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Vengarioth Skullshanks Minmatar Vril Werke Pirate Coalition	Posted - 2006.11.07 19:57:00 - [31] Edited by: Vengarioth Skullshanks on 07/11/2006 20:00:57 I'm all for warp to zero. It hopefully solves performance issues and hardly breaks current game mechanics. Though i have to agree with Avon. It's the FIRST posting i read concerning this matter with a valid point against warp to 0. Currently you warp to a celestial that isn't inline so that you won't land inside of the bubble. Downside is that you have to aproach the gate because most of the time you won't have an appropriate Bm. With small ships like ceptors this means nothing. You can happily bust every gatecamp. With warp to 0 this will be getting even easier. Even cruisers will have good chances to get away. (Depends all on the tacklers) On the other hand Battleships should be easy to tackle on the other side of the gate if they dare to bust the camp. So traveling will be a little easier in 0.0. and good tacklers will be even more important. Originally by: Fortior I'm not sure how many of you have actually seen this, but I've seen reports on Large Warp Bubbles being on SiSi. I hear they're huge.... Warp to 0 from any angle won't be a problem for 0.0 defenders. Those suckers will suck in anything from any angle. Interesting, would be cool if they finally made it on TQ.
Captain Raynor Caldari	Posted - 2006.11.07 20:07:00 - [32] I'm more for removing instas all together and forcing people to go the whole 'grueling' 15km to a gate. Obviously CCP had two choices, Warp to 0KM or remove instas completely. They took the "safe" choice, letting people technically keep their instas while taking a load off the server. They could just remove instas all together and force people into slower and more vulnerable travel, but that might cost them players who would rather not play EVE than be subjected to that. I'm thinking that the removal of instas, a complete bookmark wipe for all players, only having the ability to mark static objects (station, jumpgate, ect), having a 'bubble' around stations and gates making 15km the minimal warp in distance is the way to go. Instas are just stupid, the game was never designed for it. The 15km warp in distance is there for a reason. I'm glad CCP is doing something about instas and the server load issues they cause because yes something has to be done.. but I don't know if removing bookmarked instas and putting them built into the right-click menu is a better option than getting rid of instas all together and making navigating around in EVE the way it was originally intended. ===================
Zoxia Gallente University of Caille	Posted - 2006.11.07 20:10:00 - [33] I love the change and think they should go even further and put a skills system in place with bookmarks and limit them like they do corp members with leadership. Limit Book Marks HERE!!!
Max Teranous Body Count Inc. Mercenary Coalition	Posted - 2006.11.08 09:37:00 - [34] I don't think anyone answered Ithildin's final question - which i think the number 1 reason people quit eve is travel times. Max --------------------
murder one Gallente CRICE Corporation Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2006.11.08 10:02:00 - [35] Originally by: Butter Dog its an overwhemlingly popular change Um, no it's not. From all the fuss I'm hearing, it's universally hated. How's that for a perspective? How about CCP just removes all BMs within 120km of gates? Solves the GTG insta problem right there. Puts Eve back where it was before there was such an exploit as gate instas. It's an EXPLOIT people. Gate instas are a work around to circumvent a game design element. Hence it's an exploit. They should just be removed period. Because I said so...
DragonOfTheArmory FW Inc	Posted - 2006.11.08 10:20:00 - [36] Originally by: murder one It's an EXPLOIT people. Gate instas are a work around to circumvent a game design element. Hence it's an exploit. They should just be removed period. @ murder one: If the gate instas are an exploit, then that opens the doors up for more than just gate instas to be called exploits. My thought on this whole warp to 0 thing: - The gate to gate "Warp to 0m" thing is a nice idea, but it should just be gate to gate, not gate to another object, or even go so far as station to gate. -When Kali goes live on TQ, go through the data base that holds the bookmarks. Each gate or celestrial object has an x-y-z coordinate with it. If it falls within a set distance from the center of a set object, or is from a point to a point, such as gate to gate, delete it. Leave the safe spots alone. That would not be fair for those in 0.0 that have spent the time and have gone through the trial by fire to have their safespots killed off. Same with tactical ones for snip spots and prepositing things for pirates, gate camps, etc etc. - Set a restriction/more restrictions on the copy of bookmarks. Make it so that you can't do stuff like leave station with them in your cargo hold or copy and do a jet can with bookmarks in them. Similiar thing was done when they changed what could have missile launchers on them (i.e. BB's with the cruise launchers). DragonOfTheArmory FW Inc.
