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Removing uniform resistances - Solves balance issues?

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Lord WarATron Amarr Out Siders Ascendant Frontier	Posted - 2006.10.27 08:44:00 - [1] Edited by: Lord WarATron on 27/10/2006 08:52:49 It seems to me that many of EvE's ballance issues stem from damages due to uniform resistances. For example, everybodys highist resist is Em, followed by thermal, then kinetic then explosive on armour. T2 ships have a build in hardners against their racial enemies damagetype on top usually. So insted of what we have now, how about the following as your bog standard resists? I will put in armour only, as I think shields should be pretty much the same as well. Amarr Resists EM: 10% Thermal: 25% Kinetic: 35% Explosive: 60% Minmatar Resists EM: 60% Thermal: 35% Kinetic: 25% Explosive: 10% Caldari Resists EM: 25% Thermal: 60% Kinetic: 10% Explosive: 35% Gallente Resists EM: 35% Thermal: 10% Kinetic: 60% Explosive: 25% Now before someone says "OMG11!!! N00b!2", let me explain Their is no roleplay reason to not have this, as NPC's do this already. Ok now thats the RP crowed silanced, the next issue is why? Firstly, each race is resistant to its enemies damagetype, but weak to its own damagetype. Ok thats all the EANM issues solved. The next issue is of weapons. There categorys of weapons is summerised by the following. Higher Range at cost of DPS Higher Alpha at cost of DPS Higher Tracking at cost of DPS (sig radius in the case of missiles) Higher DPS/Alpha at cost of Ammo/Cap So the weapons may need to be rebalaced a bit. Anyhow Discuss EDIT: Perhaps the opposite logic - You are most strong against the damagetype you do, but weak against your racial enemies? The list would be Amended as follows Minmatar Resists EM: 10% Thermal: 25% Kinetic: 35% Explosive: 60% Amarr Resists EM: 60% Thermal: 35% Kinetic: 25% Explosive: 10% Gallente Resists EM: 25% Thermal: 60% Kinetic: 10% Explosive: 35% Caldari Resists EM: 35% Thermal: 10% Kinetic: 60% Explosive: 25% --- Slot 10 Akemons Modified 'Noble'Zet 5000 implant +8% Armour FREE
starship enginer	Posted - 2006.10.27 09:09:00 - [2] Edited by: starship enginer on 27/10/2006 09:09:50 not a bad idea, but it will never happen, too big a change. amd if it did, expect a 18month+ time frame edit: you would also need to nerf amarr dps on all guns then! or why else do you get galante damage at 3x the effective range
Laboratus Gallente BGG Freelancer Alliance	Posted - 2006.10.27 09:12:00 - [3] Um, the High EM/Explo resists on armour/shields is due to a feature in armour/sihelds. The NPCs have already "mods" fitted in the ships and have optimized their resistances to suit some needs. Mind control and tin hats
Lord WarATron Amarr Out Siders Ascendant Frontier	Posted - 2006.10.27 11:22:00 - [4] Originally by: Laboratus Um, the High EM/Explo resists on armour/shields is due to a feature in armour/sihelds. The NPCs have already "mods" fitted in the ships and have optimized their resistances to suit some needs. Not really. Some CCP developer sets the default resistance to a figure, and thats it, otherwise This would have a minimum 60% em resist on armour :) --- Slot 10 Akemons Modified 'Noble'Zet 5000 implant +8% Armour FREE
Vathar Destructive Influence Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.10.27 12:29:00 - [5] Just one look and I say : EM damage then becomes stupidly overpowered. Put NPCs aside, who cares about them, they're predictable and you set up accordingly to beat them. you have different NPC having different weaknesses to keep all players happy :) Now about armor/shield, putting aside invul fields/EANS, on T1 resists, EM will ***shields, EXP will *armor, that's balanced. change this balance and you get, like you did, a kind of damage that's better than all others. And I'll stick to the roleplay reason, closely linked to balance to justify shields vulnerability to EW and armor's to EXP. Last, I honestly don't think we need this, those EVE balance issues are mostly pointless whining! ___________________________________________ Originally by:** Stamm Minmatar are kind of like going down a flight of stairs on an office chair firing
Patch86 Di-Tron Heavy Industries	Posted - 2006.10.27 13:34:00 - [6] Edited by: Patch86 on 27/10/2006 13:34:19 This is just a sneaky "boost lasers" thread, isn't it? Sly little fox you......... Anyhow, big no. I have reasons, but I can't be arsed to type them out; maybe after lunch -----------------------------------------------
Lord WarATron Amarr Out Siders Ascendant Frontier	Posted - 2006.10.27 13:51:00 - [7] Originally by: Patch86 Edited by: Patch86 on 27/10/2006 13:34:19 This is just a sneaky "boost lasers" thread, isn't it? Sly little fox you......... Anyhow, big no. I have reasons, but I can't be arsed to type them out; maybe after lunch Not a boost laser thing, as i have mentioned that weapons would need to be rebalanced baised on if they are focused on alpah/dps/range/cap+ammo usage. --- Slot 10 Akemons Modified 'Noble'Zet 5000 implant +8% Armour FREE
Vindicus Minmatar Sebiestor tribe	Posted - 2006.10.27 13:56:00 - [8] Interesting idea. I agree that it would help laser users but I think projectile and missile users would benefit the most as they can switch damage types at will.
