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X Seven
Da Short Buss Inc.
0
   |
Posted - 2015.04.12 16:35:30 -
[1] - Quote
I would like to know where we are on the margin trading scams discussions at this point in time. I see we all have been talking about this for years and I for one believe it is now time that the talk stops and action is taken. Will there be a perfect solution? No. However, the best solution to this problem will be any solution. Eve players will adapt. Everyone fears change but we will adapt. This problem is a game mechanic exploit. I for one want the CSM to fully look into this and come up once and for all a understanding of exploits vs scamming. Which one is worth having in the game? Next I would like to see a solution. No sitting on your thumbs and listen to all the complainers of OMG this will happen and this will happen. Always remember Eve Players will adapt. I really don't care if we remove Margin Trading altogether. I really don't care if you colorize the buy order as purple for margin buying. Do something that will kill this horrible exploit and make the markets integrity strong again. Something that should be a constant in the market is integrity. CCP runs the market we just play in it. |
admiral root
Red Galaxy
2689
|
Posted - 2015.04.12 19:23:21 -
[2] - Quote
How much did you get taken for?
No, your rights end in optimal+2*falloff | No-one hates you, none of us care enough for that.
A recent survey of applicants to CODE. corporations showed that 100% accepted James 315 as their saviour. You can't argue with facts.
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Kaarous Aldurald
Glorious Revolutionary Armed Forces of Highsec
CODE.
12607
|
Posted - 2015.04.12 19:35:13 -
[3] - Quote
Nope.
You do not get to remove one of the cornerstones of the game's economy just because you're too dumb to do your homework before getting greedy.
"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
One of ours, ten of theirs.
|
Black Pedro
Yammerschooner
844
|
Posted - 2015.04.12 19:48:21 -
[4] - Quote
X Seven wrote:I would like to know where we are on the margin trading scams discussions at this point in time. I see we all have been talking about this for years and I for one believe it is now time that the talk stops and action is taken. Will there be a perfect solution? No. However, the best solution to this problem will be any solution. Eve players will adapt. Everyone fears change but we will adapt. This problem is a game mechanic exploit. I for one want the CSM to fully look into this and come up once and for all a understanding of exploits vs scamming. Which one is worth having in the game? Next I would like to see a solution. No sitting on your thumbs and listen to all the complainers of OMG this will happen and this will happen. Always remember Eve Players will adapt. I really don't care if we remove Margin Trading altogether. I really don't care if you colorize the buy order as purple for margin buying. Do something that will kill this horrible exploit and make the markets integrity strong again. Something that should be a constant in the market is integrity. CCP runs the market we just play in it.
The margin trading scam is barely a scam. There is nothing there that couldn't be reproduced by someone just canceling or beating you to an order.
Margin trading is too important to the Eve economy to remove on a whim. I wouldn't be adverse to some solution that doesn't break the trading servers while leaving the functionallity of the skill intact, but really CSM, please spend your energies on more important things than this. |
X Seven
Da Short Buss Inc.
0
|
Posted - 2015.04.12 23:21:31 -
[5] - Quote
First off, I love this game. I have been playing since 06. I have seen many exploits and bugs and what not. I believe this is an important matter. To say it isn't would be foolish. I hold CCP to a higher standard than any other gaming company. They have created a great landscape for us. I see CCP as the overseer and or the Central Bank of the Eve Market. When the overseer doesn't believe its important to address an issue that is clearly and exploit but then allows everyone to do it . Why do we need to obey the other EULA terms. I mean this is drastic thinking but it sets a bad precedence. Does this exploit need to be addressed? Yes. If we have margin trading then I for one and many others would love to have a margin call. Freeze assets until the bill is paid. That is harsh but its a start to another lengthy discussion. There may be other pressing matters like what is coming this summer. The market hasn't seen any love for a while now. I just want a fair trade agreement in High Security space. Null Sec can be as ruthless as they want to be. In High Security space this should not stand. We have rules in High Security space. Take your scamming to Low Sec or Null.
Come let us reason together. |
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
16235
|
Posted - 2015.04.13 06:00:44 -
[6] - Quote
Let us reason together: margin trading is as vital a tool for trading as tackling is for PvP. 99%+ of margin trades are not scams, andthe scams are as easy to spot as a ggate camp on an outgate.
"It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his ISK/hr depends upon his not understanding it!"
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X Seven
Da Short Buss Inc.
0
|
Posted - 2015.04.13 06:37:00 -
[7] - Quote
I never said it was not vital. I agree it is vital part of the economy. I want to know when and where are we going to get a fix to this exploit. Where is the game mechanic that lets the little guy file suit for false promotion of pricing. Where are my space attorneys. LOL. I feel a statement needs to be made by CCP on this. Acknowledge that its an exploit and anyone caught doing it then gets the two strike rule. Why don't they do that? It would take too much man power. If that takes too much man power then this problem is bigger than we really understand. Do you not agree? I would like the CSM to address this issue seriously. Come up with a fix to this exploit. I will be shrugged off because I was scammed or whatever. I am looking out for the newbs. Many people have quit and never came back because of simple things like this. The market needs to be solid not ran by a bunch of people who are untrustworthy. CCP runs the market. I hope they do the right thing by coming up with a solution. Don't listen to the trillionaires listen to the little guys who made them trillionaires. Wars are fought over isk. lets hit the pocket books and see if they can fight a clean fight. I mean come on lets get our hands dirty and see what we can come up with. |
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
16235
|
Posted - 2015.04.13 06:52:43 -
[8] - Quote
It's not an exploit
"It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his ISK/hr depends upon his not understanding it!"
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Rawketsled
Generic Corp Name
163
|
Posted - 2015.04.13 06:59:36 -
[9] - Quote
If you feel the need to prevent the false promise of pricing on the market, I'd like to hear you thoughts on the false promise of see selling you a Navy Issue Megathron when I open a trade window with you.
As the Good Malcanis has said; it's not an exploit.
You believe the market to be full of promises - that's your mistake. |
Mag's
the united
19279
|
Posted - 2015.04.13 07:56:47 -
[10] - Quote
If you decide to invest in and make use of the market, you should be aware of the true price of items you may deal in.
This means gathering information on the item, before going ahead with any investment you may make.
