you say not having the cap bonus will make the abso garbage because you can't shoot your guns for more than 5 seconds which is clearly wrong. Then you go on to say that if the abso didn't waste a bonus on cap it would be super OP and everyone would use it over the ishtar. You're clearly a clueless moron and need to stop posting immediately I'd like to see where I said the Abso only lasts 5 seconds, or let's have it not so harsh for you: 1 minute. I also have not said that it would be OP, I merely said it would outperform the other CS even further in its role as a fleet CS. As far as I understand my wording, outperform does not necessarily mean overpowered. I do not know where you get your information, but you should review your sources. Do you have anything meaningful to add to the conversation apart from things that other people would petition as offenses to remove your troll post? @Baali Tekitsu To answer your question from page 2: Fleet fights of around 20-50 people. That's where I have seen the Absolution being used in the past with great success. Station Tab :: UI Improvement Collective
Baali Tekitsu AQUILA INC Verge of Collapse 742	Posted - 2015.04.09 16:45:51 - [45] - Quote Stitch Kaneland wrote: Edit: correct me if im wrong, but i thought CCP changed some other amarr ships with cap bonus to something useful, and just upped recharge rate on the hull. Cant remember the hull they did this to though.. It was the Sacrilege, they took the cap bonus and integrated it into all HAC hulls as part of the HAC balance pass. Rivr Luzade wrote: To answer your question from page 2: Fleet fights of around 20-50 people. That's where I have seen the Absolution being used in the past with great success. It would be much stronger in that role if it had the optimal range bonus and would it would open up different roles for it. RATE LIKE SUBSCRIBE
God's Apples Genos Occidere Warlords of the Deep 591	Posted - 2015.04.09 16:56:48 - [46] - Quote The point is not that it is an unusable ship. It's that its role is too narrow due to it's lack of versatility brought on by its bonuses. The only thing it is able to do is be in a medium sized gang with tons of dudes in guardians. An optimal bonus will mean that it will also serve roles in small gangs and large fleets. "Hydra Reloaded are just jealous / butthurt on me / us because we can get tons of PVP action in empire while they aren't good enough to get that." - NightmareX
Frostys Virpio The Mjolnir Bloc The Bloc 1679	Posted - 2015.04.09 20:28:06 - [47] - Quote God's Apples wrote: The point is not that it is an unusable ship. It's that its role is too narrow due to it's lack of versatility brought on by its bonuses. The only thing it is able to do is be in a medium sized gang with tons of dudes in guardians. An optimal bonus will mean that it will also serve roles in small gangs and large fleets. But isn't that role already covered by other ships?
Baali Tekitsu AQUILA INC Verge of Collapse 743	Posted - 2015.04.09 20:28:53 - [48] - Quote Frostys Virpio wrote: God's Apples wrote: The point is not that it is an unusable ship. It's that its role is too narrow due to it's lack of versatility brought on by its bonuses. The only thing it is able to do is be in a medium sized gang with tons of dudes in guardians. An optimal bonus will mean that it will also serve roles in small gangs and large fleets. But isn't that role already covered by other ships? No, I dont see many other laser Command Ships in game. RATE LIKE SUBSCRIBE
God's Apples Genos Occidere Warlords of the Deep 591	Posted - 2015.04.09 21:19:41 - [49] - Quote Frostys Virpio wrote: God's Apples wrote: The point is not that it is an unusable ship. It's that its role is too narrow due to it's lack of versatility brought on by its bonuses. The only thing it is able to do is be in a medium sized gang with tons of dudes in guardians. An optimal bonus will mean that it will also serve roles in small gangs and large fleets. But isn't that role already covered by other ships? No. If the abso was a niche ship that did medium sized gangs super well, better than almost any ship, but sucked for everything else then it would be fine. However, it doesn't excel at medium sized gangs. There are plenty of ships that are on the level of the abso for similar or less cost that can also do small and large scale stuff as well. At the moment there is really no reason to use this ship. It's not terrible, but it doesn't stand out in any area either. An optimal bonus won't make it broken OP in any regard, but it will open doors which the abso never had before. "Hydra Reloaded are just jealous / butthurt on me / us because we can get tons of PVP action in empire while they aren't good enough to get that." - NightmareX
Nevyn Auscent Broke Sauce 2024	Posted - 2015.04.09 23:34:15 - [50] - Quote Baali Tekitsu wrote: It was the Sacrilege, they took the cap bonus and integrated it into all HAC hulls as part of the HAC balance pass. That was a +Cap bonus, not a -cap usage to a specific item. So you can't simply add cap to the abso and remove the laser cap useage bonus. What actually needs to happen for that 'bonus' to be removed is what they did to Battleships, which was cut all large laser cap usage by about 20% and then remove nearly all the laser cap usage bonuses. Though it actually needed to be more in the 30% range hence why the Abaddon is still absolute trash, So if they reduce all Medium Laser cap use by 30% and then remove the bonus, Amarr mediums land in a much better place and can get useful bonuses replacing them in most cases. One or two cap usage bonuses can also remain to be ships that are really low cap use. (-30% then -50% actually only drops laser cap use to 35% of the current raw levels rather than 50%, so it's not actually a huge drop even then) Small lasers also need the treatment still as well. So that laser cap use bonuses are not required for the hull to function in anything other than a 30 second fight.
Lienzo Amanuensis 83	Posted - 2015.04.10 00:31:16 - [51] - Quote I'm in favor very generally of giving BCs projection bonuses, and cruisers application bonuses.
