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Mythrantar
Caldari Dragon's Rage Ascendant Frontier
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Posted - 2006.10.28 18:39:00 -
[1]
If we forget the difference in cost between the two ships and also the difference in skill requirements, which one do you think is the best ship to run level 4 missions?
At first glance, the CNR has higher damage output than the Rattlensake, since it can fit 7 launchers. However, considering that you would want to fit at least 1 heavy NOS and a tractor beam, you are still stuck with only 6 launchers, just like the Rattlesnake. Then, the extra low-slot of the Rattlesnake could be used for a nice named damage control module, or maybe a T2 PDS, which will further improve the survivability of the Rattlesnake (it already has slightly more total HP than the CNR). Not to mention, that large rail damage bonus might come handy in certain situations.
So, all in all the Rattlesnake seems to me as a better ship for ratting/mission-running than the CNR. Is my analysis correct, or am I missing something?
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RotaX TakeR
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Posted - 2006.10.28 19:21:00 -
[2]
CNR
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Carniflex
Caldari StarHunt The UnAssociated
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Posted - 2006.10.28 19:30:00 -
[3]
You dont need to use tractor beam on your combat ship. Use separate ship for looting as in your combat ship you dont have anyway enough room for loot. Considering that CNR has better dps you will do missions faster (and can kill agressed groups off faster letting you tank as reasonably as rattlesnake) I would say that CNR is better ship for level 4 missions.
Carniflex
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Wildwa
Caldari Quantum Tech Mining
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Posted - 2006.10.28 21:41:00 -
[4]
Do you kill that much faster with that extra launcher? Considering the 50% missle velocity bonus on the rattlesnake and say your using javelin torps......i dunno, might be pretty close. Those torps will close on those targets pretty darn fast.
Aside from that, the rattlesnake looks way better IMO
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Lubricity
Beyond Divinity Inc
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Posted - 2006.10.28 22:33:00 -
[5]
Originally by: Wildwa Do you kill that much faster with that extra launcher? Considering the 50% missle velocity bonus on the rattlesnake and say your using javelin torps......i dunno, might be pretty close. Those torps will close on those targets pretty darn fast.
Aside from that, the rattlesnake looks way better IMO
After the first volley hits, missile velocity is a non-factor. Your dps is based on damage and rof, how fast the missiles get there doesn't change that.
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Lubricity
Beyond Divinity Inc
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Posted - 2006.10.28 22:35:00 -
[6]
Also, if you can tank a mission fine in a CNR, why would you care about a better tanking ship that has less DPS?
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Mad Mackem
E X O D U S Imperial Republic Of the North
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Posted - 2006.10.28 23:16:00 -
[7]
Originally by: Lubricity
Originally by: Wildwa Do you kill that much faster with that extra launcher? Considering the 50% missle velocity bonus on the rattlesnake and say your using javelin torps......i dunno, might be pretty close. Those torps will close on those targets pretty darn fast.
Aside from that, the rattlesnake looks way better IMO
After the first volley hits, missile velocity is a non-factor. Your dps is based on damage and rof, how fast the missiles get there doesn't change that.
Not strictly true as the missile get's that little bit closer to the target before it explodes giving slightly more damage.
However having used both CNR is still the better ship by far.
Regards
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Trevedian
Amarr KR0M The Red Skull
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Posted - 2006.10.29 04:11:00 -
[8]
Edited by: Trevedian on 29/10/2006 04:12:55 The RATTLESNAKE has an extra lowslot which can make a big difference in some setups...
People think CNR's always do more damage cuz of the 7 launcher slots, for the last PVP alliance championship we did some tests and our Rattlesnake w/6 launchers could fire 2 more cruise missles a minute than our CNR w/ 7 launchers, plus the Rattler had a 425mm II fitted as well. (The setups were slightly different)
The Rattlesnake has an extra lowslot and more shields (3k or so), the CNR has 20 more CPU and a 7th launcher slot, if you only need 6 launcher slots then the Rattlesnake is the clear winner, if your using 7 launcher slots use the CNR.
