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Pattern Clarc
The Priory
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Posted - 2006.11.06 12:27:00 -
[31]
People don't get it.
We can adapt fine by just flying other ships.
It's just that now the concept of a blasterboat just doesn't make any sence.
It's a shame though, as it was a very fun way to fight...
RIP DEIMOS, BLASTERTHRON, HYPERION
Sig removed lacks EVE content, email [email protected] if you have any questions - Xorus |
Joshua Foiritain
Gallente
Coreli Corporation
Corelum Syndicate
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Posted - 2006.11.06 12:29:00 -
[32]
 Originally by: Inairin
That's plain stupid to fit on a speed dependant ship. Do you fit full rack damage mods when you need armor tank too? It seems to me like you try so very hard to use setups that may seem viabel at first but actually are very stupid to fit in the attempts to create a problem that is nonexistant.
All armor related rigs reduce speed.
All speed related rigs reduce armor.
All hyrbrid related rigs accept either CPU or PG.
My Blasterthron has exactly 0 cpu left and something like 50 pg, so none of the above rigs are going to be usefull for me.
As for the ammo changes, i couldnt care less because ill adapt to that, 7% damage loss isnt much anyway.
The thing that will kill blasters is the increased hp on all ships while cap boosters arent changed. Especially with rigs PVP is going to become a tanking game again, a game blasters ships werent good at playing and will now be unable to play, simply because well run out of cap boosters during the fights.
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[Coreli Corporation Mainframe] |
Alex SOKOLOFF
Rage of Angels
Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2006.11.06 13:59:00 -
[33]
Hyperion is just another ship. Its not Megathron.
I dont have t2 large guns on test server. So i went against Maelstorm with nest named electrons and amtimatter with dual rep tank. Took me ages to break its tank. Then i fitted ions with 2 mag stabs. Was really easy to kill it with them.
5th med slot is for tracking disruptor on Hyperion.
Though Cap is real problem. We really need reduce of Cap Boosters size.
And some more cap to all ships.
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Zhull
Republic Military School
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Posted - 2006.11.06 15:12:00 -
[34]
Edited by: Zhull on 06/11/2006 15:17:38
Edited by: Zhull on 06/11/2006 15:13:41
Originally by: Alex SOKOLOFF
Hyperion is just another ship. Its not Megathron.
I dont have t2 large guns on test server. So i went against Maelstorm with nest named electrons and amtimatter with dual rep tank. Took me ages to break its tank. Then i fitted ions with 2 mag stabs. Was really easy to kill it with them.
5th med slot is for tracking disruptor on Hyperion.
Though Cap is real problem. We really need reduce of Cap Boosters size.
And some more cap to all ships.
My experience is that if you don't have perfect skills you just die horribly against anything that has one or two NOS.
I have good cap and tanking skills, gallente BS 5 and average gunnery skills.
I tried different Hyperion configurations and i allways died very fast. The fact that you are trying to run 8 blasters and one of two reppers at the same time makes you extremely vulnerable to NOS, even when using a heavy injector.
The disruptor is only marginally helpfull as you need to keep your target still and close to you to be able to hit it with your blasters.
Also, moving the extra mid to a low slot would help it tank a lot better or make a lot more damage, but it would be a crippled Megatrhon.
Another solution could be removing one or two hardpoints and giving it a bigger damage bonus to compensate. That would give us some room to have our own NOS.
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Jim McGregor
Caldari
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Posted - 2006.11.06 15:59:00 -
[35]
The tracking nerf is to make sure you web the target before you can hit it. But thats all in theory. In reality you will still hit just fine. I recently made a thread about the megathron and the tempest here, where you can see how your belowed null still pwns autocannons in the entire warp disruptor range even with the tracking nerf. Tempest have to use a tracking disruptor to have a chance, but thats fine.
As for void getting -75% tracking, it wont matter. Didnt you web the target before? Tracking doesnt matter when you have the target webbed. And the range of void is just inside webrange anyway, so whats the big deal?
You say you want your blasterthrons to live and die on the ability to kill the opponent before your cap runs out. Well, now you might have difficulties. Isnt that kind of balanced? Or is it only balanced when you kill the opponent before your cap runs out? What role does the other guy has in it, if its all about your cap? He certainly cant tank your damage for long.
If you have cap problems, why dont you use more nosferatus instead of guns, just like the rest of us do? It can be extreamly effective. The cyclone with its 3 nos and 5 guns have no problems tanking even the Brutix, because of all the cap its getting until the brutix is dead.
