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Bradstone BRADNETT Process of Elimination	Posted - 2006.11.04 15:03:00 - [1] Ok, i can fly all the T2 ships, and use the nighthawk... what about T2 Battleships? why not? if they have large amounts of skills needed like command ships, but with the added BS skill level 5 and maybe a new skill like Advanced battleship command, and train that to level 3 or something... make them expensive so nOObs can't run and get them within a week hahahaa (had to say that, last night I saw a 3 week player in a navy raven, maybe a alt but doesn't seem right) What you think? they could do level 5 missions and maybe even level 6... if your a mission runner! 700 million isk
Kharakan Amarr GREY COUNCIL	Posted - 2006.11.04 18:40:00 - [2] Just... no. Originally by: Joshua Foiritain (to Dark Shikari) HAHAHA I KNOW YOUR ACCOUUNT NAME TIME TO DIE this signature space is claimed in the name of eris, haha I got to him first. neeneer
Ellaine TashMurkon MetaForge	Posted - 2006.11.04 19:35:00 - [3] There are dozens of good and bad ideas for BS T2, but CCP did not officialy suppot any of them. Like; -jumpdrive capable BS -aerial effect BS (like interdiction sphere is warp jamming eariel effect) -uber logistic -heavy asault BS (wich is last thing eve needs) -slightly beefed BS aka T2 component sink -fleet command BS -uber tanker low firepower BS -siege mode capable BS
Sessho Seki	Posted - 2006.11.04 21:22:00 - [4] at the end of the day, any T2 boat that is in the works needs two things... first some definite role that actually NEEDS to be filled (even if the players don't know of that role yet) second, if such a ship is to be, it has to be balanced in such a way that it doesn't become the "OMG-WTF-PWN-BBQ-insert colorful metaphor here" ship of uber-doom that everyone will know is the final word in fighting. With the upcoming changes and pretty hefty buffs to a lot of ships (particularly the larger ones) it ends up making fights 1-on-1 last long enough that you can literally run out of ammo and/or capacitor before killing the enemy ship. If such a ship was T2, and with the possible/implied T2 resists, it is simply going to make for a nearly unbreakable ship, and in some cases there are already tanks that are pretty close to unholy as it is. Without a “raison d'etre” to begin with, one has to ask why current answers to the problem aren’t enough and why a bigger and more capable version is going to be better without being overpowered or even simply unfair. Sure I’d like there to be T2 battleships, but I don’t want them simply for the sake of having a T2 triangle in the corner of the ship icon. I want it to be there for a definite and practical reason, and I just don’t see “more uberness” than smaller versions of ships in its role as a viable option. I’d bet that’s why CCP isn’t falling all over themselves to get T2 BS’s out there, because they know without a real need then there isn’t much reason.
Reggie Stoneloader eXceed Inc. Ascendant Frontier	Posted - 2006.11.04 21:46:00 - [5] Sessho hit the nail on the head. Just wanting a bigger, meaner ship to further amplify your skillpoint and isk advantage isn't a good reason to introduce a balance-breaking new feature to the game. I'm in favor of anti-sniping T2 battleships. I'm not sure what they'd do, but a reliable counter to sniping setups is the biggest gap in the EvE combat system right now. Forty interceptors and a CovOps works, but not all the time, and not many military entities can put such a team together. -------------- Civis Ascendant Sum
Ruze No Applicable Corporation	Posted - 2006.11.04 21:48:00 - [6] My favorite is the 'Flagship' idea. T2 Battleship level command ship, with minimal to no weaponry, heavy tanking or speed, built for command bonuses and the ability to open small warp tunnels for fellow fleet members. Of course, this idea is shot down EVERY SINGLE TIME because jump gates are the era of the titans. Personally, fleets need a better way to move and engage, and titan's will never amount to more than a dozen. Genesis Project
Reggie Stoneloader eXceed Inc. Ascendant Frontier	Posted - 2006.11.04 22:03:00 - [7] Yeah, that's a good one. It would be a great logistical asset and an affordable counter to Titan-capable adversaries. There really will only be a few Titans, and there's no reliabe way to kill them (EW immune, and with the new HP buff, tougher than the average POS) so once a major alliance has a Titan (And the kinks get worked out of its operation), they get to trample over everyone else's little gatecamps and chokepoints for a reasonable price in fuel and time, and almost no risk. That means there will be a crucial tactical apect of warfare and logistics that will only be available to the five richest kings of EvE. An alternative would be nice. -------------- Civis Ascendant Sum
