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Integrity.... has it gone?

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Shyalud Chosen Path Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2006.10.27 15:23:00 - [1] Those that can't adapt become extinct. It's a horrible mistake not to learn your enemies tactics and use them against them. The tactic may stink (and it does) but if your enemy is useing it, and taking "the higher road" means you lose with honor means, well, you lose. As far as the WCS argument...it's stupid. If you don't want people to use WCS then don't use scramblers. It's simply not fair to provide an attack in game that there is no defence for. Learn how to counter a tactic, not how to *** about it. If it's a successfull tactic, no amount of public outcry or opinion is going to change it anyway. Originally by:** Jules The path of the righteous man is beset on all sides by the iniquities of the selfish and the tyranny of evil men.
Shyalud Chosen Path Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2006.10.28 00:17:00 - [2] I used to dislike Persh, and I felt good. I feel sooo dirty now :) Originally by: Jules The path of the righteous man is beset on all sides by the iniquities of the selfish and the tyranny of evil men.
Shyalud Chosen Path Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2006.10.28 02:41:00 - [3] Edited by: Shyalud on 28/10/2006 02:42:07 I share your opinion lorth, but eve has evolved into who get's the most kills. That's how we decide who won and who lost. If the guys that are pulling these tactics get the most kils v death, who wins? edit: meh spelling get's worse when I drink... Originally by: Jules The path of the righteous man is beset on all sides by the iniquities of the selfish and the tyranny of evil men.
Shyalud Chosen Path Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2006.10.28 03:13:00 - [4] Edited by: Shyalud on 28/10/2006 03:13:35 Originally by: zeKzn Originally by: pershphanie Edited by: pershphanie on 27/10/2006 22:40:55 Any tactics that could be used if eve=RL are legit. I believe this is the core concept in defining the difference between exploits/cheap tactics and fair play. Any tactics that involve the use of external forces (sever lag, logging off, etc) are both cheap and exploitive. Any tactics that involve the use of internal forces ONLY are all completly valid and are fair play. This is the basic minimum standard all corps/alliances should play by. I'm curious. Where do you stand on using alts to scout ahead, or do whatever, frankly, since technically you wouldn't really have that ability if EVE was RL? (The reason I ask is because a lot of people often put alt scouting forward as an alternative to logging out, while ignoring the fact that it is, technically, metagaming) that's not true, almost every rl military uses intel gathered from locals and such other "neutral" sources. Originally by: Jules The path of the righteous man is beset on all sides by the iniquities of the selfish and the tyranny of evil men.
Shyalud Chosen Path Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2006.10.28 03:17:00 - [5] Originally by: Lorth Originally by: Shyalud Edited by: Shyalud on 28/10/2006 02:42:07 I share your opinion lorth, but eve has evolved into who get's the most kills. That's how we decide who won and who lost. If the guys that are pulling these tactics get the most kils v death, who wins? edit: meh spelling get's worse when I drink... I can see why you think the eve is about who can get the most kills. But I personally dissagree with you. Warfare in eve is about moral, or at least that the strongly decideing factor in almost every conflict. Sure it is strongly related to kills vs deaths, but its not exactly the same. However your right in that these people are doing these tactics to win a game. Though so do the people using map hacks in BF2, or any other game. Doesn't make it right, or acceptable, though, and it doesn't make the game more fun. Ever play a game on God mode, I do once and a while, and it takes about 50 seconds before the lack of challange or risks, leaves me bored to tears. Its simular to playing eve using the discussed tactics. I do agree. However, when you have alliances doing everything they can to hold their space, and they end up losing it to people who use these tactics....what do you call them? Losers. We've seen it time and time again in eve. Originally by: Jules The path of the righteous man is beset on all sides by the iniquities of the selfish and the tyranny of evil men.
Shyalud Chosen Path Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2006.10.28 03:37:00 - [6] Originally by: zeKzn Originally by: Shyalud that's not true, almost every rl military uses intel gathered from locals and such other "neutral" sources. yes, but in eve that would equate to having friends scout for you, not having a second consciousness (effectively) to do it. In eve, I can be thirty different people. Which one is real? Originally by: Jules The path of the righteous man is beset on all sides by the iniquities of the selfish and the tyranny of evil men.
Shyalud Chosen Path Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2006.10.28 03:51:00 - [7] It means, why can't I, in keeping with the game, play more then one person? Originally by: Jules The path of the righteous man is beset on all sides by the iniquities of the selfish and the tyranny of evil men.
Shyalud Chosen Path Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2006.10.28 03:57:00 - [8] In rl, I wouldn't be able to build a battleship in 4 hours either. Originally by: Jules The path of the righteous man is beset on all sides by the iniquities of the selfish and the tyranny of evil men.
Shyalud Chosen Path Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2006.10.28 04:17:00 - [9] Originally by: Ben Derindar Originally by: Shamis Orzoz The bottom line is: If people CAN use these tactics they WILL use these tactics. Check and mate. /Ben That's exctly my point. The only way to deal with it is to use the same tactics against them. Really, honor has nothing to do with it. Because losing to someone using despicable tactics is still losing. And when you have something dear to lose, that sucks. simple fact is, this ain't rl. Just like there's no real way to punish corp thieves, or ore thieves, or spies, or any other type of datardly folks in eve, those that use questionable tactics in pvp can only be dealt with by turning their tactics on them. Despicable though they may be. I ask you, is it "honorable" to attack an unarmed ship with a very heavily armed ship? We often see roaming gank squads from one faction roll through anothers faction ganking their miners. Then we laugh about how stupid they were for getting ganked in a mining ship. But, in rl, would it be laughable to attack an ambulance with a tank? The "honor" behind pvp in this pame is a bit skewed, and these tactics are just an example of that. RL has nothing to do with it...so I've learned. Originally by: Jules The path of the righteous man is beset on all sides by the iniquities of the selfish and the tyranny of evil men.
Shyalud Chosen Path Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2006.10.28 15:27:00 - [10] Originally by: Darcuese Edited by: Darcuese on 28/10/2006 07:16:34 Originally by: Shyalud Edited by: Shyalud on 28/10/2006 04:47:39 Edited by: Shyalud on 28/10/2006 04:33:33 Originally by: Ben Derindar Originally by: Shamis Orzoz The bottom line is: If people CAN use these tactics they WILL use these tactics. Check and mate. /Ben That's exctly my point. The only way to deal with it is to use the same tactics against them. Really, honor has nothing to do with it. So sad to see ppl thinking about that IN GAME...cant imagine RL situations then Modules that intend to stop ship DO NOT STOP IT. Thats the point, dont talk about WINNING or losing and how to deal with it. Its not about if its lame or not tactic...or exploit. ITS about MODULES NOT DOING WHAT THEY SUPPOSE TO DO. Either CCP fix that or CHANGE MODULES to do something else instead. First, there is really no parallel to rl here. Second, what's sad? Seeing your enemy use crappy tactics and just sitting there saying "That's crappy" or doing something to the for doing it? The only upside of the loggin out and loggin traps is that I have seen em go wrong, and the "offenders" ended up getting wtfpwned for no other reason that they logged in at thr wrong time. Still, it works to thier advantage much more often then not. The honor has nothing to do with it part, means you can't fight dishonor with honor in eve. Originally by: Jules The path of the righteous man is beset on all sides by the iniquities of the selfish and the tyranny of evil men.

