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Butter Dog
The Dead Miners Society
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Posted - 2006.10.28 12:19:00 -
[1]
Edited by: Butter Dog on 28/10/2006 12:20:24
Now that HP is being increased by 50% on ships and plates/extenders, it will surely make sense for armor reps/shield boosters to enjoy the same benefit.
Otherwise, we have a situation where no-one in their right mind would fit a repper over a plate/extender. For example, a 1600mm plate gives a 6300-ish HP increase with decent skills. An LAR II would take over 90 seconds to catch up to this, plus it uses loads of cap.
What do people think about this? Should reps/boosters be brought in-line with the HP increases, and if not, why not?
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keepiru
Supernova Security Systems
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Posted - 2006.10.28 12:25:00 -
[2]
No, because it creates unbreakable tanks. Its already going to be hard killing people 1-on-1.
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Please fix BC Sig/Agility! |
Butter Dog
The Dead Miners Society
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Posted - 2006.10.28 12:39:00 -
[3]
 Originally by: keepiru
No, because it creates unbreakable tanks. Its already going to be hard killing people 1-on-1.
No tank is unbreakable, due to cap.
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keepiru
Supernova Security Systems
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Posted - 2006.10.28 12:45:00 -
[4]
You're joking right? If you make reppers/boosters do 1.5 the hp/sec they do now I bet I can make a bunch of PVP BS/BC/HAC setups that can tank the dps of any other single ship of the same class indefinitely while killing it.
Its not hard, there are a bunch of ships that only die against same class because they run out of cap, when you have to run your reps/boosters only 2/3 as often....
Makes for extremely boring solo/small gang fights, boosts mission-running which would be a catastrophe for the economy, and is just overall a Bad IdeaÖ
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Please fix BC Sig/Agility! |
Rutoo
Gallente
Interstellar eXodus
R0ADKILL
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Posted - 2006.10.28 12:47:00 -
[5]
Originally by: Butter Dog
Originally by: keepiru
No, because it creates unbreakable tanks. Its already going to be hard killing people 1-on-1.
No tank is unbreakable, due to cap.
Yes your right the last allience toury was a perfect example of how no tank is unbreakable, Especally the final...
In other words repair HP should not be increased at all. because if you as said above 1vs1 would mean unbreakable tanks, and 10 VS 1 would be unbreakable tanks also.
So No, the answer is pure No.
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Nyphur
Pillowsoft
Interstellar Starbase Syndicate
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Posted - 2006.10.28 12:49:00 -
[6]
Hmm. You have a point but I would rather see this taken one step at a time. The idea is that battles should take longer because in the old days the gangs were smaller and damage was less. The extra HP is just a rebalancing to today's gang sizes to avoid the instapop situations we have in larger-scale conflicts. This makes logistics more plausible in fleet combats and it's important to see if logistics are adopted by gangs before doing something more drastic like upping repair rate.
The best you could do now is probably use the new rigs to increase your resistances, improving the efficiency of your repairer by about 23% if you can fit three 25% resistance rigs to your ship. There's also rigs to improve repair cycle time, reducing it by 10% (cumulative with implants and skills), which will use more capacitor but up your repair rate a further 10%. Isn't there also a rig to lower repairer cap use?
Not to mention gang mods that all the bigger gangs use these days. If you take a look at the larger gangs, a 50% increase in repair rate WOULD make feasibly unbreakable tanks.
Eve-Tanking.com - For tanking spreadsheet and resources. |
Merdaneth
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Posted - 2006.10.28 12:49:00 -
[7]
Originally by: Butter Dog
No tank is unbreakable, due to cap.
It creates tanks that are unbreakable to guns. Breaking someone's tank should not neccesitate nosses.
People now have a *choice* between different setups as far as tanking goes.
A. Sustained repper/booster tank but limited ability to absord a 'peak flow' of damage.
B. Purely passive tank, very good at absorbing 'peak flow' but not holding up to sustained fire.
C. Hybrid of both.
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AKULA UrQuan
Caldari
STK Scientific
Ascendant Frontier
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Posted - 2006.10.28 12:54:00 -
[8]
No. dual rep Cap boosting setups are already good enough. Hell my old missile ferox setup moved over to a drake can run a T2 med booster forever, and It also has a boost amp behind it. Cranking up that thing's rep ammount would be way over the top.
Originally by: Wrangler
Win ME is more a some sort of virus than a OS..