Strikeclone Caldari Caldari Provisions	Posted - 2006.11.04 23:20:00 - [8] dons flame retardant suit At the end of the day, everytime a new ship is suggested we have the hand wringers whinge on about balance etc etc. The fact of the matter is battleship pilots, that is those of us who play Eve specifically to fly battleships have no tech2 battleship to play with. As it is we are only just getting a tier3 tech1 battleship sometime soon(tm) Both frigate and cruiser pilots have uber tough tanking and damage dealing ships by way of AF/HACs and there is no justifyable reason why a tech2 battleship should not likewise get serious tanking and damage dealing abilities. Lets not forget that battleships take the highest amount of damamge from all sources, being slow and having fat sig means plenty of nice turret hits and of course high end damamge from missiles as well. Some slightly enhanced damamge bonuses would be welcome too. The cost and skill requirements of any tech2 ships restricts their use to those with the SP and the resources to use them and loose them. Give me my Heavy Assault battleship! "Peace through the application of fingers in ears and humming real loud" Hoist Battle Ensigns
Reggie Stoneloader eXceed Inc. Ascendant Frontier	Posted - 2006.11.05 00:31:00 - [9] I hope you've got that flame suit zipped all the way up to your neck, because here comes the napalm. A mega assault battleship would be unbeatable, because there's nothing above it in the food chain. Imagine how powerful assault ships would be if there was nothing bigger than a Frigate, or a HAC in a world where Cruisers were the biggest ships around. The alternative to beating a HAC in a cruiser is to use a battlecruiser against it. The counter to a command ship is a battleship. A T2 combat battleship would have no equal, and really, a T1 battleship can be kitted out to defeat anything. Smartbombs, drones, nos and big beefy tanks make battleships a match for anything out there. You don't need more powerful versions, but you have tham anyway. If you want to spend a billion isk on a battleship that tanks like a dreadnought and does more damage than can be justified, get a faction battleship. -------------- Civis Ascendant Sum
Lygos ISS Navy Task Force	Posted - 2006.11.05 00:38:00 - [10] I'm not a fan of T2 in general. I feel that the misapplied concept of rarity detracts from the game, and tends to stymie a lot of potential conflict. For example, if T1 BPOs were all that was important, then people would have a reason to seek violent resolution in price wars. T2 makes the accessible game irrelevant, and the lack of competition or more importantly, risk, makes conflict on economic indicators moot. Thus, empire is boring, and the only advantage to seek comes from grinding. If we were to have some sort of T2 Battleship class hull, we'd have to consider its place and role on the battlefield at every level in the capital ship age. One option would be a new form of EW that only that ship can weild efficiently, and which is strictly useful in an anti-cap ship role. Like a weapon that can prevent or deactivate seigemode. Unfortunately, the Capital Ship Age is an abomination due to the scarcity/rarity concept run amok. If you hadn't noticed, scarcity/rarity leads to "fixation" and excessive economy on vulnerability in design. By extension, the implementation of POS directly leads to a blobbing focus. Subsequently, the POS are designed around the expectation of blobbing, thus cementing the relationship. Ergo, any ships designed with the current parameters of the Capital Ship Age in mind would be misbegotten. It's better to hold off on throwing good design after bad unless you just want to have more stuff to fix or surrender later. --- Private Investment should preceed Public Investment

The Associate	Posted - 2006.11.05 02:10:00 - [11] Originally by: Reggie Stoneloader I hope you've got that flame suit zipped all the way up to your neck, because here comes the napalm. A mega assault battleship would be unbeatable, because there's nothing above it in the food chain. Imagine how powerful assault ships would be if there was nothing bigger than a Frigate, or a HAC in a world where Cruisers were the biggest ships around. The alternative to beating a HAC in a cruiser is to use a battlecruiser against it. The counter to a command ship is a battleship. A T2 combat battleship would have no equal, and really, a T1 battleship can be kitted out to defeat anything. Smartbombs, drones, nos and big beefy tanks make battleships a match for anything out there. You don't need more powerful versions, but you have tham anyway. If you want to spend a billion isk on a battleship that tanks like a dreadnought and does more damage than can be justified, get a faction battleship. Man this paragraph is so wrong. Battleships are not the be all and end all of combat. They are the most vulnerable ship in common use. But like Lycos said all this t2 ships are borking combat. Still for the sake of balance and fairness to the portion of the player base who consider themselves battleship specialists we need some tech2 ships for them to aspire too. Not ghey flagships with no teeth that sit a safepoints and provide obscure gang bonuses, thats what commadn ships are for. We need something hard and tough, over 3 years of retail and not a single new toy for batleship pilots to play with. We want something! Not more ranty waa waa whingy posts!