If people run headlong into a deal and invest before gathering information that is readily available, then the fault falls squarely on themselves if things go wrong.
The funny thing with this scam, is it relies upon the greedy, the ones thinking they are going to have one over on another player. They see quick easy money to be made off someone else. The kicker is it's a game of PvP and they soon find they didn't do their homework, were out manoeuvred and ended up losing to the other players.
No order is guaranteed. None. So when playing the market the more information you gather, the less chance there is of losing ISK. But it's the market and there will always be a chance of losing ISK.
TL:DR. Stop being bad at PvP in the market and if you lose to other players, stop whining about it.
Oh and it's not an exploit. 
**Destination SkillQueue:- **
It's like assuming the lions will ignore you in the savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.
|
admiral root
Red Galaxy
2694
|
Posted - 2015.04.13 12:09:53 -
[11] - Quote
Was the question posed to the OP in the very first reply too difficult to understand? This might not be C&P but we still want details.
No, your rights end in optimal+2*falloff | No-one hates you, none of us care enough for that.
A recent survey of applicants to CODE. corporations showed that 100% accepted James 315 as their saviour. You can't argue with facts.
|
Lykouleon
Trust Doesn't Rust
Triumvirate.
1539
|
Posted - 2015.04.13 12:35:57 -
[12] - Quote
Malcanis wrote:It's not an exploit
Lykouleon > CYNO ME CLOSER so I can hit them with my sword
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X Seven
Da Short Buss Inc.
0
|
Posted - 2015.04.13 15:07:22 -
[13] - Quote
CCP Rise Quote:The Margin Trading Scam exploits the mechanic where a character with the Margin Trading skill can place buy orders and only place a portion of the ISK in escrow. If they then transfer all of their ISK away, the order will fail when someone tries to sell to it, essentially allowing them to make a fake buy order. Usually this means players make purchases that are grossly overpriced with the expectation that they can sell them to the margin trading-based buy order and make money, but instead are left with a pile of items that they will have to take a loss on.
Feedback Request - Margin trading and accurate market UI
Now is this not an exploit? Not calling an exploit not an exploit is ridiculous. Come on folks. Stop focusing on staying the same and brushing it aside. Lets come together and fix this once and for all. Bring some pain to those who want to put big buy orders and not want to pay. The risk should work both ways not in favor of the buyer. |
admiral root
Red Galaxy
2696
|
Posted - 2015.04.13 15:36:49 -
[14] - Quote
He said that it exploits the mechanic, much like an oil company exploits an oil deposit. He didn't say that margin trading scams *were* exploits.
No, your rights end in optimal+2*falloff | No-one hates you, none of us care enough for that.
A recent survey of applicants to CODE. corporations showed that 100% accepted James 315 as their saviour. You can't argue with facts.
|
ShahFluffers
Ice Fire Warriors
Snuffed Out
7854
|
Posted - 2015.04.13 15:48:47 -
[15] - Quote
It's no more an exploit than suicide ganking is.
Which means it isn't an exploit. It's just "creative use of the mechanics" to prey on the greedy and dumb.
Quote:Do something that will kill this horrible exploit and make the markets integrity strong again. Something that should be a constant in the market is integrity. CCP runs the market we just play in it.
Oh... myyyyy...
You do know that people routinely game the market system... right? By...
- buying up all available orders and then putting them back up 10% than before...
- or by cornering a market within a given area...
- or by blowing up any competition (you do know that some of the biggest funders of CODE and several other "well known" merc groups are other industrialists and traders, right?)...
- some combination of the above (see: Goonswarm's Ice Interdiction policy some years ago).
Market "integrity" in EVE is decided by how big your wallet is or by how much you can blow up.
Quote:CCP runs the market.
No... no they don't
They can set how many minerals are required for building something... how much LP and ISK you need for that "special thing"... and can decide drop rates...
But how much those minerals are worth is up to the players.
How much that LP (or item) is worth is up to players.
How much a player's time is worth to them is decided by the players.
And here's the best part... it's ALL more or less subjective.
There are miners out there who think that the minerals they earn are free. That's why so many miners just sell their rocks well below the average price.
There are industrialists who just want to unload their stock... and they don't care about taking a loss because the demand of their product is already quite low and won't recover due to the massive stockpiles that other players have (this is why Procurers often sell for less than their mineral value).
CCP don't "run the market." They just keep it online and let (more or less) pure libertarian economics do what it does best; make as much money as possible, using every tool at your disposal, be damned of the consequences to "lesser people."
How did you start?
The SP System
IFW
|
Black Pedro
Yammerschooner
847
|
Posted - 2015.04.13 15:51:36 -
[16] - Quote
X Seven wrote:CCP Rise Quote:The Margin Trading Scam exploits the mechanic where a character with the Margin Trading skill can place buy orders and only place a portion of the ISK in escrow. If they then transfer all of their ISK away, the order will fail when someone tries to sell to it, essentially allowing them to make a fake buy order. Usually this means players make purchases that are grossly overpriced with the expectation that they can sell them to the margin trading-based buy order and make money, but instead are left with a pile of items that they will have to take a loss on. Feedback Request - Margin trading and accurate market UINow is this not an exploit? Not calling an exploit not an exploit is ridiculous. Come on folks. Stop focusing on staying the same and brushing it aside. Lets come together and fix this once and for all. Bring some pain to those who want to put big buy orders and not want to pay. The risk should work both ways not in favor of the buyer.
You can exploit something that isn't an exploit. When I gank an AFK miner, I am exploiting the fact that that player is too lazy to pay attention to his ship, but my actions are not using an exploit as I am engaging in legal gameplay. If I evade CONCORD after that gank however, then I am using an exploit and will face sanction from CCP for exploiting a loophole in the game to escape the consequences intended by the developer. CCP Rise is using exploit in the first sense in that sentence.
CCP Rise has already looked at this and the lack of action means there is likely no easy solution to the issue. Removing the skill is a no-go, and any solution to link orders and current escrow amounts is not technically feasible due to the massive overhead it would require recalculating every margin order after every transaction from what I understand. What else do you propose CCP to do then? The scammer already loses the fees and increasing them for failed margin orders will really only hurt legitimate overextended traders as the scammer has plenty of profit margin to play with.
