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Exploration and Scan Probing in Kali

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Helison Gallente Times of Ancar THE R0NIN	Posted - 2006.10.28 11:54:00 - [1] I¦ve played a "bit" with scan probes and my results are the following: ) The scan strength of the "fast" long-range-probes (specially ferret and observator) is quite low. You would need several scans to even find a BS. Specially Observator is pretty useless in the moment. In most cases the "racial" quest probe is much better. It takes much longer for a single scan, but you would have to make several scans with the observator probe anyway. Only for even bigger distances the observator probe would be needed. ) The inaccuracy seems to be buggy in 26098. Only in the cases with a very low scan strength I get a scan deviation. Normally I am able to warp directly at 15km to the target. *) The ability to see your scan results on your solarsystem-view is great, most times this should be enough to seperate friendly ships from hostile ships.
Helison Gallente Times of Ancar THE R0NIN	Posted - 2006.11.05 03:19:00 - [2] Done a few more scans today, and I noticed following (bad) behaviours: ) Faction 3AU probes: still not functional ) If a scanned object has a signal strength above 1.0, the scan deviation is 0. This is making scanning far too powerful!!! ) Drones have a very high signal strength, they are easier to be found as most ships. Maybe this is because their sensorstrength is as low. ) It¦s not possible to find any container etc.
Helison Gallente Times of Ancar THE R0NIN	Posted - 2006.11.06 00:04:00 - [3] Originally by: Makhan It's been asked before but I'll ask again, are deadspace signatures supposted to be ultrarare? And where are they anyway? My experiences: 1) One deadspace signature in a 0.0 COSMOS-constellation, which lead me to a COSMOS-site with several agents. I first saw the site on directional scanner, than scanned for it and got it on the first try (but can¦t remember which probe). 2) Several other deadspace-signatures on directional scanner in 0.0 COSMOS constellations. No success with probing them. Used several probes, scanned many times. 3) One deadspace-signature in a normal 0.0 NPC-claimed system on directional scanner. No success with probing it. I havn¦t found any other deadspace-signature.
Helison Gallente Times of Ancar THE R0NIN	Posted - 2006.11.06 12:19:00 - [4] Edited by: Helison on 06/11/2006 12:19:38 Originally by: Sunaria Originally by: Helison Originally by: Makhan It's been asked before but I'll ask again, are deadspace signatures supposted to be ultrarare? And where are they anyway? My experiences: 1) One deadspace signature in a 0.0 COSMOS-constellation, which lead me to a COSMOS-site with several agents. I first saw the site on directional scanner, than scanned for it and got it on the first try (but can¦t remember which probe). 2) Several other deadspace-signatures on directional scanner in 0.0 COSMOS constellations. No success with probing them. Used several probes, scanned many times. 3) One deadspace-signature in a normal 0.0 NPC-claimed system on directional scanner. No success with probing it. I havn¦t found any other deadspace-signature. What I think happend is that he didn't had the deadspace-signatures enabled in overview, cause each COSMOS constelation allready has complexes in it that are visible to all. Fly to an empire COSMOSS const. if you think I'm wrong I havn¦t checked any empire COSMOS const, so no warpable deadspace-signatures. I was only flying through a few low-sec systems and many 0.0 systems (but not the new regions).
Helison Gallente Times of Ancar THE R0NIN	Posted - 2006.11.08 13:39:00 - [5] Originally by: Hoshi Someone good with math who wants to take a shot at making a function for signal strength/range? Currently too tired to even think how I should start and was too long ago I did stuff like this that I think I forgotten how to :) Anyway here is my test data: 0 2.12 3.08 5.27 7.39 8.92 11.19 14.19 15.65 17.92 20.99 23.19 23.99 26.26 28.46 30.73 32.26 33.73 36.73 38.99 40 1 0.997 0.994 0.983 0.966 0.951 0.925 0.881 0.858 0.818 0.759 0.714 0.698 0.650 0.603 0.554 0.522 0.491 0.430 0.386 0.350 First row is range from probe to ship in AU, max range of the probe is 40AU. Second row is how much Signal Strength is left at that range (1=100%, 0.35=35). My first thought is -x*log(x) but might be completely wrong. A quite good fit (but not perfect) for this would be 1-(x/1.3)^1.6, where x is actual range / max range. But I would need a few datapoints for above 40AU so I can check if the exponential function is behaving ok.