Maybe you need to adapt and not fit all guns and cry when your cap runs out?
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Eve Wiki | Eve Tribune | Eve Pirate |
Stribog
Caldari
Celestial Fleet
Ascendant Frontier
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Posted - 2006.11.06 17:33:00 -
[36]
Originally by: Pattern Clarc
RIP DEIMOS, BLASTERTHRON, HYPERION
And Astarte, and Eos.. and in some ways Ishtar (no more EW).
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Pattern Clarc
The Priory
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Posted - 2006.11.06 20:48:00 -
[37]
Edited by: Pattern Clarc on 06/11/2006 20:49:58
Originally by: Jim McGregor
The tracking nerf is to make sure you web the target before you can hit it. But thats all in theory. In reality you will still hit just fine. I recently made a thread about the megathron and the tempest here, where you can see how your belowed null still pwns autocannons in the entire warp disruptor range even with the tracking nerf. Tempest have to use a tracking disruptor to have a chance, but thats fine.
As for void getting -75% tracking, it wont matter. Didnt you web the target before? Tracking doesnt matter when you have the target webbed. And the range of void is just inside webrange anyway, so whats the big deal?
You say you want your blasterthrons to live and die on the ability to kill the opponent before your cap runs out. Well, now you might have difficulties. Isnt that kind of balanced? Or is it only balanced when you kill the opponent before your cap runs out? What role does the other guy has in it, if its all about your cap? He certainly cant tank your damage for long.
If you have cap problems, why dont you use more nosferatus instead of guns, just like the rest of us do? It can be extreamly effective. The cyclone with its 3 nos and 5 guns have no problems tanking even the Brutix, because of all the cap its getting until the brutix is dead.
Maybe you need to adapt and not fit all guns and cry when your cap runs out?
Imagine if the vagabonds speed got nerfed... Or, all ships suddenly where 50% faster...
The Gallente damage is exactly the same as the matari speed advantage.
It keeps us alive with regard to our downfalls in some areas.
Without it, both are next to useless.
Sig removed lacks EVE content, email [email protected] if you have any questions - Xorus |
Wrayth Osu
Caldari
Intergalactic House of Pi
Distant Star Alliance
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Posted - 2006.11.06 21:22:00 -
[38]
Originally by: murder one
I don't want to be able to tank better than the existing Mega. I want to be able to KILL FASTER. A LOT FASTER. I want to be able to kill something so fast ...
This is really the relevant issue that you need to discuss, all this discussion over kits / rigs, etc, is irrelavent, the point is, CCP wants battles to last longer, as such, your dreams of insta-ganks are just that dreams.. that's the opposite of what CCP wants for the game. I can't find a reference atm, but when CCP first anounced this change, it was in the context of them wanting PvP fight's to last longer and not be over in 10 seconds.
____________________________________________________________________
Wrayth - "These are not the carebears you are looking for."
Pirate - "These are not the carebears we are looking for." |
infraX
Caldari
Finite Horizon
The Red Skull
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Posted - 2006.11.07 00:43:00 -
[39]
I got on sisi today for the first time and tested out various setups on different ships. Tbh the OP is right, the blasterthron runs into cap problems before it can kill anything and then just sits there with no cap while the enemy picks it apart.
I feel even more sorry for Amarr spec characters, and mine will sit gathering dust in a station somewhere for a while because laser battleships have it even worse.
The hyperion is a pile of **** because it has less grid, has to fit one extra gun, loses tracking bonus and has one less low slot to tank with and that armour rep bonus does NOT make up for it. The extra mid is nice but not essential to a blaster ship. Oh and I thought it was meant to be faster and more agile than a mega? It's not noticeable at all, not like they were bigging it up to be. Comeplete waste of time in its current state.
Kali is a NOS fest. We are back to 'cap is life' where lots of NOS, low damage/high tank setups are king. I'll probably stick to a dominix for a while....
Oh and ffs nerf the drake, I've got 900k in missile skills and most of my shield tanking skills are level 4 (using T1 hardeners) apart from shield operation and I made a 2003 harbinger pilot packing a full T2 setup and high grade slave implant set run away. It's obviously overpowered if it performs that well for me!
Sorry to run off on a tangent, but that's my two pennies of Kali so far for those of you who haven't managed to get on test yourselves.
