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Risien Drogonne	Posted - 2006.11.06 02:29:00 - [31] Originally by: Malthros Zenobia Originally by: Risien Drogonne QFT. There is no balance reason for the tempest to exceed or even just match the megathron's DPS. Yes there is. If the Mega outclasses the Tempest at anyrange, then what the hell is the point of flying a tempest over a mega? Last time I checked, we're not talking about total combat ability. We're talking about DPS.
Miklas Laces A.N.A.R.C.H.I.C.A	Posted - 2006.11.06 03:06:00 - [32] Edited by: Miklas Laces on 06/11/2006 03:11:30 Originally by: Jim McGregor Tempest and Megathron 100 m/s transversal Your graph shows damage vs a target with a radius of 400m, but the tempest radius is smaller. In a 1 vs 1 the damage of the mega will be lower. Originally by: Jim McGregor I just wanted to show you a graph of how the range of null is making it impossible for the Tempest to outdamage it. Fit ECM on the 5th med slot of the Tempest and you will outdamage the Mega. Fit a tracking disruptor on the 5th med slot of the Tempest and you will outdamage the Mega. Also Neutrons with Null will have half the tracking speed of 800s with Barrage, and will therefore be less flexible and more vulnerable to tracking disruption. Finally, stop comparing DPS, there's lot more. Your Tempest will have 1 more Heavy NOS than the Mega, smaller radius, more speed, more range, better tracking, turrets that don't use cap and 1 more med slot for ecm or stuff.
Gerome Doutrande 4S Corporation	Posted - 2006.11.06 03:41:00 - [33] could someone add graphs for ions/electrons?
VeldMaster	Posted - 2006.11.06 04:00:00 - [34] Originally by: Jim McGregor rant You're absolutely right. I fought a thron the other day in my 650mm autopest and despite being 20km away from me, he still was doing good damage. I stood just about no chance no matter what range I tried to get to, although halfway through the fight I was pounding my keyboard so hard that half my guns turned off, and I didn't turn my tank on in time because I was complaining on TS about losing to blasterthron at close range. Null needs to be toned down a bit. Maybe reduce the range and add something fun instead, like a bonus to target painting.
Mila Prestoc	Posted - 2006.11.06 04:14:00 - [35] Originally by: Miklas Laces Fit ECM on the 5th med slot of the Tempest and you will outdamage the Mega. Fit a tracking disruptor on the 5th med slot of the Tempest and you will outdamage the Mega. Relying on a overpowered module that luck based and to be nerfed in Kali, no thanks. Originally by: Miklas Laces Also Neutrons with Null will have half the tracking speed of 800s with Barrage, and will therefore be less flexible and more vulnerable to tracking disruption. Tracking disruptor, sure will reduce range, still have to keep range. And pest doesn't have enough speed/agility to create traversal AND keep range. Originally by: Miklas Laces Finally, stop comparing DPS, there's lot more. Your Tempest will have 1 more Heavy NOS than the Mega, smaller radius, more speed, more range, better tracking, turrets that don't use cap and 1 more med slot for ecm or stuff. Oooooo 20m/s wow. Sig only affects chance to hit with traversal, and 20m/s more speed won't make any serious traversal. More range? Obviously you haven't looked at the stats. Tracking? At the range we have "more range" tracking isn't the biggest factor. Don't forget while your listing what Pest has, to list what Mega has. the extra drone space, the extra low slot to fit either a better tank or more damage. I wish it was as simple as you make it sound. ------------------------- Originally by: "Lord Violent" EvE is slowly becoming a game for the stupid, catered to by devs as they lack ability to kill/survive anything.