Strikeclone Caldari Caldari Provisions	Posted - 2006.11.05 03:00:00 - [12] Edited by: Strikeclone on 05/11/2006 03:02:09 Easy guys lets not trash talk and flame here, IGS is for all that crap I agree though for the sake of balance and fairness us battleship jockeys should get a nice tech 2 ship, and I see no reason why it should not be harder and tougher than a tech1 battleship. After all that is the trend they have set with the AF and the HACs. If this is not acceptable then some other form of powerful tech2 battleship concepts should be considered. Certainly not the toothless safespotter ship some of you propose. We have a test server why not make some T2 variants of T1 battleships with HAC ressists and some very nice damage bonuses, and all the high skill requiremetns you would expect from a premier tech2 ship. Then see how it fares. Edit: given that missiles are nerfed for pvp lets make them even more potent for pve, and provide Caldari with a nice 8 missile slot boat with great damage boosts and ressist. "Peace through the application of fingers in ears and humming real loud" Hoist Battle Ensigns
Thor Xian Vertigo One E.A.R.T.H. Federation	Posted - 2006.11.05 10:28:00 - [13] Tech 2 BS Advanced Force Recon Advanced Logistics Advanced Fleet Command All of them would tank better than their tech 1 counterpart, and for the most part they wouldn't do a whole lot more dmg. The main thing about t2 BS is that they will get slots out the wazzoo. Which is what will make them valuable. ~Thor Xian, Material Defender What is your opinion?
Ansuru Starlancer The Phoenix Rising Distant Star Alliance	Posted - 2006.11.05 12:37:00 - [14] Meh, capital ships ARE T2 battleships. Go buy a Thanatos.
Ellaine TashMurkon MetaForge	Posted - 2006.11.05 12:59:00 - [15] No they are not :)
Doomed Predator Xoth Inc Firmus Ixion	Posted - 2006.11.05 14:22:00 - [16] T2 scorp that can use a cov ops cloak.Everything else remains the same.Thats all i want to see. --------------------------------------------- The first mod to edit my sig gets a keg of beer(2 pink kegs if its done by a female) I don't like beer - Serathu Sera often mods in a dress, does that mean I can have his 2 kegs? - Cortes
Zarch AlDain Friends of Everyone	Posted - 2006.11.05 22:10:00 - [17] Originally by: Doomed Predator T2 scorp that can use a cov ops cloak.Everything else remains the same.Thats all i want to see. Evil - I like it. Seriously though 'counter to snipers' and 'counter to blobbing' are two things eve needs and which T2 battleships could provide - but how? Blob Counter: AOE weapons? Dispersion weapons that automatically scatter the targets? i.e. you fire a dispersion weapon at a fleet and everyone hit by its AOE gets warped by 200 km in a random direction. A battleship interdictoer? Slightly better resists and weapons but much more speed and the ability to use warp disrupt probes. Sniper counter: A ship that can both warp itself and gang warp itself and allies to any object on the grid - even hostile ships? A ship that broadcasts a powerful ECM field, halving the maximum senser range of every ship (both hostile and friendly) within 500km? All sorts of possibilities... Zarch AlDain