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X Seven
Da Short Buss Inc.
0
|
Posted - 2015.04.13 15:58:55 -
[17] - Quote
I really think no one cares that the eve client is broken. Lets not fix it. Colorize the margin trade orders then. Risk is what you want. Then risk should be given. |
Kaarous Aldurald
Glorious Revolutionary Armed Forces of Highsec
CODE.
12610
|
Posted - 2015.04.13 17:55:14 -
[18] - Quote
X Seven wrote:The issue here is that the client (via the market interface) is essentially lying to the player by showing an order which can't actually be filled.I really think no one cares that the eve client is broken. At least colorize the margin trade orders.
It doesn't lie to you.
Your greed does.
"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
One of ours, ten of theirs.
|
X Seven
Da Short Buss Inc.
0
|
Posted - 2015.04.13 18:11:54 -
[19] - Quote
Really? It doesn't lie. After a person from CCP says the client lies then everyone dismisses it as not a lie. Anyone else out there want to fix this or am I the only one. |
Black Pedro
Yammerschooner
847
|
Posted - 2015.04.13 18:56:17 -
[20] - Quote
X Seven wrote:Really? It doesn't lie. After a person from CCP says the client lies then everyone dismisses it as not a lie. Anyone else out there want to fix this or am I the only one.
Half the things in the client are a lie (see: Jita local).
We are all well aware of the creative use some players make of the margin trading skill to post misleading orders. CCP Rise has acknowledged it as well as you linked so CCP is also well aware of the phenomenon. Do you actually have a proposal to fix it? Or are you just here to complain about how you can sometimes lose at a PvP game when someone with a better understanding of the mechanics outsmarts you? |
ShahFluffers
Ice Fire Warriors
Snuffed Out
7857
|
Posted - 2015.04.13 19:24:29 -
[21] - Quote
Black Pedro wrote:X Seven wrote:Really? It doesn't lie. After a person from CCP says the client lies then everyone dismisses it as not a lie. Anyone else out there want to fix this or am I the only one. Half the things in the client are a lie (see: Jita local).
^ This.
Another example;
You see that ship you are flying? It does not actually exist according to the server. All the server sees is a sphere. Your ship literally has no front or back until you move.
So whatever "direction" your ship visually has is nothing more than an approxamation (sometimes not even that in the case of big ship as they will often warp "sideways")... so you cannot always rely on visual ques to know where you are heading.
As for seeing a margin scam... it's pretty easy. Just cross reference the prices on EVE Central... or look for historical trends on the ingame market window (no history is a red flag)
Most importantly, if it looks like you will be able to make ANY significantly high margin (more than 5%) by buying and selling in the same station... it is probably a scam.
How did you start?
The SP System
IFW
|
Mag's
the united
19284
|
Posted - 2015.04.14 02:36:45 -
[22] - Quote
X Seven wrote:The issue here is that the client (via the market interface) is essentially lying to the player by showing an order which can't actually be filled.I really think no one cares that the eve client is broken. At least colorize the margin trade orders. You can quote and misquote him if you wish, it still doesn't help your cause. Why you may ask? Well because once it was explained to him, he dropped it like a hot potato.
You see that market lies about every order, as none of them are ever guaranteed. None. So if any change is required, I would say it is to inform pilots of that fact.
But that is quite frankly, irrelevant. Because that is not your issue here. Your issue is that fact that you judged a single buy/sell order, as reflecting the true price of an item. If you had taken the time to gather more information of it's true value, you wouldn't then have paid over the odds for said item.
This is what happened:
A. There you were, looking at someone offering a good price for an item and it just so happened someone else was selling that item for less. You thought 'lol, someone's really dropped a clanger and I could make some quick easy money here, off the back of some poor clueless pilot'. You then bought said item for an inflated price and the buy order failed. Well if ever someone counted chickens before they were hatched, you did. As no order is ever guaranteed. So there you are, left with over priced goods. Which you can still sell at a loss, so that's a bonus. I guess.
This is what should have happened:
B. You saw someone offering a good price for an item and it just so happened someone was selling it for less. You should have then thought, 'Oh, I could make some ISK here, let me check to see if that buy and sell order reflects the true value of that item.'
After checking you would have said to yourself, 'Oh dear, some muppet is going to fall for that, if they don't do the proper checks.' Or even bought the item far cheaper elsewhere and still tried to sell it to the buy order. Just for giggles.
But you went with A and then topped it off with a forum whine, just to show everyone how bad you are at market PvP.
**Destination SkillQueue:- **
It's like assuming the lions will ignore you in the savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.
|
X Seven
Da Short Buss Inc.
0
|
Posted - 2015.04.14 03:04:12 -
[23] - Quote
I would love to understand why I am being attacked for trying to get something done about the margin trading scam or FRAUD as the case may be. It does not matter whatsoever. I really do not understand the way a faction of eve players value FRAUD. You can try to divide and conquer me all you want. I will not back down on this issue. When a buy order is up and has a price. The toon or corp. which placed that buy order should pay. They should pay by losing isk or loss of standings or loss of skill points to the margin trading skill. In RL there are severe penalties for margin trading fraud. In eve there is no risk for doing so whatsoever. No risk to cheat the market and the newbs. To me that is unacceptable. I really find it horrendous that we have people in this forum that want nothing to do with fixing a scamming/fraud problem. There is something so blatant in this thread that needs to be looked at. Oh this guy is butt hurt cause he got scammed. No, I didn't get scammed. It was pure and simple Fraud. Fraud is not acceptable in any known market except in EVE. That is a problem.
I am asking an begging any CSM member who reads this to please look at this problem. Look at it closely and understand that its the client that needs to be fixed. I don't want the margin trade skill gone. I believe it is good for the game. The eve client needs to represent truth. |
Black Pedro
Yammerschooner
851
|
Posted - 2015.04.14 06:35:37 -
[24] - Quote
X Seven wrote:I would love to understand why I am being attacked for trying to get something done about the margin trading scam or FRAUD as the case may be. Whether I was scammed or not it does not matter whatsoever. I really do not understand the way a faction of eve players value FRAUD. You can try to divide and conquer me all you want. I will not back down on this issue. When a buy order is up and has a price. The toon or corp. which placed that buy order should pay. They should pay by losing isk or loss of standings or loss of skill points to the margin trading skill. In RL there are severe penalties for margin trading fraud. In eve there is no risk for doing so whatsoever. No risk to cheat the market and the newbs. To me that is unacceptable. I really find it horrendous that we have people in this forum that want nothing to do with fixing a scamming/fraud problem. There is something so blatant in this thread that needs to be looked at. Oh this guy is butt hurt cause he got scammed. No, I didn't get scammed. It was pure and simple Fraud. Fraud is not acceptable in any known market except in EVE. That is a problem.