Gerome Doutrande 4S Corporation	Posted - 2006.11.06 04:38:00 - [36] Edited by: Gerome Doutrande on 06/11/2006 04:43:59 Tried adding ions/electrons myself, did I do that correctly, i.e. do your diagrams look the same? Megathron vs. Tempest 100 m/s trv
Sir Bart	Posted - 2006.11.06 05:32:00 - [37] Originally by: Jim McGregor Tempest and Megathron 100 m/s transversal Tempest and Megathron 200 m/s transversal I just wanted to show you a graph of how the range of null is making it impossible for the Tempest to outdamage it. <snip a bunch of unobjective arguments> ... Its so incredibly unbalanced. Posts like this bother me. "Balanced" doesn't mean the same. If you want to do the highest dps in a close range setup, you should be flying a megathron. Tempests have their merrits too but if you like to do lots of damage, megathron is the ship for you. Also, what are you comparing? 6 gun turrets in the tempest vs 7 with the megathron? Not a very fair comparison either. I like the tempest because a dual rep setup fits better and it gets 1 extra midslot. Put a tracking disruptor in your extra midslot and see how megathron compares? Bottom line, you can't go from ship to ship and say this ship is better in this area than this other ship. I want each ship to have pro's and cons and NOT be equal in any one area. However, for minmatar folks, I would not object to typhoon getting one more bonus. Right now it has it's bonuses apply to only 1/2 it's high slots. Most other ships have 6,7 or 8 highslots that receive benifit from their bonuses. If we changed the bonuses to: +5% damage with large projectiles and missiles +5% refire rate on missiles I think then the ship would be more equal to other ships like scorpion, dominix and geddon. (although these ships are nothing alike and I love it). -Bart
Zanarkand Gallente Enterprise Estonia Veritas Immortalis	Posted - 2006.11.06 05:35:00 - [38] Originally by: Sir Bart Originally by: Jim McGregor Tempest and Megathron 100 m/s transversal Tempest and Megathron 200 m/s transversal I just wanted to show you a graph of how the range of null is making it impossible for the Tempest to outdamage it. <snip a bunch of unobjective arguments> ... Its so incredibly unbalanced. Posts like this bother me. "Balanced" doesn't mean the same. If you want to do the highest dps in a close range setup, you should be flying a megathron. Tempests have their merrits too but if you like to do lots of damage, megathron is the ship for you. Also, what are you comparing? 6 gun turrets in the tempest vs 7 with the megathron? Not a very fair comparison either. I like the tempest because a dual rep setup fits better and it gets 1 extra midslot. Put a tracking disruptor in your extra midslot and see how megathron compares? Bottom line, you can't go from ship to ship and say this ship is better in this area than this other ship. I want each ship to have pro's and cons and NOT be equal in any one area. However, for minmatar folks, I would not object to typhoon getting one more bonus. Right now it has it's bonuses apply to only 1/2 it's high slots. Most other ships have 6,7 or 8 highslots that receive benifit from their bonuses. If we changed the bonuses to: +5% damage with large projectiles and missiles +5% refire rate on missiles I think then the ship would be more equal to other ships like scorpion, dominix and geddon. (although these ships are nothing alike and I love it). -Bart ???
FawKa Gallente Old Farts The Phantom Conglomerate	Posted - 2006.11.06 06:08:00 - [39] Does it matter on the mega with 37.5% tracking bonus - no Does it matter on the hype with no tracking at all, YES
Jim McGregor Caldari	Posted - 2006.11.06 09:39:00 - [40] I added the effect of a tracking disruptor. I would say its a essential module on a Tempest fighting a Megathron... --- Eve Wiki \| Eve Tribune \| Eve Pirate
Theron Gyrow Gradient Namtz'aar k'in	Posted - 2006.11.06 10:01:00 - [41] Originally by: Jim McGregor I added the effect of a tracking disruptor. I would say its a essential module on a Tempest fighting a Megathron... Very good. Now add two T2 sieges to Tempest. After neutrons, Mega has 4488.1 grid and 309.5 CPU remaining, after 800mms + sieges, Tempest has 4186.6 grid and 371 CPU remaining, i.e. 300 less grid less but 60 CPU more - and that CPU difference is huge. remember that the Tempest automatically has an invisible wingman that keeps on hitting the Megathron with one heavy cap neutralizer and one heavy nosferatu as long as the Mega is firing its guns and you'll start to have a reasonable view of the 1-vs-1 balance of the ships. You might also want to change Megathron to use Berserker IIs - they're faster and have a new damage type. -- NMTZ forum
Jim McGregor Caldari	Posted - 2006.11.06 10:08:00 - [42] Edited by: Jim McGregor on 06/11/2006 10:11:49 I think most Tempest pilots feel 2 heavy nos is better than siege launchers in pvp, not only because it helps vs virtually all ships you encounter, but specifically in this situation when you are fighting a cap hungry megathron. But yeah, if I add those, the dps for Tempest goes up even more. While this thread started out to show the range of null being unfair, I now think the Tempest is actually the better ship if it can manage to keep its range and use a tracking disruptor. And specially in Kali with the boosted hitpoints. That spells even more problems for cap hungry ships. --- Eve Wiki \| Eve Tribune \| Eve Pirate
Butter Dog The Dead Miners Society	Posted - 2006.11.06 10:16:00 - [43] what the hell are you talking about? Tempest outdamages the mega <10km and over 20km What more do you want? The gallente are SUPPOSED to be the best at close range.