Anjor Minmatar VersaTech Interstellar Ltd. SMASH Alliance	Posted - 2006.10.27 14:04:00 - [9] Edited by: Anjor on 27/10/2006 14:04:23 Honestly im starting to lean more towards placing a cap on T1 ship resistance increase. Basically cap it at 70% for all damage types and you remove a major issue with EANM's and the like causing 1 damage type to become extremely weak, since it continues to increase the weaker area's but the strong point is already maxed out. I also think it would have people move back towards the idea of active hardeners more as well. So lets recap 1. Place a 70% maximum resist bonus to T1 ships 2. Keep the current 92.5 maximum resist bonus on t2 ships to diversify them. 3. Balance weaponry to the listed adjustment. Mainly lasers and projectiles, and possibly hybrids if they need it after the previous 2 are adjusted. Many would probably complain about putting a cap like that, since it nerf's a lot of their uber tanked ships, however I am starting to feel that if you do not limit it you find issues like what lasers are having now. Most don't see it as the opposite, but I bet you if armor had 60 thermal resist and the like, you would see hybrid users all over the forums going nuts due to the EANM issue, but its not the EANM, its the overall amount of resist a ship can have. Too bad this idea will most likely die to a storm of fire and bombardment. __________________________________________________ It's great being amar...wait im Minmatar that plays amarr..Great im really ****ed... [i]Yes im Minmatar, but I'm a freed slave that has Amarr
Twilight Moon Minmatar Malicious Intentions	Posted - 2006.10.27 14:04:00 - [10] Do it! I've a fair few Faction Armour EM Hardeners here that I want to sell. That....and I actually like the idea. Having everyone the same just seemed a bit "iffy2 to me. ...on the other hand using a banana might be a viable alternative.
Kunming Amarr adeptus gattacus Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2006.10.27 14:20:00 - [11] Originally by: Lord WarATron Edited by: Lord WarATron on 27/10/2006 08:52:49 It seems to me that many of EvE's ballance issues stem from damages due to uniform resistances. For example, everybodys highist resist is Em, followed by thermal, then kinetic then explosive on armour. T2 ships have a build in hardners against their racial enemies damagetype on top usually. So insted of what we have now, how about the following as your bog standard resists? I will put in armour only, as I think shields should be pretty much the same as well. Amarr Resists EM: 10% Thermal: 25% Kinetic: 35% Explosive: 60% Minmatar Resists EM: 60% Thermal: 35% Kinetic: 25% Explosive: 10% Caldari Resists EM: 25% Thermal: 60% Kinetic: 10% Explosive: 35% Gallente Resists EM: 35% Thermal: 10% Kinetic: 60% Explosive: 25% Now before someone says "OMG11!!! N00b!2", let me explain Their is no roleplay reason to not have this, as NPC's do this already. Ok now thats the RP crowed silanced, the next issue is why? Firstly, each race is resistant to its enemies damagetype, but weak to its own damagetype. Ok thats all the EANM issues solved. The next issue is of weapons. There categorys of weapons is summerised by the following. Higher Range at cost of DPS Higher Alpha at cost of DPS Higher Tracking at cost of DPS (sig radius in the case of missiles) Higher DPS/Alpha at cost of Ammo/Cap So the weapons may need to be rebalaced a bit. Anyhow Discuss EDIT: Perhaps the opposite logic - You are most strong against the damagetype you do, but weak against your racial enemies? The list would be Amended as follows Minmatar Resists EM: 10% Thermal: 25% Kinetic: 35% Explosive: 60% Amarr Resists EM: 60% Thermal: 35% Kinetic: 25% Explosive: 10% Gallente Resists EM: 25% Thermal: 60% Kinetic: 10% Explosive: 35% Caldari Resists EM: 35% Thermal: 10% Kinetic: 60% Explosive: 25% This is one of the best ideas so far, it gives every DMG type the same importance and value. I dont know why any one would be against this unless they see one of their unfair advantages taken from them.. "OMG EM dmg is actually worth something, NERF NERF NERF!"