The lack of sympathy you find here is because the margin trading scam is not some exploit that allows another player to sneak into a new player's wallet and steal their ISK as you seem to want to portray it. The scam is basically just false advertising, similar to many other out there that attempt to trick a mark into making a poor trade decision by confusing, misleading or lying to a player about the value of a particular trade good. It is the player's greed that blinds them the risks of buying some module they have never heard of to sell for a quick profit, or at a price way above the historic value (which the client provides accurately). Tricking a player like this is not an exploit my friend, that is market PvP.
The problem with increasing penalties is that it hurts legitimate users of the margin trading skill. Whenever I trade on margin (which is most of the time as with all serious traders) I already am careful about straying too close to my limit as failed orders are penalized by loss of my broker fees. If you added some punitive penalty it would hurt more market traders than any scammers, but the real problem is what will you say if the margin trade scammer accepts the consequence of the punishment? If some penalty was put in place and you, are someone like you, fell for the scam six months down-the-line, you will come to the forums complaining that the penalties are not tough enough as you managed to still get scammed (just like all those people that lose an overloaded transport ship coming here to demand more "consequences" for suicide gankers). And the cycle would continue until the margin trading skill was unusable.
I have no problem with adding more information to the client to help traders identify potential problem orders. If 3 years from now CCP decides that they want to completely re-write the market trading system, I would have no objection to colour-coding orders that were made on margin, or that lacked enough ISK to cover if they can do that. For now though, everything CCP said has indicated this is not technically possible, and even if it was, it really should be a low priority for developer resources since there are plenty of other ways to trick people into thinking something is worth more than it is.
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ShahFluffers
Ice Fire Warriors
Snuffed Out
7858
|
Posted - 2015.04.14 07:04:34 -
[25] - Quote
X Seven wrote:I really do not understand the way a faction of eve players value FRAUD
Because "fraud" is in the eye of the beholder.
From my perspective... you are removing money from people with more greed and money than intelligence. And you gain intelligence through experience. And you gain experience by going through the situation it yourself.
And then you realize that the "horrible thing" that happened to you actually made you think, act, and behave smarter. Because there is always another such "horrible thing" around the corner.
(for disclosure: I fell for the Margin Scam early in my EVE life... I now look VERY closely at anything I buy and sell rather than "right-click, done")
X Seven wrote:In RL there are severe penalties for margin trading fraud.
This isn't real life.
The context of EVE is a dystopia.
It's not meant to "work right" or be "fair." It's meant to be an exercise in Darwinism. And the market is probably the closest you will ever get to a "pure" libertarian market model... which expresses that Darwinism mantra very well.
I mean seriously... the game is full of Megacorporations and empires stripmine "lush and verdant moons" to construct massive supercapital ships... sometimes with slave labor... to wipe out hundreds of thousands of ships in single engagements... each ship with crews numbering from the dozens to the thousands... all the while rival factions within each Megacorporation and empire send in pirates to shoot and assassinate at each other... or commandeer one of the aforementioned supercapitals and pile drive it into a station to destroy any chance of peace talks... while another faction simply goes out hunting for victims on the spacelanes and literally drain their bodies of blood for ritual sacrifices... and you, the mighty immortal... a being given power through implants that are not even designed for your physiology... a being that is designed to wage war, conflict, and amass wealth in the hopes you will work on behalf of your empire... slaughter all of them wholesale... before making a mistake and losing several thousand of your crew... whose families will never be notified or paid any compensation... because **** you, you have more important matters to look into... like buying a new battleship...
*breathes*
Quote:In eve there is no risk for doing so whatsoever. No risk to cheat the market and the newbs.
Oh... there is a risk. There is ALWAYS a risk.
However that risk is dependent on other players actually understanding what it is you are doing. And most people don't have a mind for economics... much less economics with few rules or restrictions.
But yeah... there ARE ways to throw a wrench into a market manipulator's plans. And there ARE ways you can screw over a margin scammer. You just have to understand the rules and toss any RL notions of "morality" or "ethics"...
... which, frankly, have no place in a game. All that matters are the "rules" and "spirit" of the game, in the context of the game itself.
Quote:Fraud is not acceptable in any known market except in EVE. That is a problem.
We'll agree to disagree here. Some of the best stories of EVE are where one person screws over a whole mass of people. Or a whole mass of people burn everything "just cause."
Examples:
The end of BOB
The end of Goonswarm v1
The EVE Intergalactic Bank scam
Socratic's downfall
The first Revenant kill
Goonswarm Ice Interdiction
Hulk-a-geddon
POS-a-geddon
Quote:The eve client needs to represent truth.
The game needs less "free intel" and give more opportunities for people to scam and cause more conflict. Because conflict is FUN!!
How did you start?
The SP System
IFW
|
Cade Windstalker
Donohue Enterprises
Ad-Astra
363
|
Posted - 2015.04.14 08:28:26 -
[26] - Quote
If Rule 1 of Eve is "Don't fly what you can't afford to lose" then Rule 2 is "If it looks too good to be true then it probably is."
This goes for bait ships, OP ships (they'll get nerfed sooner or later), and strangely lucrative looking market orders. |
admiral root
Red Galaxy
2701
|
Posted - 2015.04.14 08:34:56 -
[27] - Quote
X Seven wrote:Oh this guy is butt hurt cause he got scammed. No, I didn't get scammed. It was pure and simple Fraud.
Scams are fraud, so yes, you got scammed. That you keep ranting without sharing the juicy details of the story makes me think we're talking in excess of 10 billion.
Any chance of the scammer coming forward and telling this riveting tale?