Reggie Stoneloader eXceed Inc. Ascendant Frontier	Posted - 2006.11.05 22:43:00 - [18] Originally by: Zarch AlDain i.e. you fire a dispersion weapon at a fleet and everyone hit by its AOE gets warped by 200 km in a random direction. This idea reminds me of an anti-gatecamp idea from months ago. The idea was a launched probe, like an interdiction sphere, that had the effect of creating a large spherical physical presence at its location, as though a POS bubble or something had appeared, and everyone not in the deployer's gang would be "bounced" away from it, like when you warp to a location inside an asteroid or station. It would effectively disengage the conflict for a moment, so your freighters could warp or your support fleet could come to defend you. It should only last twenty seconds or so. A T2 battleship with a slightly beefed up tank, six high slots and the ability to equip and fire these things would be pretty awesome. -------------- Civis Ascendant Sum
Nox Solaris	Posted - 2006.11.06 14:43:00 - [19] Idea for a T2 BS, that gives it a useful role: Archeology Platform. A ship that has a very large hold, mounts perhaps 4 hardpoints for weapons. Larger number of mid slots for archeology devices. Decent tank & speed, capable of defending itself against general threats and strong enough to outlast or survive long enough to escape from larger threats. Salvage Platform. Same as above, but with an extra high slot or two for large tractor beams (capable of hauling derelicts to itself). Big, tough as nails, but slow. Smallish 'cargo' hold, but very large 'salvage' bay for salvaged components (so it does not become a huge, armed hauler).
James Duar Merch Industrial	Posted - 2006.11.06 15:02:00 - [20] Frankly blobbing doesn't need a new ship to fix it, it needs some changes in the way ships in a group interact (i.e. get rid of the whole 'call primary - fire - call primary - fire' thing as the only viable tactic). The only thing I can think of that would be an anti-sniper weapon would be a mobile short range shield ship. Pops up a nice non-physical shield, that prevents the ships in it firing or being fired upon, and forces a short range fight. --- Recently returned from vacation on a sunny planet in 0.0. Guess which one!

Orrin Danestarr	Posted - 2006.11.06 15:16:00 - [21] Y NOT ALL? Seriously, do we have to be limited to a single option... Cruisers certainly arent, as are frigs. Id like to see all the ideas here honestly. "Imagination is the key that unlocks the door." - ME
Pedo Fortis	Posted - 2006.11.06 21:15:00 - [22] What about a fleet spinal mount T2 Battleship 3 normal turret hi slots 1 spinal turret hi slot slightly beefed tank but slow and low agility. New spinal mount turret that takes about 5x a large weapon powergrid and CPU but deals out 10x the damage. The spinal mount weapon types are very long range and high damage (XL) and comes in three parts: a low slot module, a mid slot module and a high slot module. The whole ship needs to turn to aim the weapon. When the ships is within 1 degree of the target then fine attitude adjusters cut in and refine the aim (i.e very slow tracking). The ship would shine in blob warfare situations with long range and clumps of ships. Pedo
Strikeclone Caldari Caldari Provisions	Posted - 2006.11.07 02:17:00 - [23] Edited by: Strikeclone on 07/11/2006 02:17:39 Originally by: Nox Solaris Idea for a T2 BS, that gives it a useful role: Archeology Platform. A ship that has a very large hold, mounts perhaps 4 hardpoints for weapons. Larger number of mid slots for archeology devices. Decent tank & speed, capable of defending itself against general threats and strong enough to outlast or survive long enough to escape from larger threats. Salvage Platform. Same as above, but with an extra high slot or two for large tractor beams (capable of hauling derelicts to itself). Big, tough as nails, but slow. Smallish 'cargo' hold, but very large 'salvage' bay for salvaged components (so it does not become a huge, armed hauler). You want to give someone who has spent the better part of 6 months training skills for tech 2 ships and battleship 5, an industrial ship....... Does this mean you have plans to convert the assault ships into uber ninja miners, and HACs into really really tough haulers? "Peace through the application of fingers in ears and humming real loud" Hoist Battle Ensigns
