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Tech 2 ammo nerf.

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Breed Love Minmatar Stormriders	Posted - 2006.10.27 18:28:00 - [1] A lot of people are talking about it. Can't get on the test server because my account has been pwned, so could someone be nice enough to explain what the nerf (or just changes if they aren't that bad) is all about? ------ Originally by: Gazon In any case, the whole affair had one lasting effect: Awarding Stormriders the label of ridiculous drug addicts with a tendency towards utterly foolish actions.
Paigan Amarr Katsu Corporation	Posted - 2006.10.27 18:37:00 - [2] I only remeber that Spike L has 16/16 damage with 80% range bonus, still far too god compared to T1. Javelin torps are down to 12.5sec fligth time, 380 damage, 400m explosion radius. Although the nerf is right, they're hardly better than T1 now. -- This game is still in beta stage
Breed Love Minmatar Stormriders	Posted - 2006.10.27 18:43:00 - [3] What about close range ammo? ------ Originally by: Gazon In any case, the whole affair had one lasting effect: Awarding Stormriders the label of ridiculous drug addicts with a tendency towards utterly foolish actions.
infraX Caldari Corsets and Carebears Whips and Chains	Posted - 2006.10.27 18:46:00 - [4] Edited by: infraX on 27/10/2006 18:46:47 http://dl.eve-files.com/media/corp/sarmaul/ammo_2.png
Nizdaar Gallente GalacTECH Unlimited	Posted - 2006.10.27 18:56:00 - [5] I'm still struggling to figure out what the usefulness of Javelin S will be after Kali. Even in a destroyer, the range will be ~6km with 150mm Railgun II's. They've removed the shield penalty but left the speed penalty. Getting in range and staying in range has always been a problem with javelin. Going from a 12km range to this makes it very difficult to use. Antimatter Charge S does a bit less damage still after the change but at double the range of Javelin and no tracking/speed penalty it'll be the close range ammo of choice now, I suppose. Perhaps I'm missing something?
Breed Love Minmatar Stormriders	Posted - 2006.10.27 18:58:00 - [6] anyone has info on projectile ammo too? ------ Originally by: Gazon In any case, the whole affair had one lasting effect: Awarding Stormriders the label of ridiculous drug addicts with a tendency towards utterly foolish actions.
Grinkur	Posted - 2006.10.27 19:41:00 - [7] Edited by: Grinkur on 27/10/2006 19:42:21 I think T2 long range ammo is still a bit overpowered. It should at least have the same range than T1. Damage is higher at the expense or tracking, fair enough. But if you compare similar T1 and T2 fitted battleships with long range ammo the difference between T1 and T2 is 20km. Just consider this: Battleship "a" has 425mm railgun II with spike Battleship "b" has 425mm prototype gauss gun with iron BS "a" would already be doing 76% more damage at any distance (due to the higher dmg of spike compared to iron and the large railgun spec skill) But if they fight at BS a's optimal, BS "b" will also take a 33% penalty in dmg because it is fithting in falloff, so BS "a" is doing 163% MORE damage now. 163% more damage vs a tracking penalty that in practice is neglected by distance and the use of tracking computers looks a little overpowered.
Paigan Amarr Katsu Corporation	Posted - 2006.10.27 19:47:00 - [8] Originally by: Grinkur Edited by: Grinkur on 27/10/2006 19:42:21 I think T2 long range ammo is still a bit overpowered. It should at least have the same range than T1. Damage is higher at the expense or tracking, fair enough. But if you compare similar T1 and T2 fitted battleships with long range ammo the difference between T1 and T2 is 20km. Just consider this: Battleship "a" has 425mm railgun II with spike Battleship "b" has 425mm prototype gauss gun with iron BS "a" would already be doing 76% more damage at any distance (due to the higher dmg of spike compared to iron and the large railgun spec skill) But if they fight at BS a's optimal, BS "b" will also take a 33% penalty in dmg because it is fithting in falloff, so BS "a" is doing 163% MORE damage now. 163% more damage vs a tracking penalty that in practice is neglected by distance and the use of tracking computers looks a little overpowered. /signed 14/14 @60% range for Spike L Do away with extreme sniping, tux -- This game is still in beta stage
Ishina Fel Caldari Synergy. Imperial Republic Of the North	Posted - 2006.10.27 20:16:00 - [9] I recall Tuxford stating somewhere that he is still toying with T2 ammos in general. So there might easily be more changes incoming, and things that look "wrong" at the moment might get reworked.
