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New 'Warp to 0km' option

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Adrian Kerensky Caldari STK Scientific Ascendant Frontier	Posted - 2006.11.08 00:35:00 - [1] I hope that default warp distance for auto pilot cannot be set to this option? i.e. that those lazy players who travel afk cannot insta everywhere whilst not even at their computers? Instas were bad enough in the first place, let alone the ability to do this afk. I would be extremely iritated if autopilot now takes you to 0km. Invulnerable afking shuttle/frigate/inty anyone?
Zhaine B e l l u m	Posted - 2006.11.08 00:38:00 - [2] I'm pretty sure on Kali right now it's warp to 15km for AutoPilot with a 0km option on manual flight. So this would seem to support your wishes. - - - - - - - - - - Quote: I don't even want a ship, ships are for carebears. Give me a fish bowl for my head (to keep space out) and smear me with lard, then armed with a toasting fork-
Musket Inverter	Posted - 2006.11.08 01:13:00 - [3] I wouldn't have an issue with the warp to 0 option, if ccp implimented a small mandatory "waiting" period to dock/jump at the object you just warped to. Maybe something like, "you must be within 2,500m of this object for 7 seconds in order to dock/jump"
LUGAL MOP'N'GLO	Posted - 2006.11.08 01:29:00 - [4] Originally by: Musket Inverter I wouldn't have an issue with the warp to 0 option, if ccp implimented a small mandatory "waiting" period to dock/jump at the object you just warped to. Maybe something like, "you must be within 2,500m of this object for 7 seconds in order to dock/jump" I fail to see the reasoning behind this suggestion. There is no point to making people wait for 7 seconds. Its not like you can jam someone to not enter a station or jump through the gate. You also will have a tough time popping anyone in 7 seconds, so your suggestion needs to be rethought. ~~~~~~~~~ I wish my lawn was EMO so it would cut itself. I approve of this message.
Musket Inverter	Posted - 2006.11.08 01:44:00 - [5] Edited by: Musket Inverter on 08/11/2006 01:44:37 Quote: I fail to see the reasoning behind this suggestion. There is no point to making people wait for 7 seconds. Its not like you can jam someone to not enter a station or jump through the gate. You also will have a tough time popping anyone in 7 seconds, so your suggestion needs to be rethought. I just threw out a random number, maybe have the time change per mass of the ship preforming the action? This idea also encourages bumping, which I'm not a total fan of. But I think adding warp to 0 as a vanilla feature is insane, unless another way to stop travelers is introduced I see no point in piracy without huge gate camps (focus fire ftw) or mass use of interdictors.
Hesod Adee	Posted - 2006.11.08 01:52:00 - [6] So if the autopilot can't warp to 0, whats to stop someone writing a macro that works like the autopilot, but makes eve think its a player flying the ship ? ----------------- My door is always open, just don't go in.
Sir Juri Caldari Caldari Provisions	Posted - 2006.11.08 01:57:00 - [7] Originally by: Hesod Adee So if the autopilot can't warp to 0, whats to stop someone writing a macro that works like the autopilot, but makes eve think its a player flying the ship ? **** need to make a new sig...
NenMaster	Posted - 2006.11.08 02:01:00 - [8] i take it most people who reply to this thread not wanting this option automated is a gate camper to some degree?
Thor Xian Vertigo One E.A.R.T.H. Federation	Posted - 2006.11.08 02:03:00 - [9] Originally by: NenMaster i take it most people who reply to this thread not wanting this option automated is a gate camper to some degree? Or just someone with a brain? ~Thor Xian, Material Defender What is your opinion?
Sir Juri Caldari Caldari Provisions	Posted - 2006.11.08 02:04:00 - [10] Originally by: NenMaster i take it most people who reply to this thread not wanting this option automated is a gate camper to some degree? Wrong, now label something else... wait I got a label for you, right here... stamps "NOOB"! in NenMaster's forehead *** need to make a new sig...
Erika Hulme 0utbreak	Posted - 2006.11.08 04:13:00 - [11] I still believe the best option would've been "warp to 10km" and no possibility of making bookmarks within 100km around gates and station...