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infraX
Caldari
Finite Horizon
The Red Skull
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Posted - 2006.11.07 00:48:00 -
[40]
Originally by: Wrayth Osu
Originally by: murder one
I don't want to be able to tank better than the existing Mega. I want to be able to KILL FASTER. A LOT FASTER. I want to be able to kill something so fast ...
This is really the relevant issue that you need to discuss, all this discussion over kits / rigs, etc, is irrelavent, the point is, CCP wants battles to last longer, as such, your dreams of insta-ganks are just that dreams.. that's the opposite of what CCP wants for the game. I can't find a reference atm, but when CCP first anounced this change, it was in the context of them wanting PvP fight's to last longer and not be over in 10 seconds.
Well they need to redesign a couple of weapons systems if that's their intention. Blasters and Lasers are designed to be very cap hungry but dish out tons of dps to make up for it. They are DESIGNED to deliver a large punch in a very short amount of time. CCP can't have weapons like this in game if they want all fights to be drawn out.
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Kior'D
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Posted - 2006.11.07 03:07:00 -
[41]
Edited by: Kior''D on 07/11/2006 03:09:27
Originally by: murder one
Are the devs just trying to kill blasterthrons all together? The ONLY thing that makes these ships work is DPS. Kill the target before you run out of cap. Anything else just breaks the design of the ship.
Better tanking while doing DPS doesn't work. It's not a question if I can out tank the target. It's a question of if I can kill him before I run out of cap. And YES, this is assuming I'm using a heavy cap injector, and on top of that, I use a large secure can to maximize the number of charges I can carry (19 800s plus four in the injector itself).
The Mega get's quite a bit of it's DPS from it's drones. This is cap-free DPS. The Hyperion with one more gun and one less drone not only ends up doing LESS DPS than the Mega given equal drone/gun skills (due to the sh#tty grid of the Hyperion) but it consumes more cap in doing so.
A 50% increase in HP doesn't just increase the combat time 50%. It's more like 100-150% increase in combat time, as the extra 50% armor allows for the enemies' reps to cycle a few more times as well. This, coupled with the 7% damage reduction to Void, PLUS the reduction in tracking (WTF?!? SEVENTY FIVE PERCENT REDUCTION?!?! ARE YOU CRAZY?!?) makes for a SEVERELY reduced actual effectiveness when it comes to real combat situations. You have to be dead still at your optimal range to even begin hitting the target, and even then you're going to be doing 7% less damage across the board, and have to chew through 50% more base HP (that is hardened as well) in addition to having to overcome all the extra rep cycles that the additional HP allow the target to run.
Every BS vs. BS fight I have fought on test has come down to how many cap boosters are left. With the Hyperion I can tank the enemy BS, but I can't break it's tank, and simply run out of cap charges, then I die. With the Megathron, I can't tank the enemy DPS long enough before I can kill the enemy ship because I don't have enough DPS myself vs. how little tank I have.
All of this combat is without rigs, on either side. Once rigs come into play it will be even worse. There are NO rigs that are available for the Mega/Hyperion that don't have such severe drawbacks that they are of any real use. The Hype doesn't have enough grid to use any of the damage mod rigs. Using *any* of the armor buff rigs totally *RUINS* the ship's speed. They're already increadably slow as it is and 10% speed nerf per rig is just too much.
Shield buff rigs get an increase to sig radius. LOL? Sig radius? Who cares? On anything it's going to matter, the rigs won't be used (inties) and on anything you'd want to use these shield buff rigs on (BCs, BS) it won't matter in the least. The ONE ship design that could benefit from armor rigs the most (blasterthrons) is crippled by a velocity nerf. GG CCP.
Unless the rigs are designed so that you can get full benefit from 3x damage mods *and* 3x damage rigs (instead of them acting as 6x damage mods would currently) I really see little use for any of the hybrid rigs in their current design. Most of the rest of the rigs are either decent or really good.