Sex0r > you're bounty turns me on.. you seem like the kind of amarrian to dominate me
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Prichard
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Posted - 2006.10.29 04:29:00 -
[9]
i prefer the rattler coz he tanks better , and has 2 free medslots which i use for an officer smartbomb which clears out all frigs and a tractor beam for easy , fast looting
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Iudex
Caldari CaIdari Navy
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Posted - 2006.10.29 06:55:00 -
[10]
The rattelsnake does not have any missile velocity bonus over the cnr if you have bs 5 (which missionrunners that are long enough in the game to afford it usually have).
The better tank does not make you do the missions better, as with a cnr + proper fittings you can already tank any lvl 4 easily. It works so good that i even have 5 ballistic controls in the lowslots of my cnr and still dont't have any problems on the lvl 4s i do (works only with expensive med-slot fitting and only if you know your missions well, of corse).
Maybe the rattlesnake will be interesting when lvl 5 agents are out, but for lvl 4 the cnr is defenitely a winner, caus of the 7th turret hardpoint. Makes no sense fit rails if your head is full with missile-related hardwires and your lows with ballistic conrols imho.
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Nyphur
Pillowsoft Interstellar Starbase Syndicate
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Posted - 2006.10.29 09:35:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Mad Mackem Not strictly true as the missile get's that little bit closer to the target before it explodes giving slightly more damage.
That's not true in any way, shape or form.
Eve-Tanking.com - For tanking spreadsheet and resources. |
Mad Mackem
E X O D U S Imperial Republic Of the North
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Posted - 2006.10.29 10:19:00 -
[12]
Edited by: Mad Mackem on 29/10/2006 10:20:23
Originally by: Nyphur
Originally by: Mad Mackem Not strictly true as the missile get's that little bit closer to the target before it explodes giving slightly more damage.
That's not true in any way, shape or form.
How do you explain the extra 10 damage or so on an identical missile then?
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Sokratesz
Guardians of Hell's Gate Tactical Narcotics Team
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Posted - 2006.10.29 13:27:00 -
[13]
Edited by: Sokratesz on 29/10/2006 13:29:33 If missile damage is only determined by the given stats it shouldn't make a difference.
On topic..
CNR: more DPS however you'll need a RCU-II to fit it completely (wasting a lowslot) - or you need 3 - 4 PDU-II (wasting damage mods)
Rattlesnake: by far the better tanker and with three BCU-II has similar DPS to a CNR with 7 launchers *but* the Rattlesnake can still fit 2 PDU-II and 1 damage control.
So, rattlesnake wins for me, and not only in PVE..in pvp the much higher HP amount makes a difference if youre in skirmish (short-term tanking, taking alot of damage ina short time)
see sig...lol
WTS Rattlesnake, 2.1Bil, or trade for CNR + 800Mil. Contact me in-game. |
Leandro Salazar
Aeon Industries
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Posted - 2006.10.29 15:02:00 -
[14]
Edited by: Leandro Salazar on 29/10/2006 15:03:53
Originally by: Sokratesz Edited by: Sokratesz on 29/10/2006 13:29:33 If missile damage is only determined by the given stats it shouldn't make a difference.
On topic..
CNR: more DPS however you'll need a RCU-II to fit it completely (wasting a lowslot) - or you need 3 - 4 PDU-II (wasting damage mods)
Rattlesnake: by far the better tanker and with three BCU-II has similar DPS to a CNR with 7 launchers *but* the Rattlesnake can still fit 2 PDU-II and 1 damage control.
So, rattlesnake wins for me, and not only in PVE..in pvp the much higher HP amount makes a difference if youre in skirmish (short-term tanking, taking alot of damage ina short time)
see sig...lol
You don't need an RCU, you just need to downgrade the heavy nos to a corpum A medium one. tanks fine, has 7 Siege2 and 3 BCUs. Best mission gank there is. And that 7th launcher slot makes a big difference as it is very often the difference between taking X volleys to kill something or taking X+1 (or even X+2 for some high end BBs). Especially critical with NPC BCs which the CNR can one-volley and the Rattler cannot. PvE is a clear win for the CNR. Just like the Rattlesnake is a much better PvP ship. --------- ZOMG my sig was concordokkened! Link removed due to bad language on remote site. -wystler
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Lord WarATron
Amarr Out Siders Ascendant Frontier
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Posted - 2006.10.29 22:47:00 -
[15]
Originally by: Mad Mackem Edited by: Mad Mackem on 29/10/2006 10:20:23
Originally by: Nyphur
Originally by: Mad Mackem Not strictly true as the missile get's that little bit closer to the target before it explodes giving slightly more damage.