No, your rights end in optimal+2*falloff | No-one hates you, none of us care enough for that.
A recent survey of applicants to CODE. corporations showed that 100% accepted James 315 as their saviour. You can't argue with facts.
|
Mag's
the united
19286
|
Posted - 2015.04.14 11:39:29 -
[28] - Quote
X Seven wrote:Fraud is not acceptable in any known market except in EVE. That is a problem. No, that is Eve.
You got greedy and didn't gather all the relevant information, before making an investment. You still have the goods, but paid way more than their true value. No one but you is to blame. Suck it up.
**Destination SkillQueue:- **
It's like assuming the lions will ignore you in the savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.
|
Blake Dallocort
The Scientific Method
1
|
Posted - 2015.04.14 15:46:55 -
[29] - Quote
I feel like your head would explode if you knew about fractional reserve banking irl...
The real world revolves around margin stuff just like Eve does. For traders it's nice not to have 30% of your capital tied to orders that might not fill for weeks.
If you do 30 seconds of research, you'll see that it's probably a scam of some sort.
Then you're mad about not having any repercussions, well there's nobody stopping you from hiring a merc to deal with the person. You could just as easily go after them yourself.
CCP won't do anything about this "broken" mechanic because there is nothing broken about it. |
X Seven
Da Short Buss Inc.
0
|
Posted - 2015.04.14 16:31:57 -
[30] - Quote
http://i.snag.gy/kdu77.jpg
This image represents what am dealing with. Not one of you have offered any real solutions to fix the mechanic. It's is either because
A. You don't like change
B. You are involved in scamming
C. It's because that's the way things run around here.
D. You genuinely hate anyone who wants correct a mechanic that is exploitable.
My solutions are
1. If a buy oder fails you should be able to see their toons name. Then You should be able to flag that person as bad trader, Should that person have more bad flags( amount determined by ccp) then their buy orders are colorized as yellow for all to see.
2. Add names to all buyers
3. Colorize the margin trading buy orders.
4. Make the margin traders have enough isk in their wallet to cover their highest buy order or it cancels all their buy orders.This would protect the small buy orders and at least ensure coverage.
This is what I have so far and I know ther are more out there.
let's chop down trees and pave the road. |
admiral root
Red Galaxy
2705
|
Posted - 2015.04.14 16:43:26 -
[31] - Quote
X Seven wrote: C. It's because that's the way things run around here and it works just fine.
I took the liberty of fixing your post.
No, your rights end in optimal+2*falloff | No-one hates you, none of us care enough for that.
A recent survey of applicants to CODE. corporations showed that 100% accepted James 315 as their saviour. You can't argue with facts.
|
Elenahina
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
434
|
Posted - 2015.04.14 16:49:10 -
[32] - Quote
Cade Windstalker wrote:If Rule 1 of Eve is "Don't fly what you can't afford to lose" then Rule 2 is "If it looks too good to be true then it probably is."
In Eve, if it looks too good to be true, not only is it definitely too good to be true, but you are about to take it up the keister if you don't move out with a quickness.
Eve is not a game of fair, with the single exception of everyone gets to play by the same set of rules. How I use those rules to screw you over, kill your ship, steal your loot, and deprive you of your economic opportunities. however, is completely open, and I in no way obliged to treat you with honesty, respect, or any sense of ethical consideration.
You are a victim, waiting for the axe to fall, until you come to terms with that.
(It took me three years to figure that out, and I still ocassionally get butt plowed when I leap before I look).
Agony Unleashed is Recruiting - Small Gang PvP in Null Sec
|
X Seven
Da Short Buss Inc.
0
|
Posted - 2015.04.14 17:05:51 -
[33] - Quote
And the continuation of climbing the ladder begins again.... |
admiral root
Red Galaxy
2705
|
Posted - 2015.04.14 17:23:11 -
[34] - Quote
X Seven wrote:And the continuation of climbing the ladder begins again....
No, you're just upset over some pixels.
No, your rights end in optimal+2*falloff | No-one hates you, none of us care enough for that.
A recent survey of applicants to CODE. corporations showed that 100% accepted James 315 as their saviour. You can't argue with facts.
|
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
16247
|
Posted - 2015.04.14 17:30:59 -
[35] - Quote
Hand up everyone in this thread who personally discussed this issue with CCP Rise face to face and can therefore claim equal understanding of his intent
Anyone...?
Bueller? Anyone?
"It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his ISK/hr depends upon his not understanding it!"
|
Mag's
the united
19294
|
Posted - 2015.04.15 00:58:59 -
[36] - Quote
X Seven wrote:http://i.snag.gy/kdu77.jpg
This image represents what am dealing with. Not one of you have offered any real solutions to fix the mechanic. It's is either because
A. You don't like change
B. You are involved in scamming
C. It's because that's the way things run around here.
D. You genuinely hate anyone who wants correct a mechanic that is exploitable. None of the above. The fix to your problem is already available. Like I said earlier, IF any change is required, it's to inform pilots that NO order is guaranteed.
What you are asking for, is a way that means those greedy lazy types, don't get caught out by their own actions, or should I say lack of. You're asking for the removal of consequences, when they try and screw over other market players and it backfires, due to their incompetence.
But judging by your lack of understanding of the current mechanics, I doubt that even a warning would have helped you. Then you would still be here, informing us of just how bad you are at the game. If there was ever a time a corp name was apt, this is it.
**Destination SkillQueue:- **
It's like assuming the lions will ignore you in the savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.
|
X Seven
Da Short Buss Inc.
0
|
Posted - 2015.04.15 02:33:54 -
[37] - Quote
Cmon keep attacking me. When there is smoke there is fire. |
Rawketsled
Generic Corp Name
167
|
Posted - 2015.04.15 09:45:41 -
[38] - Quote
The game doesn't need fixing. Player ignorance needs fixing. That's what CCP needs to fix.
Margin Trading wrote:Ability to make potentially risky investments work in your favor. Each level of skill reduces the percentage of ISK placed in market escrow when entering buy orders. Starting with an escrow percentage of 100% at Level 0 (untrained skill), each skill level cumulatively reduces the percentage by 25%. This will bring your total escrow down to approximately 24% at level 5.
This skill cannot be trained on Trial Accounts.