The cost/benefit for the other types of hybrid rigs (tracking/cap use/range etc.) are in NO WAY worth the penalties they incur with respect to grid requirements etc. to waste my time on. With battleships Tracking/Optimal generally don't account for much, and 10% less cap use won't account for much either, not when I'm losing 10% more grid space per gun. Optimal range? Who cares? I get an extra 250m of optimal on my blasters for 10% gun grid? Brilliant.
oh my  oh my
The main aim of the dev's changes (in Kali) to the combat paradigm in eve is to increase the combat length giving pilots more time to react during combat. Also this allows them to add stuff like sub-system targeting and weapon overloading.
also your setups are are so RMR, you seem to DPS obsessed 
try a few cap rechargers, drop the inject and the scam
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murder one
Gallente
CRICE Corporation
Lotka Volterra
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Posted - 2006.11.07 06:04:00 -
[42]
Quote:
oh my oh my
The main aim of the dev's changes (in Kali) to the combat paradigm in eve is to increase the combat length giving pilots more time to react during combat. Also this allows them to add stuff like sub-system targeting and weapon overloading.
also your setups are are so RMR, you seem to DPS obsessed
try a few cap rechargers, drop the inject and the scam
Surely you're just trolling? Right?
Because I said so...
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voidvim
Minmatar
Genco
Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate
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Posted - 2006.11.07 14:15:00 -
[43]
Originally by: murder one
Quote:
oh my oh my
The main aim of the dev's changes (in Kali) to the combat paradigm in eve is to increase the combat length giving pilots more time to react during combat. Also this allows them to add stuff like sub-system targeting and weapon overloading.
also your setups are are so RMR, you seem to DPS obsessed
try a few cap rechargers, drop the inject and the scam
Surely you're just trolling? Right?
nope  it's just can feel the emotion in your post and how ****ed you are.
Just pointing out that the changes are the first part of a whole set of changes. I think your setup will be good again when you overload your blasters doing a huge amount of damage to your prays main sub light drive thrusters. Thus rendering them with out direct directional control then take them apart sub system by sub system.
also have you look at the rigg that adds a bonus web drones, web stength.
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Joshua Foiritain
Gallente
Coreli Corporation
Corelum Syndicate
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Posted - 2006.11.07 14:27:00 -
[44]
Originally by: Kior'D
try a few cap try a few cap rechargers, drop the inject and the scam
Rofl... Youve never PVPed with a blaster ship have you?
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[Coreli Corporation Mainframe] |
Jim McGregor
Caldari
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Posted - 2006.11.07 14:33:00 -
[45]
Originally by: infraX
Oh and ffs nerf the drake, I've got 900k in missile skills and most of my shield tanking skills are level 4 (using T1 hardeners) apart from shield operation and I made a 2003 harbinger pilot packing a full T2 setup and high grade slave implant set run away. It's obviously overpowered if it performs that well for me!
I got free Heavy Assault missiles V and specialization V on sisi. You probably have it too if you check your skill list.
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Eve Wiki | Eve Tribune | Eve Pirate |
Jim McGregor
Caldari
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Posted - 2006.11.07 14:34:00 -
[46]
Still cant understand why there is something wrong with gallente having to nos people to survive. The rest of us have done it for ages.
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Eve Wiki | Eve Tribune | Eve Pirate |
voidvim
Minmatar
Genco
Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate
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Posted - 2006.11.07 14:59:00 -
[47]
Originally by: Joshua Foiritain
Eeemm... how are we supposed to kill these none existant sub systems if we lack to the cap to even fire all weapons? Firing t2 large hybrids is like nosfing yourself with 2/3 heavy nosf and thats not even counting mwding to your target and running dual large reps.
So yeah... fitting a cap recharger should work... 
As we both know weapon overloading and sub-system targeting are not in game yet and might not be for a while. But increaing combat length is the foundation for them and ccp will take too stock of the changes to under stand their effect befor introducing them. IT might have been better for ccp too have wait until all the other kali stuff has been add and test, then increase combat length while added no combat dynamics.
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Herculite
Hunters Agency
Firmus Ixion
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Posted - 2006.11.07 21:43:00 -
[48]
Originally by: Jim McGregor
Still cant understand why there is something wrong with gallente having to nos people to survive. The rest of us have done it for ages.
Eh?
So we both have a NOS, bfd, nothing in the argument changes. Gal/Amarr run out of cap trying to take down tanks the game was never meant to support and have been thought out in a poor fashion, and then die due to lack of cap, while the projectile/missles fire on, and can use passive tanked shields to boot.
Great.
I won't even get into the rig issues.
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Gordon Red
SteelVipers
YouWhat
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Posted - 2006.11.07 22:35:00 -
[49]
Edited by: Gordon Red on 07/11/2006 22:42:22
I see the meds full of T2-batteries and the lows of cap. power relays. 
Seriously I think the hole ship-setups will look more balanced with Kali and they have to try to minimize the ship's weeknesses and not to maximize their strenghts.