Fogy Caldari Euphoria Released Euphoria Unleashed	Posted - 2006.10.27 14:44:00 - [12] WoW is that way -----> Cheers! Fogy "From my rotting boddy flowers shall grow and I am in them, and that is eternity" New Direction New Area New Victims
Lisento Slaven Amarr The Drekla Consortium New Eve Order	Posted - 2006.10.27 14:48:00 - [13] All I know is doing this makes it extremely difficult to balance the races out in any way. The way you have it rigged, without hardeners EM becomes the uber damage for example against armor and shields (as you said it should be similar for shields). Maybe in the beginning of the game it would have been ok to start with this idea but we've come too far to start changing that sort of thing. All it does is place one race better vs another in most situations anyways. --- Lisento Slaven wants to be a Space Whaler in EVE. Put in space whales!
Lord WarATron Amarr Out Siders Ascendant Frontier	Posted - 2006.10.27 15:06:00 - [14] Originally by: Lisento Slaven All I know is doing this makes it extremely difficult to balance the races out in any way. The way you have it rigged, without hardeners EM becomes the uber damage for example against armor and shields (as you said it should be similar for shields). Maybe in the beginning of the game it would have been ok to start with this idea but we've come too far to start changing that sort of thing. All it does is place one race better vs another in most situations anyways. Do explain how? If armour and shield followed the above example, then any damagetype would be equally viable baised on the enemies you fight. As for weapons, I meantioned that they would probebly need rebalancing in the form of Damage being baised upong Alpha/Range/Cap+Ammo/DPS/Tracking etc. Mr Long Range High Alpha race (minmatar) would do less DPS than my Close range, low Alpha (Mr Gallente) But you may be right - I think this would have been great if it started when eve began, but it may be too late for now. --- Slot 10 Akemons Modified 'Noble'Zet 5000 implant +8% Armour FREE
Devoras2 Amarr Confederation of Red Moon Ascendant Frontier	Posted - 2006.10.27 15:11:00 - [15] I endorse this thread. Dev And they call me slow.... hey! Thats an insult!
Tunajuice	Posted - 2006.10.27 16:40:00 - [16] I think it should be like this.. but still rotate between shields and armor. So an armarr shield tanker is weak to X and strong to Y. An armarr armor tanker is weak to Y and strong to X. So not only do you need to change weapon based on their race.. if they "trick" you and tank the opposite of what you expect, you will be doing the "wrong" damage.
LUKEC Destructive Influence Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.10.27 16:43:00 - [17] My raven alt fully endorse these changes. My gallente / amarr alts are unimpressed. It would solve amarr suck on armor sindrome, but would not really remove the core of the problem. Ability to change dmg type(+ no cap, if anyone didn't notice) does outweight those 20% dps more.
Tasty Burger	Posted - 2006.10.27 16:44:00 - [18] No thanks. - It's great being Minmatar, ain't it?
Yakov Krasnov Caldari	Posted - 2006.10.27 18:32:00 - [19] I like it! Ships that don't have flexible damage types, such as most Amarr and rail/blaster ships will have to pick and choose their targets, but since they tend to be the raw damage kings these days, it'll probably even out. I'd prefer to have the same armor/shield resists for each race. /signed ----------------------------------------------- Mercenary minded - I'll fly whatever works best.
Lord WarATron Amarr Out Siders Ascendant Frontier	Posted - 2006.10.30 10:35:00 - [20] Originally by: Tasty Burger No thanks. Any reason as to why? --- Slot 10 Akemons Modified 'Noble'Zet 5000 implant +8% Armour FREE
Wild Rho Amarr Black Omega Security	Posted - 2006.10.30 10:46:00 - [21] Was thinking somthing along the lines myself. Very nice post. The only criticism I'd have would be it's very hard to predict what will happen balance wise. The change could be very minor or it could lead to some very unexpected results. I have the body of a supermodel. I just can't remember where I left it.
Hayabusa Fury Caldari Wu-Tang Financial Mordus Angels	Posted - 2006.10.30 10:58:00 - [22] I like the "paper-rock-scissors" approach. It would require a much tighter level of balancing than exists now. Frankly, I think it would be to hard if not immpossible to obtain. I would wait for this HP increase to settle down before messing with resists. But even then, I think it would be too hard to balance. ---------------- "I can not recall the number of times my superior intellect has got me knee deep in ****!" --Harely Hayes
Old Geeza The Retirement Home	Posted - 2006.10.30 11:10:00 - [23] For those saying one damage type would be better than another, all resistances have the same averages. EM: (10 + 60 + 25 + 35) / 4 = 32.5% EX: (60 + 10 + 35 + 25) / 4 = 32.5% KI: (35 + 25 + 10 + 60) / 4 = 32.5% TH: (25 + 35 + 60 + 10) / 4 = 32.5% I am fully, 100% behind this idea. It's exactly the kind of shake-up this game could do with and would make things far more interesting (and this is coming from a Minmatar pilot). _______________________________________ Sign the petition against jump queues!