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Butter Dog
The Dead Miners Society
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Posted - 2006.10.28 13:00:00 -
[9]
Edited by: Butter Dog on 28/10/2006 13:03:18
Originally by: Rutoo
Originally by: Butter Dog
Originally by: keepiru
No, because it creates unbreakable tanks. Its already going to be hard killing people 1-on-1.
No tank is unbreakable, due to cap.
Yes your right the last allience toury was a perfect example of how no tank is unbreakable, Especally the final...
Well if you have 5 ships with nothing but Cap Recharger II's, Cap transfers, Cap Relays, and Rep Drones... all supporting each other, then I guess you are right
But we all know that isnt how the game works.
The point I was making this: The massive HP increases to plates/extenders already mean tanks will be insane without reppers. You will actually COMPROMISE your tank by fitting a repper... is this how it should be?
PS - also slave sets will make some plated setups virtually invincible in any 1v1 or small gang situation
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Nyphur
Pillowsoft
Interstellar Starbase Syndicate
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Posted - 2006.10.28 15:26:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Butter Dog
PS - also slave sets will make some plated setups virtually invincible in any 1v1 or small gang situation
Your enemy's HP will also have been increased. The duration of the combat will increase but the result will still be the same. Plates DO become more potent if they get the increase too though. You have to remember that invinceable means they can tank it indefinitely or long enough to kill their enemy, that's not the case with having MORE armour.
Eve-Tanking.com - For tanking spreadsheet and resources. |
Slash Harnet
Minmatar
Industrial Services INC
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Posted - 2006.10.28 15:37:00 -
[11]
They should decrease the cycle time so cap dries out even faster.
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Jacob Holland
Gallente
FIRMA
Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate
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Posted - 2006.10.28 16:13:00 -
[12]
HP have increased, but the thing which would require reppers and boosters getting a boost to their repair amount is an increase in average DPS. Reps and boosters are time dependent while plates aren't (extenders can be and extenders on a T2 ship is going to be a real pain potentially) but with reppers and boosters you have the situation of DPS inflicted vs DPS repaired...
Originally by: cordy
Respect to IAC .Your one of the few people who truly deserve to own and live in the space you are in.
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LaCoHa
Caldari Deep Space Navy
Caldari Deep Space Industral
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Posted - 2006.10.28 16:16:00 -
[13]
They need to take out all rpr/booster bonuses, and make them resist bonuses instead.
that is the best, and only way to bring them inline in light of the coming HP boosts.
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"I just slaughtered 28 people in that game of Battlefield 2 and never died. Man my e-p33n feels huge."
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MrRael
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Posted - 2006.10.28 16:22:00 -
[14]
I believe what Butter Dog is saying is that the increase in HP simply means people will NOW have enough HP to passive tank long enough to kill the other ship first. so having a rep only decreases your tank in the long run.
But i have to go with everyone else about this since EVERYONE has an increase in HP, the Passive Tank situation is evened out since it will take u just as long to burn thru the enemy HP as they will to you if u both run passive tanks. the end result is DPS HAS NOT GONE UP so technically the reps we have now should still do as well as it has been. Its just 1v1 battles are gonna take longer.
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Excremento
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Posted - 2006.10.28 16:54:00 -
[15]
No Way. Fights already last forever. Now its basically all about cap and who can nos the most.
I dont want to have to fit more than 4 Nos's on my ship and have to spend millions on T2 ammo for every fight.
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Hitokiri 'ger
Caldari
Mystic Lion Hearts
Freelancer Coalition
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Posted - 2006.10.28 17:06:00 -
[16]
at that rate of boosting you wukldd have no problem to tank a a same big ship forever. cap problem ? only if you use capbooster - they wuld eventualy run out. nos? np just nos back and do even les damag - whitch reduses the rep ned and enlarges the cap of the other ship .... so whot ? you need to increas the damag aswel !! whitch wuld basicly bring you to the same point as we are atm (exept that a smaler ship wuld dy even faster).
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Udyr Vulpayne
Amarr
PIE Inc.
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Posted - 2006.10.28 17:33:00 -
[17]
Edited by: Udyr Vulpayne on 28/10/2006 17:34:21
Edited by: Udyr Vulpayne on 28/10/2006 17:33:33
as has been said before increasing the repair/boost amount would be more than stupid as it would definately create unbreakable tanks.
what needs to be done instead is increasing the cap and/or cap recharge rate of all ships depending on how cap reliant each ship is. especially amarrian laser rof ships and gallente blaster ships need more cap now that they will have to fight longer. unless of course the devs want to shift the ballance even more in favour of ships which are not depending on cap to fire and/or tank.
also maybe dont boost plates and extenders as strong as the ships themself. plates are already seeing heavy use and dont need to become more important.