Helison Gallente Times of Ancar THE R0NIN	Posted - 2006.11.12 01:36:00 - [6] Edited by: Helison on 12/11/2006 01:36:56 Originally by: Dutarro [snip] Presumably if (Plock > 1), the lock is automatic. Now what about the race-specific probes looking for race-specific ships? For example let's say you look for a Megathron with a Gravimetric Sift probe ... Mega's gravimetric sensor strength is zero, so is it totally undetectable with that probe? The Gravimetric Sift probe has a gravimetric sensor strength of 1000 and a sensor strenght of 200 for the other three types (including magnetometric). As the megathron has only a magnetometric sensor strenght, this one will be compared. So according to your nomenclature Ftarget would be 19 (400 sig, 21 sensor) and Fprobe would be 2. For close targets Plock would be 38, but the Sift probes aren¦t intended for ship-scanning anyway. BTW: Has anybody already tested if deadspace signatures have a special racial sensor strenght? I noticed for sure, that the sensor strength of different deadspace signatures is not the same. One deadspace signature had a Ftarget of 1, a second a Ftarget of 0.5 and a third a Ftarget of 0.1, assuming that I didn¦t use the correct racial probe-type (otherwise Ftarget should be multiplied with 5). There were also other signatures, but I wasn¦t able to lock them once. Normally I used Comb probes for my scans.
Helison Gallente Times of Ancar THE R0NIN	Posted - 2006.11.14 16:31:00 - [7] Originally by: Bellus Solteuer Has anyone located a cosmic signature in space yet? Are these even in? People have tried to direct the thread that way a couple time to no avail...Also, does anyone have any clue what the formula might be for locating these hidden complexes? Are they racially based signatures conforming to the appropriate kind of sensor technology? Any clues? Like written a bit above: Deadspace signatures are in, but it¦s quite difficult to find them (specially with the bugged sift probes). There is a special type of signatures (don¦t know the exact naming, but it has the word "cosmic" in it), which are for finding COSMOS-agent sites. These signatures are pretty easy to be found. You can also try to find this one with the recon launcher. If the signatures are racially based is quite probable, but I havn¦t tested it till now.
Helison Gallente Times of Ancar THE R0NIN	Posted - 2006.11.15 12:41:00 - [8] Well, this whole discussion about "on which ship is it possible to use a sift probe?" is pointless. If you have the skill for using faction probes, which requires Astrometric 5, you should be possible to use the sift probe on any ship. Everything else would be a bug or a very bad design as the sift probe is the standard probe of all faction probes. If it is necessary to train skills to be able to use more faction probes, the sift probe should be the first probe, as it works on the shortest distance (and will be required for most scans). It has the highest scanning strength, but this is necessary to be able to pinpoint any exploration content.
Helison Gallente Times of Ancar THE R0NIN	Posted - 2006.11.15 13:04:00 - [9] Originally by: Langhorn I look at the sift probe as being the hardest 1 to use so should require more skills. Use the weakest probe first to get a general location of an object, then as you get closer to it, then you need to use more accurate probes to fine tune an objects location. This "need" is the problem: You really need sift probes to be able to get to an object, which is still difficult enough (used 10 sift probes on a signature without any result, but perhaps of the wrong faction).
Helison Gallente Times of Ancar THE R0NIN	Posted - 2006.11.17 11:17:00 - [10] Just a short notice: exploration is at the moment nearly impossible as the directional scanner doesn¦t show deadspace signatures. I managed to probe a earlier found complex, so they are still around.
