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Jim McGregor Caldari	Posted - 2006.11.03 14:26:00 - [31] Originally by: Miklas Laces Originally by: Rod Blaine Any 1v1 comparison (especially limited to only damage output as this one) is utterly invalid to balance discussions. Couldn't agree more. It's not like 1 vs 1 battleship fights happen so often.. And there's a lot more to ships than DPS and range, enough of that please. Maybe it happens for OTHER people? --- Eve Wiki \| Eve Tribune \| Eve Pirate
Rod Blaine Evolution Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.11.03 14:33:00 - [32] Edited by: Rod Blaine on 03/11/2006 14:34:37 Originally by: Jim McGregor Rod, there is a solution to your range problem: Railguns. Blasters are supposed to be really close range weapons ffs. You dont give them great dps and range because most fights take place at medium range? Thats what railguns are for! So you'd need to switch to rails for anything over 15km ? Isn't that essentially everything ? It doesn't leave any usability for blasters save those 1v1's that are nearly nonexistent anyway. Tbh, in the BS size class, medium range is 25km to ~50km. Autocannon can cover quite a nice part of that already. Pulses even more. Blasters cover none of it. Originally by: Jim McGregor Maybe it happens for OTHER people? It probably does, but does that warrant removing any role blasters have in gang combat in order to increase the viability autocannons have in those 1v1's ? I don't think so. Old blog
Aakron Hybrid Syndicate	Posted - 2006.11.03 14:39:00 - [33] Edited by: Aakron on 03/11/2006 14:40:56 egh, I completely agree with Rod that these 1v1 balance threads are pointless. Firstly you are generalising all combat by specifying only 1v1 You generalise that all 1v1 fights will occur between pilots fully trained to t2 guns and ammo You ignore the midslot advantage of the tempest or its variability to shield tank. You've ignored the fact that a single tackler with a web and scrambler enables the tempest to fight outside of this "sandbox" optimal. You've generalised all that but then include an Ion Blaster II dominix which is an unrealistic ship loadout. That graph proves nothing, include the effects of gangs, skillpoints, ecm and starting distance and you've created enough diverse situations that the outcome can't be predicted.
Wizie Minmatar Euphoria Released Euphoria Unleashed	Posted - 2006.11.03 14:54:00 - [34] Originally by: Rod Blaine Edited by: Rod Blaine on 03/11/2006 14:34:37 Originally by: Jim McGregor Rod, there is a solution to your range problem: Railguns. Blasters are supposed to be really close range weapons ffs. You dont give them great dps and range because most fights take place at medium range? Thats what railguns are for! So you'd need to switch to rails for anything over 15km ? Isn't that essentially everything ? It doesn't leave any usability for blasters save those 1v1's that are nearly nonexistent anyway. Tbh, in the BS size class, medium range is 25km to ~50km. Autocannon can cover quite a nice part of that already. Pulses even more. Blasters cover none of it. Originally by: Jim McGregor Maybe it happens for OTHER people? It probably does, but does that warrant removing any role blasters have in gang combat in order to increase the viability autocannons have in those 1v1's ? I don't think so. TBH, in BS class, medium range is 35k to 50K and autocannons cover about 10% of that. BTW, what you fail to mention is that a fight starting at 25K, you don't sit at 25K and hope that your minimal falloff dmg is going to cut it. You tend to fly close to the ship.. Atleast thats how I do things. A pulse geddon doesn't suffer from this problem. I can guarantee you this, from 35K a Bthron can close within blaster range rather quickly. Sure, my tempest will get in a few scratching and barely scratches 10 seconds before you score hits. Is that really a problem? Does that mean that blasters have all of a sudden been pushed outside the realm of usability? The mid slot.. Its the Tempests only saving grace against a Bthron... I've reached a point where I really dont care about balance of specific ships in this game. I say buff blasters even more, I'll be done training BS 5 and large blaster spec in a few weeks. ----------------- Sig removed by some noob
Alkeena Gallente Gradient Namtz'aar k'in	Posted - 2006.11.03 15:01:00 - [35] Edited by: Alkeena on 03/11/2006 15:03:23 Tempest has a Spare midslot > Tracking Disruptor II > Problem Solved.