LUGAL MOP'N'GLO	Posted - 2006.11.08 04:53:00 - [12] Originally by: Erika Hulme I still believe the best option would've been "warp to 10km" and no possibility of making bookmarks within 100km around gates and station... Omg... you want to try and travel around 0.0 warping to 10km without the ability to get closer? LOL have fun, I'm not down with that. ~~~~~~~~~ I wish my lawn was EMO so it would cut itself. I approve of this message.
Hesod Adee	Posted - 2006.11.08 05:05:00 - [13] Originally by: Sir Juri Originally by: Hesod Adee So if the autopilot can't warp to 0, whats to stop someone writing a macro that works like the autopilot, but makes eve think its a player flying the ship ? Look for the stargate in overview with the yellow symbol. If gate can't be found end macro. Click it. Click warp to. Wait till the numbers above the shield indicator appear then disappear. Find the yellow symbol again Click it Click activate gate Thats a simple set of instructions and shouldn't require much more than very simple image recognition to find the gate (find the square with x yellow pixels) or check if your in warp (look for x white pixels in this area), and this is assuming that you can't alter the eve client. Yes such a macro would probably only work with very specific overview settings (gates on, everything else off) at a specific screen res. So make a different macro for each screen res. It will also have trouble if you have multiple waypoints and are in a system with several of the gates yellow. ----------------- My door is always open, just don't go in.
LUGAL MOP'N'GLO	Posted - 2006.11.08 05:17:00 - [14] Originally by: Hesod Adee Originally by: Sir Juri Originally by: Hesod Adee So if the autopilot can't warp to 0, whats to stop someone writing a macro that works like the autopilot, but makes eve think its a player flying the ship ? Look for the stargate in overview with the yellow symbol. If gate can't be found end macro. Click it. Click warp to. Wait till the numbers above the shield indicator appear then disappear. Find the yellow symbol again Click it Click activate gate Thats a simple set of instructions and shouldn't require much more than very simple image recognition to find the gate (find the square with x yellow pixels) or check if your in warp (look for x white pixels in this area), and this is assuming that you can't alter the eve client. Yes such a macro would probably only work with very specific overview settings (gates on, everything else off) at a specific screen res. So make a different macro for each screen res. It will also have trouble if you have multiple waypoints and are in a system with several of the gates yellow. Altering the client/using macros is against the EULA. With that in mind, I don't think that any legitimate players would risk losing eve to a macro that simply made them jump a little bit faster. Macro'ers may use something like that, but my guess is that if they can do that, they surely can write a program that says open people/places, open this folder, then go down the line of bookmarks in series to use GtG instas and click jump after coming out of warp. I just fail to see a huge problem arising from Warp to 0 concering travel macros. ~~~~~~~~~ I wish my lawn was EMO so it would cut itself. I approve of this message.
Malev Volos Caldari Fortunate Few	Posted - 2006.11.08 06:48:00 - [15] I think that EVE is trying to combat lag ridden systems over bookmark copying since some BM copying did add to the lagtasticness of some systems. Warping to 0 is an option that is very viable I find it for travel since it would be removing the whole bookmark market (scams included), and if you want to protect your spce in 0.0, well they have made bubbles that will stop you from warping in at 0 on a gate, very simple, and low sec space is low sec space, no one actually controls it, no one can stop travel there, I think it might be a cheap way to travel thru but does remove some troublesome lag infestation in the end. In my idea pirates have as much right as I do to do what they do, and warping to 0 is just gonna take gate camps from them, but then again most pirates do snipe so they will not be scrambling anybody at a low sec gate (for those that don't know what low sec is its .1-.4 space) there fore warping in to 0 just takes their 15km slow boat targets... in which instance they can find a better way to supplement their diet. In either case I find everyone in game pays to play and each has a right to their way of life. (except macro's and griefers those are just... lets not go there.) In the long run it will mean less lag, but a change of life for pirating at the least. Its my sig.. if you don't like my sig, don't read it ^_^
Hesod Adee	Posted - 2006.11.08 07:22:00 - [16] Originally by: LUGAL MOP'N'GLO Altering the client/using macros is against the EULA. With that in mind, I don't think that any legitimate players would risk losing eve to a macro that simply made them jump a little bit faster. I know its against the EULA. My question is how can CCP catch the people using said macro ? All it is doing is feeding a series of mouse clicks to the eve client. Even if the client is modified, as long as that doesn't change the traffic between the client and server, CCP will be completely unable to tell those using the macro apart from those who aren't using it but simply have quick reaction times. ----------------- My door is always open, just don't go in.