Damien Smith Turbulent	Posted - 2006.11.06 10:33:00 - [44] Edited by: Damien Smith on 06/11/2006 10:35:30 What has to be looked at carefully here is making sure any changes intended to 'balance' Null Large don't in effect totally nerf Null S and Null M. The Megathron isn't the only Gallente ship that uses blasters. Ships like the Taranis need Null's tracking to be able to hit their targets while orbiting. The range bonus of Null S means that instead of trying to orbit at 1000m with Void, (which is still well in falloff and you'll have serious tracking issues) instead can orbit at 2000m with Null, trading a little needed extra range and tracking for the reduction in damage. Null S and M are hardly overpowered. Just reduce the range bonus of Null Large by a decent amount, reduce Null M by a small amount and leave Null S as it is. Nerfing the tracking to the point where you can't hit a slow moving dread, let alone a cruiser is the wrong way to go. Edit: Shpellingz ----------- Join channel 'Turby' or die! (bring pie) Mission running carebears drop good loot. Probe one out today! I <3 carebears on toast ^^ - Xorus I'll trade you some carebears for some sheep -Tirg +=♥ - Immy
Nadec Ascand Elite United Corp Antigo Dominion	Posted - 2006.11.06 11:00:00 - [45] Would say thanks for the sheet. Then i looked at thoose stats ... Tempest dont need thoose frecking nos to be able to run his guns. mega do. So i say fit 7 neutron T2 1 nos vs 6 800mm T2 + 2 siege T2 with javelin.... Run the stats and omg pest outdamage the tron from 0 km to 13km then 20km+ if the ship are both not moving... add 200m/s transversal and now it outdamage The tron evrywhere but in 16 to 18km... how outerly unfair is that ... Pest should outdamage tron evyway with evryweapon in any field...
Dreez Destructive Influence Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.11.06 11:07:00 - [46] Quote: No other turret class can match the sheer destructive power of particle blasters Hence.. no other turretship should out-dps a blastership, end of story. So stop "whining" about your AC tempest not beeing able to DPS more then a blasterthron using t2 amo. Atleast your guns dont drain your cap. Having Tuxford fixing the blasterships is like having a blind man teaching you how to drive - just wont work.
Mahu	Posted - 2006.11.06 11:09:00 - [47] Tempest with Hail does mostly explosive damage. On a standard tank of say 2/3 eanm and a damage control the mega's tank will be weakest against exp damage. In contrast the Tempest with a standard tank of 2 EANM and 1 DC have pretty solid resistences against the Mega's Thermal and Kinetic damage. When you put the tank in to the equasion and even with the mega using say 4 beserkers the Hail Tempest will out damage the mega. Simply put, fit 2 webs on your tempest, use your drones to pop his beserkers and keep range at anywhere past 7-9 km and you should win the fight. You should be running 2 heavy nos on that tempest as well plus his guns are using cap. Personally I recon with experience the odds are in favour of the tempest pilot with the correct fitting and at the correct range.
