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The tracking change to null does nothing for the Tempest

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Tanya Kovacs SteelVipers YouWhat	Posted - 2006.11.06 13:05:00 - [61] Edited by: Tanya Kovacs on 06/11/2006 13:08:37 Originally by: Damien Smith Edited by: Damien Smith on 06/11/2006 10:35:30 What has to be looked at carefully here is making sure any changes intended to 'balance' Null Large don't in effect totally nerf Null S and Null M. The Megathron isn't the only Gallente ship that uses blasters. What he said. I'm really worried about all this acpest vs. blasterthron comparsions and the "the nerf is just in time!"-yells. Please keep in mind there are smaller ships using blasters (not necessary Gallente ships) WITHOUT the tracking bonus of the Megathron. Originally by: Damien Smith Just reduce the range bonus of Null Large by a decent amount, reduce Null M by a small amount and leave Null S as it is. Something like this would be cool. Not the uniform model of nerfing for each variation, but a carefull and balanced correction of the attributes of every variation. But I highly doubt something like this will happen. For me it seems CCP prefers a hard hit with the nerfbat and a "live with it" for the next month until the next ship/weapon got hit with the bat or something new is introduced which renders an previous nerf obsolete. -- All my postings reflects just my personal opinion and my lacking knowledge of proper english. There is no lag in EVE \o/
Ithildin Gallente The Corporation The Corporation Alliance	Posted - 2006.11.06 13:16:00 - [62] Originally by: Jim McGregor Edited by: Jim McGregor on 06/11/2006 12:36:12 Originally by: Mahu Put some average tank into that eqasion and take a look. I think most tanked battleships have pretty equal resists to everything, but if you give me the typical resist numbers of a megathron and a tempest, i can plug them in. EM / EXP / Kin / TH Megathron, 3 slots: 79.81% / 54.56% / 67.18% / 67.18% Tempest, 3 slots: 84.85% / 54.56% / 62.14% / 67.18% Tempest, 3 slots: 70.00% / 59.50% / 66.25% / 70.75% T2 active Tempest, 2 slots: 82.39% / 47.17% / 55.97% / 61.84% I don't know how many slots the Tempest usually can sacrifice for resistances, so I provided three options for you. Typically the Megathron will not use active hardeners because it doesn't have the CPU for it. For the Tempest, select the one you think suits it best. The passive three-slotter has improved hull and shield resistances that aren't shown. Personally, I think the tracking nerf on Null is the wrong thing simply because it reduces hit chances at shorter ranges - something that's going to be embarrassingly obvious on the Hyperion (gods I hate having two ships of the same concept in the same category!). A much better boost to the situation would be to increase warp jamming device ranges by 50%, increasing the standard jamming range to 30km where the Tempest can fight optimally. (At the same time, the powergrid requirement on warp disruptors need to go up to around 50MW!) - Am I in the coolest alliance or what?