That's not true in any way, shape or form.
How do you explain the extra 10 damage or so on an identical missile then?
Its a myth - The longer the time (hence the speed) between missiles, the more time the enemy has to repair. Perhaps you hit a enemy as he repaired a bit of shield, thus changing the resits. Perhaps thats why you perceive an extra 10 damage as you are getting closer us reducing the time inbetween missiles, thus doing more damage while the enemy has less time to repair... at least till you get right up to the enemy. --- Slot 10 Akemons Modified 'Noble'Zet 5000 implant +8% Armour FREE |
Sokratesz
Guardians of Hell's Gate Tactical Narcotics Team
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Posted - 2006.10.29 23:15:00 -
[16]
Edited by: Sokratesz on 29/10/2006 23:15:56
er...the time between missiles hitting is exactly the same as the ROF - missile speed has nothing to do with that
the only time when a missiles speed really matters is when the enemy is firing defenders - if your missiles travel >7500m/s they cant catch it
WTS Rattlesnake, 2.1Bil, or trade for CNR + 800Mil. Contact me in-game. |
Arakasai
Caldari Blueprint Haus
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Posted - 2006.10.29 23:39:00 -
[17]
If you are sufficiently skilled the CNR will function better for running Level 4 missions than the Rattlesnake.
If you need a NOS to survive level 4 missions then you are not sufficiently skilled and would probably do better in the Rattlesnake.
Survivability in a level 4 mission should not be in question, if it is then you should probably not be flying either ship.
All of that said, depending on your isk situation, and given your "survivability" comments, I would suggest investing the isk in kitting out a standard Raven. I would not suggest moving to a CNR or a Rattlesnake unless you can afford to kit them properly. So have the kit before you move up to one.
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Sokratesz
Guardians of Hell's Gate Tactical Narcotics Team
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Posted - 2006.10.30 07:27:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Arakasai
Survivability in a level 4 mission should not be in question, if it is then you should probably not be flying either ship.
Well..i daresay i have 'sufficient' skillpoints, but my raven got dangerously low on shield when the whole pocket aggroed me in EA-1. Generally its more a thing of fitting..the right fitting will save ya...
WTS Rattlesnake, 2.1Bil, or trade for CNR + 800Mil. Contact me in-game. |
Shinshi Casoyako
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Posted - 2006.10.30 09:17:00 -
[19]
There is alot of nonsense talk in this thread. Missile velocity that does/doesnt make a difference, putting a smartbomb in midslot, and by all god using a NOS???
In my T2 fitted raven I can handle every mission, apart from AE4 bonus and the mission that I dont do Enemies abound. (faction standing hits etc.) I do this with 2 tractor beams and 6 cruise missile launchers.
Now we gonna check which of the ships is best. For this we do a quickfit and use a shield tank based on: 1 large t2 booster, 2 boost amps, 3 rat specified hardners. We calculate with my skills which are both gallente and caldari BS at 5. We use quickfit and we gonna shoot an officer and see how fast we can kill it.
Rattlesnake 6BCU II (lose a tractor for this) Global Damage output Damage per second on Shield : 170.881 (170.881 taking accuracy into account) Damage per second on Armor : 213.601 (213.602 taking accuracy into account) Damage per second on Structure : 284.802 (284.802 taking accuracy into account) Average DPS : 210.753
CNR: (5BCU II no cpu problems) Global Damage output Damage per second on Shield : 198.157 (198.156 taking accuracy into account) Damage per second on Armor : 247.696 (247.695 taking accuracy into account) Damage per second on Structure : 330.262 (330.26 taking accuracy into account) Average DPS : 244.394
I think we have a winner. . Seriously Have I Not Said How I Can Assist Some One You Are Killing Online? |
Lord WarATron
Amarr Out Siders Ascendant Frontier
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Posted - 2006.10.30 09:53:00 -
[20]
Originally by: Sokratesz Edited by: Sokratesz on 29/10/2006 23:15:56
er...the time between missiles hitting is exactly the same as the ROF - missile speed has nothing to do with that
the only time when a missiles speed really matters is when the enemy is firing defenders - if your missiles travel >7500m/s they cant catch it
With jav torps - people no longer drive bomb. Heck - you cannot really dive bomb due to speed penenties with T2 jav torps!