Mila Prestoc	Posted - 2006.11.06 11:14:00 - [48] Edited by: Mila Prestoc on 06/11/2006 11:17:56 Originally by: Theron Gyrow Originally by: Jim McGregor I added the effect of a tracking disruptor. I would say its a essential module on a Tempest fighting a Megathron... Very good. Now add two T2 sieges to Tempest. After neutrons, Mega has 4488.1 grid and 309.5 CPU remaining, after 800mms + sieges, Tempest has 4186.6 grid and 371 CPU remaining, i.e. 300 less grid less but 60 CPU more - and that CPU difference is huge. remember that the Tempest automatically has an invisible wingman that keeps on hitting the Megathron with one heavy cap neutralizer and one heavy nosferatu as long as the Mega is firing its guns and you'll start to have a reasonable view of the 1-vs-1 balance of the ships. You might also want to change Megathron to use Berserker IIs - they're faster and have a new damage type. Please check your statements, cos with your "reasonble" view you've missed lots out and over-exagurated to try to make your point. Your maths sucks. If you use blasters without controlled burst you deserve to run out of cap. Heavy Nos = 8.33 cap/sec Heavy Neut = 20.833 cap/sec Total = 29.163 cap/sec Neutron's use = 16.852 cap/sec Even with 3x T2 damage mods its 22.04 cap/sec That is no where near Neut + Nos. Sure its a factor if the fights lasts minutes, which with 1000dps it would take some tank to do. Hence Neutron Mega is possibly the best setup for it as it dominates (besides ECM-Nos Domi atm) the <= 20km range as it can out damage anything just by fitting Null. Plus what is a Pest supposed to fit after 800mm and Seige? Plates? Yeah cos we already have a fun time trying to keep range when a Mega has same agility and only a small percentage less speed. Situation. Pest see's a Mega 30km away, what does he do? Approach him? Nope cos if Mega hits his MWD and approachs the Pest you won't have time to turn and keep range. Double click approach and try to get traversal while closing at a slower rate? Better but no, Mega can just double click himself and Pest won't turn quick enough to change trajectory to keep him in range. If you don't land 10km to 20km away so you can manage distance instantly your screwed. My god you people don't get it, your lucky to get any traversal AND keep range!!! Seriously, tell me where i'm going to get traversal with no agility advantage and 20m/s? Saying "well null and a tracking disruptor means you can win" is rubbish excuse for Null not being overpowered, plus it means the Pest is just screwed against Domi's, Typhoons and Ravens. Butter, since when do you fit null up close? You deserve to lose if at point blank you fit long range t2 ammo which has a tracking penalty... Fit void and do stupid through the roof damage like only a Mega (and a Domi) can do. ------------------------- Originally by: "Lord Violent" EvE is slowly becoming a game for the stupid, catered to by devs as they lack ability to kill/survive anything.
Mila Prestoc	Posted - 2006.11.06 11:35:00 - [49] Originally by: Mahu Tempest with Hail does mostly explosive damage. On a standard tank of say 2/3 eanm and a damage control the mega's tank will be weakest against exp damage. In contrast the Tempest with a standard tank of 2 EANM and 1 DC have pretty solid resistences against the Mega's Thermal and Kinetic damage. When you put the tank in to the equasion and even with the mega using say 4 beserkers the Hail Tempest will out damage the mega. Simply put, fit 2 webs on your tempest, use your drones to pop his beserkers and keep range at anywhere past 7-9 km and you should win the fight. You should be running 2 heavy nos on that tempest as well plus his guns are using cap. Personally I recon with experience the odds are in favour of the tempest pilot with the correct fitting and at the correct range. You need to check your calculations. Hail does indeed do mostly exp damage, but it does less base damage than void. Tempests racial extra resistance is to EM, which the Mega will do 0% of. Mega's is in Kinetic which the Pest WILL do, with Barrage (to keep range) its doing about 45% Kinetic. With hails its more like 15% kinetic but its doing less base damage than void by 10%. If tracking disruptors are "4tw" and that makes it fair then i'd argue that a Mega would fit 1 extra damage mod or tanking module over the Pest with its extra low slot. Which puts the pest even further behind in damage and reduces the lose of range from the disruptor. I wish everything was as simple as people make out on the forums.... ------------------------- Originally by: "Lord Violent" EvE is slowly becoming a game for the stupid, catered to by devs as they lack ability to kill/survive anything.