Pitt Gallente Loot	Posted - 2006.11.08 11:36:00 - [37] I'm with avon on this one, if it makes it to tq it's simply ccp dumbing down EVE again. It makes your ship/ship-setup almost meaningless, the very problem with insta's. Bs's warp to 0 and jump as well as a frig kitted for speed, so where's the reason for fitting your ship for speed? I know that the dev's are only looking at the two options, remove insta's with no warp to 0km or with warp to 0km. But, what's wrong with a comprimise here. Take the middle ground for once ccp. Remove bm's from 150km around gates and stations, and have ships warp to 5km? It makes ship fittings important and diverse, increase's travel times compared to insta's yet decrease's travel time compared to 15km, and almost all of the things that avon state's in his post (regional markets etc..). Neither side will be 100% happy with a change like this, yet both sides could learn to live with it. I have a ton of thoughts on this and have posted them several times, so I'll stop here. CCP just remember the game you wanted to make when you first started EVE. EVE is what it is *because* it's difficult. It's a challenge. Warp to 0km just takes some of that away and makes it more like every other game out there. *How many must die in the name of God before the Devil is satisfied*
Galimiy Portret Eye of God Axiom Empire	Posted - 2006.11.08 12:12:00 - [38] Say YES to the "Warp to 0" concept!
murder one Gallente CRICE Corporation Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2006.11.08 12:19:00 - [39] Originally by: Galimiy Portret Say YES to the "Warp to 0" concept! no? lol? Because I said so...
Jim McGregor Caldari	Posted - 2006.11.08 12:31:00 - [40] Originally by: murder one Originally by: Butter Dog its an overwhemlingly popular change Um, no it's not. From all the fuss I'm hearing, it's universally hated. How's that for a perspective? How about CCP just removes all BMs within 120km of gates? Solves the GTG insta problem right there. Puts Eve back where it was before there was such an exploit as gate instas. It's an EXPLOIT people. Gate instas are a work around to circumvent a game design element. Hence it's an exploit. They should just be removed period. No, its very popular. Maybe you didnt read all the 16 pages in the thread about it being on the test server, or maybe you have Selective Reading V trained, but it IS a popular change and probably 90-95% are looking forward to it according to the replies in that thread. Of course now people who DONT like it are starting lots of new threads about it, making it APPEAR as many people dont like it just because there is many threads. Happy people dont create threads with "Im happy" most of the time. --- Eve Wiki \| Eve Tribune \| Eve Pirate

murder one Gallente CRICE Corporation Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2006.11.08 12:36:00 - [41] Originally by: Jim McGregor Originally by: murder one Originally by: Butter Dog its an overwhemlingly popular change Um, no it's not. From all the fuss I'm hearing, it's universally hated. How's that for a perspective? How about CCP just removes all BMs within 120km of gates? Solves the GTG insta problem right there. Puts Eve back where it was before there was such an exploit as gate instas. It's an EXPLOIT people. Gate instas are a work around to circumvent a game design element. Hence it's an exploit. They should just be removed period. No, its very popular. Maybe you didnt read all the 16 pages in the thread about it being on the test server, or maybe you have Selective Reading V trained, but it IS a popular change and probably 90-95% are looking forward to it according to the replies in that thread. Of course now people who DONT like it are starting lots of new threads about it, making it APPEAR as many people dont like it just because there is many threads. Happy people dont create threads with "Im happy" most of the time. exactly. there are plenty of people who dont like it. hence they're making threads about it. why not just sack up and remove all instas within 120km of the gates? no more lag, no warp to 0. solves both problems. Because I said so...