To be fair, the Margin Trading skill doesn't explain that margin trades will fail on empty wallets. CCP doesn't need to explain the consequence of it; merely the facts. Let players piece things together themselves.
|
X Seven
Da Short Buss Inc.
0
|
Posted - 2015.04.15 13:15:21 -
[39] - Quote
As it seems not many in this thread like what I am trying to do. The basic, mere basic of risk is one sided on this issue. When I say one sided I mean there is 0 risk for the buyer when done correctly. 0 risk for the buyer. His name isn't given out, he is protected. No one knows who he is. There can be no retaliation against him. He is more protected than anyone else in this game. Call me greedy all you want but the guys doing the buy orders with ultimate protection are just as greedy as anyone else in this game. The Buyer has 0 risk against them. The person many of you are defending has no risk in this game. We all talk a good game about risk but risk should go both ways. I want to know who is screwing me over when I get screwed over. If this is market pvp then I want it like ship pvp. I want to know who didn't take the order. Who took their money out of their wallet. If you lose your ship I guarantee you are looking at that combat log. Looking to see who killed you. I bet that combat log has the names of those who just shot you. Well the guys who sell to these buyers don't get that. Don't start with the sellers because that is a different toon that does that. We know the names of the toons we buy from. If a buy order is issued whether it goes through or not you should at least get the name of the toon. That would be risk on the buyers part. I would be happy if they had at least some risk in this game instead of being fully protected and anonymous. |
Black Pedro
Yammerschooner
861
|
Posted - 2015.04.15 13:36:15 -
[40] - Quote
X Seven wrote:As it seems not many in this thread like what I am trying to do. The basic, mere basic of risk is one sided on this issue. When I say one sided I mean there is 0 risk for the buyer when done correctly. 0 risk for the buyer. His name isn't given out, he is protected. No one knows who he is. There can be no retaliation against him. He is more protected than anyone else in this game. Call me greedy all you want but the guys doing the buy orders with ultimate protection are just as greedy as anyone else in this game. The Buyer has 0 risk against them. The person many of you are defending has no risk in this game. We all talk a good game about risk but risk should go both ways. I want to know who is screwing me over when I get screwed over. If this is market pvp then I want it like ship pvp. I want to know who didn't take the order. Who took their money out of their wallet. If you lose your ship I guarantee you are looking at that combat log. Looking to see who killed you. I bet that combat log has the names of those who just shot you. Well the guys who sell to these buyers don't get that. Don't start with the sellers because that is a different toon that does that. We know the names of the toons we buy from. If a buy order is issued whether it goes through or not you should at least get the name of the toon. That would be risk on the buyers part. I would be happy if they had at least some risk in this game instead of being fully protected and anonymous.
Friend, let the bitterness go. You were tricked by another player and lost some ISK. Learn from your mistake and move on.
Even if you knew the name of the character that listed that market order, in all likelihood there is nothing you could do to him or her. As a market-focused character they might never undock, and as the market is anonymous (until a purchase is made) there is no simple way you can know what orders or trades they are participating in.
Your best bet for revenge is to look for similar scam buy orders where you were scammed and use some of the methods discussed in these forums to mess with that scammer. But really, for your mental health, just chalk it up as a PvP loss and a learning experience and let it go. |
Rawketsled
Generic Corp Name
167
|
Posted - 2015.04.15 13:58:53 -
[41] - Quote
X Seven wrote:As it seems not many in this thread like what I am trying to do. The basic, mere basic of risk is one sided on this issue. When I say one sided I mean there is 0 risk for the buyer when done correctly. 0 risk for the buyer. His name isn't given out, he is protected. No one knows who he is. There can be no retaliation against him. He is more protected than anyone else in this game. Call me greedy all you want but the guys doing the buy orders with ultimate protection are just as greedy as anyone else in this game. The Buyer has 0 risk against them. The person many of you are defending has no risk in this game. We all talk a good game about risk but risk should go both ways. I want to know who is screwing me over when I get screwed over. If this is market pvp then I want it like ship pvp. I want to know who didn't take the order. Who took their money out of their wallet. If you lose your ship I guarantee you are looking at that combat log. Looking to see who killed you. I bet that combat log has the names of those who just shot you. Well the guys who sell to these buyers don't get that. Don't start with the sellers because that is a different toon that does that. We know the names of the toons we buy from. If a buy order is issued whether it goes through or not you should at least get the name of the toon. That would be risk on the buyers part. I would be happy if they had at least some risk in this game instead of being fully protected and anonymous.
But there is risk.
The scammer has just spent broker's fees... non-refundable broker's fees. These fees scale in proportion to how overpriced the items asked for are. They've committed an amount of money to initiate the scam. If nobody bites, that's money lost.
Further, if nobody bites, they may have an item nobody is going to buy off them. Margin Trading scams are often done on low-velocity items. These are items that are rarely sold because they're both; crap, and hard to acquire.
So, there is risk. It's just not the risk you happen to want. |
X Seven
Da Short Buss Inc.
0
|
Posted - 2015.04.15 16:31:41 -
[42] - Quote
Very little risk at all. Ooooooooo brokers fees. Holy crap i better not do this its toooo risky. |
Iain Cariaba
1246
|
Posted - 2015.04.15 20:37:06 -
[43] - Quote
So, when you get the letter/e-mail from the Nigerian prince about how he'll send you a pile of cash if you provide him your banking information, do you smile and send out your account number, or do you recognize that the deal is too good to be true and trash the letter? Same. Basic. Principle.
The market of EvE operates under the rule of caveat emptor. Your inability to properly research market orders is not a problem for CCP to address.
EvE is hard. It's harder if you're stupid.
I couldn't have said it better.
|
Rawketsled
Generic Corp Name
167
|
Posted - 2015.04.15 21:36:21 -
[44] - Quote
X Seven wrote:Very little risk at all. Ooooooooo brokers fees. Its too risky....
CCP has a song written for you. |
Kaarous Aldurald
Glorious Revolutionary Armed Forces of Highsec
CODE.
12627
|
Posted - 2015.04.15 22:54:29 -
[45] - Quote
X Seven wrote:Very little risk at all. Ooooooooo brokers fees. Its too risky....