LUGAL MOP'N'GLO	Posted - 2006.11.08 07:55:00 - [17] Originally by: Hesod Adee Originally by: LUGAL MOP'N'GLO Altering the client/using macros is against the EULA. With that in mind, I don't think that any legitimate players would risk losing eve to a macro that simply made them jump a little bit faster. Macro'ers may use something like that, but my guess is that if they can do that, they surely can write a program that says open people/places, open this folder, then go down the line of bookmarks in series to use GtG instas and click jump after coming out of warp. I just fail to see a huge problem arising from Warp to 0 concering travel macros. I know its against the EULA. My question is how can CCP catch the people using said macro ? All it is doing is feeding a series of mouse clicks to the eve client. Even if the client is modified, as long as that doesn't change the traffic between the client and server, CCP will be completely unable to tell those using the macro apart from those who aren't using it but simply have quick reaction times. If you're going to quote me, quote my whole argument as it is all relevant to the discussion. If anything I can offer this. Macros happen, they always will happen and there's really no way to stop them from happening. Everything in EVE is a series of mouse clicks, theoretically then, anything in EVE can be modified to use a macro. Sure there are certain activities in which a macro would not work very well, but it could be done. What I was saying... If you had read my whole post was that adding a warp to 0 function will not create some huge influx of warp to 0 macro users as you suggest it will. Why? Macro'ers and Farmers use Macros to generate profit (see isk). Sure, isk can be made by getting somewhere faster than someone else (see commodities trade). The trade of commodities is not set, and competition can arise. Take the status quo (macro miner). More isk can be made by sitting in a system and mining low-grade minerals. Therefore, there would be no incentive for said macro'ers to write a program that merely got them somewhere faster. Ohh but what you say? They are flying freighters, okay, lets have a look. Flying a freighter takes much more skill training than getting in a covetor. It also requires 37 times the amount of isk to get into a freighter than it does to get into a covetor (and thats just ship cost). Also note that while the macros are training to fly the covetor, they can mine in the lower level barges as well, making isk the whole time. Diagnose the problem you present and we find that you are infact making a mountain out of a molehill. ~~~~~~~~~ I wish my lawn was EMO so it would cut itself. I approve of this message.
Hesod Adee	Posted - 2006.11.08 08:52:00 - [18] For me traveling from the warp in point to the gate is roughly half the time I spend in system when autopiloting through it, and this is in a frigate with no AB. People who regularly make long journeys in high-sec (like traders) would have to make a choice between long journeys of manual flight, longer journeys while AFKing, or AFK journeys at the same speed as manual flight while using a completely undetectable macro. So tell me why they wouldn't use the macro ? ----------------- My door is always open, just don't go in.
Darcie Wray	Posted - 2006.11.08 09:02:00 - [19] Originally by: Musket Inverter I wouldn't have an issue with the warp to 0 option, if ccp implimented a small mandatory "waiting" period to dock/jump at the object you just warped to. Maybe something like, "you must be within 2,500m of this object for 7 seconds in order to dock/jump" Everyone that has instas right now dosnt get a 7 second wait to jump or dock, so why should we add that in just because we are replacing the need to spend hundreds of hours doing boring click work to copy instas with an equally beneficial in game system that removes all the copy time and bdatabase lag? If we needed a 7 second jump/dock wait time it would have been added to the game or suggested by tons of people long ago. That is an issue 100% seperate from instas etc.