Cade Windstalker Donohue Enterprises Ad-Astra 353	Posted - 2015.04.10 06:43:39 - [52] - Quote Baali Tekitsu wrote: As it stands now the Absolution is the only Field command ship without a projection bonus which doesnt make much sense to me. On the other hand the Damnation is the only Fleet command ship with one (except the Eos, drone bonuses are weird anyway). I say swap the Energy turret cap use bonus from the Absolution (who needs it anyway with the cap buffer command ships have) and give it a Optimal bonus. The Damnation could get something else for its range bonus or keep it. Why do I propose this change? Compared to its other field CS counterparts the Absolution is really hard to find a gang role for except links, as Battlecruisers require damage projection a lot to compensate for their terrible speed. It also never made sense to me why the Absolution shouldnt have one. There's no such thing as a Fleet or Field command ship. They're all just Command Ships now with more or less the same functions, the projection bonuses are a leftover from their former roles and are based off of what's balanced for the hull and weapons, not a distinction between the hull types.
Baali Tekitsu AQUILA INC Verge of Collapse 744	Posted - 2015.04.10 10:23:54 - [53] - Quote You didnt even read the first few posts, did you? RATE LIKE SUBSCRIBE
Kagura Nikon Mentally Assured Destruction The Pursuit of Happiness 2051	Posted - 2015.04.10 10:37:30 - [54] - Quote Nevyn Auscent wrote: There are no longer any field or fleet command ships. They are all Command ships and just come with different weapon systems. that..... simple as that. "If brute force does not solve your problem.... then you are surely not using enough!" For the rest hire PoH \| Recruitment
Kagura Nikon Mentally Assured Destruction The Pursuit of Happiness 2051	Posted - 2015.04.10 10:38:28 - [55] - Quote God's Apples wrote: The point is not that it is an unusable ship. It's that its role is too narrow due to it's lack of versatility brought on by its bonuses. The only thing it is able to do is be in a medium sized gang with tons of dudes in guardians. An optimal bonus will mean that it will also serve roles in small gangs and large fleets. What the absolution needs is TONS more PG so it can fit beams and a tank. "If brute force does not solve your problem.... then you are surely not using enough!" For the rest hire PoH \| Recruitment
Baali Tekitsu AQUILA INC Verge of Collapse 744	Posted - 2015.04.10 18:35:15 - [56] - Quote This needs attention, so I bump it. RATE LIKE SUBSCRIBE
God's Apples Genos Occidere Warlords of the Deep 591	Posted - 2015.04.10 18:41:11 - [57] - Quote Kagura Nikon wrote: God's Apples wrote: The point is not that it is an unusable ship. It's that its role is too narrow due to it's lack of versatility brought on by its bonuses. The only thing it is able to do is be in a medium sized gang with tons of dudes in guardians. An optimal bonus will mean that it will also serve roles in small gangs and large fleets. What the absolution needs is TONS more PG so it can fit beams and a tank. You can easily fit beams and tank. You don't have the range on beams to be competitive in fleet warfare nor the range on pulses to be competitive in small gang warfare. "Hydra Reloaded are just jealous / butthurt on me / us because we can get tons of PVP action in empire while they aren't good enough to get that." - NightmareX
ShahFluffers Ice Fire Warriors Snuffed Out 7846	Posted - 2015.04.10 19:27:25 - [58] - Quote -1 to OP Not all ships (or ship types) need the same bonuses as their peers. In the case of the Absolution... it is already quite beastly and can project damage out quite far using a short range weapon system relative to other turret-based command ships. It doesn't need to be buffed. And if you want to shoot out at log range fit a long range turret and accept the fitting issues tradeoff. How did you start? The SP System IFW
Xequecal GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation 278	Posted - 2015.04.10 19:57:32 - [59] - Quote ShahFluffers wrote: -1 to OP Not all ships (or ship types) need the same bonuses as their peers. In the case of the Absolution... it is already quite beastly and can project damage out quite far using a short range weapon system relative to other turret-based command ships. It doesn't need to be buffed. And if you want to shoot out at log range fit a long range turret and accept the fitting issues tradeoff. Remind me again why I would want to fly a ship that, compared to the Ishtar, has less than half the range, half the DPS, a third of the tracking, doesn't choose damage type, needs to use cap and fittings to fire its guns, and moves at half the speed with over triple the sig radius with MWD on. Oh and it can't track or do ** to anything that gets in under 20km, even cruisers, while the Ishtar's heavy drones have no trouble blapping even close-orbit interceptors in about three seconds. More laser ships need double optimal bonuses. It would give the drone ** an actual counter, as you're certainly not going to get anywhere shooting kin/therm railguns at Ishtars.
Frostys Virpio The Mjolnir Bloc The Bloc 1682	Posted - 2015.04.10 20:24:41 - [60] - Quote Xequecal wrote: ShahFluffers wrote: -1 to OP Not all ships (or ship types) need the same bonuses as their peers. In the case of the Absolution... it is already quite beastly and can project damage out quite far using a short range weapon system relative to other turret-based command ships. It doesn't need to be buffed. And if you want to shoot out at log range fit a long range turret and accept the fitting issues tradeoff. Remind me again why I would want to fly a ship that, compared to the Ishtar, has less than half the range, half the DPS, a third of the tracking, doesn't choose damage type, needs to use cap and fittings to fire its guns, and moves at half the speed with over triple the sig radius with MWD on. Oh and it can't track or do ** to anything that gets in under 20km, even cruisers, while the Ishtar's heavy drones have no trouble blapping even close-orbit interceptors in about three seconds. More laser ships need double optimal bonuses. It would give the drone ** an actual counter, as you're certainly not going to get anywhere shooting kin/therm railguns at Ishtars. That only proves that the Ishtar is broken as hell, not that the absolution needs it's bonus changed. Why would I fly a X inseatd of an Ishtar apply to so many ships it not even funny anymore.

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