You're not even trying to hide your tears anymore. You should honestly just have the ISD lock the thread for the sake of your dignity.
"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
One of ours, ten of theirs.
|
X Seven
Da Short Buss Inc.
0
|
Posted - 2015.04.16 03:10:19 -
[46] - Quote
I would love something that just justifies the risk side of the buyer besides some lame broker fee. Give names of the actual buyer when failed at least. If not that then any of the other adjustments I have suggested. I just want this looked at again by Ccp and the CSM. There is something wrong with this wether you all think there is not. |
ShahFluffers
Ice Fire Warriors
Snuffed Out
7874
|
Posted - 2015.04.16 03:28:57 -
[47] - Quote
X Seven wrote:There is something wrong with this wether you all think there is not.
Yeah... well... ya know... that's just like uhh... your opinion man.
The more I think about this... the more and more I see the Margin Scam as the market equivalent of a Suicide Gank.
You're best form protection is taking precautions (researching) and avoiding it altogether. Your best recourse is to use the mechanics against them.
Hint: As someone said before... buy the item cheap somewhere else and try to sell it to the suspected margin scam buy order. The larger the buy order amount is, the higher the market fees will be.
For example: On a 1 bil ISK buy order, the market fee can be anywhere from 1 to 5%. Without you buying the "baited item" from the scammer in the first place (because you bought it somewhere else for much cheaper), that is an automatic 10 to 50+ million ISK loss right there.
How did you start?
The SP System
IFW
|
Black Pedro
Yammerschooner
865
|
Posted - 2015.04.16 08:25:55 -
[48] - Quote
X Seven wrote:I would love something that just justifies the risk side of the buyer besides some lame broker fee. Give names of the actual buyer when failed at least. If not that then any of the other adjustments I have suggested. I just want this looked at again by Ccp and the CSM. There is something wrong with this wether you all think there is not. Maybe the fact that everyone in this thread, including a former CSM member who has discussed this issue with CCP, disagrees with you should make you question your basic premise that something is wrong. Scamming is part of Eve and the margin trading scam is just one variation of several scams that induce players to pay too much for an item.
Just move on and just be more careful in the future. Or better yet, set up your own margin trade scams and make back your ISK that way. |
X Seven
Da Short Buss Inc.
0
|
Posted - 2015.04.17 13:41:34 -
[49] - Quote
I understand scamming is a part of eve but when eve is a part of scamming is where I draw the line. Typing in the wrong price by a extra 0 is scamming. I will disagree with all of you on this as long as the client continues to protect the scammers and not look out for the ones who really make eve's market a viable place. |
Iain Cariaba
1271
|
Posted - 2015.04.17 17:36:27 -
[50] - Quote
X Seven wrote:I understand scamming is a part of eve but when eve is a part of scamming is where I draw the line. Typing in the wrong price by a extra 0 is scamming. I will disagree with all of you on this as long as the client continues to protect the scammers and not look out for the ones who really make eve's market a viable place.
Don't like scammers, don't use the market. Simple as that. Build and farm everything you use.
EvE is hard. It's harder if you're stupid.
I couldn't have said it better.
|
Kaarous Aldurald
Glorious Revolutionary Armed Forces of Highsec
CODE.
12654
|
Posted - 2015.04.17 23:51:43 -
[51] - Quote
X Seven wrote:I understand scamming is a part of eve but when eve is a part of scamming, this is where I draw the line.
Your only course of action then is to quit the game. Scamming is not just implied gameplay, but intended and approved.
"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
One of ours, ten of theirs.
|
Conflict Engaged
Southern Collective
The Southern Syndicate
13
|
Posted - 2015.04.18 10:02:31 -
[52] - Quote
X Seven wrote:I understand scamming is a part of eve but when eve is a part of scamming, this is where I draw the line. Typing in the wrong price by an extra 0 is scamming. I will disagree with all of you on this as long as the client continues to protect the scammers and not look out for the ones who really make eve's market a viable place.
There's a difference between scamming and overpaying. If you paid for something and you can't afford for something to go wrong, if the brokers fees are really that high, you shouldn't be buying/selling in that area.
There is no way of countering the margin trading scam without making the skill Margin Trading completely useless. It is a vital tool for trading, and if you were a trader you would understand. |
Lakotnik
TSOE Po1ice
TSOE Consortium
7
|
Posted - 2015.04.20 07:32:49 -
[53] - Quote
The thing is, if you make margin trading (which is a skill needing to be trained) illegal, you might as well ban all other sorts of scamming in eve and refund everyone that ever got scammed out of anything and ban the perpetrators.
Wait, I actually agree with this. Would be fun to see CFC membership numbers dropping to about 1/3 of what they are now for them impersonation/recruitment scams. |
Elenahina
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
459
|
Posted - 2015.04.20 11:19:29 -
[54] - Quote
Lakotnik wrote:The thing is, if you make margin trading (which is a skill needing to be trained) illegal, you might as well ban all other sorts of scamming in eve and refund everyone that ever got scammed out of anything and ban the perpetrators.
Wait, I actually agree with this. Would be fun to see CFC membership numbers dropping to about 1/3 of what they are now for them impersonation/recruitment scams.
Eve should have it's own corollary to Godwin's Law regarding the CFC/Goonswarm.
Agony Unleashed is Recruiting - Small Gang PvP in Null Sec
|
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
16264
|
Posted - 2015.04.20 20:04:26 -
[55] - Quote
Lakotnik wrote:The thing is, if you make margin trading (which is a skill needing to be trained) illegal, you might as well ban all other sorts of scamming in eve and refund everyone that ever got scammed out of anything and ban the perpetrators.
Wait, I actually agree with this. Would be fun to see CFC membership numbers dropping to about 1/3 of what they are now for them impersonation/recruitment scams.
Not to mention - and this cannot be overemphasised - that rather more than 99% of margin trades are "legitimate" orders.
Like the majority of scams, the margin trade scam only works on people who think they're the scammers in the deal. Which makes it problematic to understand why one should have any sympathy for them:
"I was going to beat this little kid up for a laugh but then it turned out he had 3 brothers bigger than me. Kids smaller than me shouldn't be allowed BY LAW to have big brothers!"