Nyxus GALAXIAN Rule of Three	Posted - 2006.11.03 15:45:00 - [36] Edited by: Nyxus on 03/11/2006 15:46:35 Forget 30km disruptors. Get those T1 40km BS sized disruptors available asap. That way the Mega, Tempest, AND Geddon have a chance to fight at thier optimals ranges. Remember how Pulse geddons ruled 20km fights before T2 ammo? It was partly becuase they fought in thier optimal where 90% of random pvp occurs. T2 ammo just allowed the Mega to do the same thing since pulses were nerfed, only with much greater damage. I guess one pertinent question here is "What is close range for a battleship?" Blasters are specialty close range weapons. Is 20km "close range for battleships?" But imho 30km and 40km BS disruptors would help.....a lot. Nyxus It's great being Amarr, ain't it?Ö Originally by: Tuxford I love how you guys can take stats from a test server that is few months out of date and then panic over them. Gee, wonder why..
Jim McGregor Caldari	Posted - 2006.11.03 15:52:00 - [37] Edited by: Jim McGregor on 03/11/2006 15:56:33 Originally by: Nyxus Edited by: Nyxus on 03/11/2006 15:46:35 Forget 30km disruptors. Get those T1 40km BS sized disruptors available asap. That way the Mega, Tempest, AND Geddon have a chance to fight at thier optimals ranges. Remember how Pulse geddons ruled 20km fights before T2 ammo? It was partly becuase they fought in thier optimal where 90% of random pvp occurs. T2 ammo just allowed the Mega to do the same thing since pulses were nerfed, only with much greater damage. I guess one pertinent question here is "What is close range for a battleship?" Blasters are specialty close range weapons. Is 20km "close range for battleships?" But imho 30km and 40km BS disruptors would help.....a lot. Nyxus I agree. But im not surprised the gallente crowd doesnt. Because if I had a choice, I would fight the gallente ships at 30-40 km EVERY TIME in a minmatar ship. Edit: Btw, the mega already fights in its optimal range. Its the Tempests etc that doesnt. --- Eve Wiki \| Eve Tribune \| Eve Pirate
webkert Amarr Cutting Edge Incorporated RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2006.11.03 15:56:00 - [38] Its not just ACs vs blasters. http://go-dl1.eve-files.com/media/corp/web/MP_vs_neut.jpgMega pulse with con vs null neutron Looks fine, but lets add some transversal. Mega pulse with conflag vs null neutron Now, apparatly its ok for pulses to have crappy tracking at that range. But when blaster ammo get the same penalty its not? Moving on... Mega pulse t1 ammo vs neutron null Mega pulse scorch vs neutron null Mid range is supposed to be an advantage, but it's not. In fact, its not usefull at all. 40km is still inside optimal of all ewar, you cant use your dronebay in any meaningfull way. It wont take long for an interceptor to travel that distance and get you tackled, and if you do get tackled 40km off a gate/station its not like you can deaggress and redock or jump out.
Jim McGregor Caldari	Posted - 2006.11.03 15:57:00 - [39] Originally by: webkert Its not just ACs vs blasters. I know, but I dont know much about lasers. You are very welcome to add to the discussion. :) --- Eve Wiki \| Eve Tribune \| Eve Pirate
Tasty Burger	Posted - 2006.11.03 17:24:00 - [40] My suggestions: - Longer-range warp disruptors - Boost the falloff of the second-highest tier of autos and the highest tier. Why shouldn't the range increase? The range increases on all other guns. As it stands there is really no point to using higher-tier autos. If the falloff increased we would see autocannons strengths being emphasized, plus finally having a reason to use 200s/425s/800s. I fully expect some of you idiots to say "WELL MEBBE THEY SHOULD NERF THE SMALLER ONES INSTEAD, LOL". Thats why I give a pre-emptive "you are an dumbass". - It's great being Minmatar, ain't it?
MECTO Xenobytes Against ALL Authorities	Posted - 2006.11.03 17:51:00 - [41] Originally by: Tasty Burger I fully expect some of you idiots to say "WELL MEBBE THEY SHOULD NERF THE SMALLER ONES INSTEAD, LOL". Thats why I give a pre-emptive "you are snip". Play nice -Oiri Yusko balance team already done this by nerfing null along with all small ships.. It's Great Being Carebear in Kali - aint it? Originally by: Tuxford In this picture you might think that Gallente totally pwn. Well they're alright
Serapis Aote TBC	Posted - 2006.11.03 18:45:00 - [42] Originally by: Pattern Clarc Basically, your saying nerf the range of Null, so that a tempest can use it's warp scramber against a paper plated mega/domi without risk? The risk is ending up close to the blaster ship. If Tempest keeps range it wins, if blaster closes range it wins. If you look at it the other way...why should blasters be no risk at short range then.