Makaera Koshito Einherjar Rising Dusk and Dawn	Posted - 2006.10.27 21:38:00 - [10] From what I can understand, all sizes of Javelin Hybrid ammo have been boosted a bit in that the shield penalty has been removed. Hallejuah. I hope they don't change it back. It's about time railboats got some kind of something for shorter range combat.

murder one Gallente CRICE Corporation Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2006.10.27 21:42:00 - [11] They need to remove the speed penalty from Jav and keep the shield penalty :P Because I said so...
Makaera Koshito Einherjar Rising Dusk and Dawn	Posted - 2006.10.27 21:45:00 - [12] Originally by: murder one They need to remove the speed penalty from Jav and keep the shield penalty :P No. Negative. That would make Javelin ammo totally useless to a Caldari railboat. It would still work for Gallente ships, though, as it does now.
Scoundrelus Finite Horizon	Posted - 2006.10.27 22:02:00 - [13] Did they really have to nerf Conflag L? It's not like Amarr lasers were too powerful or something... =============================================== We are Watching You.
Graill	Posted - 2006.10.27 22:02:00 - [14] 3 second flight times with the new heavy assault missiles?
Glarion Garnier Solar Wind	Posted - 2006.10.28 00:00:00 - [15] I worry about null. Perhaps small tracking nerf on large ammo is decent. but not on medium or small ammos. I would not perefer it on Large either. For my opinion void and null were fine. Javelin + Spike bit off the mark. Spike at 80% seems kinda ok. 60 to 80 seems decent. then make tech 3 100%
enymphia Caldari Maelstrom Alliance	Posted - 2006.10.28 08:56:00 - [16] I can't understand why they nerf t2 ammo, t2 stuff are suppose to be totally pwnage, If you train for like large hybrids for 3 month in a row, it's ment to be much better than T1 stuff. //eny
Paigan Amarr Katsu Corporation	Posted - 2006.10.28 09:17:00 - [17] Originally by: enymphia I can't understand why they nerf t2 ammo, t2 stuff are suppose to be totally pwnage, If you train for like large hybrids for 3 month in a row, it's ment to be much better than T1 stuff. //eny They're NOT supposed to be total pwnage. Maybe you want them to be that, but thats all. Most T2 items are only some 20% better (f.ex. shield booster, and so on) at the cost of respectable drawback. T2 ammo, especially sniper ammo, is some 200% or more better, with no really hurting drawback. And it's the main cause for extrem long range sniping and for making T1 turrets almost completely useless in comparision. That can't be supposed to be by anyone reasonable. -- This game is still in beta stage
DeadDuck Amarr DAB RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2006.10.28 09:53:00 - [18] I know that now the gleam crystals have benn nerfed in damage and the worst in range... you now have a penalty of 75% vs the old 50%... a nerf of 50% !!!!! A bit drastic I might say
Jim McGregor Caldari	Posted - 2006.10.28 10:00:00 - [19] Edited by: Jim McGregor on 28/10/2006 10:01:27 Look... they are changing it to improve game balance. Dont you want a more balanced game? It really sounds like you dont care about that as long as you get your pwnage gunz. Since they changed ALL the ammo, they probably have compared them all to eachother and found some things that just wasnt fair. But if you want to discuss it, at least show some comparisons with the other ammos and argue for what you believe is wrong so people can discuss it. --- Eve Wiki \| Eve Tribune \| Eve Pirate
Xori Ruscuv 1911 ftw	Posted - 2006.10.28 11:11:00 - [20] Edited by: Xori Ruscuv on 28/10/2006 11:12:44 1. Did you really think they were going to nerf sniping THAT much? Range is a very important aspect of this game - just look at the Rokh ffs. They want to tone it down a bit, yeah. But obviously not to the extent that some people were expecting. 2. Frankly, I'm glad that some decent range and damage is still present on the long range ammunition. Basically because of missiles. Yeah yeah, save the lecture about "warping out before it hits". People have used missiles in fleet battles. This will bring things closer so that missiles will be more useful, but still provides guns comparable range. That is important, believe it or not. 3. Can anyone provide screenshots of tech 2 crystals and tech 2 projectiles? EDIT: OOPS! I poked around at the URL posted previously: Projectiles Crystals This IS my main! I just did a portrait swap...

Jim McGregor Caldari	Posted - 2006.10.28 11:20:00 - [21] Can someone with access to test please post medium Barrage, Tremor, Quake and Hail stats? --- Eve Wiki \| Eve Tribune \| Eve Pirate
Rezeik Aurelius	Posted - 2006.10.28 22:02:00 - [22] Can anyone come up with a practical use for the short range variations of T2 ammo now? Especially the artillery/hybrid versions; they needed the least nerfing to begin with. How is -75% range justified on artillery? You're range in that case isn't much better than a barrage-loaded autocannon with 1/6 of the tracking and other penalties to boot. You might as well use Fusion L. You'll get 40 damage instead of 56, but have 3x the range and no other penalties. Plus T1 guns are easier to fit and train.