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LaCoHa
Caldari Deep Space Navy
Caldari Deep Space Industral
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Posted - 2006.10.28 18:47:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Udyr Vulpayne
also maybe dont boost plates and extenders as strong as the ships themself. plates are already seeing heavy use and dont need to become more important.
Yeah, I think as it is you can get a Apoc up to about 100k armor now - or damn close anyways.
"I just slaughtered 28 people in that game of Battlefield 2 and never died. Man my e-p33n feels huge."
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Hex'Caliber
Gallente
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Posted - 2006.10.29 13:09:00 -
[19]
I have to ask as I forgot to check myself, has the natural regen rate of each ships shields been changed to compensate for the increased hp?
If the base regeneration has not changed, all shield tanking ships just got a 50% boost to hp naturally restored per second and to shield hp. If this is the case, then the hp changes also indirectly boosted the efficiency of pduÆs, shield power relays, shield rechargerÆs and shield flux coils, with no corresponding boost for armour tanking efficiency.
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Regards HexCaliber
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Mjnari
Empyreum
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Posted - 2006.10.29 13:53:00 -
[20]
Originally by: Hex'Caliber
I have to ask as I forgot to check myself, has the natural regen rate of each ships shields been changed to compensate for the increased hp?
If the base regeneration has not changed, all shield tanking ships just got a 50% boost to hp naturally restored per second and to shield hp. If this is the case, then the hp changes also indirectly boosted the efficiency of pduÆs, shield power relays, shield rechargerÆs and shield flux coils, with no corresponding boost for armour tanking efficiency.
Yes, I'm pretty sure I remember Tux posting in Ship & Mods with numbers. Recharge rates get increased - regen rate stays the same.
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Minmatar,
It should be like going down a flight of stairs on an office chair shooting an Uzi. |
Amy Wang
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Posted - 2006.10.29 18:03:00 -
[21]
I think Butter is right in the point that the HP increase favours passive tanks with extenders/plates.
On the other hand I¦m not sure boosting active tanking as well wouldnt screw things up even more.
However the HP change made ships with repair/boost amount bonuses even worse then before and this needs to be adressed before Kali goes live.
Either change active tank bonuses to passive ones (preferably resists, hp amount bonus if you must...)
or double the boost bonus to make them worthwhile, so that active tanks are at least viable on ships with the appropriate bonus.
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Lani Yul
Caldari
Phaze-9
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Posted - 2006.10.29 19:24:00 -
[22]
Shield recharge time has increased by about 50%, so no, passive tank didn't get that much better.
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Kashre
Minmatar
Imperium Technologies
Firmus Ixion
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Posted - 2006.10.30 00:14:00 -
[23]
Originally by: Lani Yul
Shield recharge time has increased by about 50%, so no, passive tank didn't get that much better.
Weeelll... Im not a math whiz here so someone correct me if I'm wrong... but...
say Im flying a Hurricane with 2x Medium armor rep II on it, with max skills thats 320hp every 9 seconds x2, or 71 DPS tanked.
I had a drake with a workable PvP setup (including AB and 20km scrambler) with 20k shield HP. It probably had about 30k total HP, the hurricane maybe 18k.
So if you assume with DC's both of them have 50% resists, on average, and if I figured rage heavy assault missiles with max ROF from skills right the drake can put out 500+ DPS with 7 launchers....
520 DPS / 2 for resists 225 DPS - 71 for reppers = 154 DPS adjusted for everything I can think of except shield recharge which shouldnt matter tooo much I think. That will take 116 seconds to go through 18k HP and blow up the hurricane.
In order to kill a drake setup like mine first, the hurricane has to generate more than 258 DPS through the drake's resistance and shield recharge, or maybe 520-550 pre-resistance.
In that 116 seconds the reppers would give the Hurricane efectively 8200 or so extra HP... which is a little low compared to having 3x max skilled large extender II, but it's close.
Pretty much just based on that example, I think its *fairly* balanced the way it is, although maybe not when you consider the effect a lot of nos are going to have on an active tank compared to a passive tank. Either way, I think 50% boost to armor repair and shield boosters would be way too much. Maybe 10-15% to make up for the fact that they are active, but thats it.
Again, all of this is soley based on a> me having added it all up right and b> my opinion and nothing else. :P
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"Etiquette is for the Dojo. In war there is only victory or death." - Eiji Yoshikawa |
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