Reggie Stoneloader eXceed Inc. Ascendant Frontier	Posted - 2006.11.07 04:21:00 - [24] There are already super miners and really tough haulers. Don't be a whiny baby. You might wany a ship that makes you invincible in small-scale combat (They're already out there. Get a faction equipped faction battleship and you'll find that you can tank three HACs without difficulty.), but making something that is by default, and with conventional modules, as good as a faction-equipped ship, you alter the balance of the game. Seriously. A battleship-class HAC is too much power. It would be like giving a carrier eight turret hardpoints and letting it use stargates. -------------- Civis Ascendant Sum
Strikeclone Caldari Caldari Provisions	Posted - 2006.11.07 04:35:00 - [25] Originally by: Reggie Stoneloader There are already super miners and really tough haulers. Don't be a whiny baby. You might wany a ship that makes you invincible in small-scale combat (They're already out there. Get a faction equipped faction battleship and you'll find that you can tank three HACs without difficulty.), but making something that is by default, and with conventional modules, as good as a faction-equipped ship, you alter the balance of the game. Seriously. A battleship-class HAC is too much power. It would be like giving a carrier eight turret hardpoints and letting it use stargates. Who are you addressing with the above? Also you are good at making vague statements about balalnce but im still waiting for a sensible solution to be offered. "Peace through the application of fingers in ears and humming real loud" Hoist Battle Ensigns
Reggie Stoneloader eXceed Inc. Ascendant Frontier	Posted - 2006.11.07 04:47:00 - [26] I was addressing your post above. You're waiting for a solution? A solution to what problem? What gap is there in the EvE shipyard that a T2 battleship death machine variant would fill? It would give capital pilots a fun new ownmobile to grief in, and it would allow battleship specialists to be even more ridiculously powerful than they currently are, but it wouldn't address any of the problems that are currently identifiable in EvE apart from your rancor at not having another, higher tier of ship to broaden the gulf between you and those who started playing months or years after you. A T2-equipped battleship is the pinnacle of skill-based excellence in EvE combat. The next step is capital ships. You don't need a combat-specialized T2 battleship. That's as fine a point as I can put on it. -------------- Civis Ascendant Sum
Typhado3	Posted - 2006.11.07 05:02:00 - [27] I'm not gonna bother about argueing over weather T2 bs's are overpowered cause I don't feel like it. but I will give my idea's on what different types of t2 bs's my imagination can come up with. T2 Siege BS: A BS that can fit one (only one) XL turret/launcher. Give it some bonuses to help fit the weopon and a good tank so it can survive long enough to warp away if a pos start's shooting it. T2 repair BS: A BS designed for repairing. slightly different from the logistic's in it doesn't do tracking link's, cap transporters etc. but it does very good shield, armour (Hull? I wanna see a remote hull rep, maybe even only available on this ship) repairs. T2 Smart Bomb BS: No ship yet specialises in Smart Bombs so why not make a BS that does. with bonuses to smart bombs and maybe speed/mwd (to get close to your target). Well that's all I can think of atm.