Darcie Wray	Posted - 2006.11.08 09:05:00 - [20] Originally by: Hesod Adee So if the autopilot can't warp to 0, whats to stop someone writing a macro that works like the autopilot, but makes eve think its a player flying the ship ? Whats to stop a person from write a macro that uses instas to travel RIGHT NOW? As long as you have a good naming converntion for your bookmarks and make the macro with, you could do it. Whats to stop a person from making a macro right now that activates their MWD at the right time while they are afk autopiloting? Macros are not the issue here, and they have nothing to do with bookmarks etc. They are illegal and their use is bannable. They are a seperate issue entirely. And besides, its little or no easier to write a warp to 0 macro and it is to write a "use correct instas" macro.
Darcie Wray	Posted - 2006.11.08 09:12:00 - [21] Originally by: Hesod Adee So tell me why they wouldn't use the macro ? Tell me, how will their nifty macro respond when on the OTHER side of a gate a gang of war targets insta locks and warp scrambles his ship and begins shooting him? Log off? Too late. Anyways, if you can write a macro for warp to 0 with the new system you can write a macro NOW. Its not a problem now so why would it be a problem then?
Jack Brimstone Gallente The Scope	Posted - 2006.11.08 09:12:00 - [22] Originally by: Hesod Adee So if the autopilot can't warp to 0, whats to stop someone writing a macro that works like the autopilot, but makes eve think its a player flying the ship ? Tbh, If people are going to write macros in violation of the TOS -- and some are, then you can write a macro for pretty much anything, as seen by the recent rash of macro-npc'ers. -------------------------------------------------
Shanur	Posted - 2006.11.08 09:30:00 - [23] If i recall the dev Blog about countering instas correctly, two opinions were discussed by CCP: - Add ways to make sub warp travel faster, and block the use of instas completely. - Make instas obsolete by allowing warp to 0km for manual flight, and make autopilot still warp to 15km. It would seem they picked the second solution, which suggests they feel that using instant travel to get around long range gate camps is OK, but AFK flying should still take the time it does now.
Tremain	Posted - 2006.11.08 09:40:00 - [24] Fully support 0km for manual and 15km for auto pilot. The stupidity of people selling thousands of BM packs had gotten out of hand - there must be literally tens of thousands of characters out there with 10k+ BM's in their folder.
Arshes Nei Dark-Rising	Posted - 2006.11.08 09:41:00 - [25] Originally by: Musket Inverter I wouldn't have an issue with the warp to 0 option, if ccp implimented a small mandatory "waiting" period to dock/jump at the object you just warped to. Maybe something like, "you must be within 2,500m of this object for 7 seconds in order to dock/jump" This got already implemented, its called jump queues, takes a random amount of time to jump, and only at some gates which resembles rl traffic jams. Much more sophisticated than your idea.
Hesod Adee	Posted - 2006.11.08 10:05:00 - [26] Originally by: Darcie Wray Originally by: Hesod Adee So tell me why they wouldn't use the macro ? Tell me, how will their nifty macro respond when on the OTHER side of a gate a gang of war targets insta locks and warp scrambles his ship and begins shooting him? Log off? Too late. How can any of that be done to a player in an NPC corp flying through high-sec ? Besides that wouldn't change if the autopilot could warp to 0 anyway. Quote: Anyways, if you can write a macro for warp to 0 with the new system you can write a macro NOW. Its not a problem now so why would it be a problem then? To write a macro that uses instas you would eaither have to rename all the applicable instas before each trip so that the macro is looking for a similar name each time or at least move them into the fold the macro is looking at, or you would need to tell it which bookmarks to use. Apart from moving them into a specific location (ie the macro always uses the top BM in the top folder of the right click menu) you would need the macro to be able to read the text and know which BM text to look for (eaither by renaming them each time, or changing the script each time). This is a lot of work for every single trip you want to make as you need to manually mark which BMs to use, and if you stuff up you will have problems. So with the current insta setup, how do you make sure the insta uses the correct BM for each gate without having to manually set each system on route ? With the warp to 0, you set your destination and then the eve engine automatically marks the stargates yellow. This means that the time consuming part of marking which gates to use is done by the eve client. ----------------- My door is always open, just don't go in.