Shyalud Chosen Path Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2006.10.28 17:07:00 - [11] Edited by: Shyalud on 28/10/2006 17:11:27 Edited by: Shyalud on 28/10/2006 17:09:04 Loosing your ship due to a ctd is not what I am saying. What we are talking about is making it punishable to ctrl-q to keep from getting killed. What I ask is how would you know the difference between a logger and a ctd? Darceuse, you need to grow up. Read a little harder before you get offended. I agree with you, man. Logging off to save your ship is despicable. However, I feel loosing a fleet to people only becouse they used despicable tactics is dumb. To an extent, I feel that once your opponent has displayed that he is not bound by honor or fair play, the only way to fight him effectively is to do the same...to that opponent! I am not saying that once it's done to you then you now have liscense to do it forever. Relize that we are discussing and issue here, there is no reason for you to start insulting people. Please remember that the emergency warp was created to give people a chance to survive if they ctd in combat. The only way to counter the logger is to remove the emrgency warp. And it's spelled "capice" Originally by: Jules The path of the righteous man is beset on all sides by the iniquities of the selfish and the tyranny of evil men.
Shyalud Chosen Path Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2006.10.28 17:30:00 - [12] Edited by: Shyalud on 28/10/2006 17:30:56 Originally by: Darcuese I might be naive but i do beliave that personality in RL are very often similar with those in EVE. And this is lot different if someone decide to be a pirate, before someone else try to out this a s example or something Unfortunately, that is a little naive. The annonymity that online gaming provides also provides the opportunity to do these kinds of things without real reprocussion. Look at corp theft. The person that does it simply looks at like "If your stupid enough to give me access to the stuff, then it's your fault if it comes up missing." And, unfortunatly many in eve applaud that mentality. They don't see that they completely limit the ability to trust in game, which drastically limits the ability for any corp to succeed. Same goes for the loggers. They get pleasure in having more kills then deaths and they don't care how they get that ratio. Gankers are the same. I can't tell you how many times I've been killed when it was 5, 6 and even 14 to 1. I guess my point is: how do you enforce an honor system in an environement that provides anonymity? Originally by: Jules The path of the righteous man is beset on all sides by the iniquities of the selfish and the tyranny of evil men.
Shyalud Chosen Path Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2006.10.28 18:01:00 - [13] Originally by: Darcuese Edited by: Darcuese on 28/10/2006 17:45:25 Originally by: Shyalud Honor isnt something you enforce. Anyway...its about (for 100 times allready)should losing connection to game (no matter if its on purpose or accident) prevent modules to work as they suppose to do? Is this so complicated to answer? [email protected] probably read wrongly ...sry m8 Honor codes are societal values. Eve is a society. soceity enforces it's values. Originally by: Jules The path of the righteous man is beset on all sides by the iniquities of the selfish and the tyranny of evil men.
Shyalud Chosen Path Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2006.10.29 00:56:00 - [14] Limiting gang size and the number of people that can target a single entity would improve odds and thereby lessen the need to logoffski. Originally by: Jules The path of the righteous man is beset on all sides by the iniquities of the selfish and the tyranny of evil men.

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