But with t1 torps, against a target that can tank your damage (for example, taking on the drone 5/10 boss solo without with "Boss never repairs exploit" by sniping at over 50km) the only way you can beat it is by dive bombing multiple times.
For example, if you are spamming torps, and mwding to the target at the same time from a distace, you dps is the same, however, you are compressing the damage close together, thus banking on instapoping the opponent before his repair cycles.
Something you dont see much of now though, other than for taking out supertanker npc's --- Slot 10 Akemons Modified 'Noble'Zet 5000 implant +8% Armour FREE |
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Hephaesteus
Gallente
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Posted - 2006.10.30 10:08:00 -
[21]
Lmfao do people really use T2 ammo to run missions? If they do that is just sad imho, missions are easy enough with T1 ammo T2 is just overkill. -----------------------------------------------
Knowing all, when all is unknown.
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Lord WarATron
Amarr Out Siders Ascendant Frontier
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Posted - 2006.10.30 10:30:00 -
[22]
Originally by: Hephaesteus Lmfao do people really use T2 ammo to run missions? If they do that is just sad imho, missions are easy enough with T1 ammo T2 is just overkill.
I know for a fact that people use jav torps for missions, simple because teh isk/hour ratio they get is higher than by using t1 cruise, or even t1 torps, and the extra isk they get per hour more than covers the cost of Jav torps.
I remember someone stating that if jav torps hit 4k isk in price each, it would be on a level with t1 cruise for the isk/hour ratio. --- Slot 10 Akemons Modified 'Noble'Zet 5000 implant +8% Armour FREE |
Alesandra
Caldari CAS Technologies and Logistics
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Posted - 2006.10.30 11:15:00 -
[23]
Edited by: Alesandra on 30/10/2006 11:16:10
Originally by: Iudex It works so good that i even have 5 ballistic controls in the lowslots of my cnr and still dont't have any problems on the lvl 4s i do (works only with expensive med-slot fitting and only if you know your missions well, of corse).
Considering the stacking penalty, it isn't at all useful to use more than 3 BCS in a setup.
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Iudex
Caldari CaIdari Navy
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Posted - 2006.10.30 12:36:00 -
[24]
Originally by: Alesandra Edited by: Alesandra on 30/10/2006 11:16:10
Originally by: Iudex It works so good that i even have 5 ballistic controls in the lowslots of my cnr and still dont't have any problems on the lvl 4s i do (works only with expensive med-slot fitting and only if you know your missions well, of corse).
Considering the stacking penalty, it isn't at all useful to use more than 3 BCS in a setup.
Hum i guess you missed my point. I didn't say its a good idea in general to use 5 bcu. But when defence is absolutely no issue anymore, it makes sense to increase the damage output a littl at cost of some extra defence which, again, is useless in this special case. The 4th bcu increased the dps around 6%, the 5th a bit under 3% (this are numbers for a dg/kaikka bcu mix, with tech II the 5th is around 2%). So i don't think that around 9% extra dps isn't "at all usefull" when - again - the defence is no issue.
@Guy up with quickfit numbers: Forgive my noobishness, but why do you have diffrent values for shield and structure hits ? As far as i have seen only speed, signature and resistance make a diffrent: for example my cruise hits a sansha bs with 570.9 on shield and the same on structure, as they seem to have no em shield resistance, so don't understand how you can have diffrent values there. On the rest of your post i agree.
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Sokratesz
Guardians of Hell's Gate Tactical Narcotics Team
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Posted - 2006.10.30 14:03:00 -
[25]
Originally by: Shinshi Casoyako
Rattlesnake 6BCU II
6 BCU-II? thats a sore waste of three lowslots. The third itself only gives a very marginal (3%) boost, but the impatc of the 4th and beyond is within the margin of error.