Queen Hades	Posted - 2006.11.08 12:40:00 - [42] "Warp to 0" -> Gate bullying (Egghelende and the like) will be removed from the game -> More people in low sec @ belts -> real pvp instead of noob grinding money printing for griefers. Really, I don't lie, it was the gate instaganking why I was afraid of low sec so much during my first months. The belt pirates are even more an encouragement to go to low sec (because they make the game spicey, the gate griefers only make it dull and are a meaningless obstacle ) - I would even say that many noobs would like to have a real pvp playground instead of gank central. I bet we will see low sec systems filled with people, fertilizing the belts and therefore a new dawn for piracy (and antipiracy of course - which is only fair!) as well. "Pirate" Coalition will have to adapt - as did I.
Jim McGregor Caldari	Posted - 2006.11.08 12:46:00 - [43] Originally by: murder one exactly. there are plenty of people who dont like it. hence they're making threads about it. why not just sack up and remove all instas within 120km of the gates? no more lag, no warp to 0. solves both problems. It would have the added effect of lots of people not thinking Eve is fun anymore as well. Why do you think so many people pay 30 mill per region to get instas? Its because they cant stand the slow travelling. If you dont move around a lot, or play Eve all day long, then I can see why you wont mind spending all that time travelling. But for the ones who have jobs or family or whatever, and only play a few hours every day, they dont want to spend half that time sitting in front of gates or stations, moving slowly towards it. And the arguments against this change doesnt make sense to me. Even the people who DONT have instas today WILL get instas when they have been ganked a few times. Its cheap and easy to get them. So in my mind, im just comparing a Eve where most people have instas to a Eve where Warp to 0 is implemented, and I see only good things from Warp to 0, since it improves the cluster performance a lot. --- Eve Wiki \| Eve Tribune \| Eve Pirate
BigWhale Gallente	Posted - 2006.11.08 13:13:00 - [44] Why do I like the 0m Warp-in on test cluster? Simply, because I really hate gate campers. The Coward's way of fighting... Let's outnumber and outgun poor sucker and kill it. Wow, this one is too strong for us? OMG!! Flee!!!!11oneoneone... :P Really, that is the idea of PvP some people have. From this perspective Warp To 0m is ok. Maybe more people will start roaming thru low-sec empire. I know I will.
murder one Gallente CRICE Corporation Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2006.11.08 13:16:00 - [45] Originally by: Queen Hades "Warp to 0" -> Gate bullying (Egghelende and the like) will be removed from the game -> More people in low sec @ belts -> real pvp instead of noob grinding money printing for griefers. Really, I don't lie, it was the gate instaganking why I was afraid of low sec so much during my first months. The belt pirates are even more an encouragement to go to low sec (because they make the game spicey, the gate griefers only make it dull and are a meaningless obstacle ) - I would even say that many noobs would like to have a real pvp playground instead of gank central. I bet we will see low sec systems filled with people, fertilizing the belts and therefore a new dawn for piracy (and antipiracy of course - which is only fair!) as well. "Pirate" Coalition will have to adapt - as did I. LOL. People don't 'go to belts'. Let me give you an example of a typical day for me: I sit around in one of a few home systems and watch as people jump into the system, and either warp straight to the stations, or off to a mission. And then they warp back to the gate. And then they leave. Period. Gate Station Gate Station Gate Mission Gate Station. All day long. Some of them go to a safespot when they're all tired out from jumping from station to gate sometimes, but most of the time they're either docked, at the gate on their way out, or on a mission. There are PLENTY of people in low sec. It's just that they always hug the stations/gates or are running missions. Missions arn't in belts where we can kill the mission runners. They're not at planets. HELL, they're not even on the same PLAIN AS THE SYSTEM so they can be probed out and killed. This is why I kill people at gates and stations. Because it's the only opportunity I get 99% of the time. Players don't have a reason to go into the belts. The rats suck, the minerals suck. And they know that if they give me 30 seconds to a minute to find them and I happen to warp in on them within 20km and they're not aligned and they dont have stabs (lots of ands here, ya?) and I happen to lock them fast enough, then they're dead 99% of the time. As long as I can get that single point that I need to hold them there, I pretty much kill every target I come across from frigs to battleships. If I don't kill something, it's because I either couldn't get in range fast enough, or because they were stabbed to hell and back. Not because I had to warp out, not because they killed me. Until 100% of missions are run in belts, warp to 0 needs to go away. Because I said so...