Strikeclone Caldari Caldari Provisions	Posted - 2006.11.07 05:50:00 - [28] Reggie Stoneloader. Your a super noob really I quoted some guy who wants t2 battleships to be uber industrials, i reply to that idividual in sarcasm and you reply to me replying to him by continuing on your factless rant in a "uberwtfpwnmobilegankin3secondssnipeat1000kmomgimdeadnotchancetolockmyatackeromgiminmynewcloneandilost10millskipppointsbecausemyclonewasoutofdate" style. You fail to understand that battlehship pilots are the only pilots in Eve who do not have tech2 ships to play and experiment with. That is all the argument I need. I pay for this game same as you and I am sick of people lik eyou spounting alarmist rubbish. Battleships are not over powered as they are now, they are battleships for christ sake! they are ment to be powerfull. But powerful as they are its still the assault ships that can tank 10/10 complexes, its still assault ships that can tank and kill HACs. So its fair to say that battleships are far from overpowered. My second point is if you cant provide an alternative argument/suggestion you really should pick holes in anyone elses. And why keep mentioning capital ships? are you that daft? capital ships are not the next step for battleship pilots. I have no clue where you get this idea from. Dreadnaughts exsist to kill POS thats it. Carriers are support ships that mount no weapons. yeah obviously the logical upgrade for a battleship pilots. As long as you forget about fuel requirements, a cyno field gang mate and at least a dozen escorts....... There have been many decent suggestions for tech2 variants. And purely from a point of view of customer fairness I want to see some tech2 battleship class vessels that make use of and expand upon the skills I have spent over three years training to fly battleships. "Peace through the application of fingers in ears and humming real loud" Hoist Battle Ensigns
Reggie Stoneloader eXceed Inc. Ascendant Frontier	Posted - 2006.11.07 09:39:00 - [29] Originally by: Strikeclone Reggie Stoneloader. Your a super noob really I remember having some long, highly personal fights with Maya Rkell on these forums in months past, and nothing ever really got accomplished, so I'm going to refrain from becoming defensive and try to state my case without directly addressing your post. My basic premise is that the lack of a T2 battleship is not an adequate justification for creating a T2 battleship. New ships should be introduced to fill holes in the ship lineup. I'm glad to see the tier 2 battlecruisers. After using a missile-fitted Ferox for my entire career, the Drake will be a welcome addition to my hangar. That's something we were missing, something that people recognized a need for. Likewise, it made no sense for the Caldari to be lacking a battleship-class railgun platform. With the eintroduction of the Rokh, that void will be filled. From that premise, I derive my main point that a new class of ships, based on battleship hulls and upgraded with assault ship resistances and supplementary damage bonuses, is not needed. There's no gap in the lineup that it would fill. It's already possible to solo any level 4 mission with a tech 2 or faction fitted faction battleship, and most can be done with tech 1 fitted tier 2 battleship, with respectable skills and aggro management. In PvP, the battleship is already the main ship of the line in fleet engagements, and a tech 2 version would only make large-scale fighting more of a one-dimensional slugfest. In smaller-scale PvP, a T2 battleship would be either ruinously powerful or wholly ineffective, depending on the odds and what it's facing, just like they are now. It would just be more likely to succeed as a solo ownmobile. The primary source of the conflict between us, I think, is that you are enthusiastic about becoming a solo ownmobile, and I am unenthusiastic about sharing the galaxy with solo ownmobiles. In reality, I doubt that we'd see these ships used. Assuming consistency in T2 pricing trends, I estimate the price of these ships to stabilize in the neighborhood of 800 million to one billion isk, once the BPOs are distributed and researched. Add another hundred million for a T2 kit or half a billion for faction gear, and it's a huge investment. Just like the faction battleships, they'd be mission runners, used by carebears to farm high-sec agents the way the Hummer is used by suburban housewives to shuttle kids to soccer practice and pick up groceries. Anyone who got caught in PvP with one would be vulnerable in the same ways that current battleships are vulnerable, and judging by the number of faction battleships that are seen in PvP, I don't think anyone's really willing to risk such a thing in battle without having a logoff exploit handy for when they get called primary. Considering that, I'd much rather see T2 battleships either fill a niche role that allows them to be used without being on the front lines, much as carriers, dreadnaughts and command ships are. Logistical roles, industrial roles or support roles would be more appropriate and effective, in my mind. So, to sum up, your belief that you're entitled to a T2 funthing that perfectly complements your particular playstyle and magnifies your already considerable abilities is not a good enough reason to introduce the most expensive and powerful stargate-capable ship in history into the EvE galaxy. -------------- Civis Ascendant Sum
Ellaine TashMurkon MetaForge	Posted - 2006.11.07 10:21:00 - [30] There is no problem if there shuld or shuld not be T2 battleships. People want them. They fit in game ship evolution. They shuld exist. In some dev chat I've read, they will exist in some undefined future. The problem is lack of good, detailed, balanced, role-giving design. Practicaly every idea I see is dangerously overpowered (heavy assault BS?) or takes role of some alreday existing ships (uber logistics? uber command ship?) or needs more work from CCP programmers L:D.



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