Serapis Aote TBC	Posted - 2006.11.03 18:48:00 - [43] Originally by: Nyxus Edited by: Nyxus on 03/11/2006 15:46:35 Forget 30km disruptors. Get those T1 40km BS sized disruptors available asap. That way the Mega, Tempest, AND Geddon have a chance to fight at thier optimals ranges. Remember how Pulse geddons ruled 20km fights before T2 ammo? It was partly becuase they fought in thier optimal where 90% of random pvp occurs. T2 ammo just allowed the Mega to do the same thing since pulses were nerfed, only with much greater damage. I guess one pertinent question here is "What is close range for a battleship?" Blasters are specialty close range weapons. Is 20km "close range for battleships?" But imho 30km and 40km BS disruptors would help.....a lot. Nyxus that would solve alot of the balance issues. Trying to balance everything within the 20km range for BS just creates all these other problems.
Royaldo KVA Noble Inc. THE H0RDE	Posted - 2006.11.03 18:53:00 - [44] but... isnt the null ammo getting a tracking penelty in kali?
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial	Posted - 2006.11.03 19:05:00 - [45] Originally by: Jim McGregor First take a look at the graph: here I think there currently is little reason to use a minmatar battleship for close combat. Maybe if you manage to stay at 17,5 - 20 km, but its pretty silly imo. Whatever happened to blasters being CLOSE RANGE? The gallente ships are covering almost the entire warp disruptor range with their higher dps. Whats the point of autocannons again? The game is balanced (minnie vs gallente) on cruiser level, but the battleship level needs some work. Just to experiment, I made a graph where t2 large null ammo got -25% optimal range instead of the +25% optimal range it has now. Have a look here. Doesnt that look more like where blasters should be? I think maybe raise their damage even more would be a good idea if they had that range. I just want autocannons to get back in the game, and I dont care if blasters outdamage them totally up close. Thats fine. What I dont like is for minnie ships to have to stay at the edge of 20 km to outdamage blasters, which are supposed to be close range, but really arent today. This is why Null got such a large tracking nerf, because now at that distance Null has half the tracking of AC's where previously it had 20% more. I.E. now you can outrun a null fitted blasterboat due to its low tracking.
Phrixus Zephyr Yesodic Nomads Corp Triumvirate.	Posted - 2006.11.03 19:07:00 - [46] While we're at adding new mods, why don't we have a module that lets 200k snipers scramble their targets so they don't have to use tacklers. Or you know what really annoys me, crow's that sit at 15-20k spamming missles at 7-13k/s and my ranis can't compete. Can we get 20k webbers please so i can change the game to suit me? Oh and can i not have to fit a capbooster to survive because i run out of cap and its not fair. Oh and can i fit these guns and a decent tank without haveing maxed out skills? Can i just change game mechanics to fit my idea of a 1v1 regardless of how it will effect every other ship in the game? Mega range with null is AT BEST a slight problem for maybe 0.01% of all fights in eve. So adjust the range 'slightly' for Null L, i doubt many people would mind all that much. Will it happen though? Will it ****. Instead it gets a 50% tracking nerf, so now it's useless anyway. So wtf are you all complaining about?
Scordite	Posted - 2006.11.03 19:13:00 - [47] Originally by: Jim McGregor if I had a choice, I would fight the gallente ships at 30-40 km EVERY TIME in a minmatar ship. If 40km warp scrambling becomes and option, you do have the choice, since you are faster, and have more cap left over for mwd. No need to worry about pulses outranging you either, you are faster and can just close distance. They can't afford the cap to keep distance either. All races/ships/weapons have advantages and disadvantages. It's just that some advantages are better than others because they're easier to bring to bear, and some disadvantages are worse than others because they're easier to exploit. With the current state of null ammo, large blasters have only 1 disadvantage, cap use. And that one's hard to take advantage of because of the blaster advantage - high damage. If everything was properly balanced, damage, tanking, warp jamming, according to the concepts of each race and each weapon type, minmatar shortrange ships would have disadvantages that are hard for others to take advantage of (low hp for example, matters little when you're forced into a range that means your damage is reduced), and advantages that makes it easy for them to exploit the weaknesses of the other races (outranging blasters and outdamaging lasers at the range you dictate). I can understand why they're having trouble balancing everything so that the underlying concepts don't completely tip the scale to one side. ----------------------------------------------- The only legitimate use of the BLINK tag: Schr÷dinger's cat is [BLINK] not [/BLINK] dead.
Azerrad InExile	Posted - 2006.11.03 19:13:00 - [48] Originally by: Phrixus Zephyr Instead it gets a 50% tracking nerf, so now it's useless anyway. So wtf are you all complaining about? Even with the 50% tracking reduction, Null is pretty **** effective against an AC Tempest according to NBs sheet.