Akita T Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2006.11.08 13:47:00 - [46] And for the Nth time, THIS is a much better alternative yet nobody even comments on it in here. _____ -sig- This is my only char. These are my skills Always question everything, including yourself
Andargor theWise Disbelievers of Fate The SUdden Death Squad	Posted - 2006.11.08 14:06:00 - [47] Originally by: Akita T And for the Nth time, THIS is a much better alternative yet nobody even comments on it in here. For the love of all that is holy, stop spamming this at least twice in every thread! We read you the first time! - Got grief?
Zarch AlDain Friends of Everyone	Posted - 2006.11.08 14:07:00 - [48] Originally by: Patch86 On reflection, I don't see any negative points about the 0km to Gate- its what instas did already, and it levels th playing field. Plus you can still catch people on the other side of Gates, so its no huge problem. What is a big negative, though, is 0km to Stations. Atm, most people don't have full sets of station instas, from all locations- its giving people something new. Insta docking at stations makes you invulnerable, and theres no "other side" to catch people on. 0km to Stations will make empire wars impossible (in favour of Gankers, as they'll still pick their fights, while being immune to being hit back) and will make attacking anyone in a system with a station in (in low-sec / 0.0) pointless. I don't really like warp to 0km, I'd have preferred a different solution. But on the whole it doesn't change much from how it already is with BM Instas. Omnidirectional insta-warps to stations are trivial to make though - they are the easiest instas going. I know I have them for every station I ever visit (as if I am missing one when I dock I make one when undocking). Zarch AlDain
Maximillian Pele Caldari Jewel Enterprises	Posted - 2006.11.08 14:27:00 - [49] Basically most of the arguements against warp to 0 km are just arguments from authority, where people who believe that they know best tell off people they think don't. Which is funny because the only authority is CCP and if they want warp to 0 km that's what will occur. And Instas are not an exploit given the fact that the player guide tells you how to make them. They are a ingame mechanism. And how many times have the PvP brigade told us all to "use instas in low sec and 0.0". And If you create some crazy limit like no BMs with 150 km of gates or stations (sniping range is ok I note), then people will just create 200 km BMs and then warp to 200 km. The broad entry area into systems does have some appeal, but it is obviously far simpler for CCP to code warp to 0 km rather than create a whole new system. The warp to 0 km change seems to achieve the best fix: you keep the functionality of BMs, while removing the lag and strain on the data base. Given all the other changes and nerfs, it is impossible to say whether PvP will be better or worse post Kali 1. Warp to 0 km may well hurt sniping but benefit sentry tanking or belt hunting. Everyone I know is all for the changes - no more time spent copying 100s of BMs for each new corpie. A self-appointed hardcore elite may object, but so what. If the current system remains, then everyone will just keep their BMs and nothing changes, except for the fact that as new players obtain BMs the load on the servers increases. Of course, if you don't like the changes you can always cancel your accounts, give me your stuff, and go and play WoW (always wanted to say that). In times of doubt I ask myself "What would BoB do?", and then do the opposite.