Ms Freak Amarr NCN Corp	Posted - 2006.10.30 11:22:00 - [24] I think this is a very good idea and should have been done this way since day 1. @ OP: It might be worth expanding your post to show the new shield resistances, some people are obviously missing the fact that you are intending to apply the same changes to shields (hense, imo, the "OMG EM" posts above. Given that each race would be strong to it's natural enemy and weak to all others would make interesting fights. As mentioned above "Opposite tanking" would be an interesting concept.
Xelia	Posted - 2006.10.30 11:53:00 - [25] Great idea, would love to see this put in.
Doxs Roxs White Wolves Defence league The OSS	Posted - 2006.10.30 12:27:00 - [26] Sounds like a viable alternative to me, the reststs are still there but shuffled around a bit. And all types of hardeners and damage types would be equally useful since someone is bound to be vulnerable to them. Regards /Doxs After almost half a year, why is my face just a '!' ?
Nyphur Pillowsoft Interstellar Starbase Syndicate	Posted - 2006.10.30 12:55:00 - [27] This would go a long way to balancing laser's damage types and projectile's versatility. Currently, lasers can only deal damage to the two most tanked resistances in eve and only 2-3 types of T1 projectile ammo are even used. I support the idea. Eve-Tanking.com - For tanking spreadsheet and resources.
Bane Lord VentureCorp Imperial Republic Of the North	Posted - 2006.10.30 14:25:00 - [28] Hmm.. so simple, and elegant, yet... so powerful and complete.. like String Theory.. /me goes to changes pants.. Interesting.. I think this could very well be the balancing solution that people have been looking for, for years. At the end of the day, with the current resist system, its nigh implossible to achive lateral balance... but.. I'd also like to point out. the current resist system uses a 140 point 'raw' total, the one you proposed only uses 130.. Going with the current paradigm for those last 10 points, one would put them into the 'antithesis' resist of each race.. and you get something like, this: Amarr Resists EM: 20% Thermal: 25% Kinetic: 35% Explosive: 60% Minmatar Resists EM: 60% Thermal: 35% Kinetic: 25% Explosive: 20% Caldari Resists EM: 25% Thermal: 60% Kinetic: 20% Explosive: 35% Gallente Resists EM: 35% Thermal: 20% Kinetic: 60% Explosive: 25% ...Now.. to run some numbers using.. be back soon OMG! It's teh Bane!
Bane Lord VentureCorp Imperial Republic Of the North	Posted - 2006.10.30 14:42:00 - [29] cuz i'm a nerd... lets run some numbers... I'll do armor, cuz its cool.(and we havent figured out how to balance Shields)(on that note... you could just not add the 10 'missing points I talked about in my original post).. I win. anyway.. to the maths: I'm gonna assume the standard 3-mod armor resists.. 1 exp hard, 2x EANMII's with maxed skills.. 20% Base -> 1-(1-.2)(1-.55)(1-.25.83)(1-.25.54) --> 75.3% 25% Base -> 1-(1-.25)(1-.25)(1-.25.83) --> 53.2% 35% Base -> 1-(1-.35)(1-.25)(1-.25.83) --> 59.5% 60% Base -> 1-(1-.6)(1-.25)(1-.25*.83) --> 75.1% would be one's normalized resists... Now, time to compare.. oh gawd, ships-fittings-and ammo performace. OMG! It's teh Bane!
Lord WarATron Amarr Out Siders Ascendant Frontier	Posted - 2006.10.31 13:54:00 - [30] Some good ideas here, looks like I forgot about the extra 10% on each race :) But the more I look at weapons, they surprisingly look fairly balanced. E.G Minmatar with their High alpha, though they can hit multiple damagetypes, Gallente with their closerange blasters, Caldari with rails/missiles and Amarr with EM/Them only and use a lot of cap, but made up for by the damage. Ultimatly the weapons are Less damagetypes -> More DPS/Alpha Less Range -> More DPS/Alpha Less Ammo/cap -> Less DPS/Alpha More Alpha -> Less DPS I will look at some of the weapons, but it sure looks like this is something that should have happened in eve since day 1 --- Slot 10 Akemons Modified 'Noble'Zet 5000 implant +8% Armour FREE

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