Also, one T2 large booster *will not* be able to hold your tank with only 3 rat specific hardeners. And your cap can't run it 24/7 if you don't fit any PDU-II.
WTS Rattlesnake, 2.1Bil, or trade for CNR + 800Mil. Contact me in-game. |
Shadarle
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Posted - 2006.10.31 05:50:00 -
[26]
"but the impatc of the 4th and beyond is within the margin of error."
Before I get into the rest of the post I just had to comment on this. This poster obviously has 0 clue what margin of error means. Margin of error applies in polling, it is based on standard deviations and polling size... it has absolutely nothing to do with stacking penalties in EVE.
As to the point of BCU's, obviously it's a bit silly to compare a Rattlesnake with 6 BCU's to a CNR with 5 BCU's because neither situation would ever happen... at least I hope i wouldn't. You could argue 4 BCU's vs 4 BCU's, but after 4 you'd never fit another BCU instead of a PDS.
The Rattlesnake is a better tank, it's obviously not a better DPS ship as it has less missile slots. That's clear.
As to the overall point of the ships... if I had all the skills I'd rather have the rattlesnake. I'd rather use two tractors (unlike many I don't wanna fly back in a second ship to collect all the junk) and if you only use 6 launchers then a CNR loses it's major bonus. But since I have no plan to get Gallente BS skills in the near future I think I'll stick with a CNR as my ultimate mission ship.
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Tank Rankings - Ships & Fittings Compared! http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=386174 |
Sokratesz
Guardians of Hell's Gate Tactical Narcotics Team
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Posted - 2006.10.31 06:45:00 -
[27]
Edited by: Sokratesz on 31/10/2006 06:52:01
Originally by: Shadarle "but the impatc of the 4th and beyond is within the margin of error."
Before I get into the rest of the post I just had to comment on this. This poster obviously has 0 clue what margin of error means. Margin of error applies in polling, it is based on standard deviations and polling size... it has absolutely nothing to do with stacking penalties in EVE.
Margin of error as in, the difference is so small that a sligth hesitation when picking targets or any form of lag will undo it. I *obviously* didn't meant alpha, the set error margin of for example a t-test.
But thanks for assuming i know *nothing* about statistics - only finished it with an 8/10 last year Just because i didn't put something to words exactly right, i must be a retard.
WTS Rattlesnake, 2.1Bil, or trade for CNR + 800Mil. Contact me in-game. |
Ceremony Garp
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Posted - 2006.11.02 10:07:00 -
[28]
Originally by: Sokratesz ...Margin of error as in, the difference is so small that a sligth hesitation when picking targets or any form of lag will undo it. I *obviously* didn't meant alpha, the set error margin of for example a t-test.
But thanks for assuming i know *nothing* about statistics - only finished it with an 8/10 last year Just because i didn't put something to words exactly right, i must be a retard.
Ouch.
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Sokratesz
Guardians of Hell's Gate Tactical Narcotics Team
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Posted - 2006.11.02 12:34:00 -
[29]
Originally by: Ceremony Garp
Ouch.
??
WTS Rattlesnake, 2.1Bil, or trade for CNR + 800Mil. Contact me in-game. |
Talio ZomB
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Posted - 2006.11.02 12:54:00 -
[30]
In terms of that NOS issue, you will likely never need it on a CNR, I never did, and I fitted7 t2 siege on mine and never ever did I feel pushed to fit a nos, I never had cap issue or even close to having cap issues, and that was with t2 gear,
now most ppl fit faction tank so they would have even less cap issue.
but my fav is the CNR higher pg higher cpu higher damage potential higher sensor strength higher armour higher structure
1000 less shield but considering it has 50% over the standard raven it has enough 1 less low than the RS Does the above really justify the 600-800mil extra that the RS is charged at,
bought my last CNR for 1.28bil. consider that vs the RS and the above for mission running.
I think CNR wins.
my damage per torp is 767.8 with 3 t2 bcs (7.75 rof) now that xtra launcher gives me that much extra in volley damage, vs BS and cruisers that means something.
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