Royaldo KVA Noble Inc. THE H0RDE	Posted - 2006.11.03 19:14:00 - [49] they seem to be complaining about ..... but yeah, minnie suck, gallente is uber at 10km or less which sucks, caldari seems okish, and amarr is totally overpowered and needs a really good balancing. like...say ... remove all cap bonuses to their weapons.
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial	Posted - 2006.11.03 19:16:00 - [50] Originally by: Phrixus Zephyr While we're at adding new mods, why don't we have a module that lets 200k snipers scramble their targets so they don't have to use tacklers. Or you know what really annoys me, crow's that sit at 15-20k spamming missles at 7-13k/s and my ranis can't compete. Can we get 20k webbers please so i can change the game to suit me? Oh and can i not have to fit a capbooster to survive because i run out of cap and its not fair. Oh and can i fit these guns and a decent tank without haveing maxed out skills? Can i just change game mechanics to fit my idea of a 1v1 regardless of how it will effect every other ship in the game? Mega range with null is AT BEST a slight problem for maybe 0.01% of all fights in eve. So adjust the range 'slightly' for Null L, i doubt many people would mind all that much. Will it happen though? Will it ****. Instead it gets a 50% tracking nerf, so now it's useless anyway. So wtf are you all complaining about? Its not useless, it should still out-track t2 fitted lasers at that range[or were their tracking penalties(on top of the pulse lasers terrible tracking) removed?]. It just wont completly obsolete minmatar ships in the range that is supposed to be minmatars advantage. If its really an issue, manually fly your ship to reduce transversal velocity between you and your minmatar opponent. Now its become a battle of who can manuver their ship the best and smartest.
Phrixus Zephyr Yesodic Nomads Corp Triumvirate.	Posted - 2006.11.03 19:20:00 - [51] Edited by: Phrixus Zephyr on 03/11/2006 19:23:22 Edited by: Phrixus Zephyr on 03/11/2006 19:22:33 Originally by: Azerrad InExile Originally by: Phrixus Zephyr Instead it gets a 50% tracking nerf, so now it's useless anyway. So wtf are you all complaining about? Even with the 50% tracking reduction, Null is pretty ** effective against an AC Tempest according to NBs sheet. Forgive me if i don't put all my faith in a graph. Using null on a 'ranis/'rax/brutix hardly has me connecting all the time so i fail to see how a 50% tracking nerf balence's this with anything at all. Originally by:** Royaldo they seem to be complaining about ..... but yeah, minnie suck, gallente is uber at 10km or less which sucks, caldari seems okish, and amarr is totally overpowered and needs a really good balancing. like...say ... remove all cap bonuses to their weapons. Is that a joke? Originally by: Goumindong Now its become a battle of who can manuver their ship the best and smartest. Even if it breaks more ship's than it fixes? Wow, you may have fixed B'thron Vs Tempest to 'your' likeing, but you broke everything else that used the same ammo and was never a problem in the first place.
webkert Amarr Cutting Edge Incorporated RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2006.11.04 01:46:00 - [52] Originally by: Phrixus Zephyr Forgive me if i don't put all my faith in a graph. Using null on a 'ranis/'rax/brutix hardly has me connecting all the time so i fail to see how a 50% tracking nerf balence's this with anything at all. Right now there aint much point in bring a pulse ship to a close range gang, null have the same range as conflag, but with more then twice as much tracking and more dps. Even with a 50% penalty blasters will still have more tracking.