Jim McGregor Caldari	Posted - 2006.11.06 11:42:00 - [50] Originally by: Mila Prestoc I wish everything was as simple as people make out on the forums.... Its impossible to take all things into account though. --- Eve Wiki \| Eve Tribune \| Eve Pirate
Imhotep Khem Total Mayhem.	Posted - 2006.11.06 12:06:00 - [51] Does a Tempest get a tracking disruptor bonus or come with one built in? Why are we talking about tracking disruptors? I agree the signature radius should be considered. Also, note that since autocannons track worse, the Tempest pilot should seek to reduce transversal. ____ "If your not dyin' your not tryin'." "Are you prepared to go all the way, Alexi?" DuGalle
Mahu	Posted - 2006.11.06 12:10:00 - [52] Edited by: Mahu on 06/11/2006 12:10:04 I'm not concerned about base damage because it's imaterial when u include the tank. Take a Mega with 3 EANM 1 DC and 1 Damage Mod using Null. Take a Tempest with 2 EANM 1 DC and 1 damage mod using Hail. At all ranges the tempest out damages the Mega. Use the same but with Void and the tempest with Hail out damages the mega after 4km. On top of this the mega's tank is less sustainable as 2 LAR IIs are using the 800 cap from the cap rechargers and the one extra nos on the tempest is slowly draining the mega's cap. The above figures were calculated with the same spread sheet that Jim used and dont have drones taken in concideration.
Mahu	Posted - 2006.11.06 12:12:00 - [53] Originally by: Imhotep Khem Does a Tempest get a tracking disruptor bonus or come with one built in? Why are we talking about tracking disruptors? I agree the signature radius should be considered. Also, note that since autocannons track worse, the Tempest pilot should seek to reduce transversal. Using 2 webs and the keep at range function I don't attempt to orbit. Just my pennies worth but I think the A/C Tempest is underestimated.
Jim McGregor Caldari	Posted - 2006.11.06 12:29:00 - [54] Edited by: Jim McGregor on 06/11/2006 12:30:34 Originally by: Imhotep Khem Also, note that since autocannons track worse, the Tempest pilot should seek to reduce transversal. Thats not what the graphs show (ive added some more, check the original post). You will not outdamage a megathron at all if you are not using a tracking disruptor. And if you are, and having 0 m/s transversal velocity, you need to be at about 17,5 km away from it to outdamage it. If you increase transversal to 100 m/s, you will outdamage it at about 11 km and onward. So it seems to me that keeping the transversal UP helps the Tempest. Right? --- Eve Wiki \| Eve Tribune \| Eve Pirate
Mahu	Posted - 2006.11.06 12:31:00 - [55] Edited by: Mahu on 06/11/2006 12:32:49 Originally by: Jim McGregor Edited by: Jim McGregor on 06/11/2006 12:29:21 Originally by: Imhotep Khem Also, note that since autocannons track worse, the Tempest pilot should seek to reduce transversal. Thats not what the graphs show (ive added some more, check the original post). You will not outdamage a megathron at all if you are not using a tracking disruptor. And if you are, and having 0 m/s transversal velocity, you need to be at about 17,5 km away from it to outdamage it. If you increase transversal to 100 m/s, you will outdamage it at about 11 km. So it seems to me that keeping the transversal UP helps the Tempest. Right? Are you including the tank in your equasion or raw damage? I just looked at your graphs again. It's raw damage with out the tank taken into account it seems. Put some average tank into that eqasion and take a look.