Helison Gallente Times of Ancar THE R0NIN	Posted - 2006.11.17 19:36:00 - [11] I have now new data about probing of exploration sites. For my tests I used sift probes, which have a sensor strength of 2000 in the correct racial sensor type and 400 in the other three types. So a magnetometric sift probe has a sensor strenght of 2000 magnetometric and 400 ladar, radar and gravitometric. In the first test I scanned a small mining site in Fountain, which contains several Bistot-roids and spawns small rogue drones. In system view the site is called "Medium Bistot". I was sitting about 300km away from the deadspace signature, so we can ignore the range. The data: Magnetometric Sift Probe: 0.4 signal strength Ladar Sift Probe: 0.4 signal strength Radar Sift Probe: 0.4 signal strength Gravitometric Sift Probe: 2.0 signal strength So this exploration seems to have only a gravimetric sensor strength, which is normally typical for caldari ships. So the scan vulnerability (Target Signature Radius / Target Sensor Strength) of this deadspace signature is 0.1 (for gravimetric). As second object I scanned an "Cosmic Agent Site Signature" in Fountain space, which leads to the main agent site of the COSMOS-constellation in Fountain. Results: Magnetometric Sift Probe: 100 signal strength Ladar Sift Probe: 100 signal strength Radar Sift Probe: 100 signal strength Gravitometric Sift Probe: 100 signal strength I would interpret this data, that this special site has all 4 types of sensor strength. The scan vulnerability with this assumption would be 5. Using a snoop probe we should get a signal strength of 1.0 (will check this as soon as I can login again). I will continue these tests as soon as I can use the directional scanner again for finding new signatures.
Helison Gallente Times of Ancar THE R0NIN	Posted - 2006.11.18 01:01:00 - [12] Originally by: Amira Silvermist I think the COSMOS stuff has nothing to do with new exploration features and therefore have stats that don't seem to "fit". I also think that the new hidden exploration sites should not be visible on the directional scanner. Is that a bug or did I miss something? The new 0.0 COSMOS stuff is nearly only exploration stuff. The agent site itselfis special and I think it should be possible to scan it with "normal" scan probes (like the Snoop). Directional scanner + deadspace signatures: At the moment it¦s nearly impossible to find exploration sites if you don¦t see the signatures on directional scanner. The quest probes have a scan radius of 4 AU and the probability of finding a signature like the medium bistot site at 3 AU distance would be 14% with the correct probe type (gravimetric) and 3% with a wrong probe. So with a Gravimetric Quest Probe only one of 7 scans would give a result, with any other quest probe one of 33 scans. At the moment i can¦t tell exactly how far most deadspace signatures are away from planets, but the ones which I scanned for were between 2 and 4 AU. The cosmic agent site was about 4.5 AU from the next stellar object (either scannable with snoop probes from the planet or with faction probes, with using midwarp-BM¦s (was in this case quiet easy). But don¦t forget that midwarp-BM¦s are only a alternative, if you really know, where you want to probe for something.
Helison Gallente Times of Ancar THE R0NIN	Posted - 2006.11.18 21:28:00 - [13] Originally by: Harry Bucannon Edited by: Harry Bucannon on 18/11/2006 17:23:20 Just some info here, managed to scan down this with Grav racial probes ... Coral thingy + drones Is this mission related or some of the new content thats been added? Hehe, this screenshot looks VERY familiar to me. The exploration site "medium Bistot" looks like this one. So check if there are any roids between the corals!
Helison Gallente Times of Ancar THE R0NIN	Posted - 2006.11.20 10:29:00 - [14] Originally by: Zallazaer Ok, I've been scanning for quite some time now. I've used a ferret and finally found a deadspace signature on my scan. signal strength: 0.004648 distance 2.500 accuracy 7.854 Isn't it odd, that I've found one with a ferret? I thought the new racial probes should help finding them. But since the range of these probes is very limited, I'm not sure how they are of any use. Now, what do these numbers mean? And how should I home in on the signature? Nice one! Either you have scanned really a lot or you had a lot of luck. You have a signal strength of 0.004648, which means that only one of 215 scans with a ferret probe would be successful! The distance should be in AU, so the object is 2.5AU from your position. The accuracy should be in km, but I don¦t know exactly (can¦t login at the moment), specially I don¦t know on which position the dot is. I think you are 7854 km away from the signature. What you can do: a) If you can use racial probes: Warp to your scan position and drop a sift probe (with a normal scan probe launcher). You should get at least a scan probability of 0.9296 (=0.004648*400/2) or 4.648 with the correct faction probe. b) You can warp to the scan position and try to scan with snoop probes. About 1 of 22 scans should be successful. I think the scan deviation of the snoop probe is low enough, so you should be able to warp within the grid of the signature, which will spawn then. c) If CCP adds the deadspace signatures again to directional scanner, you can take a fast frig and fly into the direction of the deadspace signature. When are very close to the signature and nothing is shown on overview: make a BM, warpout and warp back to your BM. In the last patch, where deadspace signatures were on directional scanner, the deadspace site only spawned, when you warped to the grid and not if you only fly there (with microwarpdrive).