Pattern Clarc The Priory	Posted - 2006.11.04 02:23:00 - [53] Originally by: Jim McGregor Edited by: Jim McGregor on 03/11/2006 15:56:33 Originally by: Nyxus Edited by: Nyxus on 03/11/2006 15:46:35 Forget 30km disruptors. Get those T1 40km BS sized disruptors available asap. That way the Mega, Tempest, AND Geddon have a chance to fight at thier optimals ranges. Remember how Pulse geddons ruled 20km fights before T2 ammo? It was partly becuase they fought in thier optimal where 90% of random pvp occurs. T2 ammo just allowed the Mega to do the same thing since pulses were nerfed, only with much greater damage. I guess one pertinent question here is "What is close range for a battleship?" Blasters are specialty close range weapons. Is 20km "close range for battleships?" But imho 30km and 40km BS disruptors would help.....a lot. Nyxus I agree. But im not surprised the gallente crowd doesnt. Because if I had a choice, I would fight the gallente ships at 30-40 km EVERY TIME in a minmatar ship. Edit: Btw, the mega already fights in its optimal range. Its the Tempests etc that doesnt. Then you'd be asking for your NOS to be increased to 30km because tacklers would be able to sit at that range with impunity. (lol at my DB warp disrutper ares) This is silly, mainly because Jim is now arguming the tos, (IE, he wants to solo in his tempest using his cuty cutter setup, without risk, against the ship that is suppost to be the dogs *******s at close range combat) This is probably the worst type of whining. Sig removed lacks EVE content, email [email protected] if you have any questions - Xorus
HankMurphy Pelennor Swarm	Posted - 2006.11.04 02:40:00 - [54] Originally by: Pattern Clarc Then you'd be asking for your NOS to be increased to 30km because tacklers would be able to sit at that range with impunity. (lol at my DB warp disrutper ares) This is silly, mainly because Jim is now arguing the toss, (IE, he wants to solo in his tempest using his cuty cutter setup, without risk, against the ship that is suppost to be the dogs *******s at close range combat) This is probably the worst type of whining. worst type of whining? yes, this is absolutely horrid, in fact it borders on crimes against humanity anyways.... i think jim has a point. null just reaches out too far. the thron is meant to mwd in close and personal and fight in its optimal. the temp is supposed to keep close rangers at arms length and fight in the falloff. if null can reach out further than the temps falloff then things are kinda borked. now, the only problem w/ the 1v1 arguments is ppl can argue till the cows come home over different variables. the temp does get more mids so should be able to counter w/ something, but the mega can always just run outside of warp scram range. 6 to one half dozen to the other. all in all i agree w/ jim.... but then again i'm a minmatar
Nyxus GALAXIAN Rule of Three	Posted - 2006.11.04 06:07:00 - [55] Originally by: Pattern Then you'd be asking for your NOS to be increased to 30km because tacklers would be able to sit at that range with impunity. (lol at my DB warp disrutper ares) You missed the pertinent part. Originally by: Nyxus Get those T1 40km BS sized disruptors available asap. BS sized as in fitting reqs. Like a Tobias Warp Disruptor, but not as hard to fit. BS sized toys for BS sized ships. The sheer thought of crows orbiting at 35km scrambling makes me want to vomit. NOOOOOOoooooooooooo! Make it use 500 grid so its not slapped on to inties. Nyxus It's great being Amarr, ain't it?Ö Originally by: Tuxford I love how you guys can take stats from a test server that is few months out of date and then panic over them. Gee, wonder why..
Jim McGregor Caldari	Posted - 2006.11.04 08:47:00 - [56] Originally by: Goumindong This is why Null got such a large tracking nerf, because now at that distance Null has half the tracking of AC's where previously it had 20% more. I.E. now you can outrun a null fitted blasterboat due to its low tracking. I dont think the tracking nerf will have much effect, because the gallente ship will try to approach, and the minmatar ship have to try to keep distance. That means that the minmatar ship will be moving away from the gallente ship with almost 0 transversal velocity. But we'll see. I would have rather seen a optimal range reduction like I shown in the graph. I think it looked pretty good... --- Eve Wiki \| Eve Tribune \| Eve Pirate
Jim McGregor Caldari	Posted - 2006.11.04 08:50:00 - [57] Originally by: Nyxus The sheer thought of crows orbiting at 35km scrambling makes me want to vomit. NOOOOOOoooooooooooo! Make it use 500 grid so its not slapped on to inties. I agree. They should implement different size warp disruptors for different size ships. It also makes sense that frigate sized ones arent as powerful as battleship ones. Frigate warp disruptor - 20 km Cruiser warp disruptor - 25 km Battleship warp disruptor - 30 km Good, no? --- Eve Wiki \| Eve Tribune \| Eve Pirate
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial	Posted - 2006.11.04 09:48:00 - [58] Originally by: Jim McGregor Originally by: Goumindong This is why Null got such a large tracking nerf, because now at that distance Null has half the tracking of AC's where previously it had 20% more. I.E. now you can outrun a null fitted blasterboat due to its low tracking. I dont think the tracking nerf will have much effect, because the gallente ship will try to approach, and the minmatar ship have to try to keep distance. That means that the minmatar ship will be moving away from the gallente ship with almost 0 transversal velocity. But we'll see. I would have rather seen a optimal range reduction like I shown in the graph. I think it looked pretty good... Yea, if the minmatar ship runs away terribly, the tracking doesnt matter and Null still puts the blasters above the autocannons. So it really is a battle of who manuvers better, with the minmatar trying to maintain a high transversal[but not too high] and the Gallente trying to keep the transversal low. I dont really see the problem with that situation. I do however see a problem where the short range gun with long range ammo is better in all situations than the medium range gun with any ammo. The tracking nerf fixes that.

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