Avon Caldari Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.11.08 15:26:00 - [50] Originally by: Jim McGregor It would have the added effect of lots of people not thinking Eve is fun anymore as well. Why do you think so many people pay 30 mill per region to get instas? Its because they cant stand the slow travelling. If you dont move around a lot, or play Eve all day long, then I can see why you wont mind spending all that time travelling. But for the ones who have jobs or family or whatever, and only play a few hours every day, they dont want to spend half that time sitting in front of gates or stations, moving slowly towards it. And the arguments against this change doesnt make sense to me. Even the people who DONT have instas today WILL get instas when they have been ganked a few times. Its cheap and easy to get them. So in my mind, im just comparing a Eve where most people have instas to a Eve where Warp to 0 is implemented, and I see only good things from Warp to 0, since it improves the cluster performance a lot. This is an interesting post. It begins by describing how instas are used to reduce the boredom of travel, and then goes on to reveal the true reason people depend on them - fear. Jim, let me offer you two hypothetical insta replacements: 1/ Your ship warps to any gate / station at 0km. Warp speeds are reduced 5 fold. Effectively travel times are increased overall, but you do not have to approach gates / stations. 2/ Your ship instantly warps from origin to destination, but that destination can be no closer than 15km from a gate. Travel times, especially for fast ships, are greatly decreased, but you vunerable whilst appoaching gates / stations. If those were the only two choices available, which would you pick? Which do you think the majority would pick? I am of the opinion that 1 would be more popular, indicating bypassing risk is more important to people than decreasing travel times. Also keep in mind that with the new HP changes on Sisi it is very hard to kill even a moderately tanked ship quickly, making the run to the gate much safer than it is currently. The Battleships is not and should not be a solo pwnmobile - Oveur

MiIes Naismith Amarr Guru Clan	Posted - 2006.11.08 15:28:00 - [51] Originally by: Avon As to the post about fast travel being good for all, I disagree. Ultimately it only serves to shrink Eve. Slower travel will not make people have to travel for longer, unless players can magically increase the amount of time they have to play. What it does is reduce how far they travel." dude get off the pipe if you have to go 12 jumps to get an item because thats where its for sale, then going slower will make it take longer, not reduce how far your going. think before typing. "That promotes smaller regional claims, and allows regional diveristy in Empire space." no it wont. people arnt gonna fall inoto your , well it takes too long well stay here idea. theyll just travel longer to go where they WANT to go. "Travel in Eve is boring because mostly it is jumping from empty system to empty system." ill remember that when im bored as hell going slow through empire with 200 peeps per avg hub system Vast tracts of space are sparsely populated because they are seen as nothing more than travel routes. umm or it could be the fact that thers no reason ie minerals, decent rats, stations, trade in the system eh if its empty i can see why no one lives there People fear changing travel times because they try and imagine how their current gamestyle would be affected. They fail to see that everyone's gamestyle would change. If you really needed to travel a long distance you would use an appropriately fast ship. and what do you do when you need to move 200 bs's to invade your future home. let em see you coming from 2 days out cause no one can get there fast? who wants to take 3 days to go from the top of the map to the bottom for a weekend of fun pvp in enemy space. With long distance travel being less common, traders would become more important, especially if other steps to Empire regionalisations were taken. (I am getting a horrible feeling of deja vu over a post I wrote a very, very long time ago). traders have never been that important and never will if people want something they either build it or buy it. people already trade between regions of empire and tbh you dont see much of a variation in most things in price and they did seperate the regions already with low sec on the shortest routes and in some cases all together u cant cross empires without running into it. what more do you want You could, for example, offer production bonuses to building Gallente ships in Gallente stations in Gallente Space (expand to mods like blasters, or whatever)." that might be nice and viable , but messing with travel will not make it any more or less viable. There is a chance here to enrich the flavour of Eve. I fear, however, that flavour is out of favour, and it is going to be a bowl of non-offensive bland soup for all. null I think its being changed just fine, most of your suggestions would make this a boring , takes forever to get anywhere, when can we have fun game.
mallina Caldari DeStInY.	Posted - 2006.11.08 15:36:00 - [52] Originally by: Ithildin Here's a question for you: what's the number 1 reason people leave EVE (terminate their accounts, that is)? the only thing im guessing you're trying to say is that people leave EVE because they lost their ship. Quite frankly, if they cant deal with that then im not so sure EVE is a game for them to begin with - and whats to say they wont come back? I did. ...and even if you allow them warp to 0 and such, whats to say they'll keep playing? my bet is they get bored within a few months and leave - And they'll be lots more of that I can assure you. ----------- Turbulance
Nahia Senne Fortunis Novum	Posted - 2006.11.08 15:37:00 - [53] Originally by: MiIes Naismith null I think its being changed just fine, most of your suggestions would make this a boring , takes forever to get anywhere, when can we have fun game. only thing that would change is... gasp.. people will fit for speed and fly smaller ships. now you wont be able to get your BS to the other side of the galaxy as if it was a frig. what a shocking change... ship mobility will actually begin to matter for once. Make ECCM viable! Give it 25% to scanning resolution!