Jim McGregor Caldari	Posted - 2006.11.06 12:34:00 - [56] Edited by: Jim McGregor on 06/11/2006 12:36:12 Originally by: Mahu Put some average tank into that eqasion and take a look. I think most tanked battleships have pretty equal resists to everything, but if you give me the typical resist numbers of a megathron and a tempest, i can plug them in. --- Eve Wiki \| Eve Tribune \| Eve Pirate
Frools The Priory Shroud Of Darkness	Posted - 2006.11.06 12:35:00 - [57] Originally by: Damien Smith Null S and M are hardly overpowered. null s makes small pulse lasers useless tbh a crusader with conflag and dual light pulse is outrange and outdamaged by a light ion taranis with null use scorch and keep at range you say? 2 midslots you get a similar effect comparing thorax to omen/maller blasters + null > pulse + conflag and thats before you take into account drones actually its been said over and over, t2 ammo sucks and its screws over balance all over the place
Mahu	Posted - 2006.11.06 12:41:00 - [58] Originally by: Jim McGregor Edited by: Jim McGregor on 06/11/2006 12:36:12 Originally by: Mahu Put some average tank into that eqasion and take a look. I think most tanked battleships have pretty equal resists to everything, but if you give me the typical resist numbers of a megathron and a tempest, i can plug them in. I made one oversight. I am very interested in Temp verus Mega fights as I am a tempest a/c pilot. My figures are based on the following setup. 6 x dual 425mm II 2 x Heavy Diminishing Nos 1 x 100mn MWD II 1 x Heavy Electrochemical Cap Booster 2 x webs 1 x 20km scram 2 x LAR II 2 EANM II 1 x Internal DC 1 x Gyro II Verus Mega 7 x Electrons II (my oversight as you were comparing Neuts) 1 Heavy Diminishing Nos 1 x 100 MWD II 1 x Heavy Electrochemical Cap Booster 1 x web 1 x Scram 2 x LAR II 3 x EANM (think u need to use shadow ones) 1 x DC 1 x Damage Mod II These are both fairly standard PVP setups.
Miklas Laces A.N.A.R.C.H.I.C.A	Posted - 2006.11.06 13:02:00 - [59] Originally by: Mila Prestoc Tracking disruptor, sure will reduce range, still have to keep range. And pest doesn't have enough speed/agility to create traversal AND keep range. Tracking disruptor will reduce, gasp, tracking. Null will already have -50% tracking penalty, put a tracking disruptor on top of that and the Mega will miss you A LOT. Originally by: Mila Prestoc At the range we have "more range" tracking isn't the biggest factor. who cares ? you still have more range. In a gang you can shoot staying outside nos/scrambler, a mega cannot. Originally by: Mila Prestoc Don't forget while your listing what Pest has, to list what Mega has. the extra drone space, so could use 2x web drones and fit rest of drones same as Pest, that drone space is like a mid if you use ew drones. the extra low slot to fit either a better tank or more damage yes, every ship has its strenghts and its role. Showing a graph where 7 blasters do more damage than 6 autocannons, ignoring everything else about the ships is useless at the best. As the OP finally noticed, put a tracking disruptor and you outdamage the Mega 1 vs 1. If you think it matters that much...
Mila Prestoc	Posted - 2006.11.06 13:03:00 - [60] Originally by: Mahu Take a Mega with 3 EANM 1 DC and 1 Damage Mod using Null. Take a Tempest with 2 EANM 1 DC and 1 damage mod using Hail. What ? I even added a bit of traversal for ya at a realistic level. I'm guessing your including something you didn't mention. Yeah, strangly enough I use that graph to... I feel we've gone way off track anyway, Tracking nerf hasn't affected BS combat but vs smaller ships. Saying tempest has a chance by relying on just 1 module is no different from when it had to rely on ECM. This is being compared on a ship that has both ROF and DMG bonus due to AC's low base damage, yet it still can't beat Mega in mid range due to T2 ammo. So far from what I've gathered the best minmatar AC ship has to use: 2x seige t2's Tracking disruptor dual web mwd keep/control range with 20m/s and no extra agility use traversal with 20m/s and no extra agility kill drones to beat the Mega... No one is asking for a DPS increase, we're asking for the mid range advantage of AC's to actually be there. Especially with largest tier AC's which gains practically no range over small tier AC's. Neutrons gain 1500m optimal and 5000m falloff over Electrons. 800's gain 600m optimal and no falloff over 425mm's. T2 ammo only widens the difference by giving: 425's only 2400m more optimal and 10000m more falloff 800's only 3000m more optimal and 10000m more falloff while Neutrons get an extra 6750m Optimal and 3125m falloff and Electrons get an extra 4500, optimal and 1875m falloff. So the bigger the tier of blaster fitted the less and less range advantage the AC's have whatever they fit, especially whe using T2 ranged ammo. ------------------------- Originally by: "Lord Violent" EvE is slowly becoming a game for the stupid, catered to by devs as they lack ability to kill/survive anything.

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