Jim McGregor Caldari	Posted - 2006.11.06 13:39:00 - [63] Edited by: Jim McGregor on 06/11/2006 13:46:24 Mila, your resists come out way higher than the ones I get? When I add 3 EANM II + 15% DC, I end up with going from 60/10/35/35 for the mega, to about 80/55/67/67? And judging from Ithildin, he gets the same...except my tank uses 4 slots. 3 EANM II + DC. Slightly confusing. :) --- Eve Wiki \| Eve Tribune \| Eve Pirate
Imhotep Khem Total Mayhem.	Posted - 2006.11.06 13:57:00 - [64] Originally by: Jim McGregor Edited by: Jim McGregor on 06/11/2006 12:30:34 Originally by: Imhotep Khem Also, note that since autocannons track worse, the Tempest pilot should seek to reduce transversal. Thats not what the graphs show (ive added some more, check the original post). You will not outdamage a megathron at all if you are not using a tracking disruptor. And if you are, and having 0 m/s transversal velocity, you need to be at about 17,5 km away from it to outdamage it. If you increase transversal to 100 m/s, you will outdamage it at about 11 km and onward. So it seems to me that keeping the transversal UP helps the Tempest. Right? No. When the tempest tracks worse than the Mega, eliminate the significance of tracking by reducing transversal. When the tempest tracks better because of the tracking disruptor, or tracking computer, etc. then seek to increase the significance of tracking by increasing transversal. Your graphs do bare that out. ____ "If your not dyin' your not tryin'." "Are you prepared to go all the way, Alexi?" DuGalle
Jim McGregor Caldari	Posted - 2006.11.06 13:58:00 - [65] Edited by: Jim McGregor on 06/11/2006 14:15:29 Originally by: Mahu Originally by: Jim McGregor Edited by: Jim McGregor on 06/11/2006 12:36:12 Originally by: Mahu Put some average tank into that eqasion and take a look. I think most tanked battleships have pretty equal resists to everything, but if you give me the typical resist numbers of a megathron and a tempest, i can plug them in. I made one oversight. I am very interested in Temp verus Mega fights as I am a tempest a/c pilot. My figures are based on the following setup. 6 x dual 425mm II 2 x Heavy Diminishing Nos 1 x 100mn MWD II 1 x Heavy Electrochemical Cap Booster 2 x webs 1 x 20km scram 2 x LAR II 2 EANM II 1 x Internal DC 1 x Gyro II Verus Mega 7 x Electrons II (my oversight as you were comparing Neuts) 1 Heavy Diminishing Nos 1 x 100 MWD II 1 x Heavy Electrochemical Cap Booster 1 x web 1 x Scram 2 x LAR II 3 x EANM (think u need to use shadow ones) 1 x DC 1 x Damage Mod II These are both fairly standard PVP setups. I put those setups in and here are the graphs: Without tracking disruptor With tracking disruptor I put in the 800 autocannons too, and as you can see, you really need those to outdamage the megathron, and that is when you are using a tracking disruptor as well. This is with 100 m/s transversal. --- Eve Wiki \| Eve Tribune \| Eve Pirate
Ithildin Gallente The Corporation The Corporation Alliance	Posted - 2006.11.06 14:06:00 - [66] Um, Jim, if you've got a neutron Megathron in the graph, you've got to have an 800mm Tempest - if those are the ships you compare. Add the 800mm 'pest or remove the neutron 'thron. - Am I in the coolest alliance or what?
Jim McGregor Caldari	Posted - 2006.11.06 14:07:00 - [67] Edited by: Jim McGregor on 06/11/2006 14:16:46 Originally by: Ithildin Um, Jim, if you've got a neutron Megathron in the graph, you've got to have an 800mm Tempest - if those are the ships you compare. Add the 800mm 'pest or remove the neutron 'thron. Ive added them to the graphs above now. Thanks. :) --- Eve Wiki \| Eve Tribune \| Eve Pirate