Shabesa	Posted - 2006.10.28 22:42:00 - [23] Originally by: Rezeik Aurelius How is -75% range justified on artillery? You're range in that case isn't much better than a barrage-loaded autocannon with 1/6 of the tracking and other penalties to boot. By giving you one more option. Should still be able to hit bship with meds, no? It's not like you can't change ammo in space. And it's not like you HAVE to use everything in game. And few other not's
Makaera Koshito Einherjar Rising Dusk and Dawn	Posted - 2006.10.29 00:54:00 - [24] Originally by: Rezeik Aurelius Can anyone come up with a practical use for the short range variations of T2 ammo now? Especially the artillery/hybrid versions; they needed the least nerfing to begin with. Void Ammo, from my experience, is great for smaller ships shooting bigger ships and for bigger ships to shoot each other. The tracking is highly penalized, so you'll have a hard time hitting something smaller than you. I would imagine they nerfed it because of the insane damage that one got from using it. Null Ammo is one of those "one of your many options" ammo. I don't use it, but I know folks that use it on their Interceptors. It also makes a great ammo for the Caldari Railboats that were made into Blasterboats because of bonuses to optimal range. I would imagine they nerfed it because of the insane range that some ships were getting. I've heard something like 20-30km for some ships, though I've never seen it. Javelin Ammo looks like it was supposed to be the Caldari Railboat's answer to Void, but for rails. The Shield penalty (-14% per gun loaded) made it unusable for Caldari ships, but gave Gallente ships another option for their ships. This ammo actually needed a boost. I'm very happy that Caldari Railboats will finally be able to use this. Sure, there's a speed penalty, but Caldari ships already have a built-in speed penalty just because they are made from brick-like material. This one change will likely make the Harpy (especially because of the dual Optimal bonus, like the Eagle has) and Moa (and in some ways, the Ferox) reasonably competitive against their counterparts of other races. Removing this penalty, however, also helps Gallente pilots who like to use rails, but not much since shield don't matter a whole lot to them.
rgreat Gallente OEG	Posted - 2006.10.29 01:05:00 - [25] Edited by: rgreat on 29/10/2006 01:06:19 The only problem i have with 'new' tech 2 ammo is 50% tracking penalty on Null ammo. It will make it unusable for smaller ships, like interceptors who rely on high orbit speed, don't have enough optimal and falloff to hit someone with Void or AM ammo. Now their preferred Null ammo will be useless at these orbit speeds. I guess same problem will be with 'long range ammo' for Autocannons and Pulse lasers. Why nerf it, if it is not broken?
rgreat Gallente OEG	Posted - 2006.10.29 01:12:00 - [26] Edited by: rgreat on 29/10/2006 01:14:56 More on it... I think Null L ammo will be only used on Rokh, becouse with its 50% optimal bonus it still have nice chances to hit moving targets at 20km range... while staying on gate in gate camps... But in non static, moving combat every battleship with blasters will tend to load AM or Void ammo as approach speed is relatively high with MWD and you cant waste 15-25 seconds to reload your guns from Null. And you usually cant keep optimal range with null becouse it is outside web range. And you will be forced to reload as you will not be able to hit anything with Null in close.
Phrixus Zephyr Yesodic Nomads Corp Triumvirate.	Posted - 2006.10.29 01:31:00 - [27] I'd still like to know why Null is getting nerfed into the stoneage? Nerf'd to the point where its not worth using anymore. Instead of now where i sacrifice damage for range, i now sacrifice damage AND the ability to track ANYTHING for range. Whats the point?
Viktor Fyretracker Caldari Worms Corp	Posted - 2006.10.29 03:04:00 - [28] Originally by: Graill 3 second flight times with the new heavy assault missiles? HAMs are basicly cruiser class rockets or torpedos(take your choice in what you call em).
Coasterbrian Celestial Fleet Ascendant Frontier	Posted - 2006.10.29 05:23:00 - [29] Leave Null and Void alone FFS, they were not overpowered and will not be until CCP fixes Nos. ---------- I say what I mean, but I don't always mean what I say.
DeathHauler	Posted - 2006.10.29 06:28:00 - [30] if your going to nerf something at least do all the damn ammo ffs. BARRAGE still has no penalties which sucks



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