Helison Gallente Times of Ancar THE R0NIN	Posted - 2006.11.20 10:30:00 - [15] Originally by: Amira Silvermist Originally by: Zallazaer Now, what do these numbers mean? And how should I home in on the signature? You got very lucky it seems... Just use the new Quest probes and narrow it down till a sift probe makes you land on top of the signature. No need for the quest probe, just warp to the result and launch a sift probe.
Helison Gallente Times of Ancar THE R0NIN	Posted - 2006.11.22 16:09:00 - [16] BALANCING OF SCAN PROBES Used terms: vulnerability = Target Signature Radius / Target Sensor Strength Current problems ) Too low scan deviation ) Too low sensor strength of high-distance probes ) Drones are too easy to be found: A Domi has as an example a vulnerability of 19, the Ogre a vulnerability of 100. So if you want to find a Domi, which is running mission, you just have to scan for drones. ) Faction probes have a too low scan range (but would be too powerful for finding ships if the have a higher range) ) Too many sorts of faction probes, too many probes required for locating a deadspace signature. My proposals (not all are cumulative):* a) No warp to 0 for scan results! 15 km is really enough! b) Change the calculation of scan deviation: A signal strength of 1 should NOT be the same as being able to warp directly to the target. c) Increase sensor strength of ferret and observator probe, but also increase their deviation d) Other solution: Double the probability of finding a target without changing the signal strenght. e) Introduce a new high-range probe, which only gives a note of all (non-cloaked) ships in system, but without being able to warp to (already proposed by Joerd) f) Reduce vulnerability of drones! Perhaps you can increase the scan strength or introduce a scan vulnerability modifier. - With a scan vulnerability modifier you can also balance the vulnerability of capital ships better. g) Complete redesign of the faction probes: Reduce them to 4 probes, which can scan only deadspace signatures. Remove the faction-part. Increase their scan range to the old values. All 4 probes should be able to find a deadspace signature with the same probability, but with much different deviation.
Helison Gallente Times of Ancar THE R0NIN	Posted - 2006.11.23 01:10:00 - [17] Originally by: Donna Darko Originally by: Helison a) No warp to 0 for scan results! 15 km is really enough! ... e) Introduce a new high-range probe, which only gives a note of all (non-cloaked) ships in system, but without being able to warp to (already proposed by Joerd) f) Reduce vulnerability of drones! Perhaps you can increase the scan strength or introduce a scan vulnerability modifier. a) You only warp to 0 on certain items because that's what you set your default warp to distance to. You can also right-click results and warp to 15/100. It¦s clear that this is possible. But I think that probing is too easy, when you are able to warp at 0 to the target. Even 15km ist still too close in most scenarios. The reason why I don¦t like warp to 0 is that CCP intended to make it possible to probe cloaked ships. If you warp to 0 to a cloaked ship it would decloak immediatly. Quote: e) No, God, please no! You already recognized there are way too many probes now. Having another just adds to the number of items to have with you, and, as I said before, I'd rather not have to use an industrial to scan things. For ship scanning you don¦t need many probes. Normally snoop probes and a few long-range probes are enough. For deadspace scanning you need many more probes and they take much more space. At the moment it seems like you would need masses of various quest probes, several sift probes and perhaps some pursuit and comb probes. Quote: f) Being able to use 1 probe to clean the whole system of stray probes is economically viable, as t1 won't pay much anyway if you resell or refine. I would rather keep it that way. I agree that t2 probes could do with what you suggest, and currently-player-controlled drones should be even harder to find, to accomodate the Domi with drones scenario. I don¦t think it¦s possible for CCP to differentiate between active and abandoned drone. If it is, this would be great. Otherwise drones (except fighters) should not be more vulnerable than frigs.