Avon Caldari Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.11.08 15:38:00 - [54] Originally by: MiIes Naismith null I think its being changed just fine, most of your suggestions would make this a boring , takes forever to get anywhere, when can we have fun game. Forever to get anywhere? Explain to me your reason for travel. The Battleships is not and should not be a solo pwnmobile - Oveur
Akita T Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2006.11.08 15:40:00 - [55] Originally by: Andargor theWise Originally by: Akita T And for the Nth time, THIS is a much better alternative yet nobody even comments on it in here. For the love of all that is holy, stop spamming this at least twice in every thread! We read you the first time! If you "heard" it the first time, then why is this the first and only thing even remotely resembling a reply ? _____ -sig- This is my only char. These are my skills Always question everything, including yourself
Avon Caldari Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.11.08 15:52:00 - [56] Originally by: Akita T Originally by: Andargor theWise Originally by: Akita T And for the Nth time, THIS is a much better alternative yet nobody even comments on it in here. For the love of all that is holy, stop spamming this at least twice in every thread! We read you the first time! If you "heard" it the first time, then why is this the first and only thing even remotely resembling a reply ? I'm just guessing here, but maybe it is because even the fluffiest carebears in this thread are against what is basically a proposal to introduce consentual PvP? The Battleships is not and should not be a solo pwnmobile - Oveur
MiIes Naismith Amarr Guru Clan	Posted - 2006.11.08 16:01:00 - [57] Originally by: Nahia Senne Originally by: MiIes Naismith null I think its being changed just fine, most of your suggestions would make this a boring , takes forever to get anywhere, when can we have fun game. only thing that would change is... gasp.. people will fit for speed and fly smaller ships. now you wont be able to get your BS to the other side of the galaxy as if it was a frig. what a shocking change... ship mobility will actually begin to matter for once. your newbness is showing again. before they had bm's or before most figured em out, people jsut ahd a frig in the gang slingshot them by having the frig go 15 behind gate and warping to gang member GASP omg there never was any mobility variance in travel , just in time into warp.
Peppy LePew	Posted - 2006.11.08 16:09:00 - [58] Originally by: Nahia Senne Originally by: MiIes Naismith null I think its being changed just fine, most of your suggestions would make this a boring , takes forever to get anywhere, when can we have fun game. only thing that would change is... gasp.. people will fit for speed and fly smaller ships. now you wont be able to get your BS to the other side of the galaxy as if it was a frig. what a shocking change... ship mobility will actually begin to matter for once. You can't mine or haul in "smaller ships". And don't try to tell me people would find a way to get large, fragile ships through low-sec gate campers because even with escorts it would not be possible with current game mechanics. Even WITH a defending gang any hauler or barge will be popped before the attackers can be fended off, completely and utterly nullifying the only way we have to protect them. Instas are a necessity for this and various other reasons, and that is that. After all is said and done, wart-to-zero changes very little. As for warping to gates from different vectors to avoid 0.0 warp bubbles? OH NO. Guess we will need to put up 2 mediums instead of just one small. Or better yet, maybe a large if they do go live in Kali.
MiIes Naismith Amarr Guru Clan	Posted - 2006.11.08 16:12:00 - [59] Originally by: Avon Originally by: MiIes Naismith null I think its being changed just fine, most of your suggestions would make this a boring , takes forever to get anywhere, when can we have fun game. Forever to get anywhere? Explain to me your reason for travel. multiple purchases, fleet ops, gang hunts, mining ops, trip to agent, shopping, all things that travel being longer would just make more pointlessly tedious to complete. no other game ive played with as boring a method of travel. would want to say hey lets make them take LONGER to have fun. now if they were going to make us plot our own entrance and exits from warp via a 3d system map, and using calculations on fuel, engine ability and efficiency and a few skills to decide how far off our target we make it then ya id say screw warp to 0 but until something that isnt a xmas present tailored for pirates OR carebears comes along then this is a decent in between.
Harisdrop Gallente ClanKillers Dusk and Dawn	Posted - 2006.11.08 16:13:00 - [60] After this latest patch the 0km is still on the test server! You know the DEV's know we know. Originally by: Dwight Hammerhead . Just because Kali is already in testing. If CCP were actually concerned about what ppl think they would of opened it up for discussion.



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