Darcie Wray	Posted - 2006.11.08 10:52:00 - [27] At the risk of inducing a mob of fanatical forumers to hate me and call for my banning from EVE, I know it is not too hard a task to make a macro that will use your insta jump bookmarks to give a macroed warp to 0 because I watched one of my college classmates make one. He used it one time only, on the test server. He then emailed the results to CCP to do with what they pleased. He sorted and named his bookmarks in such a way that he could use a combination of the games built autopilot with his macro program to give AFK insta travel to and through any system he had instas for. His macro (more like a program) could also insta dock at any station he wished, as long as he had instas for it. The macro even had a UI and was very simple to use for someone who has no knowledge of programming. As previous posters have said, almost everything in EVE can be done by using macros since its all just clicks, double clicks, right clicks, drags, drops, etc. Some things can be done easier than others, true, but I still fail to see why the warp to 0 option comming into the game is specifically "in danger" of creating a massive influx of travel macro users. If they make drones easy to control will a flock of forum whiners post that now drone users have an advantage because some high tech macro programmer can benfit from CCPs new ingenunity?
Darcie Wray	Posted - 2006.11.08 11:00:00 - [28] Originally by: Hesod Adee Tell me, how will their nifty macro respond when on the OTHER side of a gate a gang of war targets insta locks and warp scrambles his ship and begins shooting him? Log off? Too late. How can any of that be done to a player in an NPC corp flying through high-sec ? You know what I would do if I heard there was a ship in an NPC corp flying through high sec space warping to 0km while the player was using the bathrom and running some lame macro? Not care. But suicide gankers might. And again, a macro can already be made for that purpose, so I dont understand why warp to 0km is so horrible. Your making a mountain out of a... nothing.
Yoko Milan Phantom Squad iPOD Alliance	Posted - 2006.11.08 12:02:00 - [29] I love the jump to 0k idea. The only people I can see this hurting is the lowsec pirates, and the less organized 0.0 camps. for the lowsec areas this may make other players willing to travel out there more often cause it gives pirates prey a much more sporting chance. Pirates themselves may actually start having to chase after combat oriented players rather than those ever precious few mining characters that are just helpless to pirates. RL "My front door is Gate Camped"
Hesod Adee	Posted - 2006.11.08 22:35:00 - [30] Originally by: Darcie Wray At the risk of inducing a mob of fanatical forumers to hate me and call for my banning from EVE, I know it is not too hard a task to make a macro that will use your insta jump bookmarks to give a macroed warp to 0 because I watched one of my college classmates make one. He used it one time only, on the test server. He then emailed the results to CCP to do with what they pleased. He sorted and named his bookmarks in such a way that he could use a combination of the games built autopilot with his macro program to give AFK insta travel to and through any system he had instas for. His macro (more like a program) could also insta dock at any station he wished, as long as he had instas for it. The macro even had a UI and was very simple to use for someone who has no knowledge of programming. As previous posters have said, almost everything in EVE can be done by using macros since its all just clicks, double clicks, right clicks, drags, drops, etc. Some things can be done easier than others, true, but I still fail to see why the warp to 0 option comming into the game is specifically "in danger" of creating a massive influx of travel macro users. If they make drones easy to control will a flock of forum whiners post that now drone users have an advantage because some high tech macro programmer can benfit from CCPs new ingenunity? I have one question about this program. If you took a 20+ jump course, how much work would of been required to return to the starting system via a completely different route ? With the script I'm thinking of you just set the new course with waypoints and click start. Still I'm going to concede this point now. So lets consider this from a role playing perspective. Removing the autopilot completely would make sense. Disabling it in low sec would make sense if it made some warning about the area not being considered safe enough for the pilot to be able to leave the controls. Both those would also prevent AFK travel in low sec and they would make sense from a role players perspective. The thing I'm having trouble with is understanding that when the ship is controlled by you feeding it simple commands, why is the autopilot unable to give the ship all the commands the player can ? So can someone explain this from a role playing perspective ? Why is the autopilot, when its operating on the commands given by the pilot, unable to give the same instructions to the nav comp that the pilot can ? If we assume that the nav comp and autopilot are both in the same component, that makes even less sense to me. The only way I can explain it is major incompetence on the part of every single ship builder in the galaxy. ----------------- My door is always open, just don't go in.

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