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murder one
Gallente
CRICE Corporation
Lotka Volterra
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Posted - 2006.11.07 23:00:00 -
[50]
Originally by: Gordon Red
Edited by: Gordon Red on 07/11/2006 22:42:22
I see the meds full of T2-batteries and the lows of cap. power relays.
Seriously I think the hole ship-setups will look more balanced with Kali and they have to try to minimize the ship's weeknesses and not to maximize their strenghts.
I see shis with wasted mids/lows that are going to die horribly to nos/neut.
Because I said so...
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Gordon Red
SteelVipers
YouWhat
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Posted - 2006.11.07 23:08:00 -
[51]
Perhaps more reading and less trolling would help you...
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Herculite
Hunters Agency
Firmus Ixion
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Posted - 2006.11.07 23:36:00 -
[52]
Originally by: Gordon Red
Edited by: Gordon Red on 07/11/2006 22:42:22
I see the meds full of T2-batteries and the lows of cap. power relays.
Seriously I think the hole ship-setups will look more balanced with Kali and they have to try to minimize the ship's weeknesses and not to maximize their strenghts.
Oh I see.
So what is the Caldari weakness again?
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murder one
Gallente
CRICE Corporation
Lotka Volterra
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Posted - 2006.11.08 00:14:00 -
[53]
Myrmidon with 5x nos and 1x neut (all medium) = LOL. I think I could solo a Mega/Hyperion with this. It's not that the Myrmidon is that good (it isn't), it's that the game is THAT unbalanced with respect to nos/neuts and armor and how underpowered/inefficient blasters are.
Because I said so...
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LiBraga
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Posted - 2006.11.08 00:35:00 -
[54]
Your not going to like this response......
One of the main points of Kali was to introduce roles to combat pilots.
Just becuase things have changed doesn't mean you should whine about it.
Instead, experiment and adapt.
Find the megathrons new role. You never know. It could be better.
Progress can only happen through change.
(OMG... my Torp, EW and Recon skills are wasted, oh well, atleast I can now use my gunnery)
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murder one
Gallente
CRICE Corporation
Lotka Volterra
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Posted - 2006.11.08 00:46:00 -
[55]
Originally by: LiBraga
Your not going to like this response......
One of the main points of Kali was to introduce roles to combat pilots.
Just becuase things have changed doesn't mean you should whine about it.
Instead, experiment and adapt.
Find the megathrons new role. You never know. It could be better.
Progress can only happen through change.
(OMG... my Torp, EW and Recon skills are wasted, oh well, atleast I can now use my gunnery)
lol? the mega doesn't have a role. neither does the hype. anything either of the two ships can do, another ship can do it much better. come up with something in pvp that the mega/hype can do that something else doesn't just walk all over it doing the same job.
Because I said so...
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Herculite
Hunters Agency
Firmus Ixion
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Posted - 2006.11.08 00:47:00 -
[56]
Originally by: LiBraga
Your not going to like this response......
One of the main points of Kali was to introduce roles to combat pilots.
Just becuase things have changed doesn't mean you should whine about it.
Instead, experiment and adapt.
Find the megathrons new role. You never know. It could be better.
Progress can only happen through change.
(OMG... my Torp, EW and Recon skills are wasted, oh well, atleast I can now use my gunnery)
Lets see, megathrons role.....
4 mid slots, 7 low slots, lots of turrets, thats a pretty basic role.
All other roles are better served by a domi which can have a much better tank and use drones for dps.
Megathron will HAVE no role cept for ratting, but a raven is better there too.
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murder one
Gallente
CRICE Corporation
Lotka Volterra
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Posted - 2006.11.08 00:50:00 -
[57]
Originally by: Herculite
Originally by: LiBraga
Your not going to like this response......
One of the main points of Kali was to introduce roles to combat pilots.
Just becuase things have changed doesn't mean you should whine about it.
Instead, experiment and adapt.
Find the megathrons new role. You never know. It could be better.
Progress can only happen through change.
(OMG... my Torp, EW and Recon skills are wasted, oh well, atleast I can now use my gunnery)
Lets see, megathrons role.....
4 mid slots, 7 low slots, lots of turrets, thats a pretty basic role.
All other roles are better served by a domi which can have a much better tank and use drones for dps.
Megathron will HAVE no role cept for ratting, but a raven is better there too.
I can rat better in a domi :)
Because I said so...
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