"It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his ISK/hr depends upon his not understanding it!"
|
Sylphy
TSOE Po1ice
TSOE Consortium
72
|
Posted - 2015.04.21 09:25:12 -
[56] - Quote
Malcanis wrote:Lakotnik wrote:The thing is, if you make margin trading (which is a skill needing to be trained) illegal, you might as well ban all other sorts of scamming in eve and refund everyone that ever got scammed out of anything and ban the perpetrators.
Wait, I actually agree with this. Would be fun to see CFC membership numbers dropping to about 1/3 of what they are now for them impersonation/recruitment scams. Not to mention - and this cannot be overemphasised - that rather more than 99% of margin trades are "legitimate" orders. Like the majority of scams, the margin trade scam only works on people who think they're the scammers in the deal. Which makes it problematic to understand why one should have any sympathy for them: "I was going to beat this little kid up for a laugh but then it turned out he had 3 brothers bigger than me. Kids smaller than me shouldn't be allowed BY LAW to have big brothers because it was totally unfair to expect me to fight 3 big guys also I have a mental disorder that cripples my self-awareness!"
Yeah, that's ussually how it is. That's what the skill is supposed to be for. So you can place huge amounts of buy orders without having to tie up all your capital. So even if something in Jita still isn't producing results, it doesn't tie up your cash to fulfil those orders in Dodixie.
The character does not represent the views/opinions of its Corporation or Alliance.
|
Miami Jones
Virtual Industry Inc.
0
|
Posted - 2015.04.27 05:03:27 -
[57] - Quote
X Seven wrote:I really don't care if we remove Margin Trading altogether.
Yeah well guess what? More players want this to stay in the game than those that don't. You want to affect trading profitability of thousands of players as long as CCP makes you happy. This suggestion has no merit.
/closethread |
corebloodbrothers
Volition Cult
The Volition Cult
1209
|
Posted - 2015.05.04 08:41:27 -
[58] - Quote
Before i made csm i made a post on margin trading, and ccp answered its a fe+íture, so i tried it af ee times myself and make nice isk. When i started runnign csm i Stopped, so i know how it works
There is several kinds of scams wit it. Once where there is only enough money for 25 % of the inflated or rare item. Those are the dumb onces, u can crash their order if u own the item, i even collect stuff they liek to crash them and make money of them.
The other one is where u first sell a minimum amoutn to yourself, so there is 0.0 isk in the escrow left and a market buy value of billions. It will always collaps. And leave the victim scammed.
Escrow however is also used alot in legit ways that drive the economy. So the trick woudl be too keep that and fix the other exploit.
It is doable since you coudl do a exception math. If the order in cant be forfilled with the minimum sale possible, then the order cant hold, as noone can sell anything too anythign on your buy list. It would leave honest owners options.
So basically:
Buyin: 10 items of 100 mill a piece, with a minimum of 10. So minimum sale is 1 bill, escrow needs to hold 1 bill or buy order falls
Buying 10 items of 100 mill a piece, minimum of 5 , ecrow meeds too hold 500 mill
Buying 10 items of 100 mill a piece, minimum of 1 ,escrow needs to be 100 mill, escrow skiill overwrites, 250 minimum
Bit technical, but that woudl fix it, however i havent as a csm found much enthousaism for it, but its on my list. I can show any ccp life sometime how to set up a escrow with 0 isk in and buy orders of billions, rigged too collaps
|
Stuyvenstein Pompetti
Wurmgat Wandelaars
Dark Knights of Eden
0
|
Posted - 2015.05.04 12:51:40 -
[59] - Quote
I never really knew about this until I read this post. I'm guessing this is associated with those "Market fail order" posts you'll see in market hubs like Amarr and Jita.
If that's the case I'd agree with the majority, if you're gonna be stupid and/or greedy, then you'd have to pay the price. Because this skill is great for traders, and people who are incapable of doing thorough research make it a great skill for scammers too :)
I'd say this skill should stay, and people should instead brush up on their scam detection abilities.... |
Mag's
the united
19375
|
Posted - 2015.05.04 14:50:24 -
[60] - Quote
corebloodbrothers wrote:Before i made csm i made a post on margin trading, and ccp answered its a fe+íture, so i tried it af ee times myself and make nice isk. When i started runnign csm i Stopped, so i know how it works
There is several kinds of scams wit it. Once where there is only enough money for 25 % of the inflated or rare item. Those are the dumb onces, u can crash their order if u own the item, i even collect stuff they liek to crash them and make money of them.
The other one is where u first sell a minimum amoutn to yourself, so there is 0.0 isk in the escrow left and a market buy value of billions. It will always collaps. And leave the victim scammed.
Escrow however is also used alot in legit ways that drive the economy. So the trick woudl be too keep that and fix the other exploit.
It is doable since you coudl do a exception math. If the order in cant be forfilled with the minimum sale possible, then the order cant hold, as noone can sell anything too anythign on your buy list. It would leave honest owners options.
So basically:
Buyin: 10 items of 100 mill a piece, with a minimum of 10. So minimum sale is 1 bill, escrow needs to hold 1 bill or buy order falls
Buying 10 items of 100 mill a piece, minimum of 5 , ecrow meeds too hold 500 mill
Buying 10 items of 100 mill a piece, minimum of 1 ,escrow needs to be 100 mill, escrow skiill overwrites, 250 minimum
Bit technical, but that woudl fix it, however i havent as a csm found much enthousaism for it, but its on my list. I can show any ccp life sometime how to set up a escrow with 0 isk in and buy orders of billions, rigged too collaps
I'm starting to regret my vote. 
That post is all well and good, but ignores the person being scammed and their initial intentions. How can you think of making a change such as yours, without looking to them first?
So ask yourself, what was their thought process before hand. What did they expect to gain from the order, who did they think would be better off and less well off after it completed? Let's face it they were simply over charged for something. They paid well over the normal market price, so ask yourself why.
I'm all for giving players information to help them, but I'm dead against changing mechanics to help the lazy. Because that's what we have here. Those so set on ripping others off, that they fail to gather more info than the buy and sell order price. Given the fact the information that helps them avoid this expensive mistake, is readily at hand.
**Destination SkillQueue:- **
It's like assuming the lions will ignore you in the savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.
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