Theron Gyrow Gradient Namtz'aar k'in	Posted - 2006.11.06 14:11:00 - [68] Originally by: Mila Prestoc Originally by: Theron Gyrow Very good. Now add two T2 sieges to Tempest. After neutrons, Mega has 4488.1 grid and 309.5 CPU remaining, after 800mms + sieges, Tempest has 4186.6 grid and 371 CPU remaining, i.e. 300 less grid less but 60 CPU more - and that CPU difference is huge. remember that the Tempest automatically has an invisible wingman that keeps on hitting the Megathron with one heavy cap neutralizer and one heavy nosferatu as long as the Mega is firing its guns and you'll start to have a reasonable view of the 1-vs-1 balance of the ships. You might also want to change Megathron to use Berserker IIs - they're faster and have a new damage type. Please check your statements, cos with your "reasonble" view you've missed lots out and over-exagurated to try to make your point. Your maths sucks. If you use blasters without controlled burst you deserve to run out of cap. Heavy Nos = 8.33 cap/sec Heavy Neut = 20.833 cap/sec Total = 29.163 cap/sec Neutron's use = 16.852 cap/sec Even with 3x T2 damage mods its 22.04 cap/sec That is no where near Neut + Nos. Sure its a factor if the fights lasts minutes, which with 1000dps it would take some tank to do. My math is fine, thank you. If the data in Item database is (still!) outdated and the real cap use is 30% lower, then fine, I'll accept that Mega will only suffer from a heavy neutralizer during the fight. Hardly changes the point, now does it? Originally by: Mila Prestoc Plus what is a Pest supposed to fit after 800mm and Seige? Plates? Yeah cos we already have a fun time trying to keep range when a Mega has same agility and only a small percentage less speed. Why would you worry overmuch about range/transversal? You'll do only a bit less damage with better damage type and you'll win any and all cap contests there are. And of course, if you have a tracking disruptor, you have an autowin. Originally by: Mila Prestoc Situation. Pest see's a Mega 30km away, what does he do? Er, start shooting at him? 800+siege Tempest does over 600 DoT at that range, no way Mega is going to overcome that when he gets close with cap depleted by MWD. Yeah, if Mega wants to run, he can do it, but he could do it anyway (at least if there's anything warpable away from the Tempest). -- NMTZ forum
JoCool Caldari Infinitus Odium	Posted - 2006.11.06 14:14:00 - [69] You don't have 2 Nosferatus for no sacrifice. Get missile launchers if you want more damage. _______________________________________________________________________ Trey Azagthoth > Youre my idol Jocool. I wanna be like Jocool jr. or Jocool the sequel! Oveur > ohnoes jocool
Mila Prestoc	Posted - 2006.11.06 14:20:00 - [70] Originally by: Jim McGregor Edited by: Jim McGregor on 06/11/2006 13:46:24 Mila, your resists come out way higher than the ones I get? When I add 3 EANM II + 15% DC, I end up with going from 60/10/35/35 for the mega, to about 80/55/67/67? And judging from Ithildin, he gets the same...except my tank uses 4 slots. 3 EANM II + DC. Slightly confusing. :) Indeed, I had Invulns setup not EANM Mega with 3x EANM T2 and max comp with +15% DC I get 83/61/72/72. Pest with 2x EANM T2 and max comp with +15% DC I get 85/55/62/67 Corrected Stats Not much difference from what I can tell. ------------------------- Originally by: "Lord Violent" EvE is slowly becoming a game for the stupid, catered to by devs as they lack ability to kill/survive anything.
Ithildin Gallente The Corporation The Corporation Alliance	Posted - 2006.11.06 14:20:00 - [71] Originally by: Jim McGregor Edited by: Jim McGregor on 06/11/2006 14:16:46 Originally by: Ithildin Um, Jim, if you've got a neutron Megathron in the graph, you've got to have an 800mm Tempest - if those are the ships you compare. Add the 800mm 'pest or remove the neutron 'thron. Ive added them to the graphs above now. Thanks. :) Doesn't make too much difference, I know (and noticed), but one of the main things to note is how the Tempest typically has room for better equipment. While it can't really compete with the Megathron in terms of damage, you can fit that tracking disruptor and those energy vampires that the Megathron just can't. Problem is, those modules seldom show up in dps graphs... Now, my alt is nowhere near ready for a Tempest yet, so I can't say for certain how well the Tempest fare compared to my main in Megathron (it'll be a 40 million skillpoint difference, though). - Am I in the coolest alliance or what?