Helison Gallente Times of Ancar THE R0NIN	Posted - 2006.11.23 03:56:00 - [18] Originally by: Hoshi Originally by: Tangerine ok i get the deep safe spot bit (tad cheesed now) but with my derelict hunting are u saying i gotta sit in a system for 20+ scans just to find out if their is anything in the system worth scavaging? What i mean is am im going to have to run multiple scans with the obs to get a complete list of ships in space and maybe still find nothing (lots of time wasted) whereas atm i can just search for each type and know if their is anything worth getting or nothing at all (i usually just scan for indys and cruisers)? Hope u get what i mean. That is correct, but each scan takes much less time now. With prefect skills and t2 rigs you can bring it down to 22 sec per scan. Keep the pace up and you can do 20 scans in less than 10 min. And you can also scan for drones and cans which should make it easier to find the spots as well. Have you any evidence, that it is possible to scan for cans?
Helison Gallente Times of Ancar THE R0NIN	Posted - 2006.11.24 12:17:00 - [19] Originally by: Venkul Mul I have found a lot of informations on ship scanning, almost none on cosmic signature. Someone has done extensive testing on those? In particular I need to know: 1) It is possible to get some results with the probes available at less than Astrosurvey 5? 2) What are the probes needed for Cosmic signature scanning? 3) The range from the nearest warpable point (belt, moon, planet, ecc.) of the signatures that have been found. 4) The strength of the signature. 5) Average number of try before finding a signature. I know it is a serious list, but as I am currently training astrosurvey 4 on sisi and just completed it on Tranquility I need to know what I need for the search for the profession complex to get daqtacores and data interfaces. ad 1) It is possible, but very unlikly. You would have to hundreds of scans to have any success. And this still won¦t bring you directly to the target (don¦t know the exact deviation of the snoop probe atm) ad 2) For Deadspace Signature scanning you need the factional probes like Radar Sift or Gravimetric Pursuit. According to my tests you need to use at least Quest and Sift Probes from each faction, if you really want to probe for stuff. And you have to take yourself several hours of time. Attention, there is another sort of signature, the Cosmic Agent Site Signature. This one is found in 0.0 COSMOS constellations and can be found with using "normal" probes like a snoop probe or ferret probe. ad 3) Till now i¦ve found and hunted down 4 deadspace signature and 2 Cosmic Agent Site Signatures. The deadspace signatures were all between 1.5 AU and 3 AU of the next stellar object. But if there would have been signatures outside of the 4 AU-radius, I would not have found them (because of the probes). One of the Cosmic Agent Site Signatures had a much bigger distance from the next planet, it was between 5 and 10 AU away from the next object. ad 4) Using the correct Sift probe I got signal strengths for the deadspace signatures of 4.0, 2.0 and 0.5 (the last one was a gas cloud). ad 5) Varies extremly. I used several hours and 40-50 probes to pinpoint 3 deadspace signatures in the last 2 days. The scans were above 100, but havn¦t counted. With better plans you should be able to reduce the numbers a bit, but it remains tiring. Specially if you want to check for gas clouds you will need many scans (or much luck).
Helison Gallente Times of Ancar THE R0NIN	Posted - 2006.11.24 12:42:00 - [20] @TomB (I hope you read this): A few questions regarding your locked posts: 1) Cloaked ships: Do you still intend to make it possible to probe for them? 2) Balance of probes, specially of signal strength, inaccuracy and "warp to 0": Please look into this once again (look at my post on the last page), will you do any changes? 3) Directional scanning: WHY are you making it nearly impossible to scan for hidden roid belts (roids of a regular belt, which are outside of the grid)? You are removing content with this nerf. WHY are you making it impossible to scan in complexes, if the Overseer has already respawned? This will make it easier for complex-campers and more difficult for others, who don¦t run the plex all the time. And if I can scan on directional scanner if there are PC ships in a belt, why shall it be impossible to check if there are NPC ships? 4) Please make a Devblog out of your post, so that all players can read it.

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