Jim McGregor Caldari	Posted - 2006.11.06 14:23:00 - [72] Edited by: Jim McGregor on 06/11/2006 14:23:55 Originally by: Ithildin Doesn't make too much difference, I know (and noticed), but one of the main things to note is how the Tempest typically has room for better equipment. While it can't really compete with the Megathron in terms of damage, you can fit that tracking disruptor and those energy vampires that the Megathron just can't. Problem is, those modules seldom show up in dps graphs... I agree. The Tempest with a tracking disruptor doesnt really feel subpar to me anymore after doing this thread, and creating all these graphs. But it does need that tracking disruptor so it can avoid more of the damage, and use its speed to stay away from getting webbed. --- Eve Wiki \| Eve Tribune \| Eve Pirate
Jim McGregor Caldari	Posted - 2006.11.06 14:26:00 - [73] Originally by: Mila Prestoc Mega with 3x EANM T2 and max comp with +15% DC I get 83/61/72/72. Pest with 2x EANM T2 and max comp with +15% DC I get 85/55/62/67 Corrected Stats Not much difference from what I can tell. Yeah. You can check out my graphs with the tracking disruptor if you want. It really makes a difference when fighting a megathron. --- Eve Wiki \| Eve Tribune \| Eve Pirate
Dixon Caldari	Posted - 2006.11.06 14:32:00 - [74] Edited by: Dixon on 06/11/2006 14:37:28 Edited by: Dixon on 06/11/2006 14:32:38 Originally by: Jim McGregor Graphs.. yada yada yada Jim, still the king of misleading and biased graphs. d425mms vs neutrons? Originally by: Jim McGregor And its the neutrons that look overpowered here. The electrons look fine. That might have something to do with the fact that you're comparing the lowest tier autocannons with the highest tier blasters. Originally by: Jim McGregor I dont see how you can win vs a mega with that Tempest setup...maybe one that isnt using neutrons. But since neutrons fit just fine with a tank (with a cpu implant), why wouldnt people use it? And its the neutrons that look overpowered here. I understand that you can't see it, as I assume you've never actually flown a AC tempest. I know that null is a huge problem for AC users and it may even need a harder nerf (or remove t2 ammo altogether) but your these graphs and pvp-on-paper isn't going to cover all the fitting variables that come to play - not to mention skill points and player skill. But if two equally skilled pilots should someday meet each other with these cookie-cutter setups I'd put my money on the Blasterthron. But is that wrong? Do you think an Armageddon (yeah, try fitting some MPIIs and a tank on that) would be able to compete with these ships? Are all races supposed to be equals in every scenario? If so then the game is a total failure. EDIT: I added lots of smilies to the post to seem less angry - - - - - - I have no strong feelings one way or the other...
Mila Prestoc	Posted - 2006.11.06 14:33:00 - [75] Originally by: Jim McGregor Originally by: Mila Prestoc Mega with 3x EANM T2 and max comp with +15% DC I get 83/61/72/72. Pest with 2x EANM T2 and max comp with +15% DC I get 85/55/62/67 Corrected Stats Not much difference from what I can tell. Yeah. You can check out my graphs with the tracking disruptor if you want. It really makes a difference when fighting a megathron. Indeed, but its just down to that tracking disruptor that gives the Pest a chance. It is trying to correct the problem of Null's range. ------------------------- Originally by: "Lord Violent" EvE is slowly becoming a game for the stupid, catered to by devs as they lack ability to kill/survive anything.
Jim McGregor Caldari	Posted - 2006.11.06 14:34:00 - [76] Dixon, no need to get all angry. Ithildin asked me to include 800's in the graph, so I did. Thats all you would need to do too. Just ask. And as you can see, the Tempest does pretty good when using a tracking disruptor. --- Eve Wiki \| Eve Tribune \| Eve Pirate
Jim McGregor Caldari	Posted - 2006.11.06 14:36:00 - [77] Originally by: Mila Prestoc Indeed, but its just down to that tracking disruptor that gives the Pest a chance. It is trying to correct the problem of Null's range. Thats what I set out to do as well with this thread... and I still think its range is silly. And until they change it, I think that tracking disruptor is the way to survive against megathrons. At least it improves the odds. --- Eve Wiki \| Eve Tribune \| Eve Pirate
Dixon Caldari	Posted - 2006.11.06 14:38:00 - [78] Originally by: Jim McGregor Dixon, no need to get all angry. Ithildin asked me to include 800's in the graph, so I did. Thats all you would need to do too. Just ask. And as you can see, the Tempest does pretty good when using a tracking disruptor. I'm not angry, I'm just caldari. - - - - - - I have no strong feelings one way or the other...
Jim McGregor Caldari	Posted - 2006.11.06 14:39:00 - [79] Originally by: Dixon Originally by: Jim McGregor Dixon, no need to get all angry. Ithildin asked me to include 800's in the graph, so I did. Thats all you would need to do too. Just ask. And as you can see, the Tempest does pretty good when using a tracking disruptor. I'm not angry, I'm just caldari. Not sure if thats better or worse... --- Eve Wiki \| Eve Tribune \| Eve Pirate
Ithildin Gallente The Corporation The Corporation Alliance	Posted - 2006.11.06 14:40:00 - [80] If you reduce range on Null, you'll have to come up with a new benefit for it. That said, T2 ammo over all is pretty ****e in terms of game balance and concept and needs be redone completely. - Am I in the coolest alliance or what?
Nyxus GALAXIAN Rule of Three	Posted - 2006.11.06 15:49:00 - [81] Originally by: Jim McGregor Edited by: Jim McGregor on 06/11/2006 14:23:55 Originally by: Ithildin Doesn't make too much difference, I know (and noticed), but one of the main things to note is how the Tempest typically has room for better equipment. While it can't really compete with the Megathron in terms of damage, you can fit that tracking disruptor and those energy vampires that the Megathron just can't. Problem is, those modules seldom show up in dps graphs... I agree. The Tempest with a tracking disruptor doesnt really feel subpar to me anymore after doing this thread, and creating all these graphs. But it does need that tracking disruptor so it can avoid more of the damage, and use its speed to stay away from getting webbed. Can my geddon get another midslot so Amarr can use a TD as well? Wtf is this, Team Minmatar is supposed to be helping the Amarr Overlords against the Gallente Pwnzors. Traitors everywhere!! All kidding aside......what about Amarr. And ironically enough, the TD is more effective against Amarr than any other racial ship and it's our own EW. Maybe painters should make the sig of Matari 30% higher than any other comparable ship. And Caldari should have half the sensor strength of any other race. Hmmm.....I kinda like that last one. Nyxus It's great being Amarr, ain't it?Ö Originally by: Tuxford I love how you guys can take stats from a test server that is few months out of date and then panic over them. Gee, wonder why..
Lubomir Penev Gallente Dark Nexxus	Posted - 2006.11.09 13:33:00 - [82] Originally by: Nyxus Can my geddon get another midslot so Amarr can use a TD as well? Wtf is this, Team Minmatar is supposed to be helping the Amarr Overlords against the Gallente Pwnzors. Traitors everywhere!! You got 50 m3 more drone bay than a Tempest, make that 2 Praetor td-900... They have the added advantage of costing less to lose than a T2 heavy ;-)
Kunming Amarr adeptus gattacus Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2006.11.09 15:37:00 - [83] What we see here is an "over-nerf" IMO, if the problem is between megathron and tempest why do the med and small null ammo also gets nerfed. I never saw a vaga pilot complaining about the deimos, if its a problem on BS lvl keep it there and stop nerfing already gimp ships..
webkert Amarr Cutting Edge Incorporated RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2006.11.09 16:05:00 - [84] Originally by: Kunming What we see here is an "over-nerf" IMO, if the problem is between megathron and tempest why do the med and small null ammo also gets nerfed. I never saw a vaga pilot complaining about the deimos, if its a problem on BS lvl keep it there and stop nerfing already gimp ships.. Why would it be an over nerf? Null will still have the same range as conflag, with 60% better tracking and slightly lower dps. The deimos being crap has nothing to do with t2 ammo.

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